MonroeTalks.com

Categories => Politics and Government => Topic started by: John Kopke on December 16, 2010, 01:02:59 AM

Title: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on December 16, 2010, 01:02:59 AM
I look at the topics in the political forum. Most all are partisan bashing fluff. Distractions from the real reality. In my opinion, other than Smash's" Gold Silver topic, their is nothing we need to be discussing other than the looming financial collapse of the country. Most didn't see the looming financial meltdown of 2008,
yet today, they ignore a looming dollar financial meltdown that is totally predictable.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: PXaiver on December 16, 2010, 10:20:04 AM
So you're talking about when the gold bubble bursts?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on December 16, 2010, 10:28:54 AM
So you're talking about when the gold bubble bursts?


Shaggy it's not a gold bubble, it's a dollar bubble.

With QE2 we monetized what? 600 million dollars or so of debt? When you monetize debt the result is inflation caused by the influx of currency in the market.

This video gives a good explaination of how it works and gives some ways to avoid the potential outcomes.

It is lengthy, but, worth a look.

Meltup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb1n1X0Oqdw#ws)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Collegekid on December 16, 2010, 10:33:18 AM
So you deny that there is a gold bubble? That's either stupidity or naivety.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on December 16, 2010, 11:18:49 AM
So you deny that there is a gold bubble? That's either stupidity or naivety.
What is gold purchased with, bubblegum?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on December 16, 2010, 11:32:41 AM
What is gold purchased with, bubblegum?

If it is a dollar "bubble" that means that the cost of gold is going to skyrocket, which is what you are predicting, but others are speculating that the cost of gold is going to fall, which would be a gold "bubble".

Only time will tell which of these scenerios is going to come about.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Brian Beneteau on December 16, 2010, 01:17:34 PM
If it is a dollar "bubble" that means that the cost of gold is going to skyrocket, which is what you are predicting, but others are speculating that the cost of gold is going to fall, which would be a gold "bubble".

Only time will tell which of these scenerios is going to come about.

I think you will see both if you wait long enough. Gold will skyrocket, since it already has, and will continue on it's upward path for so long as the dollar loses strength. Should the US economy recover, you will see those heavily invested in gold as a hedge against inflation bail out and jump back into stocks, thus resulting in a steep downward trend in gold. It could be possible that a gold backed world currency is used, thus sending the value of the US dollar further down to nothing. It is interesting hearing all of the conspiracies about the controlling of the prices of silver and gold. Many good articles are available at www.kitco.com (http://www.kitco.com)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on December 16, 2010, 01:44:55 PM
If it is a dollar "bubble" that means that the cost of gold is going to skyrocket, which is what you are predicting, but others are speculating that the cost of gold is going to fall, which would be a gold "bubble".

Only time will tell which of these scenerios is going to come about.

The last thing I want to do is argue semantics.

While I agree with you 100% one situation will play itself out i think the dollar is the one more likely to happen.
As I've said before; I prefer to look at history and trends. Both of them, with the support of those that know a heck of a lot more about this than I do, show that at the very least we are in for a whole lot of trouble.

I will say this, and again I'm repeating myself. Gold is merely reflecting and responding to the dollar and the actions of market as driven by the FED and the fiscal decisions of the government.

When the dollar bubble pops gold will still have value in and of itself as a commodity or a currency. The dollar, on the other hand will be useful for wallpaper or burning for heat.
That is why I say it is a dollar, not a gold bubble.

There is a video available that explains it way better than I could. If you are interested, just say the word and I will post up a link.

I also agree with you about kitco. I have been keenly watching the speed of the private and government mines ramping up for record rates of production. I don't think this is solely driven by monetary interests! With private mints having trouble getting silver and gold on the open market, and demand for private currencies going up, someone has to get it out of the ground!

I love the fact people are quickly buying up private currencies. It lays a frame work, in the hands of the people, a ready and capable currency to replace the dollar in the event of it's demise. As long as we can prevent actions by the government similar to those taken by FDR in the 30's.
If the government does try to ban the sale or use of gold or silver again, or, attempt to sieze it, the people will know the jig is up!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: old salt on December 16, 2010, 01:56:24 PM
Wouldn't the EU and the euro collapse before the dollar?  It's already on shaky ground (not that the dollar is on terra firma).
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: PXaiver on December 16, 2010, 02:22:41 PM
As I have said before, I place no value in gold.  That means if a currency is backed by gold I feel it is worthless.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Brian Beneteau on December 16, 2010, 02:48:05 PM
As I have said before, I place no value in gold.  That means if a currency is backed by gold I feel it is worthless.
I have to disagree with you on that one. I feel a currency backed by gold (which is accepted worldwide) is much better than currency that is "backed by the full faith and credit of the United States."
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on December 16, 2010, 03:22:04 PM
Wouldn't the EU and the euro collapse before the dollar?  It's already on shaky ground (not that the dollar is on terra firma).
I see it just the opposite. The dollar sinking the euro.
The IMF is already working their voodoo in the EU. They are quickly setting up their banana republics in the EU at record pace.
Europe will be led kicking and screaming into the New World Financial Order ahead of us.
They(the IMF) are already getting austerity agreements out of the governments of the smaller EU states and granting them bailouts. The interest rates are such that they will never get repaid. Spain and Portugal are weak in the knees and Belgium just had their bonds lowered by S&P today!
Welcome to the EU Plantation!
If Germany pulls the plug or gets sick of paying for the bailout of the smaller economies of the EU things are going to get real dicey.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: PXaiver on December 16, 2010, 03:41:49 PM
I have to disagree with you on that one. I feel a currency backed by gold (which is accepted worldwide) is much better than currency that is "backed by the full faith and credit of the United States."


Well I hope you don't try to buy anything from me with a gold backed currency.  To me it's nothing than a worthless ugly metal.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Brian Beneteau on December 16, 2010, 04:26:40 PM

Well I hope you don't try to buy anything from me with a gold backed currency.  To me it's nothing than a worthless ugly metal.
What are you selling? I may want to get rid of some money and keep gold. In fact, if you come up with some gold I'll give you cash for it. ;)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: BigRedDog on December 17, 2010, 08:01:11 AM
Now you can buy your gold from an ATM like machine :-\ :-\ :-\


Quote
BOCA RATON, Fla. (AP) -- Shoppers who are looking for something sparkly to put under the Christmas tree can skip the jewelry and go straight to the source: an ATM that dispenses shiny 24-carat gold bars and coins.

A German company planned to install the machine Friday at an upscale mall in Boca Raton, a South Florida paradise of palm trees, pink buildings and wealthy retirees.

Thomas Geissler, CEO of Ex Oriente Lux and inventor of the Gold To Go machines, says the majority of buyers will be walk-ups enamored by the novelty. But he says they're also convenient for more serious investors looking to bypass the hassle of buying gold at pawn shops and over the Internet.


Much more at:  http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GOLD_ATM?SITE=OHTOL&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GOLD_ATM?SITE=OHTOL&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Brian Beneteau on December 17, 2010, 08:48:12 AM
Now you can buy your gold from an ATM like machine :-\ :-\ :-\


Much more at:  [url]http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GOLD_ATM?SITE=OHTOL&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT[/url] ([url]http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GOLD_ATM?SITE=OHTOL&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT[/url])

This company will be under investigation by the feds due to the abundance of cash that will be put through the machine. Many sources of questionable income, especially in Florida, will seize the opportunity to launder their cash through this machine. With Anti Money Laundering laws in the Patriot Act, and with laws in place for compliance with these laws, this ATM for gold will be shut down unless Debit/Credit cards are the sole source for purchase. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on December 17, 2010, 09:46:30 PM
Well folks look at the Cowardly GOP topic and you'll see a prime example of the progressive thinking from many that is going to most likely take this country down. Reality, forget it. We're beyond broke, but we need to give money, we don't have to, 1st responders and then we'll give money to the childen of ..............

Well folks, we're going down a path to oblivion. When the dollar tanks,
and it will if we don't get real, we're going to be see $ 8.00 dollar loaves
of bread, $ 12.00 per gallon of gas  etc. etc., or worse.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on December 17, 2010, 10:08:51 PM
The Public Sector and My Grandchildren

Jack is 6 1/2, and Frances Anne just turned 4. I will not burden you with tiresome anecdotes about how funny, quick and special they are. Just take my word for it: They are.

Like all grandparents, I want them to grow up safe and healthy, which got me to thinking about a few of the things we collectively, as communities and as a country, do to make that possible.

The air they breathe and the water they drink are cleaner, safer and healthier because of federal laws than they were when their grandparents grew up. The cars they ride in, because of government regulations and public law, which mandates seat belts and child safety seats, are a lot less dangerous.

They will get an excellent education at superior public schools in a county where 45 percent of the residents are African-American, Latino or Asian. The schools are integrated because their federal government ended racial segregation and guaranteed civil rights, including the right of all to public accommodations, to vote and to buy property.

Jack and Frances Anne have fun playing on the public playground. They expand their imaginations at the public library. Someday they will visit the national parks and swim on a national seashore. They are fascinated by the Internet, the original version of which was designed in the 1960s (no, not by Al Gore) at the Department of Defense.

If either child falls sick and the family doctor prescribes a medicine, we know — because of the Food and Drug Administration — that the prescribed drug will be safe. Thanks to the Family and Medical Leave law, a parent, if necessary, can take time off to nurse a sick child/

When they come to visit us, we know — because of the labels required by law — the exact nutritional value and calorie count of the food we feed them.


We also know, because of legal requirements, that the food we buy for them at the market is safe and has been federally inspected.
Because public law insists, we know that the buildings and the workplace conditions where their parents earn a living are neither unsafe nor unhealthy — and that any creative product either of them authors will be protected by public law, copyright and the courts. We are confident that in the workplace they and their co-workers, because of federal law, will never endure discrimination based on gender, religion, national origin or disability.

Any airplane the family flies in will have to first meet federally imposed safety standards and will be guided from its takeoff through its flight and to its landing by professional air traffic controllers who are federal employees. Relying upon more than 140 million weather readings from satellites, ships, aircraft, land sources and balloons, the National Weather Bureau is able to alert us to sudden storms or worse.

Our public safety is maintained by local police, prosecutors and court system, as well as by state and federal officers. Our national safety is protected by the men and women of the United States armed forces.

The preceding is just a terribly abbreviated sampling of what government at all levels does every day to help make the lives of our children and grandchildren, of all of us, healthier, happier, safer and more prosperous. Everyone seems to know firsthand the shortcomings of government — the too frequent indifference, even incompetence or arrogance — but, especially at this special time of the year, we would do well to remember, even to appreciate, what government does do for those whom we love.

To find out more about Mark Shields and read his past columns, visit the Creators Syndicate web page at www.creators.com (http://www.creators.com).

DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS.COM

COPYRIGHT 2010 MARK SHIELDS
http://www.creators.com/opinion/mark-shields/the-public-sector-and-my-grandchildren.html (http://www.creators.com/opinion/mark-shields/the-public-sector-and-my-grandchildren.html)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on December 17, 2010, 10:17:37 PM
Well Duck, read your post. Are you in the right topic? I'm confused.
Is there a point in there somewhere, anywhere, that makes any sense in this topic?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on December 17, 2010, 10:36:38 PM
Why, you keep crying that we spend too much and what about the children....
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on December 17, 2010, 10:37:40 PM
Republicans Say One Thing In Washington And Something Else At Home:

Senate Republicans took a lot of heat yesterday for stuffing a bill with millions of their own earmarks, then trying to claim they oppose earmarks. but Republicans’ earmark hypocrisy is even starker when you compare what they are saying in Washington, DC to what they are saying to their constituents back home.

In D.C., DeMint Decries Earmarks: “Americans want Congress to shut down the earmark favor factory, and next week I believe House and Senate Republicans will unite to stop pork barrel spending…Instead of spending time chasing money for pet projects, lawmakers will be able to focus on balancing the budget, reforming the tax code and repealing the costly health care takeover.” [The Hill, 11/9/10]

…But In South Carolina, DeMint Defends Earmarks: “U.S. Sen. Jim DeMint said fellow senators are ‘playing politics’ in blocking his colleague's efforts to secure a $400,000 earmark to study deepening Charleston Harbor.” [Herald Online, 9/11/10]

In D.C. , Cornyn Poses As An Anti-Earmark Champion: “I believe the public discontent can be accurately sourced, and Congressional earmarking process has become a symbol for wasteful and undisciplined federal spending. Earlier this month, I joined a bipartisan group calling for a one year moratorium on all earmarks. That effort failed. We missed a major opportunity to show we are serious about tightening our Congressional belts during a difficult economic period.” [Everyone Loses in the Earmark Game, 3/31/08]

… But In Texas, Cornyn Downplays Significance Of His Earmark Opposition, Emphasizes That It’s Only Temporary: Cornyn told the Dallas Morning News that the earmark ban, “’basically is a timeout while we reassess this whole earmarking process, which has been in some instances abused,’ said Texas Sen. John Cornyn, a member of the GOP leadership… Cornyn, like some other moratorium supporters, said the policy should not and won't last indefinitely but agreed that for now, ‘it will have an impact on Texas, just as it will have an impact on the rest of the country.’” [Dallas Morning News, 11/26/10]?

… And Requests Millions In Earmarks For FY2011. [Senator Cornyn FY2011 Appropriations Requests]

In D.C., Thune Lambasts Earmarks: “The bill is loaded up with pork projects, and it shouldn't get a vote. The bill was crafted behind closed doors, and it hasn't gone through the proper oversight or the proper channels.” [Press Conference, 12/15/10]

In South Dakota, Thune Defends Pet Projects: “He has backed similar moratoriums in the past but the proposed 2011 spending bills Congress will consider in the coming weeks include almost 30 Thune-requested projects, such as money for highway projects, water systems and safety programs on Indian reservations… ‘If you include [South Dakota] projects like Lewis & Clark, you end up costing taxpayers much more in inflation and lost economic opportunities,’ Larson said Monday. ‘We applaud responsible efforts to rein in earmark spending, but if that effort wrongly includes authorized projects like Lewis & Clark, it's counterproductive.’ Thune agrees. ‘There are ways that you can do this that really legitimize Congress spending money, and one is authorized projects that went through the normal process and passed the House and the Senate,’ he said last week. ‘To me, that's a very different thing than an earmark that gets dropped into an appropriations bill in a conference committee that hasn't passed the House and the Senate.’” [Argus Leader, 11/16/10]
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/republican-earmark-hypocrisy (http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/republican-earmark-hypocrisy)
But silence on that because it is right wing pork...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on December 17, 2010, 10:48:52 PM
Why, you keep crying that we spend too much and what about the children....

Duck:
Thought I brought this up before. You don't care about the kids. Spend, spend, spend don't worry about a thing. The kids will pick up the tab. Yet it is worse than that. Folks that have sacificed to put
money away for decades to secure their senior years could see their savings disappear when the dollar tanks. Duck doesn't care, spend spend spend .........
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on December 17, 2010, 10:52:49 PM
Reality, forget it. We're beyond broke,
But we can afford to give tax breaks to the ultra rich that could have paid for those responders 10 times over.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on December 17, 2010, 11:04:41 PM
But we can afford to give tax breaks to the ultra rich that could have paid for those responders 10 times over.

FB:
I agree not extending the exisiting tax rates to the wealthy probably could have paid for the responders, and then some.

Yet I have a problem with the word "give" you used. By extending the existing tax rates what did the government "give" the wealthy?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on December 17, 2010, 11:35:27 PM
Brian Beneteau and Fred Muny say?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Brian Beneteau on December 17, 2010, 11:36:43 PM
If you want to tax fairly, put a tax on shares of stock traded of only 1 cent per share. Today over 1 billion shares traded hands. Do the math. $10,000,000 per day. Most would find that the 100-500 shares they may trade in a day or week would not affect them that much. The big traders, the ultra rich or corporations, would foot a great deal of the bill.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on December 17, 2010, 11:53:35 PM
If you want to tax fairly, put a tax on shares of stock traded of only 1 cent per share. Today over 1 billion shares traded hands. Do the math. $10,000,000 per day. Most would find that the 100-500 shares they may trade in a day or week would not affect them that much. The big traders, the ultra rich or corporations, would foot a great deal of the bill.

Well Brian, your younger than me, and I'm of the opinion you're a pretty sharp cookie. Where do think the country is headed? Am I out there, a nutty old koot, a conspiracy type person deluded in my opinion that the country is facing financial peril? 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Brian Beneteau on December 18, 2010, 12:39:59 AM
Well Brian, your younger than me, and I'm of the opinion you're a pretty sharp cookie. Where do think the country is headed? Am I out there, a nutty old koot, a conspiracy type person deluded in my opinion that the country is facing financial peril?
My opinion is the direction we are headed is the wrong direction. It would be impossible for me to sit and write about my opinions of what has transpired to get us to the point where we currently are. I have problems with the way money was given to corporations to "fix" the country's problems. Banks were given bailouts, and then because they fixed their problems, they decided they would firm up their lending regulations, slowing any growth due to difficulty in securing loans.
The healthcare plan has too many regulations in place to further invade businesses, all the while providing for more government jobs to supervise and audit the new regulations. All will be simply another cost to taxpayers.
If you want to talk about the monetary system, all you have to do is look to the prices that precious metals have climbed due to the lack of faith there is in the dollar. The government simply prints up what, $600 million and this is to have no effect? Is there a reason that the Canadian dollar, which was worth less than half of the US dollar only seven or eight years ago, is now worth more? Did Canada all of a sudden surpass us or have we done something wrong?
We all have our ideas as to what is a bubble, and what is being manipulated or some big government conspiracy being put in place for whatever reasons our imaginations can come up with. The real truth as I see it lies with decisions by our government officials which have allowed our jobs to be sent out of our country, all the while allowing foreign products to be imported at record highs and with no realistic tariffs. Our country has been sold out. China owns nearly 2 trillion US dollars, and what are they doing? They are now allowing their people to own gold. Given enough time, they will no longer have this tie to the US and will have all of their US dollars converted to a worldly accepted monetary instrument, gold. What will we have? Useless paper, hyper inflation, no jobs, lack of credit, and not a lot in the future to look forward to. Until the boys in Washington decide to truly fix our economy by forcing industry back into our own country, we are headed further down the path of foreclosures.
Again this is my opinion, and everyone's opinions will vary. Hopefully no one will attack me for my opinion, and will offer theirs, since we are all in this together. It is unfortunate that our governors, congressmen, senators and representatives are not able to fight for our best interests. It is also unfortunate that regardless of what happens, due to our partisan politics, no one is able to look past what got us here and work towards a solution. Instead they want to point a finger at their predecessor. I have a finger to point back at em if they want finger pointing.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on December 18, 2010, 12:42:42 AM
This is for the folks, not the Ducks or FB's. The trillion dollar plus deficits the government is running up are not ho hum we'll work through it, we're America. The math doesn't lie.  The time will come,
in the not too distant future, that the Chinese and others will no longer be willing to finance our debt. Already the Federal Reserve is
creating, out of thin air, dollars to finance the debt. This debases the
value of the dollar. China and Russia recently decided to conduct trade
between their countries based on the Chinese Yuan, not the dollar.
If the dollar collapes all hell will break loose. Riots in the streets type stuff. 

This is very, very, very serious. Educate yourself on monetary policy. No time to lose.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on December 18, 2010, 12:58:23 AM
It is kind of curious that otherwise reasonably intelligent folks believe in the law of gravity but refuse to believe the laws of monetary policy and finance don't apply because we are...America?

Really?

How is it the rest of the world has a clue and most here don't?

Think it might have something to do with that Fed. Dept. of ED thing?

You know that math thing isn't our strong suit.

Seen the latest stats on American math scores?

Go figger.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on December 18, 2010, 01:10:57 AM
My opinion is the direction we are headed is the wrong direction. It would be impossible for me to sit and write about my opinions of what has transpired to get us to the point where we currently are. I have problems with the way money was given to corporations to "fix" the country's problems. Banks were given bailouts, and then because they fixed their problems, they decided they would firm up their lending regulations, slowing any growth due to difficulty in securing loans.
The healthcare plan has too many regulations in place to further invade businesses, all the while providing for more government jobs to supervise and audit the new regulations. All will be simply another cost to taxpayers.
If you want to talk about the monetary system, all you have to do is look to the prices that precious metals have climbed due to the lack of faith there is in the dollar. The government simply prints up what, $600 million and this is to have no effect? Is there a reason that the Canadian dollar, which was worth less than half of the US dollar only seven or eight years ago, is now worth more? Did Canada all of a sudden surpass us or have we done something wrong?
We all have our ideas as to what is a bubble, and what is being manipulated or some big government conspiracy being put in place for whatever reasons our imaginations can come up with. The real truth as I see it lies with decisions by our government officials which have allowed our jobs to be sent out of our country, all the while allowing foreign products to be imported at record highs and with no realistic tariffs. Our country has been sold out. China owns nearly 2 trillion US dollars, and what are they doing? They are now allowing their people to own gold. Given enough time, they will no longer have this tie to the US and will have all of their US dollars converted to a worldly accepted monetary instrument, gold. What will we have? Useless paper, hyper inflation, no jobs, lack of credit, and not a lot in the future to look forward to. Until the boys in Washington decide to truly fix our economy by forcing industry back into our own country, we are headed further down the path of foreclosures.
Again this is my opinion, and everyone's opinions will vary. Hopefully no one will attack me for my opinion, and will offer theirs, since we are all in this together. It is unfortunate that our governors, congressmen, senators and representatives are not able to fight for our best interests. It is also unfortunate that regardless of what happens, due to our partisan politics, no one is able to look past what got us here and work towards a solution. Instead they want to point a finger at their predecessor. I have a finger to point back at em if they want finger pointing.

