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excelsior

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2012, 10:41:33 PM »

So you must've realized your speedy Hornet scenario lacked merit.

I wonder if your details somehow jeopardizes American interests.

Why does it have to be an "or" statement?   

I would have deployed the F18, blackhawks with Navy Seals and the AC-130.   The F18 could have provided the early eyes and air support.   The AC-130 could have provided the firepower and longevity above.   The Blackhawks could provide additional ground forces as needed.
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"The beginning of wisdom is a definition of terms." ~ Socrates

"No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude." ~ Karl Popper

"What vitiates entirely the socialists economic critique of capitalism is their failure to grasp the sovereignty of the consumers in the market economy." ~ Ludwig von Mises

“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”  ~ Socrates

excelsior

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2012, 10:50:14 PM »

October 20, 2012 3:40 PM

Could U.S. military have helped during Libya attack?


(CBS News) The closer we get to the election, the harder Republicans in Congress are pushing for answers to a big question: What really happened in the attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya last month that killed the U.S. Ambassador Christopher Stevens and three other Americans?

Some lawmakers are asking why U.S. military help from outside Libya didn't arrive as terrorists battered more than 30 Americans over the course of more than seven hours. The assault was launched by an armed mob of dozens that torched buildings and used rocket propelled grenades, mortars and AK-47 rifles.

CBS News has been told that, hours after the attack began, an unmanned Predator drone was sent over the U.S. mission in Benghazi, and that the drone and other reconnaissance aircraft apparently observed the final hours of the protracted battle.

The State Department, White House and Pentagon declined to say what military options were available. A White House official told CBS News that, at the start of the attack, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Martin Dempsey and Defense Secretary Leon Panetta "looked at available options, and the ones we exercised had our military forces arrive in less than 24 hours, well ahead of timelines laid out in established policies."

But it was too late to help the Americans in Benghazi. The ambassador and three others were dead.


Oh, I did not realize the policy was 24 hours.   I guess I was wrong to suggest an immediate military response to save american lives.  We needed to act within 4 hours to save Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods.   I am sure that their families will understand after they learn of this 24 hour policy.
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"The beginning of wisdom is a definition of terms." ~ Socrates

"No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude." ~ Karl Popper

"What vitiates entirely the socialists economic critique of capitalism is their failure to grasp the sovereignty of the consumers in the market economy." ~ Ludwig von Mises

“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”  ~ Socrates

Frenchfry

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2012, 10:57:42 PM »

Oh, I did not realize the policy was 24 hours.   I guess I was wrong to suggest an immediate military response to save american lives.  We needed to act within 4 hours to save Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods.   I am sure that their families will understand after they learn of this 24 hour policy.
I can see you're having reading comprehension difficulties...the article actually states "in less than 24 hours, well ahead of timelines laid out in established policies."
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This is what I see when I visit:

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This ban is not set to expire."

No emails, no warnings, no communication whatsoever...just that ban

May be what happened to the other libs as well.

I guess disabling the report to admin link only on the lib side was indicative of the slanted games they play.

Enjoy your spoon-fed Faux News type right-wing echo-chamber.

Edited to add:

This is the only way to answer some of the questions posed:

1) I did nothing to warrant the banishment, it's political.

2) It's the router that's blocked but considering all the nonsense right-wing games being played by those running the site...it's just not worth it to bypass the banishment block.

3) The moron stalkers from MT contemplating a visit will be considered a threat and can expect to have a bad day if they act upon those idiotic thoughts.

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excelsior

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2012, 11:09:15 PM »

I can see you're having reading comprehension difficulties...the article actually states "in less than 24 hours, well ahead of timelines laid out in established policies."

Great, then we had over four hours to save Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods. 

I guess Gary Berntsen may have been correct in his statement that "they stood and they watched and our people die". 
Leon Panetta could add while looking "at available options"
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 11:20:53 PM by excelsior »
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"The beginning of wisdom is a definition of terms." ~ Socrates

"No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude." ~ Karl Popper

"What vitiates entirely the socialists economic critique of capitalism is their failure to grasp the sovereignty of the consumers in the market economy." ~ Ludwig von Mises

“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”  ~ Socrates

Will Sweat

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2012, 11:13:49 PM »

I can't speak for an overseas base or what the current policy is today however when I was at Ft. Bragg and we were put on alert we had three hours to be "wheels up".  I don't know if it would have made a difference or not but I do believe something / anything should have been tried.  Asking for permission from the Lybian government should not have been a consideration when our soil was under attack.  In situations like this I kinda like an old sayings from the military, "it's better to ask forgiveness then to ask permission". 
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Frenchfry

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2012, 11:24:21 PM »

Great, then we had over four hours to save Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods. 

