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SidecarFlip

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2017, 12:19:17 PM »

Nice to see such positive comments on a Sunday morning!

Going back to Mav's post about the lack of cell phone service here's an article on how they're making use of satellite phones. 

 https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/09/29/satellite-phone-supply-running-out-all-head-puerto-rico/716968001/#


There are many places all around Florida and the Gulf in general that rent sat phones for the boater that wants to make the occasional 'offshore' run.

I wonder who is paying for air time, let me guess..  taxpayers.

You know anything about SAT phones BRD?  Curious...  I have one.  Not only are the expensive to purchase (about 800 bucks a toss for a basic model), the air time is very expensive as well and you pay by the second on air time.  I have one for emergencies in remote areas, only as an emergency phone.  Very expensive to use.

PR's don't care, you and I are footing the bill.

I feel bad they got trounced by a hurricane but, the poverty and squalor and corruption was there before the hurricane hit.  Are we supposed to rebuild PR into a tourist mecca or what?  You tell me.  I want to know your true opinion....
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BigRedDog

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2017, 03:31:23 PM »

I wonder who is paying for air time, let me guess..  taxpayers.

You know anything about SAT phones BRD?  Curious...  I have one.  Not only are the expensive to purchase (about 800 bucks a toss for a basic model), the air time is very expensive as well and you pay by the second on air time.  I have one for emergencies in remote areas, only as an emergency phone.  Very expensive to use.

PR's don't care, you and I are footing the bill.

I feel bad they got trounced by a hurricane but, the poverty and squalor and corruption was there before the hurricane hit.  Are we supposed to rebuild PR into a tourist mecca or what?  You tell me.  I want to know your true opinion....


The term 'expensive' is somewhat relative...   what some would consider expensive others would consider 'Trump' change.  I just did a quick Google search and found plans from $.15 to $3.00 a minute...   yes, i would consider $3 a minute expensive...  I considered $.50 a minute expensive back when I got my Motorola bag phone but somehow I always managed to pay the bill.  And yes I have more than a basic knowledge of Sat phones...   several people I work with use them either in place of or in addition to a cell phone.  They're more secure than a cell phone and they don't drop calls like a cell phone. 

And guess who pays for all their (and mine) minutes...

all of us taxpayers...  all our airtime plus the cost of the phone is 100% tax deductible!

I haven't spent much time in the last 25 years where I was without cell service other than the occasional trip to northern Michigan.  Now that we're looking at spending more time up there and taking our trip to Alaska then I will more than likely at some point make use of a sat phone.  We found we were very much at the fringe of Verizon's service where we were and although data service and phone service were limited much of the day it did seem like we could send and receive text messages with little interruption.

At this point I think you're getting the cart ahead of the horse to even be thinking about any consideration of rebuilding the island.  At this point I have no educated opinion whatsoever on the rebuilding of PR.  The intended topic of this thread is about some immediate humanitarian aid to US citizens suffering because they are without water, food or basic shelter and medical provisions.  Maybe down the road you can start a thread on the prospective rebuilding projects and we can by then have some actual costs analysis and costs vs. benefits and all that good stuff the government tends to analyze before they consider anything.

I guess I don't see where rebuilding would be anything new...   hell, we historically have tended to rebuild countries we defeat in war (think of the Confederate States and Germany and Germany again along with Japan and many, many others from WWII.   We even helped rebuild VietNam after we lost that war...   great business partners today though. You can even look at the $$$ we still give to many middle eastern countries we've been at war with...  again, nothing new.   Along that line and just off the top of my head I'm guessing we'll (we, the taxpayers) end up footing the bill for at least part of the rebuilding that historically has happened.

Let's see, according to Google PR is 3515 square miles...  Marquette County in the UP is about half that size at 1808 square miles...   Monroe County is 549 square miles.   I can certainly see the feds rebuilding an area the size of two Marquette counties or even 7 Monroe Counties.  I'll bet it's still more cost effective than blue2's plan to resettle them all in Detroit.
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BigRedDog

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2017, 03:33:34 PM »

I was not trying to be negative.  The island is a total disaster from what we see and hear. 
The infrastructer is demolished.  The country is coorupt, more so than others.  They are $70 billion in debt that they will never be able to pay.
It just doesnt seems to make sence to rebuild any of it.  Move the people to the US or neighboring islands.
About all i ever heard about being any good from the place is their rum.

Probably plenty of room for all of them right here in Deetroit ;) ;) ;)
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blue2

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2017, 04:51:08 PM »

Worse than Illinois?  Worse than Chicago?

That is pretty bad!

Considering it's just a little island community of 3 million people and they are $70 billion in debt. 
I'd say yes.
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Monroe Native

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2017, 05:04:08 PM »

Considering it's just a little island community of 3 million people and they are $70 billion in debt. 
I'd say yes.

I don't know much about Puerto Rico - but from what you have said I would guess they have an entitlement problem - and not enough rich people to tax.
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excelsior

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2017, 06:13:51 PM »


Perhaps this explains how the mayor of San Juan is able to find her way on the new channels but hasn't even bothered to participate in meetings with officials from the Federal Emergency Management Agency or other federal agencies.