Well Brian, in spite of the lenth of your post, I'm of  the impression you've hardly got good started. I know your family business sells gold, but your ideas for what is best for the country doesn't necessarily   coincide with boosting your sales of gold. What's wrong with you?
Have you forgotten greed?
 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on December 18, 2010, 08:41:35 AM
My opinion is the direction we are headed is the wrong direction. It would be impossible for me to sit and write about my opinions of what has transpired to get us to the point where we currently are. I have problems with the way money was given to corporations to "fix" the country's problems. Banks were given bailouts, and then because they fixed their problems, they decided they would firm up their lending regulations, slowing any growth due to difficulty in securing loans.
The healthcare plan has too many regulations in place to further invade businesses, all the while providing for more government jobs to supervise and audit the new regulations. All will be simply another cost to taxpayers.
If you want to talk about the monetary system, all you have to do is look to the prices that precious metals have climbed due to the lack of faith there is in the dollar. The government simply prints up what, $600 million and this is to have no effect? Is there a reason that the Canadian dollar, which was worth less than half of the US dollar only seven or eight years ago, is now worth more? Did Canada all of a sudden surpass us or have we done something wrong?
We all have our ideas as to what is a bubble, and what is being manipulated or some big government conspiracy being put in place for whatever reasons our imaginations can come up with. The real truth as I see it lies with decisions by our government officials which have allowed our jobs to be sent out of our country, all the while allowing foreign products to be imported at record highs and with no realistic tariffs. Our country has been sold out. China owns nearly 2 trillion US dollars, and what are they doing? They are now allowing their people to own gold. Given enough time, they will no longer have this tie to the US and will have all of their US dollars converted to a worldly accepted monetary instrument, gold. What will we have? Useless paper, hyper inflation, no jobs, lack of credit, and not a lot in the future to look forward to. Until the boys in Washington decide to truly fix our economy by forcing industry back into our own country, we are headed further down the path of foreclosures.
Again this is my opinion, and everyone's opinions will vary. Hopefully no one will attack me for my opinion, and will offer theirs, since we are all in this together. It is unfortunate that our governors, congressmen, senators and representatives are not able to fight for our best interests. It is also unfortunate that regardless of what happens, due to our partisan politics, no one is able to look past what got us here and work towards a solution. Instead they want to point a finger at their predecessor. I have a finger to point back at em if they want finger pointing.

And many in this country laughed at H. Ross Perot!   8*

You are right, Brian......therein lies the true root cause of our mess!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Brian Beneteau on December 18, 2010, 09:15:56 AM
And many in this country laughed at H. Ross Perot!   8*

You are right, Brian......therein lies the true root cause of our mess!
I would be interested to see how many voted for Perot like I did. We don't need career politicians running the business which is the US, we need a person who will actually listen to proven business leaders who know how to do the right thing, not what their supporters expect them to do.
As for Kopke's question about greed and gold, I can only hear Gordon Gecko's speech ring loudly through my ears, "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind and greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the U.S.A."
But truthfully if gold continues to rise as our currency is devalued to a point of being worthless, the country is in bad shape. As I tell those who invest in gold and silver with me, I hope you do well for your sake, but I hope you lose money on your investment for the country's sake.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on December 18, 2010, 09:31:11 AM
I voted for him......twice if memory serves me correctly! 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on December 18, 2010, 10:06:32 AM
I would be interested to see how many voted for Perot like I did. We don't need career politicians running the business which is the US, we need a person who will actually listen to proven business leaders who know how to do the right thing, not what their supporters expect them to do.
As for Kopke's question about greed and gold, I can only hear Gordon Gecko's speech ring loudly through my ears, "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind and greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the U.S.A."
But truthfully if gold continues to rise as our currency is devalued to a point of being worthless, the country is in bad shape. As I tell those who invest in gold and silver with me, I hope you do well for your sake, but I hope you lose money on your investment for the country's sake.
It seems that losing money would be the patriotic thing to do.

Unless it means paying taxes.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on December 18, 2010, 02:24:19 PM
Quote
Well Duck sorry you're colossally ignorant. We could tax wealthy 100% and the country would still be on the path to insolvency.

Well, I am colossally sorry that you are colossally rude and insulting and have no clue after all this time what I actually say.


Quote
Duck:
Thought I brought this up before. You don't care about the kids. Spend, spend, spend don't worry about a thing. The kids will pick up the tab. Yet it is worse than that. Folks that have sacificed to put
money away for decades to secure their senior years could see their savings disappear when the dollar tanks. Duck doesn't care, spend spend spend .........
Quote
This is for the folks, not the Ducks or FB's. The trillion dollar plus deficits the government is running up are not ho hum we'll work through it, we're America. The math doesn't lie.  The time will come,
in the not too distant future, that the Chinese and others will no longer be willing to finance our debt. Already the Federal Reserve is
creating, out of thin air, dollars to finance the debt. This debases the
value of the dollar. China and Russia recently decided to conduct trade
between their countries based on the Chinese Yuan, not the dollar.
If the dollar collapes all hell will break loose. Riots in the streets type stuff. 

This is very, very, very serious. Educate yourself on monetary policy. No time to lose.


Well, John, your gods blackmailed the country into getting new tax cuts for the rich that are not paid for.  But, I guarantee your gods will make sure that they are in the near future.  They will take it from those that need it most.  They are going to make cuts to social security.  The very wealthy are sitting on several trillion dollars not doing anything other than paying themselves huge bonuses for making so much money.  The rest of the country is in a near depression, but hey, reward the rich by doing nothing for this country to help the workers.  Yes, they create job… in other countries. Gosh, they even get corporate welfare to ship our jobs to other countries.  Then to make it even worse you and your idols are going to take away what people paid their whole working lives in to.  To you they are lowlifes that don’t deserve to get back what they paid in.  But, it really doesn’t matter because the tax cut to the rich needs paid for, so the poorest are the ones to pick up the tab.  I do not advocate “spend, spend, spend”  I advocate the workers and that they don’t have to pay for the share the rich should be paying.  I am very much in favor of balanced budgets and paying down the national debt.  Unlike you I don’t want to punish the workers exclusively while rewarding the very wealthy.  I don’t advocate taking away things that benefit the workers in a depressed economic climate where they are having a difficult time surviving, let alone do well, while the very wealthy are reaping big rewards and getting corporate welfare and tax reductions.  Now, you know that already John.  Yet, you want to LIE that I think differently.  So, yeah, we need to get our fiscal house in order, but not on the backs of the poor and middle class alone while reducing the burden on the very rich.  You repeatedly attack the so-called entitlements and NEVER mention corporate welfare or the reduction in the SHARE that the wealthy pay. 

The reality, no matter how you hate it, is that there has to be a combined sacrifice.  Spending for the poor and middle class needs to be reduced, but those that are doing VERY well need to pay more too.  A good start to that would be to eliminate the corporate welfare that gives them nice tax reductions for shipping jobs overseas.  Take that out and put in a credit for creating jobs HERE.  And Brian had a fantastic idea.  One cent per trade would be a big help to equalizing the shortfall.  Bring the troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan and close a couple hundred bases in foreign countries and bring them home too.  When contracts come up, rework them so that public workers have to pay a greater share just as the rest of the population has had to do.  Those are just examples, not a complete list of what can be done, so please don’t try some lame thing like it isn’t enough or something.  The point is, it isn’t just the poor and the middle class that have to sacrifice.  Corporate welfare has to stop, or change to benefit a climate of a workforce IN THIS COUNTRY.  See, if we can get jobs back, ones that people can live on – or gosh – maybe do a little better than survive, and then revenue will increase.  Then, after the national debt is gone… THEN you can reward the rich.

Indeed it is very serious, but rewarding the rich for exporting a substantial part of the good jobs that we USED to have is not the answer.  That you want to bow down to raw greed isn’t going to solve the problem.  Eliminating all spending on the poor and middle class won’t fix it either.    Just as the stupidity of your statement of taxing the rich 100% is ludicrous, so is believing that cutting spending that helps the workers is going to fix it either.  It means tax increases and spending cuts together… Not spending cuts and then added tax reductions insuring that the spending cuts HAVE to be even deeper.

So, John, if you wish to call me “colossally ignorant” for believing that the rich have to do their share and work toward rebuilding viable businesses that employ workers at livable wages HERE instead of in other countries and doing their share of paying for the government operation while reducing spending too.  Fine.  At least I believe I live in reality.  A reality where the very wealthy are doing very, very well and are given a reward of tax cuts while the working classes are struggling to survive.  A reality where you advocate giving those very wealthy even less of a burden and hurting the workers even more than they are currently suffering.  Did you ever stop and think that if your gods did what they should and supply adequate paying jobs then the NEEDS would be reduced, spending would be reduced, and revenue would be up?  No, John, if the way to remove myself from being “colossally ignorant” in your eyes is to bow down to the rich and let them pay next to nothing while killing off the workers by starvation or sickness or starvation – then I will accept your rude insults as a compliment.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on December 18, 2010, 03:31:07 PM
Well, I am colossally sorry that you are colossally rude and insulting and have no clue after all this time what I actually say.



Well, John, your gods blackmailed the country into getting new tax cuts for the rich that are not paid for.  But, I guarantee your gods will make sure that they are in the near future.  They will take it from those that need it most.  They are going to make cuts to social security.  The very wealthy are sitting on several trillion dollars not doing anything other than paying themselves huge bonuses for making so much money.  The rest of the country is in a near depression, but hey, reward the rich by doing nothing for this country to help the workers.  Yes, they create job… in other countries. Gosh, they even get corporate welfare to ship our jobs to other countries.  Then to make it even worse you and your idols are going to take away what people paid their whole working lives in to.  To you they are lowlifes that don’t deserve to get back what they paid in.  But, it really doesn’t matter because the tax cut to the rich needs paid for, so the poorest are the ones to pick up the tab.  I do not advocate “spend, spend, spend”  I advocate the workers and that they don’t have to pay for the share the rich should be paying.  I am very much in favor of balanced budgets and paying down the national debt.  Unlike you I don’t want to punish the workers exclusively while rewarding the very wealthy.  I don’t advocate taking away things that benefit the workers in a depressed economic climate where they are having a difficult time surviving, let alone do well, while the very wealthy are reaping big rewards and getting corporate welfare and tax reductions.  Now, you know that already John.  Yet, you want to LIE that I think differently.  So, yeah, we need to get our fiscal house in order, but not on the backs of the poor and middle class alone while reducing the burden on the very rich.  You repeatedly attack the so-called entitlements and NEVER mention corporate welfare or the reduction in the SHARE that the wealthy pay. 

The reality, no matter how you hate it, is that there has to be a combined sacrifice.  Spending for the poor and middle class needs to be reduced, but those that are doing VERY well need to pay more too.  A good start to that would be to eliminate the corporate welfare that gives them nice tax reductions for shipping jobs overseas.  Take that out and put in a credit for creating jobs HERE.  And Brian had a fantastic idea.  One cent per trade would be a big help to equalizing the shortfall.  Bring the troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan and close a couple hundred bases in foreign countries and bring them home too.  When contracts come up, rework them so that public workers have to pay a greater share just as the rest of the population has had to do.  Those are just examples, not a complete list of what can be done, so please don’t try some lame thing like it isn’t enough or something.  The point is, it isn’t just the poor and the middle class that have to sacrifice.  Corporate welfare has to stop, or change to benefit a climate of a workforce IN THIS COUNTRY.  See, if we can get jobs back, ones that people can live on – or gosh – maybe do a little better than survive, and then revenue will increase.  Then, after the national debt is gone… THEN you can reward the rich.

Indeed it is very serious, but rewarding the rich for exporting a substantial part of the good jobs that we USED to have is not the answer.  That you want to bow down to raw greed isn’t going to solve the problem.  Eliminating all spending on the poor and middle class won’t fix it either.    Just as the stupidity of your statement of taxing the rich 100% is ludicrous, so is believing that cutting spending that helps the workers is going to fix it either.  It means tax increases and spending cuts together… Not spending cuts and then added tax reductions insuring that the spending cuts HAVE to be even deeper.

So, John, if you wish to call me “colossally ignorant” for believing that the rich have to do their share and work toward rebuilding viable businesses that employ workers at livable wages HERE instead of in other countries and doing their share of paying for the government operation while reducing spending too.  Fine.  At least I believe I live in reality.  A reality where the very wealthy are doing very, very well and are given a reward of tax cuts while the working classes are struggling to survive.  A reality where you advocate giving those very wealthy even less of a burden and hurting the workers even more than they are currently suffering.  Did you ever stop and think that if your gods did what they should and supply adequate paying jobs then the NEEDS would be reduced, spending would be reduced, and revenue would be up?  No, John, if the way to remove myself from being “colossally ignorant” in your eyes is to bow down to the rich and let them pay next to nothing while killing off the workers by starvation or sickness or starvation – then I will accept your rude insults as a compliment.

Well, John, your gods blackmailed the country into getting new tax cuts for the rich that are not paid for.

New tax cuts?

Not paid for?

Please explain how you pay for a tax cut.

There is a crossover line where taxation reaches a point where you actually lose revenue. Similar to the crossover line between torque and horsepower.

As Kopke stated we could tax everyone with a pulse 100% and you will not solve what is going to happen without corresponding cuts.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on December 18, 2010, 04:07:57 PM
Well, John, your gods blackmailed the country into getting new tax cuts for the rich that are not paid for.

New tax cuts?

Not paid for?

Please explain how you pay for a tax cut.

There is a crossover line where taxation reaches a point where you actually lose revenue. Similar to the crossover line between torque and horsepower.

As Kopke stated we could tax everyone with a pulse 100% and you will not solve what is going to happen without corresponding cuts.


Yes, NEW tax cuts.  THE old ones expire on Dec 31 of this year.  A NEW one replaces it on Jan. 1.

Semantics… Fine… The cry is cut spending, and reduce revenue at the same time.  If you personally are spending more than you make are you going to ask your boss to lower YOUR income?  Why cry about spending when you are all in favor of reducing revenue with no offset to that loss of revenue?’

What is that crossover line EXACTLY.  I really would love to know what it is.  When Clinton was President the top rate was 39% and the economy was good, then the R’s and Bush lowered it to 35% and the economy stagnated until it made a near collapse.  So, by your reference, they are too low and should be at 39%?  Is that the magic crossover?

“As Kopke stated we could tax everyone with a pulse 100% and you will not solve what is going to happen without corresponding cuts.”

Can’t read?  Reducing revenue has not helped the economy in the last ten years and the extension will only necessitate further spending cuts with no gain from the revenue cuts.  The big argument is that the rich need the reduction to meet your unknown crossover and increase jobs.  Hmmm, yeah, it worked, now the jobs here are largely gone and they are still doing well, but the workers are starving for decent jobs.  So, reward the rich for selling out the country.  Nice advocation there Smash.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on December 18, 2010, 04:42:02 PM
Duck,

I pesonally have taken the following stance:

The government uselessly spends an incredible amount of money.  Just wastes money every day with no regard to the future ramifications.  Without specifying a single program to cut/trim/eliminate I refuse to back highger taxes on ANYONE without the government figuring out how to do with less.

The government (current administration included) has no intnetion of cutting the spending or being fiscally responsible... NONE.  Obama and the Democrats do not want taxes raised to balance budgets or cut deficits, that is not in the works, not at all.  They want more money to spend, more ammunition to buy votes through new government programs and giveaways.  The voters told the Democrats NO in the mid term elections, the GOP is telling them NO through what you call obstruction (what I call listening to their constituents) and you know what... they push on, because they know what is better for us than we do.

I would rather the mess be fixed by the government spending and budgeting rationally and taxing EVERYONE appropriately.  You would rather isolate a small group of people, punish them for having more than you, and make them pay through the nose so that the government can push on as is.  Push the top rate through the roof duck, see what happens, the rich will take their money and stop spending it and then the governemnt will once again have to do what it has done before, change the definition of "rich"... $100K/year sound good?  Raise their taxes too, I think they can afford it.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on December 18, 2010, 04:46:28 PM
PS:

Clinton economy = good.

Possibly... Spending done on credit was through the roof though, so even though the economy looked good and businesses were booming, the bills were not yet paid.  When folks ran out of credit (second half of the Bush Adminisration) the spending dried up and the economy started to turn, throw high fuel costs and the housing bubble on top and TA-DA... welcome to 2010.

Remember a long time ago when I said you cannot trick the economy?  What we have now is the economy's answer to Americans attempting to trick it during the Clinton years.  Actually the economy if nothing else is very very predictable.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on December 18, 2010, 05:48:20 PM
Duck,

I pesonally have taken the following stance:

The government uselessly spends an incredible amount of money.  Just wastes money every day with no regard to the future ramifications.  Without specifying a single program to cut/trim/eliminate I refuse to back highger taxes on ANYONE without the government figuring out how to do with less.

The government (current administration included) has no intnetion of cutting the spending or being fiscally responsible... NONE.  Obama and the Democrats do not want taxes raised to balance budgets or cut deficits, that is not in the works, not at all.  They want more money to spend, more ammunition to buy votes through new government programs and giveaways.  The voters told the Democrats NO in the mid term elections, the GOP is telling them NO through what you call obstruction (what I call listening to their constituents) and you know what... they push on, because they know what is better for us than we do.

I would rather the mess be fixed by the government spending and budgeting rationally and taxing EVERYONE appropriately.  You would rather isolate a small group of people, punish them for having more than you, and make them pay through the nose so that the government can push on as is.  Push the top rate through the roof duck, see what happens, the rich will take their money and stop spending it and then the governemnt will once again have to do what it has done before, change the definition of "rich"... $100K/year sound good?  Raise their taxes too, I think they can afford it.

JBS, I actually do not disagree with your first paragraph.  I do not believe that spending does not need to be reduced.  I have not said that, and in fact, have said the opposite.  You may see the R’s as totally altruistic, however I do not.  I believe this is all about hurting Social Security as hard as they possibly can, and not some noble goal of reducing the national debt.  Sure, that might be a part of what eventually needs done, but why the Republican way always have to be on the backs of workers?

I don’t understand why you and the far right wingers persist to know what I think better than what I think and say.  I do not single out the rich as you accuse.  I say why can’t they be a part of the solution?  Why do they get preferential treatment and nice tidy little deals that ultimately are going to make the sacrifices of the workers even worse? 

I don’t know what the mid terms said.  Maybe your GUESS is right.  My guess is more in line with history and they voted that the economy sucks, jobs are gone, and they want it fixed. The exact same thing as when Obama won.  He failed to do what they wanted and fix the economy, so they voted AGAINST the party in power, not FOR any vague idea other than fix the economy NOW!

I don’t object to a party trying to stop or more favorably negotiate what needs done on many things, but gosh J, ALL things.  It is almost impossible to pass anything when you have to have 61 votes and the minority only needs 41.  You see it as a good thing to do nothing and let the economy drag down in the pit as long as possible.  If they are so dog eared about cutting spending and the D’s wanted to do something to encourage the economy... why didn’t they make a deal and do both instead?   You think the D’s would refuse to deal to get something passed?  I don’t.  It is just like this recent tax debacle.  The R’s agreed to a temporary reduction in the middle class tax rates as long as they were paid for out of SS,  Why out of SS?  TO cut into the fund so the cry to slash SS even further happens.  You see altruism in spending cuts and I see an ideology that wants to give the country away to the rich and leave the rest as peasants.

“I would rather the mess be fixed by the government spending and budgeting rationally and taxing EVERYONE appropriately. “  Exactly what I say…  Why do the rich get rewards and the workers get punishment?

“You would rather isolate a small group of people, punish them for having more than you, and make them pay through the nose so that the government can push on as is.  Push the top rate through the roof duck, see what happens, the rich will take their money and stop spending it and then the government will once again have to do what it has done before, change the definition of "rich"... $100K/year sound good?  Raise their taxes too, I think they can afford it.”

Again I ask, why do you misrepresent what I say?  Does it make your point seem valid then?  It seems to be a trend lately, tell others what they think and make pretend it helps your own spin.  Show me any quote that I made that says I want the rich to pay every penny they make to the government.  Frankly, saying that about anyone is rather silly.  I would be tickled to death to have an economy filled with well paying jobs that allowed the workers to live with respect, then the rich could pay less than the workers for all I care, as long as the working people didn’t have to carry the burden while the rich had far less of a burden. 

Far too many of the decent jobs were shipped out of the country because gosh, if they do that then they make more profit.  Doesn’t matter that THIS economy is crap because of it.  They are still raking in record profits.  The argument for lowering the highest marginal rate was so they can create more jobs and they did, just in other countries.  Why should I show any loyalty to that?  Why should I care if they pay more when they are making RECORD profits while the majority of the country wallows in a near depression?  Why does voiding this country of decent jobs deserve a reward?

AS I said, I am not “anti rich” I am anti down on your knees worshipping the rich like they are the gods.  Last I looked, they are a part of this country too, and do not deserve the preferential treatment that the right demands that they receive.  Why do we have to return to the feudal days of dirt poor peasants with an ultra rich aristocracy?  Because, sir, I suggest that the spending cuts and changes you believe the right demands will accomplish exactly that instead of creating decent jobs for the other 98%.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on December 18, 2010, 05:51:52 PM
PS:

Clinton economy = good.

Possibly... Spending done on credit was through the roof though, so even though the economy looked good and businesses were booming, the bills were not yet paid.  When folks ran out of credit (second half of the Bush Adminisration) the spending dried up and the economy started to turn, throw high fuel costs and the housing bubble on top and TA-DA... welcome to 2010.

Remember a long time ago when I said you cannot trick the economy?  What we have now is the economy's answer to Americans attempting to trick it during the Clinton years.  Actually the economy if nothing else is very very predictable.
With that I agree.  The decline in incomes coupled with easy cheap credit was devastating.  Stupidly, too many people believed that the income disparity  would self correct  and it did not.  They really believed that someday the cost of living would go below their wages instead of surpassing it as income stagnated.  However, it isn't just the workers that did that, or the govt.  A big part is the borrowing of the big banks and wall street, which HAS NOT stopped.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on December 20, 2010, 03:15:17 AM
JBS, I actually do not disagree with your first paragraph.  I do not believe that spending does not need to be reduced.  I have not said that, and in fact, have said the opposite.  You may see the R’s as totally altruistic, however I do not.  I believe this is all about hurting Social Security as hard as they possibly can, and not some noble goal of reducing the national debt.  Sure, that might be a part of what eventually needs done, but why the Republican way always have to be on the backs of workers?

I don’t understand why you and the far right wingers persist to know what I think better than what I think and say.  I do not single out the rich as you accuse.  I say why can’t they be a part of the solution?  Why do they get preferential treatment and nice tidy little deals that ultimately are going to make the sacrifices of the workers even worse? 

I don’t know what the mid terms said.  Maybe your GUESS is right.  My guess is more in line with history and they voted that the economy sucks, jobs are gone, and they want it fixed. The exact same thing as when Obama won.  He failed to do what they wanted and fix the economy, so they voted AGAINST the party in power, not FOR any vague idea other than fix the economy NOW!

I don’t object to a party trying to stop or more favorably negotiate what needs done on many things, but gosh J, ALL things.  It is almost impossible to pass anything when you have to have 61 votes and the minority only needs 41.  You see it as a good thing to do nothing and let the economy drag down in the pit as long as possible.  If they are so dog eared about cutting spending and the D’s wanted to do something to encourage the economy... why didn’t they make a deal and do both instead?   You think the D’s would refuse to deal to get something passed?  I don’t.  It is just like this recent tax debacle.  The R’s agreed to a temporary reduction in the middle class tax rates as long as they were paid for out of SS,  Why out of SS?  TO cut into the fund so the cry to slash SS even further happens.  You see altruism in spending cuts and I see an ideology that wants to give the country away to the rich and leave the rest as peasants.