I guess Gary Berntsen may have been correct in his statement that "they stood and they watched and our people die". 
Leon Panetta could add while looking "at available options"
Where does it say the established policy was 28 hours?
And how did you arrive at the required time needed to save the victims?
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This is what I see when I visit:

"Sorry Frenchfry, you are banned from posting and sending personal messages on this forum.
This ban is not set to expire."

No emails, no warnings, no communication whatsoever...just that ban

May be what happened to the other libs as well.

I guess disabling the report to admin link only on the lib side was indicative of the slanted games they play.

Enjoy your spoon-fed Faux News type right-wing echo-chamber.

Edited to add:

This is the only way to answer some of the questions posed:

1) I did nothing to warrant the banishment, it's political.

2) It's the router that's blocked but considering all the nonsense right-wing games being played by those running the site...it's just not worth it to bypass the banishment block.

3) The moron stalkers from MT contemplating a visit will be considered a threat and can expect to have a bad day if they act upon those idiotic thoughts.

bumfunkegypt@live.com

Frenchfry

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2012, 11:28:01 PM »

Benghazi: Soledad O'Brien Calls Out Giuliani

"CNN host Soledad O'Brien and Rudy Giuliani clashed on Monday, with the the former New York City mayor accusing O'Brien of trying to blame George W. Bush for the attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya.

While interviewing Giuliani, O'Brien played a clip of former Bush adviser Matthew Dowd comparing Benghazi to the invasion of Iraq, arguing it was possible for the intelligence to be initially wrong on Benghazi, just as intelligence indicating Iraq had weapons of mass destruction turned out to be false.

"We're going to blame this on Bush, too?" Giuliani said.

"You've got to stop putting words in my mouth, sir," O'Brien retorted. "Let me finish, because every time I ask you a question, let me finish my point — every time I ask you a question, you like to push back like the question I'm asking you is unfair. It's not. I'm a journalist, you said some things. I'm trying to get accurate responses from you. You are welcome to answer."

"OK, here's the answer: It sounds like we're trying to blame Benghazi on Bush," Giuliani responded. "It's absurd to blame Benghazi on Bush. All [President Barack Obama] needs to do is answer a simple question: Did he know about the consulate attacks that took place before Sept. 11, 2012? There were two of them, one of which blew a hole in the embassy wall. Also, did he know the British consulate, which was basically next door, that they moved out because of the tremendous amount of risk to that consulate?"

The attack on the consulate in Benghazi killed four Americans, including the U.S. ambassador to Libya. Republicans have criticized Obama for an initially muddled response and Giuliani has suggested the administration was trying to cover up the attacks."

Benghazi: Soledad O'Brien Calls Out Giuliani
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This is what I see when I visit:

"Sorry Frenchfry, you are banned from posting and sending personal messages on this forum.
This ban is not set to expire."

No emails, no warnings, no communication whatsoever...just that ban

May be what happened to the other libs as well.

I guess disabling the report to admin link only on the lib side was indicative of the slanted games they play.

Enjoy your spoon-fed Faux News type right-wing echo-chamber.

Edited to add:

This is the only way to answer some of the questions posed:

1) I did nothing to warrant the banishment, it's political.

2) It's the router that's blocked but considering all the nonsense right-wing games being played by those running the site...it's just not worth it to bypass the banishment block.

3) The moron stalkers from MT contemplating a visit will be considered a threat and can expect to have a bad day if they act upon those idiotic thoughts.

bumfunkegypt@live.com

Will Sweat

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2012, 08:12:25 AM »

(CBS News) It was six weeks ago on Tuesday that terrorists attacked the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya.

Now, CBS News has obtained email alerts that were put out by the State Department as the attack unfolded. Four Americans were killed in the attack, including Ambassador Christopher Stevens.

These emails contain the earliest description so far of what happened at Benghazi the night of the attack.

At 4:05 p.m. Eastern time, on September 11, an alert from the State Department Operations Center was issued to a number government and intelligence agencies. Included were the White House Situation Room, the office of the Director of National Intelligence, and the FBI.

"US Diplomatic Mission in Benghazi Under Attack" -- "approximately 20 armed people fired shots; explosions have been heard as well. Ambassador Stevens, who is currently in Benghazi, and four COM (Chief of Mission/embassy) personnel are in the compound safe haven."


At 4:54 p.m., less than an hour later, another alert: "the firing... in Benghazi...has stopped...A response team is on site attempting to locate COM (embassy) personnel."

Then, at 6:07 p.m., State sent out another alert saying the embassy in Tripoli reported the Islamic military group "Ansar al-Sharia Claims Responsibilty for Benghazi Attack"... "on Facebook and Twitter and has called for an attack on Embassy Tripoli."

The emails are just a few in what are likely a large number traded throughout the night. They are likely to become part of the ongoing political debate over whether the administration attempted to mislead in saying the assault was an outgrowth of a protest, rather than a planned attack by terrorists.


Fourteen hours after the attack, President Obama sat down with Steve Kroft of "60 Minutes" for a previously scheduled interview and said he did not believe it was simply due to mob violence.