‘Inept’ Puerto Rican government ‘riddled with corruption’: CEO

For the last 30 years, the Puerto Rican government has been completely inept at handling regular societal needs, so I just don’t see it functioning in a crisis like this one. Even before the hurricane hit, water and power systems were already broken. And our $118 billion debt crisis is a result of government corruption and mismanagement.

The governor Ricardo Rossello has little experience. He’s 36 and never really held a job and never dealt with a budget. His entire administration is totally inexperienced and they have no clue how to handle a crisis of this magnitude.

For instance, shortly after the hurricane hit, the government imposed a curfew from 6 pm to 6 am and then changed it. Now, it’s 7 pm to 5 am, and makes no sense. The curfew has prevented fuel trucks from transporting their loads. These trucks should have been allowed to run for 24 hours to address our needs, but they have been stalled, and so we have massive lines at gas stations and severe shortages of diesel at our hospitals and supermarkets.

I’m really tired of Puerto Rican government officials blaming the federal government for their woes and for not acting fast enough to help people on the island. Last week I had three federal agents in my office and I was so embarrassed; I went out of my way to apologize to them for the attitude of my government and what they have been saying about the US response. When the hurricane hit we had experts from FEMA from all over the US on the ground and I was really proud of their quick response. The first responders and FEMA have all been outstanding in this crisis, and should be supported.

I have 50 engineers that I have sent out pro bono to help local companies get back on their feet. This includes getting people gasoline and cash, and helping them connect to others that can assist with repairs without delays.

I won’t allow my people to work with the local government.

http://nypost.com/2017/09/30/inept-puerto-rican-government-riddled-with-corruption-ceo/
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Monroe Native

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2017, 06:49:51 PM »

It is ironic that Texas and Florida seemed to do okay....
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excelsior

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2017, 07:20:13 PM »


No power, no food, no water and no time to meet with FEMA, but the mayor of San Juan appears to have prioritized getting a t-shirt shop back on line.

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Monroe Native

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2017, 07:35:15 PM »

Does she take any responsibility for the response on herself?
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Maverick

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2017, 07:38:15 PM »

I don't know much about Puerto Rico - but from what you have said I would guess they have an entitlement problem - and not enough rich people to tax.
PR isn't another country !!  They are the United States just not a state. Their entitlement program is federal Welfare and every benefit that goes with it just like they were living in Detroit and yes the majority of citizens and politicians are a drain on the system. Their government is totally corrupt just like Detroit. They filed bankruptcy just like Detroit and if they get help from the federal government they will squander it just like Detroit. There is a scandal in the news just about every day just like Detroit and just like Detroit the citizens are so used to it that they actually feel entitled to their growing list of Free stuff.
A devastating hurricane, though very unfortunate for most individuals that have to deal with the reality of the situation, will unfortunately just turn into another opportunity to get free money and free stuff.
The whining that is being done by the government officials on  the island is just a part of how the system works. If they said " everything is going great" the politicians back home wouldn't send them as big of a gift basket that they most certainly are going to get.

A couple of years ago their was a movement to break away from the United States. Ask them how they feel about Big Brother now while they have their hands out.

What is the solution according to out stateside politicians ? Hold press conferences and send BIG checks.
Will there be any followup on how the money is spent ?  NO !!  Never has been why start now.


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Monroe Native

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2017, 07:47:54 PM »

PR isn't another country !!  They are the United States just not a state. Their entitlement program is federal Welfare and every benefit that goes with it just like they were living in Detroit and yes the majority of citizens and politicians are a drain on the system. Their government is totally corrupt just like Detroit. They filed bankruptcy just like Detroit and if they get help from the federal government they will squander it just like Detroit. There is a scandal in the news just about every day just like Detroit and just like Detroit the citizens are so used to it that they actually feel entitled to their growing list of Free stuff.
A devastating hurricane, though very unfortunate for most individuals that have to deal with the reality of the situation, will unfortunately just turn into another opportunity to get free money and free stuff.
The whining that is being done by the government officials on  the island is just a part of how the system works. If they said " everything is going great" the politicians back home wouldn't send them as big of a gift basket that they most certainly are going to get.

A couple of years ago their was a movement to break away from the United States. Ask them how they feel about Big Brother now while they have their hands out.

What is the solution according to out stateside politicians ? Hold press conferences and send BIG checks.
Will there be any followup on how the money is spent ?  NO !!  Never has been why start now.

Mav,

I am pretty sure that I know that Puerto Rico is a commonwealth of the United States.  I do appreciate you instructing me on the fact that they aren't their own country.

I know much of the insanity comes from Washington.

However - doesn't each STATE, or commonwealth in this case, administer their Welfare and Medicaid "entitlements?"

Can we agree that some do it better than others?

Also - if the politicians are corrupt - like Wayne County and Detroit, or Chicago, or Illinois,  or the list goes on, - I guess the people like them - because they continue to elect them?