“I would rather the mess be fixed by the government spending and budgeting rationally and taxing EVERYONE appropriately. “  Exactly what I say…  Why do the rich get rewards and the workers get punishment?

“You would rather isolate a small group of people, punish them for having more than you, and make them pay through the nose so that the government can push on as is.  Push the top rate through the roof duck, see what happens, the rich will take their money and stop spending it and then the government will once again have to do what it has done before, change the definition of "rich"... $100K/year sound good?  Raise their taxes too, I think they can afford it.”

Again I ask, why do you misrepresent what I say?  Does it make your point seem valid then?  It seems to be a trend lately, tell others what they think and make pretend it helps your own spin.  Show me any quote that I made that says I want the rich to pay every penny they make to the government.  Frankly, saying that about anyone is rather silly.  I would be tickled to death to have an economy filled with well paying jobs that allowed the workers to live with respect, then the rich could pay less than the workers for all I care, as long as the working people didn’t have to carry the burden while the rich had far less of a burden. 

Far too many of the decent jobs were shipped out of the country because gosh, if they do that then they make more profit.  Doesn’t matter that THIS economy is crap because of it.  They are still raking in record profits.  The argument for lowering the highest marginal rate was so they can create more jobs and they did, just in other countries.  Why should I show any loyalty to that?  Why should I care if they pay more when they are making RECORD profits while the majority of the country wallows in a near depression?  Why does voiding this country of decent jobs deserve a reward?

AS I said, I am not “anti rich” I am anti down on your knees worshipping the rich like they are the gods.  Last I looked, they are a part of this country too, and do not deserve the preferential treatment that the right demands that they receive.  Why do we have to return to the feudal days of dirt poor peasants with an ultra rich aristocracy?  Because, sir, I suggest that the spending cuts and changes you believe the right demands will accomplish exactly that instead of creating decent jobs for the other 98%.


You keep saying that the rich get a break somehow, and that I am suggesting that they should get even more....  I beg a question of you duck.... what breaks are you talking about?  And from what do you infer that I am in favor of them?  You spent a great many lines in your reply accusing me of telling you what you think, but yet you are the one employing the tactic.

We live in a system where persons making more than $X (more than those who make less than them) pay a higher percentage of their income.  If you make $100K and I make $88K you ALREADY PAY MORE than I do.  Now throw on that you have to pay an extra bit more because of the perception that hey you can afford it...

I am not standing here arguing with you that the rich should pay less %wise than those making fewer dollars than them, just pointing out that they already pay more $wise than those making less than them if everyone were created equal (a sneaky little quip from some founding document there). 

Why duck?  Why can't everyone pay the same % of their income over $35K?  That way everyone can share the burden of being a tax payer and those that make more $wise pay more $wise.

Until you can remove your view of Mr A has more than Mr B so Mr A should pay ALOT more from your field of vision, you will never be able to argue the topic objectively.

As far as the bold.  I used an example, and since you will never supply any numbers into your arguments I tossed a few around for you.  Set the parameters duck... WHAT IS FAIR?  You tell me, I have been very upfront about what I think is fair but you only dance around the topic and claim I misrepresent what you said.  How can I misrepresent something you won't say?  I never claimed you wanted anyone to pay their entire income to the government (using your trick... quote me where I did), but yet you inferred I did in your reply and then accused me of misrepresenting. 

Anyone who takes a stance that Person A should be taxed at a higher % than Person B because of level of income is a proponant of class warfare, and you are foot soldier. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Brian Beneteau on December 20, 2010, 06:59:41 AM
You keep saying that the rich get a break somehow, and that I am suggesting that they should get even more....  I beg a question of you duck.... what breaks are you talking about?  And from what do you infer that I am in favor of them?  You spent a great many lines in your reply accusing me of telling you what you think, but yet you are the one employing the tactic.

We live in a system where persons making more than $X (more than those who make less than them) pay a higher percentage of their income.  If you make $100K and I make $88K you ALREADY PAY MORE than I do.  Now throw on that you have to pay an extra bit more because of the perception that hey you can afford it...

I am not standing here arguing with you that the rich should pay less %wise than those making fewer dollars than them, just pointing out that they already pay more $wise than those making less than them if everyone were created equal (a sneaky little quip from some founding document there). 

Why duck?  Why can't everyone pay the same % of their income over $35K?  That way everyone can share the burden of being a tax payer and those that make more $wise pay more $wise.

Until you can remove your view of Mr A has more than Mr B so Mr A should pay ALOT more from your field of vision, you will never be able to argue the topic objectively.

As far as the bold.  I used an example, and since you will never supply any numbers into your arguments I tossed a few around for you.  Set the parameters duck... WHAT IS FAIR?  You tell me, I have been very upfront about what I think is fair but you only dance around the topic and claim I misrepresent what you said.  How can I misrepresent something you won't say?  I never claimed you wanted anyone to pay their entire income to the government (using your trick... quote me where I did), but yet you inferred I did in your reply and then accused me of misrepresenting. 

Anyone who takes a stance that Person A should be taxed at a higher % than Person B because of level of income is a proponant of class warfare, and you are foot soldier.
You can't imagine the number of people in my precinct who always use the "my roads should be cleaned first, because I pay more taxes" story. I then have to remind them that they pay the same amount as everyone else, but they chose to purchase a more highly valued piece of property. Once they finally get that point, they realize that all is equal as far as percentages. Same with your point. Everyone should be taxed the same rate, as this is the only fair way.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Professor H on December 20, 2010, 09:04:59 AM
You can't imagine the number of people in my precinct who always use the "my roads should be cleaned first, because I pay more taxes" story. I then have to remind them that they pay the same amount as everyone else, but they chose to purchase a more highly valued piece of property. Once they finally get that point, they realize that all is equal as far as percentages. Same with your point. Everyone should be taxed the same rate, as this is the only fair way.
It works that way at the State and Local levels for the most part.  It's the write offs, and credits and all that other stuff that complicates Federal tax laws and makes it seem like the rich get breaks.   
At one end people get money they never worked for back, and at the other end their are tax breaks.   Simple flat rate adjusted to equal what we are paying now would probably be the best way.   But will never happen because of the lobbying power against it.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on December 20, 2010, 09:19:29 AM
I'm all for a flat tax with a deduction. I stated $50K and JBS stated $35K. Mine included no other deductions for children, while his might.

But other than that I'd be in agreement with it. Oh, and many corporations give their CEO's stocks in the company instead of pay. These would be considered taxable, at the rate that they were worth when given to them.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ThePeracha on December 20, 2010, 08:43:18 PM
These would be considered taxable, at the rate that they were worth when given to them.
Is that feasible? I mean, stocks change everyday, not by much but occasionally they'll take a big jump due to some new technology or economic hardship; how would you tax stocks? You'll have to take the average worth of the stock or something, and even then, it'll be a rough estimate at best.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on December 20, 2010, 08:46:20 PM
Is that feasible? I mean, stocks change everyday, not by much but occasionally they'll take a big jump due to some new technology or economic hardship; how would you tax stocks? You'll have to take the average worth of the stock or something, and even then, it'll be a rough estimate at best.

They could and should be taxed the moment they are purchased.  And again when sold if applicable.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on December 20, 2010, 08:55:20 PM
Is that feasible? I mean, stocks change everyday, not by much but occasionally they'll take a big jump due to some new technology or economic hardship; how would you tax stocks? You'll have to take the average worth of the stock or something, and even then, it'll be a rough estimate at best.
You have to have a buying price when you buy a stock. You don't take the average and get to buy it at that price.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ThePeracha on December 20, 2010, 10:19:01 PM
You have to have a buying price when you buy a stock. You don't take the average and get to buy it at that price.
Okay, but the day after you buy some stock, a depression hits and the stocks goes down for and stays down for the rest of the year. Then, what should the amount be that should be taxed?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Tiny on December 20, 2010, 11:19:37 PM
People bought houses before the bubble burst and now they're worth a lot less too.
Sometimes you bite the bear and sometimes the bear bites you.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on December 20, 2010, 11:56:51 PM
Okay, but the day after you buy some stock, a depression hits and the stocks goes down for and stays down for the rest of the year. Then, what should the amount be that should be taxed?

The purchase amount... and it should be paid at the same time the stock is paid for.

Stocks like anything else are risk based investments. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SPOOKYTOOTH on December 21, 2010, 06:59:05 AM
It is kind of curious that otherwise reasonably intelligent folks believe in the law of gravity but refuse to believe the laws of monetary policy and finance don't apply because we are...America?

Really?

How is it the rest of the world has a clue and most here don't?

Think it might have something to do with that Fed. Dept. of ED thing?

You know that math thing isn't our strong suit.

Seen the latest stats on American math scores?

Go figger.

There is one language that cannot be manipulated... mathematics. It is the only true language in use in the world today.

You ask how... as I told you before; its not in what you think, but in how you think; which is directly related to how your mind has been programmed by those doing the programming...,  which is why I refer to them as Puppet Masters.... others refer to them as the Dance Masters.

The Fat Lady is singing ...  can you hear ?

Gold n Silver may offer comfort to the soul; just as the NRA proclaims that guns n gold offer personal protection....  yet if one DOES NOT SEE ....  all the guns and gold n silver, in the world will not offer any security in a world gone insane; protection yes, but it is insight that leads to security.... it is through insight that one can  see the future before it unfolds at hand.

 ( recall....   I was talking to you of IKE, and you were concerned about   the financial issues of the day as opposed to the weather...  I commented that  we  had been awaiting that particular  signpost for almost twenty years..., and went back to discussing the weather....

I also told you of a leveling off, at 'plateau' if you wished, that would come ...and go, in the financial crisis...  tell me you do not now see that 'plateau' and the crest of it passing before your vision... as merely a wave in an ever tossing sea...

an now it is you  who speak of Germany, .....    mmmm.

Consider if you will the tale of David and Goliath...

consider the five stones; their condition, the brook (water), the Shepard's bag, and the sheep left in the field. Consider the reward to the man able to slay Goliath, ... and the armor of Saul David had not proven and therefore could not use...

Consider also that the stone sank into the Philistine's forehead and he fell forward on his face...


Read the story and consider....  where  is  your Goliath;...out  there with the Dance Masters or Puppet Masters, ...  or  inside  your mind, ...where you have nary considered to look?

You ask questions the answers to which abound all about you...  if you only consider.....

...by the way.... what of the other FOUR stones, what   became of them?  ;) )   
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on December 21, 2010, 07:18:04 AM
Okay, but the day after you buy some stock, a depression hits and the stocks goes down for and stays down for the rest of the year. Then, what should the amount be that should be taxed?

The same thing can be said when you sell stocks.  When you sell stocks that are in an IRA, you pay the taxes on that income (assuming the value went up since you purchased them) when they were sold.  If they double in value the following day, you just saved a bunch of money on taxes, but you could have made twice as much money on the stocks themselves!

I have always liked the idea of a flat tax, though.  I could tell my number wizard - er, CPA - to go jump in a lake, because I can do my own taxes.  My personal and business taxes last year were almost a half inch thick, double sided, and cost me $2,350.00 for them to prepare.  THAT is ridiculous!   >:(
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SPOOKYTOOTH on December 21, 2010, 07:19:52 AM
It works that way at the State and Local levels for the most part.  It's the write offs, and credits and all that other stuff that complicates Federal tax laws and makes it seem like the rich get breaks.   
At one end people get money they never worked for back, and at the other end their are tax breaks.   Simple flat rate adjusted to equal what we are paying now would probably be the best way.   But will never happen because of the lobbying power against it.

                                                  8)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on December 21, 2010, 10:20:11 AM
From an email I recieved today.

_______________________________________________________________

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100...
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

 

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7..

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do..

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20". Drinks for the ten men would now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men ? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% saving).

The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% saving).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% saving).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% saving).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% saving).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,"but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back, when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.

Professor of Economics.

 

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.

 

For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SPOOKYTOOTH on December 21, 2010, 03:17:06 PM
From an email I recieved today.

_______________________________________________________________

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100...
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

 

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7..

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do..

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20". Drinks for the ten men would now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men ? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% saving).

The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% saving).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% saving).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% saving).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% saving).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,"but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back, when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.

Professor of Economics.

 

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.

 

For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible

So why not simply not base the rate on what exists at present  ? Why not impose a flat 5% or 10% on everyone equally? Drop  property and sales taxes completely, its been paid for once; why continue to rent it when it has supposedly already been purchased...   

Yes, the rich would pay more, but the poor would also pay their share. Or I suppose a system could be implemented where say 10% of everyones production for the year was turned over to the government, though I do not believe that any government could find a use for say 1 million kazoos or  20 million video games.

The simple fact is that no matter what system is imposed it has to come about as part of a fundamental change in the manner in which men think and reason, without that all comes to naught, irregardless of how well intentioned.

The United States is in the process of leaving the game, another player will take its place. The United States and its people will be divided for spoil. I do not believe that any economic system or tax system will serve to change that reality.

When I comment on or inquire into economic or taxation policies it is more out of personal interest and inquisition than in support of one  over another. In consideration of the future of the nation of America, not to mention the future of this world in general, I do not believe that any economic system, at least not one of man's formation will be in play     on the far side of the coming conflagration. I really believe the focus will be on survival as opposed to economic and taxation policy, or how much gold, silver, or other precious commodities, save for food and potable water one possesses. One who is rich in the former but poor in the latter may find it difficult to bargin with those wealthy in the latter but of a different mind than that of oneself.... which is why it might be of importance to consider such things in the  present  as opposed to the future. An iron rod is rather difficult to deal with, its not very flexible; I understand TRUTH can be that way, like unto an iron rod...  personally, I find the double edged sword much preferable to the iron rod, but to each his own.

That said, it is still interesting to educate oneself on the different philosophies, ... and why they do not work, or potentially could.
   
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on December 21, 2010, 10:01:25 PM
It just doesn't matter what the government does, at this point, regarding taxes.  I think we're past the point of no return, and the value of the U.S. Dollar will continue to fall, and our country will fall with it.  Gas prices will skyrocket.  In fact ALL commodities will skyrocket.  Corn, soybeans, precious metals, EVERYTHING will skyrocket, and very soon.  Quite possibly in 2011. 

Enjoy being able to buy a loaf of bread for only a dollar right now.  It won't be long and it will cost 5, maybe ten times that much.  We will be paying over $5.00 a gallon for gas within a year or two.  Look what copper prices are doing right NOW.  Copper futures jumped to $4.27 a pound today.  Look what gold has been doing.  That is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, folks.

This country is doomed.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on December 21, 2010, 10:11:13 PM
Makes me look forward to the end of all things come 12/21/2012.

I can't wait!!! :D
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on December 21, 2010, 10:14:20 PM
Makes me look forward to the end of all things come 12/21/2012.

I can't wait!!! :D

Two years from now?

You really think we'll last that long, Fluffy?  lol
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on December 21, 2010, 10:19:14 PM
Two years from now?

You really think we'll last that long, Fluffy?  lol
It was predicted several thousand ago, and with every one screaming "We're doomed, we're doomed" it just makes me believe that we will be, but it will be by our own making.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on December 21, 2010, 10:25:21 PM
It was predicted several thousand ago, and with every one screaming "We're doomed, we're doomed" it just makes me believe that we will be, but it will be by our own making.

Oh, I don't think the earth is going to blow up or anything.  Our economy will just go into the toilet, with rioting in the streets, and Americans starving, that kind of thing.


In the late 1970's, the US was the world's largest creditor.

Since the late 1990's, we have been the world's largest debtor.  And we keep printing useless dollars, and making the growing problem worse.  Increasing our National Debt at ever-increasing rates, while the printing presses keep churning out even more "money", is filling our coffin with nails.

Good time to be a farmer.  At least I won't starve.

I hope.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on December 21, 2010, 10:28:20 PM
Oh, I don't think the earth is going to blow up or anything.  Our economy will just go into the toilet, with rioting in the streets, and Americans starving, that kind of thing.


In the late 1970's, the US was the world's largest creditor.

Since the late 1990's, we have been the world's largest debtor.  And we keep printing useless dollars, and making the growing problem worse.  Increasing our National Debt at ever-increasing rates, while the printing presses keep churning out even more "money", is filling our coffin with nails.

Good time to be a farmer.  At least I won't starve.

I hope.
Well it happens, it won't be just here, it will happen all over the world.


NUKE THE PLANET!!! SARAH PALIN FOR PRESIDENT!!!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Tiny on December 21, 2010, 10:51:41 PM
US Dollar Outlook for 2010 2011

The US dollar’s decline highlights the contrast between countries recovering from the global slump versus a sputtering American economy. In fact, to addressing tightening credit conditions the US Fed is expected to undertake another round of bond-buying (further devaluing the greenback), as confirmed by Fed Chairman Bernanke’s recent comments. This approach of loosening monetary policy (quantitative easing) is also happening at other central banks facing similar challenges to those in the US, as shown by recent actions of the Bank of England and the Bank of Japan. Hence it is no surprise that they currencies of these nations are also falling versus nations like Australia, where central banks are tightening monetary policy through raising interest rates.

[G20 Meeting Updates] Group of 20 pledge to avoid “competitive devaluation” that acerbates the U.S. currency’s decline. However, investors skeptical that this pledge will hold in light of further quantitative easing by the US Federal Reserve to bolster US economy, and US dollar continues to fall after a brief rally.

The US dollar fall is actually helping many American business’ as it makes their exports cheaper and boosts locally made product sales as imports become more expensive. In fact the dollar slide is a major source fueling domestic growth in a low inflation environment, something which the government and Fed are actually supporting. Many analysts are predicting that the US dollar will continue it’s downward trend into 2011 and 2012, barring any geopolitical or major economic shocks.

There is also a real risk of a currency war emerging if other nations step up to weaken their currencies, which could lead to a marked slow down in the global economy.

http://www.savingtoinvest.com/2008/05/us-dollar-outlook-2008-2009-and-beyond.html (http://www.savingtoinvest.com/2008/05/us-dollar-outlook-2008-2009-and-beyond.html)

If the dollar declines, doesn't that mean the U.S. owes less money(value) to the countries they borrowed from?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on December 22, 2010, 08:57:16 AM
US Dollar Outlook for 2010 2011

The US dollar’s decline highlights the contrast between countries recovering from the global slump versus a sputtering American economy. In fact, to addressing tightening credit conditions the US Fed is expected to undertake another round of bond-buying (further devaluing the greenback), as confirmed by Fed Chairman Bernanke’s recent comments. This approach of loosening monetary policy (quantitative easing) is also happening at other central banks facing similar challenges to those in the US, as shown by recent actions of the Bank of England and the Bank of Japan. Hence it is no surprise that they currencies of these nations are also falling versus nations like Australia, where central banks are tightening monetary policy through raising interest rates.

[G20 Meeting Updates] Group of 20 pledge to avoid “competitive devaluation” that acerbates the U.S. currency’s decline. However, investors skeptical that this pledge will hold in light of further quantitative easing by the US Federal Reserve to bolster US economy, and US dollar continues to fall after a brief rally.

The US dollar fall is actually helping many American business’ as it makes their exports cheaper and boosts locally made product sales as imports become more expensive. In fact the dollar slide is a major source fueling domestic growth in a low inflation environment, something which the government and Fed are actually supporting. Many analysts are predicting that the US dollar will continue it’s downward trend into 2011 and 2012, barring any geopolitical or major economic shocks.

There is also a real risk of a currency war emerging if other nations step up to weaken their currencies, which could lead to a marked slow down in the global economy.

[url]http://www.savingtoinvest.com/2008/05/us-dollar-outlook-2008-2009-and-beyond.html[/url] ([url]http://www.savingtoinvest.com/2008/05/us-dollar-outlook-2008-2009-and-beyond.html[/url])

If the dollar declines, doesn't that mean the U.S. owes less money(value) to the countries they borrowed from?
The reply to this is that the Government doesn't know what the hell it's doing and we are all going to die, starving to death.

The godless Chinese are going to be pissed so we need to nuke them now before they attack us, as it is inevitable that they will do so to take what is theirs.

NUKE THE PLANET!!!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on December 22, 2010, 01:37:16 PM
From an email I recieved today.

_______________________________________________________________

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100...
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

 

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7..

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do..

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20". Drinks for the ten men would now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men ? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% saving).

The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% saving).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% saving).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% saving).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% saving).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,"but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back, when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.

Professor of Economics.

 

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.

 

For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible
David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D. denied authorship
http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/howtaxes.asp (http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/howtaxes.asp)


The biggest question about this eRumor is not so much whether it's an accurate picture of taxation as to who actually wrote it.

The most recent version that has circulated on the Internet attributes it to David R. Kamerschen, a professor of Economics at the University of Georgia.

On his website, however, he denies that he wrote it and says he doesn't know who did. How his name got attached to it, he does not know.

Different version says it was written by another university professor, T. Davies of the University of South Dakota.   He also denies that he wrote it.

So its origin is still a mystery.
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/t/taxcuts.htm (http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/t/taxcuts.htm)


Check out the versions here:
http://hypocrisy.com/2008/10/26/tax-policy-explained-by-david-r-kamerschen-phd/ (http://hypocrisy.com/2008/10/26/tax-policy-explained-by-david-r-kamerschen-phd/)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on December 22, 2010, 02:39:21 PM
I like this explanation better. It's probably more accurate.

Hypocrisy indeed. I prefer this explanation:

In the US and throughout most of the rest of the world, the tenth man would have paid off a politician for $10 to get a beer subsidy of $30 per night(to create jobs for the bartender). Of this $30, $10 of course would have covered the lobbying expense, $10 would go in his own pocket, $1 would go to the bartender to keep his mouth shut, and $9 would go to the bar.

The Bar would give him a kickback of $10 each night for bringing in his 9 buddies to make them into alcoholics, repeat customers for life.

The Bar would then raise their prices to $130 citing inflation and higher taxes.

The tenth richest man would then secure his finances in a Dutch Holding Company managed by a trust in Ireland which invests in Chase and Bank of America. He would then explain to his buddies that he is as poor as the rest of them and can’t afford to pay himself as he cries into his beer that night citing his latest financial report which shows him to be broke on paper so that he doesn’t have to pay taxes in the United States ever again.

Citing his former generosity, the other nine men would agree that the tenth man can now pay nothing like the 4 poorest.

The others would then be faced with an adjusted amount of

* The fifth would pay $3.
* The sixth would pay $10.
* The seventh would pay $22.
* The eighth would pay $38.
* The ninth would pay $57.

Now the group would recognize that this is not fair and so would lobby the Government for an Earned Drinking Credit for the Poorest men. The government would oblige and give the four poorest men $2 each, but they would tax the 5th - 9th men $2 each as well.