"You're right that this is not a situation that was -- exactly the same as what happened in Egypt and my suspicion is that there are folks involved in this who were looking to target Americans from the start," Mr. Obama said.

The White House and State Department declined comment on the email alerts. The House Oversight Committee told CBS News the information in the emails will be part of their ongoing investigation into the Benghazi attack.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57538689/emails-detail-unfolding-benghazi-attack-on-sept-11/?tag=AverageMixRelated

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Flanders

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2012, 08:28:11 AM »

State Department emails from day of Libya attack show Al Qaeda-tied group on radar

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/23/state-dept-emails-from-day-libya-attack-show-al-qaeda-tied-group-on-radar/#ixzz2ADdFKIR4


I think this is why Romney didn't mention it at the debate.  He's going to let it unfold in the news outlets where Obama has no clever retorts.
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Will Sweat

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2012, 08:34:39 AM »

State Department emails from day of Libya attack show Al Qaeda-tied group on radar

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/23/state-dept-emails-from-day-libya-attack-show-al-qaeda-tied-group-on-radar/#ixzz2ADdFKIR4


I think this is why Romney didn't mention it at the debate.  He's going to let it unfold in the news outlets where Obama has no clever retorts.


If that is the case then Gov. Romney needs a refresher in leadership.  If he believes someone acted inappropriately then why not address directly? 
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excelsior

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2012, 09:11:30 AM »

And how did you arrive at the required time needed to save the victims?

You have not done your homework on the timeline of the events in the Benghazi attack or you would not be asking this question.
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"The beginning of wisdom is a definition of terms." ~ Socrates

"No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude." ~ Karl Popper

"What vitiates entirely the socialists economic critique of capitalism is their failure to grasp the sovereignty of the consumers in the market economy." ~ Ludwig von Mises

“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”  ~ Socrates

Flanders

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2012, 09:26:41 AM »

If that is the case then Gov. Romney needs a refresher in leadership.  If he believes someone acted inappropriately then why not address directly? 

Because the story is unwraveling every day and not yet complete. And because it shouldn't be his responsibility to have to "call out" the POTUS during a debate when the media should be doing that.  Why? I think becuase it should be a genuine question the US people have and to use it as an attack during a debate would make it a partisan issue, clearly it is not.
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Will Sweat

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2012, 09:40:08 AM »

Because the story is unwraveling every day and not yet complete. And because it shouldn't be his responsibility to have to "call out" the POTUS during a debate when the media should be doing that.  Why? I think becuase it should be a genuine question the US people have and to use it as an attack during a debate would make it a partisan issue, clearly it is not.

Debates are all about "calling out" the opposing person on the pistons they hold and to offer an alternative to them. 

The media may or may not follow this story (they surely did not follow the killing of Brian Terry).  The average voter will only ask questions that have been "presented" to them through the media and while it should not be this it is. 

I get how this can be seen as a partisan issue but clearly the assassination of a US Ambassador and murder of three Americans ought not be that way. 

In this instance, if your belief is correct, I think this shows a real weakness on Gov. Romney's part.  If he believes the President did not respond correctly or mislead the American people regarding the timeline or responsibility for the events and he did not directly address it when given the chance, I find fault in that. 

It makes one wonder, would Gov. Romney, as President, say the hard, truthful things he has conviction on to world leaders or does he lack that courage?  If you are correct then Gov. Romney will have a chance, in the coming weeks, to explain his position.  If not, I will stand by mine. 
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Flanders

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2012, 09:48:31 AM »

Debates are all about "calling out" the opposing person on the pistons they hold and to offer an alternative to them. 

The media may or may not follow this story (they surely did not follow the killing of Brian Terry).  The average voter will only ask questions that have been "presented" to them through the media and while it should not be this it is. 

I get how this can be seen as a partisan issue but clearly the assassination of a US Ambassador and murder of three Americans ought not be that way. 

In this instance, if your belief is correct, I think this shows a real weakness on Gov. Romney's part.  If he believes the President did not respond correctly or mislead the American people regarding the timeline or responsibility for the events and he did not directly address it when given the chance, I find fault in that. 

It makes one wonder, would Gov. Romney, as President, say the hard, truthful things he has conviction on to world leaders or does he lack that courage?  If you are correct then Gov. Romney will have a chance, in the coming weeks, to explain his position.  If not, I will stand by mine. 

I agree, but I would find it hard to do such a thing on the stage with only 95% of the facts in.  Before I leveled an accusation, I'd make sure I was at least 99.9% sure.

But, I do fault Romney for at least not forcing some questions to be answered.  I believe the guy who asked the 3 pointed questions about the attack during the second debate got nothing close to an answer from Obama.  I would like to have seen Romney push for at least an answer.
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Professor H

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Re: US ambassador killed in consulate attack in Libya II
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2012, 08:38:48 AM »

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