I'm pretty sure they have elections?  I mean - they ARE part of the United States - right?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 07:58:11 PM by Monroe Native »
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You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.
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BigRedDog

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2017, 09:01:04 PM »

It is ironic that Texas and Florida seemed to do okay....

You're kind of comparing grapefruits to oranges there...

A large number of people evacuated Florida which I know for a fact because I talked to many of them and saw a lot more returning.  The return literally brought the roads to gridlock in north and central Florida and I can only imagine what it must have been like in South Florida. 

I assume it would have been a similar number of people that left in Texas although Texas is not on a peninsula (or an island) so I assume the leaving and returning created fewer issues. 

Florida and Texas both have plenty of Freeways (I even got a free pass on the Florida Turnpike by about 5 or 6 hours) which obviously make it easier on first responders to just 'drive' into the critical areas.  I have no idea how many freeways there are on PR but it is an island so any outside first responders are going to have to get there by flying or a boat or swimming! 

I would guess that both Florida and Texas would have had longer recovery time if they were on an island. 

If all these people that are so busy pointing fingers at each other would just get busy working on the 'problem' rather than doing all the finger pointing there probably wouldn't be any more problems ;) ;) ;)
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BigRedDog

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2017, 09:09:11 PM »

All I've been hearing and reading (including right here on MT) is how poor everyone is in PR but then I got to thinking that I know several people that have gone there to some pretty high end 'luxurious' hotels over the years...    it can't all be shacks!

So, i turned to my good friend Mr. Google:

https://www.fivestaralliance.com/luxury-hotels/55/bermuda-the-caribbean/puerto-rico

https://travel.usnews.com/Hotels/Puerto_Rico/

https://www.oyster.com/puerto-rico/roundups/best-beach-hotels-in-puerto-rico/

https://www.expedia.com/5Star-Puerto-Rico-Island-Hotels.s50-0-d180021.Travel-Guide-Filter-Hotels

Plenty more where those came from:

https://www.google.com/search?q=luxury+resorts+in+puerto+rico&rlz=1CAACAT_enUS737US737&oq=luxury+resorts+in+puerto+rico&aqs=chrome.0.69i59.10829j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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BigRedDog

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2017, 09:24:54 PM »

You're kind of comparing grapefruits to oranges there...

A large number of people evacuated Florida which I know for a fact because I talked to many of them and saw a lot more returning.  The return literally brought the roads to gridlock in north and central Florida and I can only imagine what it must have been like in South Florida. 

I assume it would have been a similar number of people that left in Texas although Texas is not on a peninsula (or an island) so I assume the leaving and returning created fewer issues. 

Florida and Texas both have plenty of Freeways (I even got a free pass on the Florida Turnpike by about 5 or 6 hours) which obviously make it easier on first responders to just 'drive' into the critical areas.  I have no idea how many freeways there are on PR but it is an island so any outside first responders are going to have to get there by flying or a boat or swimming! 

I would guess that both Florida and Texas would have had longer recovery time if they were on an island. 

If all these people that are so busy pointing fingers at each other would just get busy working on the 'problem' rather than doing all the finger pointing there probably wouldn't be any more problems ;) ;) ;)

The good news on PR is I would assume no one is going to freeze to death anytime soon.  But I'm not 100% sure of that either...  it can get cold enough to freeze in both Florida and Texas in the 'dead' of winter.

I keep hearing the phrase that the entire 'infrastructure' has been destroyed.  I can imagine there is a lot of damage but I'm curious how some infrastructure has been destroyed unless it was very poorly constructed int he first place.

In Florida I did see lots of trees down across roads and I did see the occasional 'sink hole' under a road so the pavement collapsed...   not many of those though.  Maybe the roads have been built 'too' close to the ocean...   do you want a nice ocean view or do you want to be able to drive on your roads after a hurricane? 

Water and sewer lines are what I consider infrastructure...   again, not sure how a hurricane destroys those.  I only observed one sewer backup (very close to a lift station without a backup generator) and the only broken water lines were all services going to homes that were badly damaged or destroyed.  Actually, there were a few of those right in our subdivision that were still running even when I left which would have been 10 days after the storm.  The water department must have decided it was easier to just treat more water than it was go go out and shut off the 'leakers'.

Cell phone towers, phone lines and power lines are all very susceptible to wind damage even right here in our own area where we get much lower wind speeds.  I have no idea how many electric utility service trucks and crew there are on PR but I'm sure it's not enough.  Florida and Texas it was pretty easy to just 'drive on down'...   I saw both DTE and Toledo Edison trucks on my trip...   along with literally hundreds of other companies...  some big and some small and from places I've never heard of.  You're going to need a pretty good sized boat and plenty of logistics to get the type of turnout that I witnessed in Florida...   especially with electric power line repair. 
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blue2

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Re: Aid lags in hurricane-torn Puerto Rico
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2017, 10:05:51 PM »

I'm still thinking it will be less costly to move the entire population and let PR finish rotting.  Why pour any money into a country that can't provide for its citizens??   Like someone said, there aren't enough rich people there to tax 
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