* 4 men receive a total of $8 and 5 men pay $10.

The adjusted amounts would then look like this for all 10

* First Receives $2 pays $2 | Net 0
* Second Receives $2 pays $2 | Net 0
* Third Receives $2 pays $2 | Net 0
* Fourth Receives $2 pays $2 | Net 0
* Fifth Pay $1 to bar pays $2 to tax | net paid $3
* Sixth Pay $8 to bar; pays $2 to tax | net paid $10
* Seventh Pay $20 to bar; pays $2 to tax | net paid $22
* Eighth Pay $36 to bar pays $2 to tax | net paid $38
* Ninth Pay $55 to bar; pays $2 to tax | net paid $57
* Tenth Man: Tax Credit Received: $30 ;
Pays $10 to politician;
$1 to bartender;
Receives $10 from Bar
Net RECEIVED $29 per night and free beer

Of course this can not go on forever as the sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth men can’t afford to pay those rates forever. So they start paying with their credit cards held by Bank of America and Chase.

The tenth man would start demanding a higher Return on Investment from his investment managers, who would be hearing similar requests from all of their other investors. They would then expand their holdings into mortgaged back securities where a good deal more profit could be made.

Meanwhile the Fifth through ninth men are racking up debt on their credit cards from drinking every night, their health care costs are increasing as their liver fails, and they are also spending more on gasoline as they drink and drive as they can no longer afford to cab it.

Ultimately, they end up refinancing their credit cards into their house where they have equity. The mortgage broker promises them a 4.9% interest rate on the refinance which sounds good as their credit card interest rate is up to 21%. The broker promises them that they will not have to verify their income, provide W2’s nor copies of their tax paper work.

Their mortgage broker doesn’t tell them, but lies about the value of their house in order to refinance their credit and help them avoid paying private mortgage insurance. At their current income levels, and without verifying their income, their mortgage would be classified as Sub Prime and the interest rate would be 10.9%

The mortgage officer lies about their income levels as well to boost the internal credit scoring mechanism and get them financed, not at 4.9% but 5.9%, which is better than 10.9% and happens to pay the mortgage broker a higher commission than a loan at 4.9% that is not sub prime.

The mortgage broker also promises them a payment of $900 per month, but fails to mention the balloon payment of $50,000 in the 5th year and doesn’t mention the adjustable rates in year 3.

The men separately show up with a hangover and sun glasses on the date of their close for their new mortgages. They trust their broker and do not read the paperwork in detail flipping and signing almost as fast as they could raise a beer bottle to their lips.

The loan closes, the mortgage broker gets a fat commission, the bank securitizes the mortgages by selling them to an Irish Hedge Fund and pockets collectively a billion dollars in profits that year.

The hedge fund holds the investment for a year, shows a 35% gain on paper and starts selling shares to retirement funds and 401ks in the US that the Sixth through 9th men just happen to have the rest of their life savings sitting in.

The tenth man sees the writing on the wall, literally magic marker on a stall in the restroom of the bar.

“The end is Nigh”

He pulls his money out of the Irish Hedge fund invested in real estate and invests in Gold at $600 a troy ounce.

Meanwhile, he lobbies congress to tighten bankruptcy laws for credit cards which he still has a sizable investment in. Congress tightens bankruptcy laws and makes it impossible to absolve credit card debt, forcing people into chapter 13 where they must pay off the debt within 3 years or go to debtors prison where they can work it off in 7 years.

Gas prices are still going up so the President ignores a minor terrorist threat, allows the terrorists to blow up a major building and then goes to war with the terrorists home country where there is no oil, and simultaneously with a country that sits on 10% of the worlds oil reserves that has a decimated military infrastructure.

Oil prices shoot through the roof with Gold following close behind. The President whose family comes from oil barons make a fortune and become famous at their skull and bones country club outside of Yale.

Meanwhile our famous 10 guys, start paying even more money at the pump. The first 4 guys end up taking second jobs working at Wal-Mart and have to give up drinking at the bar so that they can try and beat their teenage kids out of a promotion.

The fifth and sixth guys get foreclosed upon. They were forced to stop paying their mortgage payments so that they could pay their mandatory credit card payments as required by the new bankruptcy law.

The seventh, eighth and ninth men all previously traded up their homes for McMansions that they can not afford with interest only payments of $2300 a month. When foreclosures start happening their plans on flipping their McMansions and cashing in on the equity slips through their fingers.

To make matters worse seven and eight get laid off from the companies they work for when their jobs get outsourced to China. The ninth man keeps his job at a law firm, but fails to notice that his 401k fund is slipping and has lost 10% in the last year. Things are looking up as his law firm seems on the edge of landing a big contract with Merrill Lynch.

Then the real estate crash and sub prime mortgage scandal erupt. Banks start dropping like flies to be saved not by the cash strapped government that can barely afford the war for oil any longer, but by China. Oil and Gold soar, Gold hits $900 a troy ounce and Oil hits $130 a barrel (about the same amount for 10 rounds of beer prior to the crash). Beer prices hold steady for the first few months, but then start to edge up as gas prices for delivery creep into the bar owners expenses.

Then the first four men one night remember their favorite bar. They sneak around back around 4:30 am and steal 50 empty kegs that just happen to be made of pure aluminum. Those kegs are now worth about half the value of a keg that is full in scrap metal prices or about $80.

They are not stupid and don’t want to get caught turning the kegs in at the dump where the police are already looking for keg thieves. So they head out to the closed down manufacturing plant where they used to work. They start a big fire, and melt down the aluminum into big messy aluminum splashes on the cement.

They turn in the aluminum for cash and get caught up on their back alimony and child support before heading back to work at Wal-mart where they now work for their teen age kids that beat them out for that promotion earlier in the month because their job skills weren’t as good as recent high school graduates. They then begin dreaming of new ways to find aluminum alimony allowances.

Meanwhile, the banks and mortgage companies lobby congress spending about $10,000 a head in an election year to bail out the economy. Congress provides the major banks with government backed loans to refinance the bad sub prime loans so that the government can personally guarantee those bad loans. They also put $100 billion of actual cash into the hands of Americans hoping to stimulate the economy.

Americans however, are all in debt up to their eye balls and use the extra $1200 they receive to make 2-3 credit card payments. They take the $300 for each kid and buy groceries for the month and then they start worrying about next month.

The banks get away free as they have Chinese financing now and no bad loans as they have refinanced them over to the US Government. The US government had to print more money to pay for all of these actions and so Gold goes up to $1500 a troy ounce.

The tenth man is now worth Billions and moves to Costa Rica to retire taking the new trophy wife that used to be the bartenders girl friend with him.

The first four men end up going to county prison for 3 months for stealing aluminum dog crap receptacles after running out of kegs to steal.

The fifth and sixth men end up living in an apartment and then homeless after they lose their jobs at Wal-Mart.

The seventh and eighth men whom we previously left hanging in our story after they lost their jobs and ability to pay for their homes, end up losing their homes, and their kids. They and their spouses are each convicted of mortgage fraud by the FBI in a major sting operation after it is revealed that they lied on their mortgage applications. Their mortgage brokers who actually did the paper work cop a plea agreement in exchange for immunity with the Feds and rat out each of their unsuspecting customers.

The ninth man ends up losing his entire retirement fund which took a big hit as the dollar rapidly plummeted into free fall. He ends up refinancing his own house under a government backed loan for $650,000. Unfortunately, a tornado comes through that winter in a freak coincidence and levels the home. FEMA promises to provide assistance but never shows up and the ninth man freezes to death attempting to salvage the shreds of his belongings. His home insurance policy refuses to pay as they claim that his house was over valued and then they prove it with comparable studies from his own mortgage brokers database.

The tenth man ends up dumping his new bride a year later, moving back to the states a year after that when the US appears to have hit rock bottom and he leads up a Chinese real estate investment initiative in the states. He makes another $10 billion in ten years, but is then executed in Beijing for espionage.

Meanwhile, the bar tender goes on to win American Idol and sleep with Paula Abdul. They are now blissfully happy, doped up on anti-psychotics, and the biggest two idiots the world has ever seen.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on December 22, 2010, 02:56:15 PM
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 22, 2010

The true scale of the bank bailout – it's not just TARP
by Gaius Publius on 12/22/2010 12:18:00 PM
 
Matt Taibbi, in a blog post praising Bernie Sanders to the detriment of Mr. Yes I Can (And You Can't Stop Me), has this to say in passing about the scale of the bank bailout.

This information came out as a result of Sen. Sanders persistence in inserting an "audit the Fed" provision into the Dodd-Frank regulatory bill. Here's Taibbi (my emphasis):
I was in Washington last week and visited Bernie in his office, mainly to talk about the incredible results of the Federal Reserve audit, about which I’ll be writing more in the upcoming weeks and after the New Year. The audit of the Fed was undertaken because Bernie and a few other members of congress fought very hard during the Dodd-Frank regulatory reform debate to force open Ben Bernanke’s books, and as a result we now know the staggering details of the secret bailout era. We know that Citigroup received $1.6 trillion in loans, and Morgan Stanley $2 trillion, and Goldman Sachs – the same Goldman Sachs that bragged about how quickly it paid back its $10 billion TARP bailout – over $600 billion. We know that hedge fund billionaires who moved their corporate addresses to the Cayman Islands to avoid U.S. taxes were rewarded by their buddies in government with huge Fed loans; we know that the U.S. government likewise has been extending massive loans to a variety of Japanese car companies at a time when many American auto workers in Detroit have seen their wages cut in half, to $14 an hour. There’s that and there’s more on the outrage front, and we know it all because Sanders kicked and screamed and stamped his feet about Fed secrecy until just enough other members of the Senate decided to go along with him.
Did you catch that? It's a ton of info.
Morgan Stanley — $2 trillion
Citigroup — $1.6 trillion
Goldman Sachs — more than one-half trillion (pikers)
Japanese automakers
Hyper-wealthy individuals
TARP is a drop in the bucket, and anyone who trumpets TARP repayments as meaningful is meaning to fool you.

These companies exist to hoover money into the pockets of the already wealthy. Obama just gave them tax cuts. Now he wants your Social Security. And it's Christmas.

The dots just connect themselves; they're not even pretending anymore.

http://www.americablog.com/2010/12/true-scale-of-bank-bailout-its-not-just.html (http://www.americablog.com/2010/12/true-scale-of-bank-bailout-its-not-just.html)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on December 22, 2010, 05:55:32 PM
Duck:
In some ways you post gives an indication you're starting to get it on how the FED operates to the detriment of the folks. However, in my opinion, you use too broad a brush on who is wealthy and buying
Congress with lobbyists. There are people I would consider wealthy
like maybe a Dick Sieb owner of Sieb's Plumbing. Now I don't know for a fact how much he makes, or even how much he has , but Sieb's seems to have been a successful business for many years and employs a lot of well paid plumbers so it is reasonable to believe he is doing pretty well. Do you consider him part of the evil rich?
paid folks 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on December 23, 2010, 02:06:34 PM
Duck:
In some ways you post gives an indication you're starting to get it on how the FED operates to the detriment of the folks. However, in my opinion, you use too broad a brush on who is wealthy and buying
Congress with lobbyists. There are people I would consider wealthy
like maybe a Dick Sieb owner of Sieb's Plumbing. Now I don't know for a fact how much he makes, or even how much he has , but Sieb's seems to have been a successful business for many years and employs a lot of well paid plumbers so it is reasonable to believe he is doing pretty well. Do you consider him part of the evil rich?
paid folks
Is he one of the super-rich?

One has to wonder what you have against him to throw him under the bus like you have.

Perhaps there's an underlying jealousy going on because of his first name.

My guess is you've been called that many times and would've rather it meant something less disparaging.  ;)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on December 23, 2010, 04:48:14 PM
I guess this begs the question of how much per year is classified as super rich, rich, upper middle class, middle class, poor, and poverty! 

My guess is that it will be subjective to where you think you are currently.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Tiny on December 23, 2010, 10:08:59 PM
The reply to this is that the Government doesn't know what the hell it's doing and we are all going to die, starving to death.

The godless Chinese are going to be pissed so we need to nuke them now before they attack us, as it is inevitable that they will do so to take what is theirs.

NUKE THE PLANET!!!

I think you need a good dose of that medical MaryJoewanna to help you relax some.  :)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SPOOKYTOOTH on December 25, 2010, 02:42:20 PM
Is he one of the super-rich?

One has to wonder what you have against him to throw him under the bus like you have.

Perhaps there's an underlying jealousy going on because of his first name.

My guess is you've been called that many times and would've rather it meant something less disparaging.  ;)

When in a corner go for the necktie...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on December 25, 2010, 07:14:41 PM
When in a corner go for the necktie...
Yep, all's fair in love and war.
Thanks for not being your usual verbose self when addressing me.....my attention span is very short.....somewhat like my male appendage on this cold winter day.  ;D
I've often heard about dogs and owners resembling each other....makes me wonder if your avatar is a female dog.  ;)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on December 25, 2010, 08:13:29 PM
Not dog; WOLF!! Gender unknown.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SimpleMan on December 26, 2010, 01:12:40 AM
I like this explanation better. It's probably more accurate.

Hypocrisy indeed. I prefer this explanation:

In the US and throughout most of the rest of the world, the tenth man would have paid off a politician for $10 to get a beer subsidy of $30 per night(to create jobs for the bartender). Of this $30, $10 of course would have covered the lobbying expense, $10 would go in his own pocket, $1 would go to the bartender to keep his mouth shut, and $9 would go to the bar.

The Bar would give him a kickback of $10 each night for bringing in his 9 buddies to make them into alcoholics, repeat customers for life.

The Bar would then raise their prices to $130 citing inflation and higher taxes.

The tenth richest man would then secure his finances in a Dutch Holding Company managed by a trust in Ireland which invests in Chase and Bank of America. He would then explain to his buddies that he is as poor as the rest of them and can’t afford to pay himself as he cries into his beer that night citing his latest financial report which shows him to be broke on paper so that he doesn’t have to pay taxes in the United States ever again.

Citing his former generosity, the other nine men would agree that the tenth man can now pay nothing like the 4 poorest.

The others would then be faced with an adjusted amount of

* The fifth would pay $3.
* The sixth would pay $10.
* The seventh would pay $22.
* The eighth would pay $38.
* The ninth would pay $57.

Now the group would recognize that this is not fair and so would lobby the Government for an Earned Drinking Credit for the Poorest men. The government would oblige and give the four poorest men $2 each, but they would tax the 5th - 9th men $2 each as well.

* 4 men receive a total of $8 and 5 men pay $10.

The adjusted amounts would then look like this for all 10

* First Receives $2 pays $2 | Net 0
* Second Receives $2 pays $2 | Net 0
* Third Receives $2 pays $2 | Net 0
* Fourth Receives $2 pays $2 | Net 0
* Fifth Pay $1 to bar pays $2 to tax | net paid $3
* Sixth Pay $8 to bar; pays $2 to tax | net paid $10
* Seventh Pay $20 to bar; pays $2 to tax | net paid $22
* Eighth Pay $36 to bar pays $2 to tax | net paid $38
* Ninth Pay $55 to bar; pays $2 to tax | net paid $57
* Tenth Man: Tax Credit Received: $30 ;
Pays $10 to politician;
$1 to bartender;
Receives $10 from Bar
Net RECEIVED $29 per night and free beer

Of course this can not go on forever as the sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth men can’t afford to pay those rates forever. So they start paying with their credit cards held by Bank of America and Chase.

The tenth man would start demanding a higher Return on Investment from his investment managers, who would be hearing similar requests from all of their other investors. They would then expand their holdings into mortgaged back securities where a good deal more profit could be made.

Meanwhile the Fifth through ninth men are racking up debt on their credit cards from drinking every night, their health care costs are increasing as their liver fails, and they are also spending more on gasoline as they drink and drive as they can no longer afford to cab it.

Ultimately, they end up refinancing their credit cards into their house where they have equity. The mortgage broker promises them a 4.9% interest rate on the refinance which sounds good as their credit card interest rate is up to 21%. The broker promises them that they will not have to verify their income, provide W2’s nor copies of their tax paper work.

Their mortgage broker doesn’t tell them, but lies about the value of their house in order to refinance their credit and help them avoid paying private mortgage insurance. At their current income levels, and without verifying their income, their mortgage would be classified as Sub Prime and the interest rate would be 10.9%

The mortgage officer lies about their income levels as well to boost the internal credit scoring mechanism and get them financed, not at 4.9% but 5.9%, which is better than 10.9% and happens to pay the mortgage broker a higher commission than a loan at 4.9% that is not sub prime.

The mortgage broker also promises them a payment of $900 per month, but fails to mention the balloon payment of $50,000 in the 5th year and doesn’t mention the adjustable rates in year 3.

The men separately show up with a hangover and sun glasses on the date of their close for their new mortgages. They trust their broker and do not read the paperwork in detail flipping and signing almost as fast as they could raise a beer bottle to their lips.

The loan closes, the mortgage broker gets a fat commission, the bank securitizes the mortgages by selling them to an Irish Hedge Fund and pockets collectively a billion dollars in profits that year.

The hedge fund holds the investment for a year, shows a 35% gain on paper and starts selling shares to retirement funds and 401ks in the US that the Sixth through 9th men just happen to have the rest of their life savings sitting in.

The tenth man sees the writing on the wall, literally magic marker on a stall in the restroom of the bar.

“The end is Nigh”

He pulls his money out of the Irish Hedge fund invested in real estate and invests in Gold at $600 a troy ounce.

Meanwhile, he lobbies congress to tighten bankruptcy laws for credit cards which he still has a sizable investment in. Congress tightens bankruptcy laws and makes it impossible to absolve credit card debt, forcing people into chapter 13 where they must pay off the debt within 3 years or go to debtors prison where they can work it off in 7 years.

Gas prices are still going up so the President ignores a minor terrorist threat, allows the terrorists to blow up a major building and then goes to war with the terrorists home country where there is no oil, and simultaneously with a country that sits on 10% of the worlds oil reserves that has a decimated military infrastructure.

Oil prices shoot through the roof with Gold following close behind. The President whose family comes from oil barons make a fortune and become famous at their skull and bones country club outside of Yale.

Meanwhile our famous 10 guys, start paying even more money at the pump. The first 4 guys end up taking second jobs working at Wal-Mart and have to give up drinking at the bar so that they can try and beat their teenage kids out of a promotion.

The fifth and sixth guys get foreclosed upon. They were forced to stop paying their mortgage payments so that they could pay their mandatory credit card payments as required by the new bankruptcy law.

The seventh, eighth and ninth men all previously traded up their homes for McMansions that they can not afford with interest only payments of $2300 a month. When foreclosures start happening their plans on flipping their McMansions and cashing in on the equity slips through their fingers.

To make matters worse seven and eight get laid off from the companies they work for when their jobs get outsourced to China. The ninth man keeps his job at a law firm, but fails to notice that his 401k fund is slipping and has lost 10% in the last year. Things are looking up as his law firm seems on the edge of landing a big contract with Merrill Lynch.

Then the real estate crash and sub prime mortgage scandal erupt. Banks start dropping like flies to be saved not by the cash strapped government that can barely afford the war for oil any longer, but by China. Oil and Gold soar, Gold hits $900 a troy ounce and Oil hits $130 a barrel (about the same amount for 10 rounds of beer prior to the crash). Beer prices hold steady for the first few months, but then start to edge up as gas prices for delivery creep into the bar owners expenses.

Then the first four men one night remember their favorite bar. They sneak around back around 4:30 am and steal 50 empty kegs that just happen to be made of pure aluminum. Those kegs are now worth about half the value of a keg that is full in scrap metal prices or about $80.

They are not stupid and don’t want to get caught turning the kegs in at the dump where the police are already looking for keg thieves. So they head out to the closed down manufacturing plant where they used to work. They start a big fire, and melt down the aluminum into big messy aluminum splashes on the cement.

They turn in the aluminum for cash and get caught up on their back alimony and child support before heading back to work at Wal-mart where they now work for their teen age kids that beat them out for that promotion earlier in the month because their job skills weren’t as good as recent high school graduates. They then begin dreaming of new ways to find aluminum alimony allowances.

Meanwhile, the banks and mortgage companies lobby congress spending about $10,000 a head in an election year to bail out the economy. Congress provides the major banks with government backed loans to refinance the bad sub prime loans so that the government can personally guarantee those bad loans. They also put $100 billion of actual cash into the hands of Americans hoping to stimulate the economy.

Americans however, are all in debt up to their eye balls and use the extra $1200 they receive to make 2-3 credit card payments. They take the $300 for each kid and buy groceries for the month and then they start worrying about next month.

The banks get away free as they have Chinese financing now and no bad loans as they have refinanced them over to the US Government. The US government had to print more money to pay for all of these actions and so Gold goes up to $1500 a troy ounce.

The tenth man is now worth Billions and moves to Costa Rica to retire taking the new trophy wife that used to be the bartenders girl friend with him.

The first four men end up going to county prison for 3 months for stealing aluminum dog crap receptacles after running out of kegs to steal.

The fifth and sixth men end up living in an apartment and then homeless after they lose their jobs at Wal-Mart.

The seventh and eighth men whom we previously left hanging in our story after they lost their jobs and ability to pay for their homes, end up losing their homes, and their kids. They and their spouses are each convicted of mortgage fraud by the FBI in a major sting operation after it is revealed that they lied on their mortgage applications. Their mortgage brokers who actually did the paper work cop a plea agreement in exchange for immunity with the Feds and rat out each of their unsuspecting customers.

The ninth man ends up losing his entire retirement fund which took a big hit as the dollar rapidly plummeted into free fall. He ends up refinancing his own house under a government backed loan for $650,000. Unfortunately, a tornado comes through that winter in a freak coincidence and levels the home. FEMA promises to provide assistance but never shows up and the ninth man freezes to death attempting to salvage the shreds of his belongings. His home insurance policy refuses to pay as they claim that his house was over valued and then they prove it with comparable studies from his own mortgage brokers database.

The tenth man ends up dumping his new bride a year later, moving back to the states a year after that when the US appears to have hit rock bottom and he leads up a Chinese real estate investment initiative in the states. He makes another $10 billion in ten years, but is then executed in Beijing for espionage.

Meanwhile, the bar tender goes on to win American Idol and sleep with Paula Abdul. They are now blissfully happy, doped up on anti-psychotics, and the biggest two idiots the world has ever seen.

I actually read all that. It's quite a post.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SPOOKYTOOTH on December 28, 2010, 03:56:26 PM
It doesn't have a direct link to this thread, but it does pertain to the general topic. I listened to the mayor of Toledo the other day talking about what he is trying to do to pull his city out of the financial straights it is in and how the citizens, council, unions, and various boards just don't seem to " get it " when he says there isn't enough money to do everything everyone wants and still balance the budget. How they don't seem to see any issues in continuing to operate at a deficit.

Kinda like the same issues facing the U.S. in general.

And true to form, the reply from a union head to the suggestion that union members forgo raises to do their part in balancing that budget, was hostility, self-serving, and attacking the mayor's ''necktie''.

Instead of presenting an attitude that would be beneficial toward working on the issue in unison, this person chose confrontation and the attitude that the unions was going to get its pound of flesh come hell or high water... and be damned with the rest of the services the city needs to operate. To which I wondered the obvious:

What exactly is the point of YOU having "your" pound of flesh if it prevents everyone else from getting theirs and the city goes bankrupt over "YOURs" ? Then nobody gets ANYTHING, except pink slips.

THAT would go far to solve the issues.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Chips on December 28, 2010, 06:41:35 PM
It doesn't matter if you are you, me or the United States of America, if you continue to spend more money than you have, you will go bankrupt.
The Chinese will someday soon, call in our loans and foreclose on our Country's debt.
Our Country will be taken from us without a shot being fired.
Argue this.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on December 28, 2010, 06:45:40 PM
It doesn't matter if you are you, me or the United States of America, if you continue to spend more money than you have, you go bankrupt.
The Chinese will someday soon, call in our loans and foreclose on our Country's debt.
Our Country will be taken from us without a shot being fired.
Argue this.
Agreed spending needs to decrease, but why did I have to take a pay cut before those spending cuts?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Tiny on December 28, 2010, 11:08:36 PM
It doesn't matter if you are you, me or the United States of America, if you continue to spend more money than you have, you will go bankrupt.
The Chinese will someday soon, call in our loans and foreclose on our Country's debt.
Our Country will be taken from us without a shot being fired.
Argue this.


What are these loans secured with? What can they take?

Is China Building the Next Bubble?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-503983_162-503983.html?keyword=treasurys (http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-503983_162-503983.html?keyword=treasurys)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SPOOKYTOOTH on December 29, 2010, 07:22:53 AM
What are these loans secured with? What can they take?

Is China Building the Next Bubble?

[url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-503983_162-503983.html?keyword=treasurys[/url] ([url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-503983_162-503983.html?keyword=treasurys[/url])


They are secured with America, first and foremost the land as in minerals, resources, property, and finally the people themselves; though i do not believe much has been presented on that final "resource". But here's one other point I made in a conversation with a know it all... he stated that if China tried to collect on its debts and tried to enslave him he would simply buy his freedom by paying his share of the national debt and remaining free. I asked if he would be doing that in U.S. dollars... the SAME U.S. dollars the U.S. government keeps devaluing and that China is dumping as its means of exchange ?

His reply took a few moments but he self assuredly re-assured me, as many on MT have, that WE, as in the U.S. , CONTROL China's economy... and that WE, as in the U.S. ... the WORLD'S PERMIER DEBTOR NATION ...  would never let that happen! We would go to war first... and kick their 'yellow butts' ...         

To which I asked which CHINESE owned military bases this attack would be coming from, and which CHINESE designed weapons we would be using, and which CHINESE designed satellites we would be using for navagation and logistics, and how much CHINESE rations, clothing, and equipment we would be utilizing for this attack....   oh, and how many CHINESE NUCLEAR WARHEADS THE START  TREATY DOES AWAY WITH?... I also asked him how many F-22 's we would be using in air combat with the CHINESE, as it is our most advanced fighter that was DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY TO EVADE CHINESE DEFENSES... he replied "all of them".  I stated that would be rather difficult as production was stopped, publically as the result of budgetary cuts, but privately as a means to secure more "grace" from.... CHINA and CHINESE investors.

The result of this was predictable, as will be the replies here... I was adjucated as being insane and not knowing what the F I was talking about, and talking out my ***.

To which I replied..."[ keep those sentiments in mind when some day in the future you want to take a day off work for your kid's b-day and the CHINESE boss says ' F yer kid's B-day, get back to work, you're now workin a 24 instead of a 12 for bein so efin lazy '.... and whatcha gonna do? Quit the job and go work for the other CHINAMAN down the street ...?

Americans like to believe in themselves....  and enjoy their lifestyles and toys, yet all these things are at the behest of those who will one day be our MASTERS. They may not use whips and chains, but then what is ECONOMIC and POLITICAL slavery if not whips and chains?

And the ironic part? The same mentality that allowed it to begin is permitting and espousing its furtherance. So Americans can continue to enjoy their TOYS.

I don't see the TOYS as being worth the price, but most in America and on MT do....and as Americans are willing to DIE to uphold MAJORITY RULE... they get what they ask for.     
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on December 29, 2010, 11:19:43 AM
What are these loans secured with? What can they take?

Is China Building the Next Bubble?

[url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-503983_162-503983.html?keyword=treasurys[/url] ([url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-503983_162-503983.html?keyword=treasurys[/url])

What are these loans secured with?

Everything everyone thinks they "own".

"The Fed Note is essentially unsound. It is the worst currency and the most dangerous that this Country has ever known. When the proponents of the act saw that the Democratic doctrine bawould not permit them to let the proposed banks issue the new currency as bank notes, they should have stopped at that. They should not have foisted that kind of currency, namely, an asset currency, on the United States Government. They should not have made the Government [liable on the private] debts of individuals and corporations, and, least of all, on the private debts of foreigners. "As Kemerer says: 'The Fed Notes, therefore, in form, have some of the qualities of Government paper money, but in substance, are almost a pure asset currency possessing a Government guarantee against which contingency the Government has made no provision whatever.'

http://www.afn.org/~govern/mcfadden.html (http://www.afn.org/~govern/mcfadden.html)

What can they take?

Everything that's left.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Professor H on December 29, 2010, 11:33:46 AM
It doesn't matter if you are you, me or the United States of America, if you continue to spend more money than you have, you will go bankrupt.
The Chinese will someday soon, call in our loans and foreclose on our Country's debt.
Our Country will be taken from us without a shot being fired.
Argue this.
I remember the same sentiments about Japan taking us over in the 80's.

China won't call in the debts and cause the world markets to crash,  they want us to keep sending our money to them as it keeps their machine rolling.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on December 29, 2010, 01:27:03 PM
I remember the same sentiments about Japan taking us over in the 80's.

China won't call in the debts and cause the world markets to crash,  they want us to keep sending our money to them as it keeps their machine rolling.

Prof:

I read the other day the Chinese, from Oct. 09 to Oct. 2010 had reduced the amount U.S. dollars they are holding by $ 32 billion.
More perilous is the question of whether the Chinese are going to cover our future deficits. If not them, then who? A broke European Union? And if there are no takers, or not nearly enough takers for Treasuries to cover the deficits, will the Federal Reserve be making
a 9 or 10 digit entries on a keyboard to cover? Or will we have to raise interest rates to attract the money and see our interest costs on the debt double tripple etc. Really scary stuff. Drown due to horrific hyper
inflation, or impoverished paying huge interest payments on the debt.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on December 29, 2010, 01:52:04 PM
Prof:

I read the other day the Chinese, from Oct. 09 to Oct. 2010 had reduced the amount U.S. dollars they are holding by $ 32 billion.
More perilous is the question of whether the Chinese are going to cover our future deficits. If not them, then who? A broke European Union? And if there are no takers, or not nearly enough takers for Treasuries to cover the deficits, will the Federal Reserve be making
a 9 or 10 digit entries on a keyboard to cover? Or will we have to raise interest rates to attract the money and see our interest costs on the debt double tripple etc. Really scary stuff. Drown due to horrific hyper
inflation, or impoverished paying huge interest payments on the debt.
Too bad your Party insisted on giving to the rich.

In fact it's a shame the way they sat on their hands for their own selfish political gain.

They've certainly succeeded in making everything worse and somehow have interpreted that as a will of the people to continue.

And undoubtedly they'll take credit for any perceived improvement to the economy....hopefully there will be at least some improvement....despite the efforts of the Republicans to destroy America.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on December 29, 2010, 05:58:08 PM
Well FF if you're so concerned about the government not being "given"
enough money, why don't "you" step up? Clearly the plus or minus
$ 600.00 the government "gives" you each year to spend on internet access serves no worthwhile purpose. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: PXaiver on December 29, 2010, 06:29:12 PM
Well FF if you're so concerned about the government not being "given"
enough money, why don't "you" step up? Clearly the plus or minus
$ 600.00 the government "gives" you each year to spend on internet access serves no worthwhile purpose. 

That statement is relative.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on January 01, 2011, 11:06:09 PM
Well FF if you're so concerned about the government not being "given"
enough money, why don't "you" step up? Clearly the plus or minus
$ 600.00 the government "gives" you each year to spend on internet access serves no worthwhile purpose.
Are you saying 'net access is subsidized?

And judging by the right-wing garbage you've spread as if factual, you have some nerve criticizing me.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on January 02, 2011, 12:32:37 AM
Completely naive but honest question's for anyone who cares to answer...just how difficult would it be to retract our current trade policies (IE: NAFTA, etc) and bring the jobs back? Is that even a feasible goal? Is it true the Fed is loaning money to Japanese car companies? And did they have to go before public Congressional scrutiny to get the loans as their American counterparts did? Finally, if hedge fund billionaire's are moving US corporate dollars to the Cayman Islands to avoid taxes, has anyone gone after them to bring our tax dollars back? 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on January 07, 2011, 07:02:26 PM
Price of gasolene is rising. Appears to me this is a combination of the sinking value of the dollar, Obama administration adversion to more drilling and then speculators piling on. I see predictions for $ 4.00 to $ 5.00 per gallon this year. Then we have the EPA dumping new emission regs that will cost power plants, manufacturers etc. billions upon billions to comply with. Of course all these mega buck costs will then be past on to consumers.

Once again we have the Federal Reserve, and the Federal government,
teaming up to drive the economy even further into the ground. And I get so
upset and frustrated. Are these so called leaders stupid, evil, or mad?

And I think of our founding Fathers and the thoughts they had that compelled them to write "When in the course of human events ..............."
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on January 07, 2011, 07:44:43 PM
Completely naive but honest question's for anyone who cares to answer...just how difficult would it be to retract our current trade policies (IE: NAFTA, etc) and bring the jobs back? Is that even a feasible goal?

Not likely to be done.

Quote
Is it true the Fed is loaning money to Japanese car companies?

Yes they did.
Quote
And did they have to go before public Congressional scrutiny to get the loans as their American counterparts did?

no.

Quote
Finally, if hedge fund billionaire's are moving US corporate dollars to the Cayman Islands to avoid taxes, has anyone gone after them to bring our tax dollars back? 

Been going on decades, and no.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on January 07, 2011, 08:11:33 PM
Tax council recommends grocery tax, lower income taxes


By Chris Joyner
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Business groups hailed recommendations announced Friday to cut Georgia's income tax rate and rely more on consumer taxes, including a tax on groceries, leading advocates to warn the proposal would hurt the poor and elderly.

 The Special Council on Tax Reform and Fairness recommends adding a 4 percent sales tax to groceries but lowering the personal income tax from its current 6 percent to 4 percent by 2014.

The report by the Special Council on Tax Reform and Fairness recommends reducing the personal income tax from 6 percent to 4 percent by 2014 and a comparable decrease for corporate income tax rates.

The council proposes making up that revenue by charging sales tax to more services and adding it back to groceries for the first time in 15 years.

The recommendations confirmed what many observers expected when the council began its work six months ago. Kyle Jackson, Georgia state director of the National Federation of Independent Business, released a statement praising the effort within minutes of the release of the 97-page report.

"There’s a lot here to digest, but we were especially glad to see that the council wants to reduce personal income taxes," he said. "That’s a big issue with our members, because many of them are sole proprietorships and pay taxes on their businesses at the personal tax rate."

http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/tax-council-recommends-grocery-797997.html (http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/tax-council-recommends-grocery-797997.html)

The answer is.....    Take from the poor to give to the rich.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on January 07, 2011, 09:38:57 PM
Duck:
On the surface I don't think much of the Georgia plan your article talks about. But here is the thing. I've read where the bottom 50% of the population pays 3% of income taxes. A majority of these folks pay nothing, many even get checks. So how will we ever get Congress to get spending under control when an ever growing segment of their constituents don't feel any financial pain whatsoever when federal spending goes up, and up, and up, and the deficit continues to explode? These folks need to get financially smacked up side the head to get their attention. Then we might have a chance.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on January 08, 2011, 12:22:07 AM
Thanks for replying Ducksoup...it's a shame we can't get enough voter's interested in changing our international trade laws. And John Kopke..how much more smacked upside the head do you want people with no money to get?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on January 08, 2011, 02:16:24 PM
Kopke seems unable to understand the concept of discretionary income yet his prior post mentioned costs being passed on to consumers....

I guess one has to experience hardship for themselves to gain a better understanding.

And those EPA regs....consider them not only in terms of clean air and water but also in terms of an economic stimulus.

Jobs, jobs, jobs!

Hillary Claims She "Spoke Out Against" NAFTA
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/03/hillary-claims.html (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/03/hillary-claims.html)
Was Ross Perot Right on NAFTA? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRvJ-o30Sk8#)
Ralph Nader on International Trade, NAFTA, and the WTO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-264RGiBWk#)
Giant Sucking Sound - Ross Perot 1992 Presidential Debate.flv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkgx1C_S6ls#)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on January 09, 2011, 09:37:17 PM
Quote from FF"
"Kopke seems unable to understand the concept of discretionary income yet his prior post mentioned costs being passed on to consumers....

I guess one has to experience hardship for themselves to gain a better understanding.

And those EPA regs....consider them not only in terms of clean air and water but also in terms of an economic stimulus.

Jobs, jobs, jobs!"

FF:
I understand the concept of discretionary income perfectly.

The EPA regs are going to noticibly raise costs on power plants, manufacturers etc., as I stated. These costs will be passed on to the folks in higher power bills and higher costs for the products they buy.
Therefore people will end up with less discretionary income after purchasing those basics that cost less than they did before the EPA regs. This means they will have less to purchase discretionary items.
A further drag on the economy.

Point I was trying to make on taxing the bottom 50%. Unless you've been living in outerspace our country is big time broke. If something isn't done about this, and soon, we're sunk. And it isn't a matter that
we need to squeeze dollars out of these folks as the solution. The problem is we have a ever growing segment of our population that
has no skin in the game. Majority of these folks take more than they give, and the percentage is growing. How can we ever cut spending and get our fiscal house in order when takers vote for reps. promising more and more. And if something isn't done these are the folks that are going to get clobbered the most when the bottom falls out.

Course FF's argument is just just another, of many, illustrations that demonstrate he has absolutely no concept of the the big picture.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on January 09, 2011, 11:45:11 PM


The problem is we have a ever growing segment of our population that
has no skin in the game. Majority of these folks take more than they give, and the percentage is growing. How can we ever cut spending and get our fiscal house in order when takers vote for reps. promising more and more. And if something isn't done these are the folks that are going to get clobbered the most when the bottom falls out.


I totally agree. The IDEAL solution is to give them all a J.O.B....unfortunately none of them can afford passports.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on January 10, 2011, 11:54:21 AM
I totally agree. The IDEAL solution is to give them all a J.O.B....unfortunately none of them can afford passports.

313:

Unemployment was 5.8% in 2008. It didn't rise 4% because the jobs went overseas. They disappeared with the financial meltdown.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on January 10, 2011, 12:35:24 PM
313:

Unemployment was 5.8% in 2008. It didn't rise 4% because the jobs went overseas. They disappeared with the financial meltdown.
Caused by the GOP and the Republican Party also made sure the numbers didn't improve so the electorate would blame Obama and the Democratic Party......unbelievably their plan worked....people have such short memories.

But going further back to causation of job losses....the Republican plan of NAFTA certainly did cause that giant sucking sound Ross Perot warned us about.

Now that the Republicans regained their foothold....the thread title seems quite appropriate.   
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on January 10, 2011, 02:03:43 PM
313:

Unemployment was 5.8% in 2008. It didn't rise 4% because the jobs went overseas. They disappeared with the financial meltdown.


In what state? Not this one.

http://www.google.com/search?q=michigan+unemployment+rate+history&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbs=tl:1,tll:2008/01,tlh:2008/12&prmd=ivns&ei=0lYrTYi1KpCdnwft-8DXAQ&ved=0CGwQyQEoCQ (http://www.google.com/search?q=michigan+unemployment+rate+history&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbs=tl:1,tll:2008/01,tlh:2008/12&prmd=ivns&ei=0lYrTYi1KpCdnwft-8DXAQ&ved=0CGwQyQEoCQ)


Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on January 10, 2011, 02:14:08 PM
Fry....if I researched this correctly, Bush Sr. and Reagan started the negotiations, but NAFTA was signed into law by Clinton after it passed both the Democrat majority controlled House and Senate in 1993.

http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/NAFTA_History.htm (http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/NAFTA_History.htm)

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_political_party_controlled_the_house_and_senate_during_the_Clinton_years (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_political_party_controlled_the_house_and_senate_during_the_Clinton_years)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on January 10, 2011, 02:40:50 PM
Fry....if I researched this correctly, Bush Sr. and Reagan started the negotiations, but NAFTA was signed into law by Clinton after it passed both the Democrat majority controlled House and Senate in 1993.

[url]http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/NAFTA_History.htm[/url] ([url]http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/NAFTA_History.htm[/url])

[url]http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_political_party_controlled_the_house_and_senate_during_the_Clinton_years[/url] ([url]http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_political_party_controlled_the_house_and_senate_during_the_Clinton_years[/url])

His response is going to be it was the Democrats trying to make a deal with those stupid repubes.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on January 10, 2011, 04:17:09 PM
Fry....if I researched this correctly, Bush Sr. and Reagan started the negotiations, but NAFTA was signed into law by Clinton after it passed both the Democrat majority controlled House and Senate in 1993.

[url]http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/NAFTA_History.htm[/url] ([url]http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/NAFTA_History.htm[/url])

[url]http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_political_party_controlled_the_house_and_senate_during_the_Clinton_years[/url] ([url]http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_political_party_controlled_the_house_and_senate_during_the_Clinton_years[/url])

It was originally brought up during the Reagan administration. Bush I signed the agreement with the Canadians, and the Mexicans in '92. It was ratified by congress in '93 by the Clinton Administration.

It is STILL a crappy piece of legislation, regardless of where it came from.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on January 10, 2011, 04:32:03 PM
Oh, Lord, I agree FB!

I just wanted to verify for myself what parties were involved in it.  Clinton claims it as one of his key pieces (except Monica) he pushed through.  Looks like the R's began the discussions, but D's passed it into law.  Both parties are guilty in this piece of garbage that has pretty well choked the manufacturing jobs out of this country.

Bring on that 3rd party.....the two we have appear to have failed the middle class to me.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on January 10, 2011, 08:20:30 PM
NAFTA
Following diplomatic negotiations dating back to 1986 among the three nations, the leaders met in San Antonio, Texas, on December 17, 1992, to sign NAFTA. U.S. President George H. W. Bush, Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and Mexican President Carlos Salinas, each responsible for spearheading and promoting the agreement, ceremonially signed it. The agreement then needed to be ratified by each nation's legislative or parliamentary branch.

Before the negotiations were finalized, Bill Clinton came into office in the U.S. and Kim Campbell in Canada, and before the agreement became law, Jean Chrétien had taken office in Canada.
Bill Clinton had become president of the U.S. before the agreement came into force, and is seen here signing the U.S. implementation legislation.

The proposed Canada-U.S.trade agreement had been extremely controversial and divisive in Canada, and the 1988 Canadian election was fought almost exclusively on that issue. In that election more Canadians voted for anti-free trade parties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement)

The North American Free Trade Agreement: Ronald Reagan's Vision Realized
From one of the ultimate right-wing sites:
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/1993/11/em371-the-north-american-free-trade-agreement (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/1993/11/em371-the-north-american-free-trade-agreement)

Reagan is a GOD to those idiots.

Republican ideas have been failures.

And I've often said NAFTA has been a giant stain on the record of Clinton.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: tree hugging liberal on January 10, 2011, 09:19:30 PM
 Outstanding post as usual Fry
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on January 11, 2011, 06:28:25 AM
I think it would be Clinton's second stain, Fry.   ;)

If I read correctly, the passage went through Congress when both House and Senate were in control of the Democrats.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on January 11, 2011, 09:46:46 AM
I think it would be Clinton's second stain, Fry.   ;)

If I read correctly, the passage went through Congress when both House and Senate were in control of the Democrats.

Now now, Fuzz, there you go throwing logic into Frenchie's delusions!  NAFTA (and everything else that turned out bad) is the fault of Republicans, and ONLY Republicans.  Uh, it just LOOKED like Democrats were controlling congress at the time.  Yeah, that's it!     8*

If the Republicans were stupid for coming up with NAFTA, then the Democratic congress and Democratic President were even MORE stupid for signing it into law.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on January 11, 2011, 09:50:47 AM
Now now, Fuzz, there you go throwing logic into Frenchie's delusions!  NAFTA (and everything else that turned out bad) is the fault of Republicans, and ONLY Republicans.  Uh, it just LOOKED like Democrats were controlling congress at the time.  Yeah, that's it!     8*
He already stated that it was a blemish on Clinton's record, so I don't know who is the one being delusional.

Quote

If the Republicans were stupid for coming up with NAFTA, then the Democratic congress and Democratic President were even MORE stupid for signing it into law.
I don't disagree with this point. They were both stupid when it came to this piece of legislation. Just as I stated earlier.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on January 11, 2011, 10:05:50 AM
He already stated that it was a blemish on Clinton's record, so I don't know who is the one being delusional.

No Fluffy, I stand by my statement regarding Frenchfry's delusions of Democratic grandeur.  He stated it was a blemish on Clinton's record - not the Democrats as a whole.  Then in the same breathe he condemns all Republicans that have ever existed because NAFTA was the idea of one Republican.

You can't have it both ways - unless you conveniently overlook certain historical facts.  That is delusional.


Personally, I think that most Republicans AND most Democrats are self-serving nut-case politicians, that don't have a clue what it's like to survive in the real world.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on January 11, 2011, 02:35:14 PM
Posted in the Smith topic:
It's amazing how the personalities on this forum are so predictable.   :D
Looks like you've proven yours words to be prophetic.  :D
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on January 11, 2011, 02:45:06 PM
Quote
In 1988 Canada and the United States signed the Canada-United States Free Trade Agreement after which the U.S. Congress approved implementing legislation.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement[/url])

FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 575
NORTH AMERICAN FREE TRADE AGREEMENT IMPLEMENTATION ACT
17-Nov-1993

Democratic
AYES 102
NOES 156

Republican
AYES 132
NOES 43

Independent
AYES 0
NOES 1
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1993/roll575.xml (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1993/roll575.xml)

Democrats tried to do the correct thing but failed.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on January 11, 2011, 02:53:46 PM
FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 575
NORTH AMERICAN FREE TRADE AGREEMENT IMPLEMENTATION ACT
17-Nov-1993

Democratic
AYES 102
NOES 156

Republican
AYES 132
NOES 43

Independent
AYES 0
NOES 1
[url]http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1993/roll575.xml[/url] ([url]http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1993/roll575.xml[/url])

Democrats tried to do the correct thing but failed.

Yeah 102 of them tried to do the right thing? I may agree they tried to do the right thing if they had more against it, but they didn't. Let me guess those 102 were really republicans, but since no one wants to vote for one they ran as democrats?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on January 11, 2011, 02:56:10 PM
Thanks, Fry.....I couldn't find the actual tally.

Do you have a link that showed how both parties voted?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on January 11, 2011, 03:47:00 PM
Thanks, Fry.....I couldn't find the actual tally.

Do you have a link that showed how both parties voted?
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=103&session=1&vote=00395 (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=103&session=1&vote=00395)

(Democrats in roman; Republicans in italic; Independents underlined)
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1993/roll575.xml (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1993/roll575.xml)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on January 11, 2011, 04:02:25 PM
Yeah 102 of them tried to do the right thing? I may agree they tried to do the right thing if they had more against it, but they didn't. Let me guess those 102 were really republicans, but since no one wants to vote for one they ran as democrats?
Conservative Blue Dogs may account for some of the mistakes....may have been some arm twisting and backroom deals for the other spineless cretins....it is politics you know.
102 D's and 132 R's passed it.
156 D's and  43 R's voted against NAFTA
Bill Clinton screwed up.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on January 11, 2011, 06:12:21 PM
But the decline in their fortunes points to a signature outcome of the long downturn in the labor market. Even at times of high unemployment in the past, wages have been very slow to fall; economists describe them as "sticky." To an extent rarely seen in recessions since the Great Depression, wages for a swath of the labor force this time have taken a sharp and swift fall.

The only other downturn since the Depression to see similarly large wage cuts was the 1981-82 recession. But the latest downturn is already eclipsing that one. Unemployment has stood above 9% for 20 straight months—longer than the early 1980s stretch—and is likely to remain above that level for most of 2011, putting downward pressure on wages.

Many laid-off workers who have found new jobs are taking pay cuts or settling for part-time work when they get new ones, sometimes taking jobs far below their skill levels.

Economists had wondered how far this dynamic would go in this recession, and now the numbers are starting to show it: Between 2007 and 2009, more than half the full-time workers who lost jobs that they had held for at least three years and then found new full-time work by early last year reported wage declines, according to the Labor Department. Thirty-six percent reported the new job paid at least 20% less than the one they lost.

The severity of the latest downturn makes it likely that many of the unemployed who get rehired will take wage cuts, and that it will be years, if ever, before many of their wages return to pre-recession levels, says Columbia University labor economist Till von Wachter. "The deeper the recession, the lower the wage you're going to get in the next job and the lower the quality of your next job," he says.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304248704575574213897770830.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304248704575574213897770830.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond)

Yeah, the workers have it soooo good, they need to be kicked in the posterior with higher taxes so those that own the jobs can benefit from lower taxes AND lower paying jobs.  Cut their Social Security so that not only will those now on it have to get some of those low paying jobs, but those that come along later won't even think of retiring.

But, hey if they increase the amount each person has to pay to SS, and limit payouts then gosh, that nifty little fund that the government has used all along as revenue will just get bigger.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on January 11, 2011, 06:33:24 PM
Duck:
Clearly you're on a screed to demonstrate how heartless I am. Yet you can't seem to get a handle on the fact the country is broke and the dollar is going to be trashed if we don't cut spending dramatically, and
soon. If the dollar goes down the tube all bets are off. It is imperative that both sides of the aisle come together to seriously address the debt problem. Frankly, I don't see your side taking this situation very seriously. On the other hand, I'm watching to see what my side is going to actually do.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on January 11, 2011, 06:42:51 PM
Not sure why you are so defensive, I didn't address that to you, or even have you in mind when I did it; but, if you feel guilty, who am I to say otherwise.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on January 11, 2011, 06:54:20 PM
Not sure why you are so defensive, I didn't address that to you, or even have you in mind when I did it; but, if you feel guilty, who am I to say otherwise.

Sorry. Assumed since most others were coming after me that it was just natural for you to pile on. No matter.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on January 11, 2011, 06:57:33 PM

John.. When exactly did the Dollar tank?  How long has it been at its current value? 

To my recollection it tanked around 2002... and has pretty much been the same since... If anything it has gained since its lowest point..  I know I have bought merchandise from Britain and Australia...  I checked the currency rates the other day, and the dollar was worth 14 cents more than it was a year or so ago... and there was a 6 cent difference in Australia..

Yet post after post you sound like the dollar is falling off the face of the earth... like this is something that just happened because of the deficit...

To me it lost its value years ago and has been doing what the dollar does... go up and down depending on where investors are putting their currency in at that particular time..

So in 2002 when it really was dropping, were you this worried?  Has it been with you all this time?  What a guy...

Do I think we will ever see the day that that the dollar will be as strong as it was during the Clinton years... noooope!

There are too many variables that the economy is dealing with... yes it would be nice to cut the deficit.. but we will stick to the status quot because Obama is too busy trying to please the right...

and the right is forcing the center to the far right of center... there is no middle left!

So we had what your ideologies are for 8 years that got us in this Republican utopia... We had nothing but belligerence from the GOP the past two years.. They did expose what I have always said was the Democrats weakness really is... They don't fall into rank when asked...

So we will have a Republican Congress that can create bills and do all sorts of things.. I am pretty sure the witch hunt will begin... They have the power of subpoena... So lets see what your teabag Republicans can do!!!  Lets see where their focus will be!

Because all the problems that caused the crash are still here... and some of the stimulus is working its way into the economy... So lets see if they can do some change... or if it will be the same, crusty old stuff that benefit those who need it the least...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on January 11, 2011, 07:22:52 PM


Here is a site where you can check the Dollar against the Euro... you can go back to 1995... I was not off on when the Dollar started to drop... Late in 2002... you can check the monthly average each year..

When you are talking about the devaluation of the dollar, this is what you are talking about.. correct?  How the dollar performs against other currencies?

http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/CAD/hist1995.html (http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/CAD/hist1995.html)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on January 11, 2011, 07:32:03 PM


I seem to recall back when Bush was president... before the people who voted for him turned on him.. for most of you that was October 2008... 

Anyway... I recall talking about how the Dollar was performing and this was in the context about how much debt Bush had placed us in because of the money he borrowed from China to pay for the war..

At the time I had written about if the Chinese wanted to be paid back, if they wanted it in Euros we would be in more debt because of the exchange rate... At the time there were rumblings that since the dollar was so devalued, and the Chinese were investing heavily on Euros driving up their currency that if China did want to be paid in Euros they could bankrupt the United States...

Does anyone else remember discussing this? 

More importantly... does anyone remember what John said then...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on January 11, 2011, 07:39:08 PM
John.. When exactly did the Dollar tank?  How long has it been at its current value? 

To my recollection it tanked around 2002... and has pretty much been the same since... If anything it has gained since its lowest point..  I know I have bought merchandise from Britain and Australia...  I checked the currency rates the other day, and the dollar was worth 14 cents more than it was a year or so ago... and there was a 6 cent difference in Australia..

Yet post after post you sound like the dollar is falling off the face of the earth... like this is something that just happened because of the deficit...

To me it lost its value years ago and has been doing what the dollar does... go up and down depending on where investors are putting their currency in at that particular time..

So in 2002 when it really was dropping, were you this worried?  Has it been with you all this time?  What a guy...

Do I think we will ever see the day that that the dollar will be as strong as it was during the Clinton years... noooope!

There are too many variables that the economy is dealing with... yes it would be nice to cut the deficit.. but we will stick to the status quot because Obama is too busy trying to please the right...

and the right is forcing the center to the far right of center... there is no middle left!

So we had what your ideologies are for 8 years that got us in this Republican utopia... We had nothing but belligerence from the GOP the past two years.. They did expose what I have always said was the Democrats weakness really is... They don't fall into rank when asked...

So we will have a Republican Congress that can create bills and do all sorts of things.. I am pretty sure the witch hunt will begin... They have the power of subpoena... So lets see what your teabag Republicans can do!!!  Lets see where their focus will be!

Because all the problems that caused the crash are still here... and some of the stimulus is working its way into the economy... So lets see if they can do some change... or if it will be the same, crusty old stuff that benefit those who need it the least...

Well Chicken I don't have the time or energy to answer point by point.
I would suggest you read carefully through Smash's Gold and Silver topic to better educate yourself on monetary policy.

Since 1913 our fiat Federal reserve notes have lost 96% of their value.
Today when the government calculates inflation, they leave out the rising costs of energy and food. Filled your tank lately?

Nice to cut the deficit? Chicken in the last couple years the gov't has spent 40% more than they took in. Expect the same in 2011. Would you loan money to a friend spending 40% more than their income for three years running?

Would you participate in a poker game where you put in $ 20.00 for 20 chips and then let the game's banker just hand out another 10 chips to each player and then let the banker cash out his 30 chips for $ 30.00? Think about it.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on January 11, 2011, 08:07:42 PM
More importantly... does anyone remember what John said then...
Can't say that I do. I tend to forget things that don't make sense. Like the 60 Coal to Oil plants that are supposed to be being built in the European Union. Or how we will soon be wishing that we would only be paying $4 a gallon for gas. Or that we should sell all our stocks because the market is on the verge of collapse.

Etc, Etc, Etc.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: T-M-T on January 11, 2011, 08:24:04 PM
Well Chicken I don't have the time or energy to answer point by point.
I would suggest you read carefully through Smash's Gold and Silver topic to better educate yourself on monetary policy.

Chicken already has a better-than-average grasp on monetary policy.  Even if she didn't, I find it laughable that you suggest she "educate" herself by reading the rantings of a gullible, uneducated, failed small business owner who whips himself into a frenzy by watching Youtube videos and believes in wacko conspiracy theories about 9/11 among others.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on January 11, 2011, 08:54:41 PM
Chicken already has a better-than-average grasp on monetary policy.  Even if she didn't, I find it laughable that you suggest she "educate" herself by reading the rantings of a gullible, uneducated, failed small business owner who whips himself into a frenzy by watching Youtube videos and believes in wacko conspiracy theories about 9/11 among others.

T-M-T:
You say Chicken has a better than average grasp on monetary policy.
Maybe so. And if so, we're in real trouble. All in all I'll follow the lead of Smash on monetary policy and and you can get your knowledge from Chicken.

I've seen you match up with Smash on things monetary and you should be embarrassed, not truckulent. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on January 11, 2011, 09:03:17 PM
what is  "truckulent" ?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on January 11, 2011, 09:06:06 PM
T-M-T:
You say Chicken has a better than average grasp on monetary policy.
Maybe so. And if so, we're in real trouble. All in all I'll follow the lead of Smash on monetary policy and and you can get your knowledge from Chicken.

I've seen you match up with Smash on things monetary and you should be embarrassed, not truckulent. 
John, if you are going to TRY and sound intelligent by using uncommon words, you might at least spell them correctly.

Now I better be careful, or you'll call me TRUCKULENT too. 8*

Now, who is the one who should be embarrassed? hmmmm? LMAO!!!!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on January 11, 2011, 09:09:28 PM
what is  "truckulent" ?
Isn't that when your truck goes off the road and goes upside-down?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: T-M-T on January 11, 2011, 09:23:19 PM
This reminds me of a classic Howard Cosell interview of Muhammad Ali.


Cosell: "You're being extremely truculent."

Ali: "Whatever 'truculent' means, if it's good, I'm that."
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on January 11, 2011, 09:29:05 PM

John has been using several fancy words lately... I was beginning to think he had received a word of the day calendar for Christmas...

Alas.. you can always tell when John "hears" a word versus reading or actually uses the word outside of trying to impress us here on MT...  I feel honored..  8)

For that we should thank him... not only does he repeat what he hears... He provides endless hours of entertainment and broadens our horizons... Look at how we question ourselves when we read his words... 

have you ever considered being a fiction writer? 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on January 14, 2011, 11:51:41 PM
Isn't it something. John used a so called big word, and then he, heaven forbid, misspelled it on top of that! What a boob! How could anybody ever again take him seriously on anything?

Well the idea behind this topic, and the posts I, and others have made concern the perilous financial state of this country. Yet it is obvious from these last few posts, that those on the left, are more interested in finding a way to nitpick, or ridicule, a poster on absolutely innane nonsense, than face and address, the reality of the dire situation our country finds itself in.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on January 15, 2011, 08:31:03 AM
Isn't it something. John used a so called big word, and then he, heaven forbid, misspelled it on top of that! What a boob! How could anybody ever again take him seriously on anything?

Well the idea behind this topic, and the posts I, and others have made concern the perilous financial state of this country. Yet it is obvious from these last few posts, that those on the left, are more interested in finding a way to nitpick, or ridicule, a poster on absolutely innane nonsense, than face and address, the reality of the dire situation our country finds itself in.
First, you used the word, trying to "embarrass" someone, hence the hilarity of it all. Second, I have pointed out several reasons why you can't be taken seriously. Last, you and a few others on here are screaming about runaway inflation, when I have already posted in another topic that the only cost that is currently rising is fuel prices, while EVERYTHING ELSE has remained pretty much the same.

But please continue with YOUR inane responses.

You crack me up.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: BigRedDog on January 15, 2011, 08:45:51 AM
Isn't it something. John used a so called big word, and then he, heaven forbid, misspelled it on top of that! What a boob! How could anybody ever again take him seriously on anything?

Well the idea behind this topic, and the posts I, and others have made concern the perilous financial state of this country. Yet it is obvious from these last few posts, that those on the left, are more interested in finding a way to nitpick, or ridicule, a poster on absolutely innane nonsense, than face and address, the reality of the dire situation our country finds itself in.

Some of us quit taking you "seriously" a long, long, long time ago...  like after about

your 3rd "rant" 8* 8* 8*
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on January 15, 2011, 12:58:06 PM
Chicken already has a better-than-average grasp on monetary policy.  Even if she didn't, I find it laughable that you suggest she "educate" herself by reading the rantings of a gullible, uneducated, failed small business owner who whips himself into a frenzy by watching Youtube videos and believes in wacko conspiracy theories about 9/11 among others.
Failed small business owner?

Really?

Gullible, uneducated? Boy aren't we full of ourselves today?

When did my small business fail?

I'm still working here everyday.

Better get your story straight.

Matter of fact, I'm at the shop right now.  :P
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on January 15, 2011, 01:08:44 PM
Chicken already has a better-than-average grasp on monetary policy.  Even if she didn't, I find it laughable that you suggest she "educate" herself by reading the rantings of a gullible, uneducated, failed small business owner who whips himself into a frenzy by watching Youtube videos and believes in wacko conspiracy theories about 9/11 among others.

Among others?

Such as?

Please explain for us Building 7.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on January 16, 2011, 10:50:07 PM
Some of us quit taking you "seriously" a long, long, long time ago...  like after about

your 3rd "rant" 8* 8* 8*

Well Big Red you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I care one way or the other whether you, or your crowd, take me seriously. Thing is your crowd doesn't seem to take much of anything
seriously.   
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Collegekid on January 17, 2011, 04:43:23 AM
Well Big Red you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I care one way or the other whether you, or your crowd, take me seriously. Thing is your crowd doesn't seem to take much of anything
seriously.   


"Don't take life so seriously, you'll never get out alive."
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on January 17, 2011, 12:29:32 PM
Well Big Red you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I care one way or the other whether you, or your crowd, take me seriously. Thing is your crowd doesn't seem to take much of anything
seriously.   

Oh we do, just not you. 8*
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: T-M-T on January 17, 2011, 01:19:31 PM
Among others?

Such as?



The Bilderberg group and the CFR meet on a regular basis just to come up with schemes to keep you down, right?  Pretty laughable, and only a couple of the looney tunes things you’ve said that I can remember off the top of my head.  Oh yeah, the “taxes are unconstitutional” stuff is pretty funny (and wrong), too. 


Please explain for us Building 7.


I don’t need to explain it.  Numerous legitimate studies debunk the conspiracy theories.  Here’s one: http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTAR_1A_for_public_comment.pdf (http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTAR_1A_for_public_comment.pdf)

Google “World Trade Center” and “conspiracy.”  You’ll get hundreds of thousands of hits.  You’ll see how Jews were told to stay home that day and how the Pentagon was hit by a missile among many, many others.  The internet has plenty of fuel for all kinds of crazy thinking.  Fortunately, most of us can see through it.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: T-M-T on January 17, 2011, 01:26:57 PM

When did my small business fail?

I'm still working here everyday.

Better get your story straight.

Matter of fact, I'm at the shop right now.  :P

My mistake.  I thought I recalled you saying you had to close up, but maybe you just moved.  Always glad to see someone making money (even it's the worthless paper stuff), and we need the tax dollars.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on January 17, 2011, 01:31:46 PM


I think they have been watching Conspiracy Theory... With Jesse "The Governor" Ventura...   8)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on January 17, 2011, 01:39:28 PM
My mistake.  I thought I recalled you saying you had to close up, but maybe you just moved.  Always glad to see someone making money (even it's the worthless paper stuff), and we need the tax dollars.

My sister's husband has that and Fox News as his two favorite TV programs on his facebook.

I say my sister's husband, because I lay no claim to him whatsoever. :P
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on January 19, 2011, 05:19:55 PM
The Bilderberg group and the CFR meet on a regular basis just to come up with schemes to keep you down, right?  Pretty laughable, and only a couple of the looney tunes things you’ve said that I can remember off the top of my head.  Oh yeah, the “taxes are unconstitutional” stuff is pretty funny (and wrong), too. 

I don’t need to explain it.  Numerous legitimate studies debunk the conspiracy theories.  Here’s one: [url]http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTAR_1A_for_public_comment.pdf[/url] ([url]http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTAR_1A_for_public_comment.pdf[/url])

Google “World Trade Center” and “conspiracy.”  You’ll get hundreds of thousands of hits.  You’ll see how Jews were told to stay home that day and how the Pentagon was hit by a missile among many, many others.  The internet has plenty of fuel for all kinds of crazy thinking.  Fortunately, most of us can see through it.



The Bilderberg Group?

Oh, the collection of bankers, politicians, and the power elite that meet in secret/private every year?
Nope, nothing going on there.  8*

The warm and fuzzy folks over at the Council on Foreign Relations?

Oh, the folks that dictate our foreign policy and formulate the plans to secure and expand the empire?
Have you ever read any of their position papers? They are there for your viewing on their website. Ever looked at their membership list?
Nope, nothing going on over there.  8*

Taxes are Constitutional. I've read it more than a couple of times.  :o

You say legitimate studies and then put up a link to a another study done by the government, when you have members of the 911 Commission that don't even support their own report.  :D :D :D

There are over 1400 architects and engineers that know a hell of a lot more about it than I ever will that don't buy what the government is selling, neither do I.

Next.







 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on January 19, 2011, 05:23:05 PM
My mistake.  I thought I recalled you saying you had to close up, but maybe you just moved.  Always glad to see someone making money (even it's the worthless paper stuff), and we need the tax dollars.

I wish I was making money.
This economy and the season are killing me.

Who's "we"?
You work for the Federal Reserve or the IRS?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on January 19, 2011, 05:54:24 PM
I wish I was making money.
This economy and the season are killing me.

Who's "we"?
You work for the Federal Reserve or the IRS?
Perhaps you should accept those fiat dollars instead of limiting yourself to gold. JK
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on January 20, 2011, 12:39:35 AM
Perhaps you should accept those fiat dollars instead of limiting yourself to gold. JK

Little ridicule uh FF. Have you ever had the guts to start your own business? It is folks like Smash putting it on the line that give normal folks, and pukes like you, a job. Yet if they succeed you bash them as greedy SOB's.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on January 20, 2011, 07:46:48 AM
Little ridicule uh FF. Have you ever had the guts to start your own business? It is folks like Smash putting it on the line that give normal folks, and pukes like you, a job. Yet if they succeed you bash them as greedy SOB's.
John, relax up a little.  the JK at the end meant Just Kidding*...  I understood the humor/irony of his comment.  I think it unlikely that when I or others speak about business, which I generally label as corporations to distinguish (yeah, I know technically even a mom and pop store can be a corp.) the the difference. 

I noticed the other day that United Furniture sign says "closed" and the building is empty.  I don't know the reason, but it is still sad.

Earlier you accused BRD and the rest of us as not taking things so serious.  I believe you are wrong.  We don't take ourselves so seriously, but can see the seriousness of the problems.  If you can't relax up and not take yourself so serious about something you have very little control over it is going to be not beneficial to your health.

FF can get rude too often, in my opinion, but that wasn't one of them. 

* The use of a color for highlighting has no direct relation to anyone living or dead that may use those same colors.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: T-M-T on January 20, 2011, 10:40:09 AM

Who's "we"?


We the people of the United States

(It’s from some old piece of paper.)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on January 21, 2011, 04:55:50 PM
Little ridicule uh FF. Have you ever had the guts to start your own business? It is folks like Smash putting it on the line that give normal folks, and pukes like you, a job. Yet if they succeed you bash them as greedy SOB's.
Didn't call SMASH greedy.....just mentioned the mantra of the right.....the greed is good types.

Boy you sure love those golden niblets.....gives new meaning to the term corn-fed.  :D

Now go wash the brown off your nose before you embarrass yourself further.

Although I may have inadvertently discovered why they call guys like you brownshirts.  ;)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 07, 2011, 09:40:45 PM
Well the stage is set. Republicans are poised to make what I consider minor cuts in spending, and the Dems are poised to excoriate them for starving children. End result. We're going down. Greece II, times ten, and nobody can bail us out.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 07, 2011, 10:00:18 PM
Didn't call SMASH greedy.....just mentioned the mantra of the right.....the greed is good types.

FF:
Greed is good types. Which mean anybody who earns more money than you. Well FF you have enough money for internet service, keep a roof over you head, food on the table etc. Well their are a lot of folks, losing there homes, and practically on the street. Comparatively, you wealthy. Government needs to reach into you pocket to be able care for these folks. Course that's different. I imagine your tune would change if wasn't somebody else picking up the tab.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: PXaiver on February 08, 2011, 08:59:35 AM
FF:
Greed is good types. Which mean anybody who earns more money than you. Well FF you have enough money for internet service, keep a roof over you head, food on the table etc. Well their are a lot of folks, losing there homes, and practically on the street. Comparatively, you wealthy. Government needs to reach into you pocket to be able care for these folks. Course that's different. I imagine your tune would change if wasn't somebody else picking up the tab.

I wouldn't.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 08, 2011, 09:30:55 AM
FF:
Greed is good types. Which mean anybody who earns more money than you. Well FF you have enough money for internet service, keep a roof over you head, food on the table etc. Well their are a lot of folks, losing there homes, and practically on the street. Comparatively, you wealthy. Government needs to reach into you pocket to be able care for these folks. Course that's different. I imagine your tune would change if wasn't somebody else picking up the tab.
I keep hearing the question "How much is too much wealth?" from people like you John.

How much is enough? Is it enough money when you don't have to worry about doing anything for the rest of your life and you have 10 X as much as you could ever spend? Is that enough? Or do you then have to lie cheat and steal to make more?

For some, it will never be enough, and they will do ANYTHING to get it. THAT is what greed we are talking about John. But you don't have the capacity to understand what we are talking about.

You're either one of those types, or their lackey.

We are not talking about people who make $100,000 or $500,000 or even $1,000,000 a year. We are talking about people who left being drug dealers, and went into mortgage securities, because they could make more money and it was legal.

They don't care who they hurt, as long as they get theirs.

And it is people like you, that hold these people up on a pedestal, and aspire to be just like them.

You wonder what is wrong with this country? It's people like you John.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: old salt on February 08, 2011, 10:10:01 AM
I keep hearing the question "How much is too much wealth?" from people like you John.


....and yet you won't/can't answer the question.



For some, it will never be enough, and they will do ANYTHING to get it. THAT is what greed we are talking about John. But you don't have the capacity to understand what we are talking about.

We are not talking about people who make $100,000 or $500,000 or even $1,000,000 a year. We are talking about people who left being drug dealers, and went into mortgage securities, because they could make more money and it was legal.

They don't care who they hurt, as long as they get theirs.



Just who are they....can you provide names?  Be specific here FB, cause something put a bug up you.
....and don't forget the greediest of all - politicians.  They'll spend your money irregardless of how much we give them.  And what are Barney and his friends doing?  Propping up these same people.  And yet you have the nerve to denounce Kopke?


And it is people like you, that hold these people up on a pedestal, and aspire to be just like them.

You wonder what is wrong with this country? It's people like you John.

Kopke doesn't need me to defend him, but he's not what's wrong with this country.  If anyone is putting these people on a pedestal, it's you for supporting Barry, Barney, Tim and their banker buddies for fleecing the American people.  That's the greed you should be denouncing.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Tiny on February 08, 2011, 12:31:16 PM
"Capitalism", it's Mother Nature's way. "Only the strong survive".

If other countries are the strong, it's tough cookies for us.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 08, 2011, 01:29:28 PM
....and yet you won't/can't answer the question.
How much is enough? Answer my question, and I'll answer yours. I doubt I'll see any answer from you either.

Quote
Just who are they....can you provide names?  Be specific here FB, cause something put a bug up you.
....and don't forget the greediest of all - politicians.  They'll spend your money irregardless of how much we give them.  And what are Barney and his friends doing?  Propping up these same people.  And yet you have the nerve to denounce Kopke?

First, it's regardless, irregardless means the exact opposite of what you are trying to say, since it is a double negative. And, yes, I have the nerve to denounce Kopke. He is of the mindset that rich is good, and anyone who is poor is unworthy to lick his boots, regardless of how they got there.

Quote
Kopke doesn't need me to defend him, but he's not what's wrong with this country.  If anyone is putting these people on a pedestal, it's you for supporting Barry, Barney, Tim and their banker buddies for fleecing the American people.  That's the greed you should be denouncing.

Please PLEASE show a post where I was on the side of the bankers. I have posted time and again, how I believe that the bankers have fleeced this nation. I have also posted a thread stating that the Obama administration made a mistake by not issuing sanctions against the Chinese government for devaluing their currency in order to maintain a trade imbalance in their favor, further hurting U.S. manufacturers.

I have my opinions as to what is good and what isn't good about this administration. I think that having Barney Frank in the position he is in is a bad move, and there are plenty of other things that I don't agree with.

But, when I don't agree with them, it isn't because I think that Obama is a Socialistic Nazi, or that he's a secret Muslim that was born in Kenya, or any other cockamamie BS reason that so many others like to attribute to him. I don't agree with particular polices, and I state it as such.

But I disagree when statements are made like "The United States is about to become bankrupt, and we should build our bomb shelters, and start hoarding gold, because the world is coming to an end tomorrow".

The unemployment rate has been dropping, at a rate not seen in over 50 years. And while unemployment is still high, especially here in Michigan, there are more and more jobs available.
http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2011/02/04/the-good-news-about-the-surprisingly-bad-jobs-market/ (http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2011/02/04/the-good-news-about-the-surprisingly-bad-jobs-market/)
(I expected to get asked for a reference for that statement, so there you go).

Places are starting to hire. Manufacturing orders for durable goods are on the rise.

Are we out of the woods? HELL NO! But things are not as doom and gloom as some would have you believe.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: old salt on February 08, 2011, 02:08:16 PM
How much is enough? Answer my question, and I'll answer yours. I doubt I'll see any answer from you either.


I have no problems with someone getting as rich as they possibly can, legally of course.  And if it's not made legally, they should be stripped of every penny they earned/stole.


But I disagree when statements are made like "The United States is about to become bankrupt, and we should build our bomb shelters, and start hoarding gold, because the world is coming to an end tomorrow".


The US has been on the path to bankruptcy.  Who's calling attention to that fact.  Prior to November, nobody in DC.


The unemployment rate has been dropping, at a rate not seen in over 50 years. And while unemployment is still high, especially here in Michigan, there are more and more jobs available.
[url]http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2011/02/04/the-good-news-about-the-surprisingly-bad-jobs-market/[/url] ([url]http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2011/02/04/the-good-news-about-the-surprisingly-bad-jobs-market/[/url])
(I expected to get asked for a reference for that statement, so there you go).

Places are starting to hire. Manufacturing orders for durable goods are on the rise.

Are we out of the woods? HELL NO! But things are not as doom and gloom as some would have you believe.


Thanks for the reference.  I hope you read the comments, because that's the biggest spin of unemployment numbers I've ever read.

Things are not as doom and gloom as some would have you believe.  No thanks to Barry and his band of Chicago thugs.  I have no love for anyone in DC, but the latest TP candidates in DC are having their feet held to the fire.  You can thank me later. :)

Kopke may not be your cup of tea, but how you determine his mindset to '...poor is unworthy to lick his boots' is quite the stretch.  Barry on the other hand has shown his disdain for us common folk ever since he came onto the scene.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 08, 2011, 07:28:48 PM
I've written before about a point where the Pols pander to the mob until the takers completely overwelm the producers and chaos reins. Clower and Piven Strategy. Overload capitlism's ability to finance an unsustainably bloated welfare state.  We're almost there.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on February 08, 2011, 07:55:08 PM
I've written before about a point where the Pols pander to the mob until the takers completely overwelm the producers and chaos reins. Clower and Piven Strategy. Overload capitlism's ability to finance an unsustainably bloated welfare state.  We're almost there.


John, it is Cloward Piven.  Do you actually know what it is, or just the Glenn Beck version?  The idea was the total reverse of what you believe, or espouse it to believe.  They said that if there was a glut of people signing up for welfare then the government would be forced to make business pay livable wages to all.

The world need not always be all doom and gloom.

"I've written before about a point where the Pols pander to the mob.." Then aren't you violating your own argument by being a part of the tea party mob demanding the politicians attention?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on February 08, 2011, 08:16:00 PM
Cantor blasts Obama for encouraging job creation in Chamber speech
by Jed Lewison
Tue Feb 08, 2011 at 04:02:06 PM PST

They hate him so much that they even get mad when he encourages businesses to invest in America:

[House Majority Leader Eric] Cantor told reporters Tuesday that if given the opportunity, he will explain to the president that businesses do not have a “responsibility” to the nation or to the government in the way Obama explained in his speech to the Chamber of Commerce earlier this week.

...

“That’s not how it works,” Cantor said. “Because Washington says so — that business or anyone should respond as far as spending money — it’s just anathema to the way I think America works…Washington doesn’t just wave a magic wand and necessarily, business creates jobs.”

Cantor must have been watching an imaginary speech in his mind, because what President Obama actually said was that when businesses support the middle class, everybody gains. He encouraged them to invest in America instead of shipping jobs overseas. In Obama's own words:

If we as a nation are going to invest in innovation, that innovation should lead to new jobs and manufacturing on our shores.  The end result of tax breaks and investments can’t simply be that new breakthroughs and technologies are discovered here in America, but then the manufacturing takes place overseas.

What Obama said is indisputably correct. The fact that Eric Cantor disagrees is yet another illustration of just how completely the GOP has lost its s**t.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/2/8/942172/-Cantor-blasts-Obama-for-encouraging-job-creation-in-Chamber-speech (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/2/8/942172/-Cantor-blasts-Obama-for-encouraging-job-creation-in-Chamber-speech)

The tea party answer to jobs... export them.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on February 08, 2011, 09:10:39 PM
Why is Wall Street using billions of taxpayer dollars to finance projects for the ultra-rich?
by Chris in Paris on 2/08/2011 08:50:00 PM
 
This is beyond silly, but this is our Wall Street government. It would be nice to see a politician from either party either scrap this program immediately or at least return it to what it was supposed to be in the beginning. For all of the right wing talk about wealth distribution, the reality of programs like this and much of Washington's policies (both parties, of course) is about wealth distribution from the middle class and poor to the rich. Wall Street in particular has benefited from enough government handouts, so why are they still pilfering the system? Absolutely sickening.
The biggest beneficiary of taxpayer help for the Blackstone revamp was Prudential Financial Inc., the second-largest U.S. life insurer. The company got $15.6 million in tax credits from the U.S. Department of the Treasury for helping to fund the project, according to Chicago city records, Bloomberg Markets magazine reports in its March issue.

JPMorgan Chase & Co., the second-largest U.S. bank by assets, also took in money by serving as a lender and the monitor of Blackstone construction financing, city records show.

Since 2003, some of the world’s biggest financial companies, including Goldman Sachs Group Inc., U.S. Bancorp, JPMorgan Chase and Prudential, have taken advantage of a federal subsidy that will cost taxpayers $10.1 billion -- and most of the public has never heard of it.

http://www.americablog.com/2011/02/why-is-wall-street-using-billions-of.html (http://www.americablog.com/2011/02/why-is-wall-street-using-billions-of.html)

Cloward Piven was aimed at the poor.  So why do the rich get so much welfare and not matter?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 08, 2011, 09:25:19 PM
John, it is Cloward Piven.  Do you actually know what it is, or just the Glenn Beck version?  The idea was the total reverse of what you believe, or espouse it to believe.  They said that if there was a glut of people signing up for welfare then the government would be forced to make business pay livable wages to all.

The world need not always be all doom and gloom.

"I've written before about a point where the Pols pander to the mob.." Then aren't you violating your own argument by being a part of the tea party mob demanding the politicians attention?

Well Duck first, how would a glut of people signing up for welfare force
the government to make business pay livable wages? Gov't. already  forces a higher minimum wage, but it isn't adding any jobs. On the contrary, it reduces them. Especially for the young without experience.
Your "livable wage" idea would only exascerbate a lack of jobs.

Then you say aren't I violating my own argument by being part of the Tea Party mob. The thing you clearly don't understand is the Tea Party mob isn't asking the Pols to "give" us anything. We're pleading that the Pols take the necessary action needed before the whole country goes over a financial cliff. And if it does, all those poor people you so piously profess to care about, are going to be the first ones going over that cliff. Course that's big picture reality. Something you don't seem to even have the slightest of grasp.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 08, 2011, 09:32:08 PM
Why is Wall Street using billions of taxpayer dollars to finance projects for the ultra-rich?
by Chris in Paris on 2/08/2011 08:50:00 PM
 
This is beyond silly, but this is our Wall Street government. It would be nice to see a politician from either party either scrap this program immediately or at least return it to what it was supposed to be in the beginning. For all of the right wing talk about wealth distribution, the reality of programs like this and much of Washington's policies (both parties, of course) is about wealth distribution from the middle class and poor to the rich. Wall Street in particular has benefited from enough government handouts, so why are they still pilfering the system? Absolutely sickening.
The biggest beneficiary of taxpayer help for the Blackstone revamp was Prudential Financial Inc., the second-largest U.S. life insurer. The company got $15.6 million in tax credits from the U.S. Department of the Treasury for helping to fund the project, according to Chicago city records, Bloomberg Markets magazine reports in its March issue.

JPMorgan Chase & Co., the second-largest U.S. bank by assets, also took in money by serving as a lender and the monitor of Blackstone construction financing, city records show.

Since 2003, some of the world’s biggest financial companies, including Goldman Sachs Group Inc., U.S. Bancorp, JPMorgan Chase and Prudential, have taken advantage of a federal subsidy that will cost taxpayers $10.1 billion -- and most of the public has never heard of it.

[url]http://www.americablog.com/2011/02/why-is-wall-street-using-billions-of.html[/url] ([url]http://www.americablog.com/2011/02/why-is-wall-street-using-billions-of.html[/url])

Cloward Piven was aimed at the poor.  So why do the rich get so much welfare and not matter?


Duck:
Have no problem with this post. So how come Barney and Dodd's so called financial reforms didn't set forth in law that there would be no more taxpayer bailouts of these Wall Street outfits?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on February 08, 2011, 10:09:40 PM
Well Duck first, how would a glut of people signing up for welfare force
the government to make business pay livable wages? Gov't. already  forces a higher minimum wage, but it isn't adding any jobs. On the contrary, it reduces them. Especially for the young without experience.
Your "livable wage" idea would only exascerbate a lack of jobs.

I didn’t say it, and I didn’t say it would work.  I simply told you what the plan that Cloward and Piven came up with and why.  Yes, I agree that in the business climate of today a livable wage for most or all would not be possible.  So, we better keep reducing wages until all can’t live on it.

Quote
Then you say aren't I violating my own argument by being part of the Tea Party mob. The thing you clearly don't understand is the Tea Party mob isn't asking the Pols to "give" us anything. We're pleading that the Pols take the necessary action needed before the whole country goes over a financial cliff. And if it does, all those poor people you so piously profess to care about, are going to be the first ones going over that cliff. Course that's big picture reality. Something you don't seem to even have the slightest of grasp.

Okay, got it, listen to your mob; good.  Listen to anyone else; bad.  Got it.  Help the rich and kill off the poor; got it.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on February 08, 2011, 10:11:35 PM
Duck:
Have no problem with this post. So how come Barney and Dodd's so called financial reforms didn't set forth in law that there would be no more taxpayer bailouts of these Wall Street outfits?
I don't have a perfect memory but didn't the Republicans vote in lockstep to deny any financial reform?  I mean, yeah, according to you it was 100% the Dems fault it happened but why didn't your guys fix it then instead of stopping any reform?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 08, 2011, 10:21:14 PM
I don't have a perfect memory but didn't the Republicans vote in lockstep to deny any financial reform?  I mean, yeah, according to you it was 100% the Dems fault it happened but why didn't your guys fix it then instead of stopping any reform?

Duck:
Best I remember (R) did vote lockstep against. Couldn't stop any reform because the Dems hads super majorities in the Congress and Senate. So how wouldn't it be 100% Dems fault?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 08, 2011, 10:33:59 PM
I didn’t say it, and I didn’t say it would work.  I simply told you what the plan that Cloward and Piven came up with and why.  Yes, I agree that in the business climate of today a livable wage for most or all would not be possible.  So, we better keep reducing wages until all can’t live on it.

Okay, got it, listen to your mob; good.  Listen to anyone else; bad.  Got it.  Help the rich and kill off the poor; got it.


Duck you "got" nothing. Pay attention. It isn't the rich killing off the poor. As I tried to explain, when government spending causes the  financial bottom to fall out from under the country most all of us are going down and all I was saying is the poor will be the first to go.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 08, 2011, 11:11:29 PM
Duck:
Best I remember (R) did vote lockstep against. Couldn't stop any reform because the Dems hads super majorities in the Congress and Senate. So how wouldn't it be 100% Dems fault?
Selective memory there John, or just outright lies?

Democrats did not have a super majority in the Senate at that time. They only had 59. (Brown was sworn in in February 2010).

You should know that since it was on Fox news.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/02/04/brown-sworn-ending-dem-supermajority/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/02/04/brown-sworn-ending-dem-supermajority/)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on February 08, 2011, 11:20:19 PM
Duck:
Best I remember (R) did vote lockstep against. Couldn't stop any reform because the Dems hads super majorities in the Congress and Senate. So how wouldn't it be 100% Dems fault?
Why should something so important have to be 100% the majority and totally opposed by the minority.  I don't know the numbers but I assume some D's voted no with the totality of the R's.  That's the thing, you say that it is okay it was killed because the D's didn't manage it and no fault to the locksteppers. But, if some voted by district instead of by party demand it would or should have passed.

I know that the R's hate regulation but even us slums on the low levels can see that it is going to happen again because the government didn't fix it so that it won't and there will have to be another bail out or the country goes deep six.  With that part I agree with you, if they are not bailed out again, then we are deep doodoo toasted.  But, it should be fixed so that it doesn't happen again.  Maybe your R's will revisit it?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on February 08, 2011, 11:25:55 PM
Duck you "got" nothing. Pay attention. It isn't the rich killing off the poor. As I tried to explain, when government spending causes the  financial bottom to fall out from under the country most all of us are going down and all I was saying is the poor will be the first to go.
John, I have tried to tell you this before.  You hate welfare.  You want it gone.  Who gets welfare beside big corporations?  The poor.  Now, if companies pay wages that let people support themselves without any help, then the government is out of the welfare business.  Your way just dumps the poor to die, mine gets them off welfare by being able to take care of themselves instead.

The poor may be first, or hardest anyway, but it would be everyone.  But, I see another big bank like collapse before a government bankruptcy.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 08, 2011, 11:59:54 PM
Why should something so important have to be 100% the majority and totally opposed by the minority.  I don't know the numbers but I assume some D's voted no with the totality of the R's.  That's the thing, you say that it is okay it was killed because the D's didn't manage it and no fault to the locksteppers. But, if some voted by district instead of by party demand it would or should have passed.

I know that the R's hate regulation but even us slums on the low levels can see that it is going to happen again because the government didn't fix it so that it won't and there will have to be another bail out or the country goes deep six.  With that part I agree with you, if they are not bailed out again, then we are deep doodoo toasted.  But, it should be fixed so that it doesn't happen again.  Maybe your R's will revisit it?

Duck:
Long irrelevant argument. I never said it was killed, because it wasn't.
It passed. Don't you read anything outside of the forum?

If they passed a reform that said no more taxpayer bailouts then the folks investing would demand these institutions were more transparent to make sure their dollars wouldn't end up on a roulette wheel. We've already seen government watchdogs can't be trusted.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 09, 2011, 12:30:14 AM
Selective memory there John, or just outright lies?

Democrats did not have a super majority in the Senate at that time. They only had 59. (Brown was sworn in in February 2010).

You should know that since it was on Fox news.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/02/04/brown-sworn-ending-dem-supermajority/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/02/04/brown-sworn-ending-dem-supermajority/)

Fluff:
KMA. I said, "best I remember" no (R)s voted for the Frank/Dodd
financial reforms. Because I didn't recall Scott Brown (R), the lone Republican apparently voting for it, you say I either have a selective memory, or I'm an outright liar. Well I would say the only illumination your post provides to the discussion I was having with Duck is you believe being petty in the extreme is a sign of good character. On this count I'll gladly let the foks in the forum judge for themselves. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on February 09, 2011, 12:46:51 AM

What John is referring to is when the Democrats passed the financial reforms, the Republicans wanted to tie into that legislation a law that would prevent congress of ever approving any kind of a bail out regardless of what the emergency maybe..

I know some of you reading this would say... yea yea thats great!!!... in my opinion that is being very foolish to tie congresses hands that way, because we do not know what kind of an emergency may lay in wait... whether its ten years.. or a hundred years...  and by lumping it into the financial bill... well lets first say.. if it were the Democrats trying to do it.. they would be yelling PORK!!!  and secondly, people are naive.. you really don't understand that once you put a law on the books like that, not only do you take away the ability for Congress to act swiftly.. the law cannot be removed unless you push through an entire repeal... then act on whatever the emergency maybe...

Folks.. I know there are some of you out there that believe the stimulus was not necessary.. I am afraid the risk was too great to gamble that!  and amid all that has transpired since the Bush disaster, the economy is still better in Michigan than it was when your savior Ronald Reagan was President...  Reagan's tax cuts did not work...  after four years of his presidency Michigan was over 18% unemployment..  and he was not handed a financial collapse as Obama was handed... 

Look at the statistics... follow Reagan's recovery and line it up with Obama's...   
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 09, 2011, 03:06:59 AM
What John is referring to is when the Democrats passed the financial reforms, the Republicans wanted to tie into that legislation a law that would prevent congress of ever approving any kind of a bail out regardless of what the emergency maybe..

I know some of you reading this would say... yea yea thats great!!!... in my opinion that is being very foolish to tie congresses hands that way, because we do not know what kind of an emergency may lay in wait... whether its ten years.. or a hundred years...  and by lumping it into the financial bill... well lets first say.. if it were the Democrats trying to do it.. they would be yelling PORK!!!  and secondly, people are naive.. you really don't understand that once you put a law on the books like that, not only do you take away the ability for Congress to act swiftly.. the law cannot be removed unless you push through an entire repeal... then act on whatever the emergency maybe...

Folks.. I know there are some of you out there that believe the stimulus was not necessary.. I am afraid the risk was too great to gamble that!  and amid all that has transpired since the Bush disaster, the economy is still better in Michigan than it was when your savior Ronald Reagan was President...  Reagan's tax cuts did not work...  after four years of his presidency Michigan was over 18% unemployment..  and he was not handed a financial collapse as Obama was handed... 

Look at the statistics... follow Reagan's recovery and line it up with Obama's...   
What John is referring to is when the Democrats passed the financial reforms, the Republicans wanted to tie into that legislation a law that would prevent congress of ever approving any kind of a bail out regardless of what the emergency maybe..

I know some of you reading this would say... yea yea thats great!!!... in my opinion that is being very foolish to tie congresses hands that way, because we do not know what kind of an emergency may lay in wait... whether its ten years.. or a hundred years...  and by lumping it into the financial bill... well lets first say.. if it were the Democrats trying to do it.. they would be yelling PORK!!!  and secondly, people are naive.. you really don't understand that once you put a law on the books like that, not only do you take away the ability for Congress to act swiftly.. the law cannot be removed unless you push through an entire repeal... then act on whatever the emergency maybe...

Folks.. I know there are some of you out there that believe the stimulus was not necessary.. I am afraid the risk was too great to gamble that!  and amid all that has transpired since the Bush disaster, the economy is still better in Michigan than it was when your savior Ronald Reagan was President...  Reagan's tax cuts did not work...  after four years of his presidency Michigan was over 18% unemployment..  and he was not handed a financial collapse as Obama was handed... 

Look at the statistics... follow Reagan's recovery and line it up with Obama's...   
What John is referring to is when the Democrats passed the financial reforms, the Republicans wanted to tie into that legislation a law that would prevent congress of ever approving any kind of a bail out regardless of what the emergency maybe..

I know some of you reading this would say... yea yea thats great!!!... in my opinion that is being very foolish to tie congresses hands that way, because we do not know what kind of an emergency may lay in wait... whether its ten years.. or a hundred years...  and by lumping it into the financial bill... well lets first say.. if it were the Democrats trying to do it.. they would be yelling PORK!!!  and secondly, people are naive.. you really don't understand that once you put a law on the books like that, not only do you take away the ability for Congress to act swiftly.. the law cannot be removed unless you push through an entire repeal... then act on whatever the emergency maybe...

Folks.. I know there are some of you out there that believe the stimulus was not necessary.. I am afraid the risk was too great to gamble that!  and amid all that has transpired since the Bush disaster, the economy is still better in Michigan than it was when your savior Ronald Reagan was President...  Reagan's tax cuts did not work...  after four years of his presidency Michigan was over 18% unemployment..  and he was not handed a financial collapse as Obama was handed... 

Look at the statistics... follow Reagan's recovery and line it up with Obama's...   

Chicken:
Big banks are too big. We found out the hard way, too big to fail.
We also found we can't count on government watchdogs to do their job. Given the circumstances of the crisis this time government had to step in.

Thing is knowing we obviously can't count on the goverment to oversee these banks, legislation stipulating government will no longer will stand behind them, beyond FDIC guarantee, is the answer. Folks
would be much more cautious before handing over their life savings to them.

Further, we should no longer allow these banks to co-mingle their investment banking business with their traditional bank business.
Combination of these two moves would reduce the size of these banks because the folks would disperse their savings for more protection. Further, the government and the FED allowed these banks
to have capital to loans of up to 40 to 1, whereas it used to be like 9 to 1.

Chicken says after 4 years of Reagan Michigan unemployment was 18%. I checked it was 12% in 1984. She also said Reagan was not handed the financial mess Obama was. Well it wasn't exactly of the same nature, but it was really bad. As I remember we 12% inflation, mortgage interest rates something like 15% or more and dealing with recession coming out of Carter years. Volker (head of FED) with Reagan's continued political support concentrated on reducing inflation. Do do so it put economy into double dip recession. Yet Reagan stuck with FED policy. It was grim for a couple years, but they
brought inflation to heal, and combined with tax rate reductions, by
1984 the economy took off. Reagan and Volker made hard choices and
it turned things around.

Obama was dealt a tough economic situation. His almost $ 900 billion in borrowed/printed stimulous basically temporarily bailed out hurting states. Now it is coming to an end and states have to make cuts they put off. Unemployment went from something like 7.8% end of 2008 to 9.8%. It recently dropped to 9.0% and yet everyone knows it wasn't  a big jump in people getting jobs it was people who stopped looking for work.

Economy still staggering. Two years and almost $ 3 trillion more to
national debt. Looking at another $ 1.5 trillion deficit this year. FED monetizing (printing money) to fund deficits. Dollar tanking. Oil and gas shooting upwards. Obama responds by going out of his way to depress domestic energy production. EPA regs and threat of reg. adding to energy costs. Government continues spewing business killing regs. Obama spends two years bashing business. Housing still tanking despite ineffectual Obama billions trying to prop up. All wasted money. 40 million people on food stamps, unemployment benefits to 99 weeks. Inflation rising substancially, yet government says not so. Course they don't include skyrocketing energy and foods prices in the calculation. Good thing energy and food aren't essentials. And thank goodness continued tanking of housing prices helps keep inflation down. Throw in Obama's resistance to give a hint he might take reducing our deficits anywhere near seriously could result in a sudden  meltdown in the bond market when China and investors say no more to buying our Treasury junk. Not to worry,  the FED will create out of thing air even more billions of worthless notes to make up the difference. Dollar tanks some more.

And Obama Talks about "Winning the Future" with more "investments"
of taxpayer dollars for Windmills, $ 7500 checks to buy an electric car and telling business leaders to hire more folks whether they need them or not. God help us, because Obama ain't gotta clue.
 

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 09, 2011, 08:43:49 AM
Chicken:
Big banks are too big. We found out the hard way, too big to fail.
We also found we can't count on government watchdogs to do their job. Given the circumstances of the crisis this time government had to step in.

Thing is knowing we obviously can't count on the goverment to oversee these banks, legislation stipulating government will no longer will stand behind them, beyond FDIC guarantee, is the answer. Folks
would be much more cautious before handing over their life savings to them.

Further, we should no longer allow these banks to co-mingle their investment banking business with their traditional bank business.
Combination of these two moves would reduce the size of these banks because the folks would disperse their savings for more protection. Further, the government and the FED allowed these banks
to have capital to loans of up to 40 to 1, whereas it used to be like 9 to 1.

Chicken says after 4 years of Reagan Michigan unemployment was 18%. I checked it was 12% in 1984. She also said Reagan was not handed the financial mess Obama was. Well it wasn't exactly of the same nature, but it was really bad. As I remember we 12% inflation, mortgage interest rates something like 15% or more and dealing with recession coming out of Carter years. Volker (head of FED) with Reagan's continued political support concentrated on reducing inflation. Do do so it put economy into double dip recession. Yet Reagan stuck with FED policy. It was grim for a couple years, but they
brought inflation to heal, and combined with tax rate reductions, by
1984 the economy took off. Reagan and Volker made hard choices and
it turned things around.

Obama was dealt a tough economic situation. His almost $ 900 billion in borrowed/printed stimulous basically temporarily bailed out hurting states. Now it is coming to an end and states have to make cuts they put off. Unemployment went from something like 7.8% end of 2008 to 9.8%. It recently dropped to 9.0% and yet everyone knows it wasn't  a big jump in people getting jobs it was people who stopped looking for work.

Economy still staggering. Two years and almost $ 3 trillion more to
national debt. Looking at another $ 1.5 trillion deficit this year. FED monetizing (printing money) to fund deficits. Dollar tanking. Oil and gas shooting upwards. Obama responds by going out of his way to depress domestic energy production. EPA regs and threat of reg. adding to energy costs. Government continues spewing business killing regs. Obama spends two years bashing business. Housing still tanking despite ineffectual Obama billions trying to prop up. All wasted money. 40 million people on food stamps, unemployment benefits to 99 weeks. Inflation rising substancially, yet government says not so. Course they don't include skyrocketing energy and foods prices in the calculation. Good thing energy and food aren't essentials. And thank goodness continued tanking of housing prices helps keep inflation down. Throw in Obama's resistance to give a hint he might take reducing our deficits anywhere near seriously could result in a sudden  meltdown in the bond market when China and investors say no more to buying our Treasury junk. Not to worry,  the FED will create out of thing air even more billions of worthless notes to make up the difference. Dollar tanks some more.

And Obama Talks about "Winning the Future" with more "investments"
of taxpayer dollars for Windmills, $ 7500 checks to buy an electric car and telling business leaders to hire more folks whether they need them or not. God help us, because Obama ain't gotta clue.
 


Reagan, again John? You must be off your medications because you don't remember history properly.

The truth is that Ronald Reagan did raise taxes, especially the payroll tax in 1983. Reagan first raised taxes by $17 billion in 1982. His 1983 increase of the payroll tax virtually wiped out his 1981 tax cut, and for good measure Reagan raised taxes in 1984 in an attempt to combat the exploding budget deficit courtesy of Reaganomics, and concerns about inflation. The Tax Reform Act of 1986 cut tax breaks and shelters, which would qualify it in today’s Republican terms as a tax increase.

http://www.politicususa.com/en/limbaugh-liberal-ronald-reagan (http://www.politicususa.com/en/limbaugh-liberal-ronald-reagan)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 09, 2011, 12:23:19 PM
Selective memory there John, or just outright lies?

you say I either have a selective memory, or I'm an outright liar.
You posted that they had a super majority at the time of the vote. They did not have a super majority after Brown was sworn in in February 2010.

Don't YOU read anything outside of this forum? Or do you only regurgitate what those talking wing nuts spoon feed you?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on February 09, 2011, 01:11:46 PM


Sorry John.. That was a local Statistic that was for metro Detroit in 1984.... Statewide it topped in 1982.. 

http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/lauhsthl.htm (http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/lauhsthl.htm)  Hmmm 3.3 when Bush became President... what was it by the end of his presidency? 

See unlike you John.. I don't blame Ronald Reagan for the high unemployment rate in Michigan... The mass factory closings were already written on the wall...

I give Reagan a little leeway because that was already in motion before he took office...  a lot like President Obama.... but John you will never see it that way... 

You have complained and criticized....  when I say.. look at what we have to compare it with.. OUR history... 

All I want to point out is Michigan was harder hit during the the recession of the 1980's... and in Michigan it really did not start to turn around until 86/87...

Yes interest rate were very high in the 80's...  You also earned more on your money without having to take a risk... like CD's that were paying over 7% interest... Remember when you could earn 4% on a regular passbook savings account?  You do not have to be a business major to understand that you cannot loan money for less than what you are paying out on secured deposits... 

So we had people not banking large sums of money as rule... Interest rates should have been raised when Bush was president.. but there was already a decline in our economy... and the new jobs were not livable wage jobs... 

Ah.. they are just announcing on the news that Freddie and Fanny are dead...  Congress Woman Giffords is Speaking again...  Sorry time for me to watch the noon news on WGN...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: old salt on February 11, 2011, 03:02:55 PM
An interesting letter.  I may start a new thread on this.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/a-letter-from-a-fearfully-concerned-muslim/ (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/a-letter-from-a-fearfully-concerned-muslim/)

Some excerpts:

A Letter from a Fearfully Concerned Muslim

Just ponder how a third-rate community organizer — from the most incestuously corrupt political region in the U.S.; with a record of participation in the most vulgar gathering of Jeremiah Wright posing as a reverend, spouting Fanonian rhetoric and bigotry; with mentors such as the unrepentant terrorist Bill Ayers; channelling the teachings of Saul Alinsky and Rashid Khalidi of the Chomsky school of self-loathing and sophistry — could advance through the ranks of American politics at an astounding speed, with little or no record of experience in government, to become the 44th president.
In one of my columns from 2008 for the Sun Media in Canada, I had written in disbelief, as I watched the primaries unfold, of how American voters could be so beguiled by a charlatan of the Harold Hill type from The Music Man and vote for Obama. I was wrong in my overestimation of reason and experience among American voters as a check on the naivete of the university crowd and the duplicity of Lenin’s “useful idiots” in free societies.

We remain more or less preoccupied with re-litigating the debate over the decision by the Bush administration to take the war declared upon the West into the heartland of the enemy and expunge them; and instead of faulting Bush for not going far enough at home and abroad in defeating the Islamist jihadi assault on the West, for reasons that have everything to do with the nature of our corrupted polity, we have contorted ourselves to find the right mix of appeasement.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on February 12, 2011, 08:58:15 AM
Hey Chicken, off topic, but sorry about the butt call from my cell phone this week.  BTW....that call was from the area of Haight Ashbury.  Thought you would enjoy that tid bit of information.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on February 12, 2011, 09:26:29 AM
Hey Chicken, off topic, but sorry about the butt call from my cell phone this week.  BTW....that call was from the area of Haight Ashbury.  Thought you would enjoy that tid bit of information.


LMAO...   I do remember the call...  The sad part, I spoke to your butt for a good 20 minutes before I hung up....
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on February 12, 2011, 09:33:48 AM
LOL, sorry.  BTW....the voice of the woman was the taxi driver, I was NOT in an adult club!   ;)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 14, 2011, 09:01:44 PM
Reading an article describing Bernanke in recent hearing answering questions about inflation.Bern baby said we have don't worry about inflation, he has it under control.

Article explained the reality.

It's called "biflation."

Everything you already own -- a house, a car, a stock portfolio -- has rapidly declined in value. Everything you actually need to buy -- food, gasoline, medicine, education -- is going up.

Biflation is apparently what happens when the Fed creates trillions of new dollars out of nothing, but mostly just gives it to the banks.

Kinda makes you want to laugh until you cry.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on February 14, 2011, 09:04:30 PM
LOL, sorry.  BTW....the voice of the woman was the taxi driver, I was NOT in an adult club!   ;)
So you say!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 15, 2011, 07:30:47 PM
Lots of back and forth in the Obama budget topic about where cuts should, or should not, be made. But the thing is big cuts need to be made, and soon.

The FED is monetizing the debt. Which means they are creating money out thin air to buy treasuries to fund our debt. Why. To keep interest rates down by devaluing the dollar, and because there are fewer countries and people with real money willing to invest in treasuries. We see IMF, China, France, Russia and others talking about the dollar being replaced as the world reserve currency.

Come a point where, other than the FED, no one will want to buy our treasuries unless the interest rate is hiked substantially to account for
the growing risk. If this happens the interest we are paying on our
$ 14 trillion dollar debt will explode. We could be talking a trillion a year, or more, in interest alone!!! Or the FED could really ramp up the printing press and then we're looking at hyper inflation. Five bucks for a single egg type stuff. Either way we would be toast.

 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on February 15, 2011, 08:07:24 PM
Buy land. Buy chickens. Plant more carrots.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 15, 2011, 08:28:01 PM
Buy land. Buy chickens. Plant more carrots.

Sammy:
I know what I describe sounds pretty stark. But here is the thing. We
all grew up in an America thinking the sky was the limit. Yet we were already on an unsustainable course years ago, but it was much more gradual. The meltdown in Sept. 2008 sped up the clock substantially.
We heard SS would go in the red in 2018. It was in the hole last year.

Our deficits are 5 times what they were just 3 years ago! Anecdotally
I just bought a head of lettuce the other day. $ 1.69. A week earlier it was $ 1.29. Cotton is up 125% in 6 months. Oats up 36%, lumber 33%, oil 25% and on and on. Buy land, grow your own food may sound silly today, but who knows. I hope you're right and I look like a fool in 5 years.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on February 15, 2011, 08:40:21 PM
Corn is pushing $7.00 a bushel.  Look out, people.  Every commodity is going up in price.  I've been saying that for years, and it's happening.  Now.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on February 15, 2011, 08:43:38 PM
Sammy:
I know what I describe sounds pretty stark. But here is the thing. We
all grew up in an America thinking the sky was the limit. Yet we were already on an unsustainable course years ago, but it was much more gradual. The meltdown in Sept. 2008 sped up the clock substantially.
We heard SS would go in the red in 2018. It was in the hole last year.

Our deficits are 5 times what they were just 3 years ago! Anecdotally
I just bought a head of lettuce the other day. $ 1.69. A week earlier it was $ 1.29. Cotton is up 125% in 6 months. Oats up 36%, lumber 33%, oil 25% and on and on. Buy land, grow your own food may sound silly today, but who knows. I hope you're right and I look like a fool in 5 years.
That wasn't a joke!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 15, 2011, 08:55:23 PM
That wasn't a joke!

No it isn't.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on February 15, 2011, 09:05:53 PM
Corn is pushing $7.00 a bushel.  Look out, people.  Every commodity is going up in price.  I've been saying that for years, and it's happening.  Now.
Live, as a former farmer, I watch the commodity markets from time to time, not everyday, as you must. Even in these times, doesn't seven dollar corn seem out of line?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 15, 2011, 09:12:43 PM
http://news.tradingcharts.com/futures/6/0/153403906.html (http://news.tradingcharts.com/futures/6/0/153403906.html)
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/ZS/M (http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/ZS/M)
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/ZO/M (http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/ZO/M)
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CN/M (http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CN/M)
http://www.noosanews.com.au/story/2011/02/15/lettuce-prices-up-grapes-down-cost-fruit-vegetable/ (http://www.noosanews.com.au/story/2011/02/15/lettuce-prices-up-grapes-down-cost-fruit-vegetable/)

I will admit, the prices are showing levels of what they were exactly 3 years ago.

There are many things that affect food commodity prices.

Like the drought in China, that is now appearing to ease up, so prices may go down.
Low stockpiles of corn, combined with a bad season, and increased ethanol usage.

http://supermarketnews.com/news/lettuce_alone_0126/ (http://supermarketnews.com/news/lettuce_alone_0126/)

Fungus drives prices of lettuce up.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 15, 2011, 09:25:41 PM
[url]http://news.tradingcharts.com/futures/6/0/153403906.html[/url] ([url]http://news.tradingcharts.com/futures/6/0/153403906.html[/url])
[url]http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/ZS/M[/url] ([url]http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/ZS/M[/url])
[url]http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/ZO/M[/url] ([url]http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/ZO/M[/url])
[url]http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CN/M[/url] ([url]http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CN/M[/url])
[url]http://www.noosanews.com.au/story/2011/02/15/lettuce-prices-up-grapes-down-cost-fruit-vegetable/[/url] ([url]http://www.noosanews.com.au/story/2011/02/15/lettuce-prices-up-grapes-down-cost-fruit-vegetable/[/url])

I will admit, the prices are showing levels of what they were exactly 3 years ago.

There are many things that affect food commodity prices.

Like the drought in China, that is now appearing to ease up, so prices may go down.
Low stockpiles of corn, combined with a bad season, and increased ethanol usage.

[url]http://supermarketnews.com/news/lettuce_alone_0126/[/url] ([url]http://supermarketnews.com/news/lettuce_alone_0126/[/url])

Fungus drives prices of lettuce up.


FB:
Some good points. I also think there is some speculation. Where can you put your money and make a return? I think this has also artificially
boosted the stock market. Plus with the value of the dollar sinking producers want more dollars for their product. On corn, the fact
we use 40% of our crop for ethanol drives up the demand/price for corn. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, the price of corn steers farmers to plant corn, rather than wheat for example, and therefore the supply
of wheat goes down relative to demand. Then wheat prices rise.
Result of another Government brainstorm. The law of unintended consequenses kicks in. It was primarily government, along with the FED, that brought on the financial meltdown of 2008.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on February 15, 2011, 09:38:36 PM
FB:
Some good points. I also think there is some speculation. Where can you put your money and make a return? I think this has also artificially
boosted the stock market. Plus with the value of the dollar sinking producers want more dollars for their product. On corn, the fact
we use 40% of our crop for ethanol drives up the demand/price for corn. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, the price of corn steers farmers to plant corn, rather than wheat for example, and therefore the supply
of wheat goes down relative to demand. Then wheat prices rise.
Result of another Government brainstorm. The law of unintended consequenses kicks in. It was primarily government, along with the FED, that brought on the financial meltdown of 2008.
Please, PLEASE show how 40% of the American corn crop goes to ethanol.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 15, 2011, 09:41:18 PM
Please, PLEASE show how 40% of the American corn crop goes to ethanol.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703396604576088010481315914.html?mod=googlenews_wsj (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703396604576088010481315914.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 15, 2011, 09:41:58 PM
Amber Waves of Ethanol
22 January 2011  <link>
 

 
Four of every 10 rows of U.S. corn now go for fuel, not food.
 
The global economy is getting back on its feet, but so too is an old enemy: food inflation. The United Nations benchmark index hit a record high last month, raising fears of shortages and higher prices that will hit poor countries hardest. So why is the United States, one of the world's biggest agricultural exporters, devoting more and more of its corn crop to . . . ethanol?
 
The nearby chart, based on data from the Department of Agriculture, shows the remarkable trend over a decade. In 2001, only 7% of U.S. corn went for ethanol, or about 707 million bushels. By 2010, the ethanol share was 39.4%, or nearly five billion bushels out of total U.S. production of 12.45 billion bushels. Four of every 10 rows of corn now go to produce fuel for American cars or trucks, not food or feed.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 15, 2011, 09:42:52 PM
(http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/ED-AM918_1corn_G_20110120182703.jpg)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 15, 2011, 09:49:52 PM
http://www.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=144&mid=10023626&pt=msg (http://www.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=144&mid=10023626&pt=msg)


The Environmental Protection Agency has found that ethanol production has a minimal to negative impact on the environment. Even Al Gore, once an ethanol evangelist, now says his support had more to do with Presidential politics in Iowa and admits the fuel provides little or no environmental gain.
 
Not that this has changed the politics of ethanol. When consumers didn't buy enough gas last year to meet previous ethanol mandates, the Obama Administration lifted the cap on how much ethanol may be mixed into gasoline to 15% from 10%. Presto! More ethanol "demand." On Friday the EPA greatly expanded the number of cars approved to use the 15% blend. Last month, Congressmen whose constituents benefit from this largesse tucked into the tax bill an extension of the $5 billion tax credit for blending ethanol into gasoline. 
 
At a time when the world will need more corn and grains, it makes no sense to devote scarce farmland to make a fuel that exists only because of taxpayer subsidies and mandates. If food supplies tighten and prices keep rising, such a policy will soon become immoral. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 15, 2011, 09:57:06 PM
[url]http://www.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=144&mid=10023626&pt=msg[/url] ([url]http://www.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=144&mid=10023626&pt=msg[/url])


The Environmental Protection Agency has found that ethanol production has a minimal to negative impact on the environment. Even Al Gore, once an ethanol evangelist, now says his support had more to do with Presidential politics in Iowa and admits the fuel provides little or no environmental gain.
 
Not that this has changed the politics of ethanol. When consumers didn't buy enough gas last year to meet previous ethanol mandates, the Obama Administration lifted the cap on how much ethanol may be mixed into gasoline to 15% from 10%. Presto! More ethanol "demand." On Friday the EPA greatly expanded the number of cars approved to use the 15% blend. Last month, Congressmen whose constituents benefit from this largesse tucked into the tax bill an extension of the $5 billion tax credit for blending ethanol into gasoline. 
 
At a time when the world will need more corn and grains, it makes no sense to devote scarce farmland to make a fuel that exists only because of taxpayer subsidies and mandates. If food supplies tighten and prices keep rising, such a policy will soon become immoral. 


FB:
Both sides of the aisle should be condemned on this travesty/
boondoggle. Not to mention the damage it does to engines, especially the extensive damage it does to small engines like those on lawnmowers. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 15, 2011, 10:02:07 PM
FB:
Both sides of the aisle should be condemned on this travesty/
boondoggle. Not to mention the damage it does to engines, especially the extensive damage it does to small engines like those on lawnmowers. 
I agree.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on February 16, 2011, 07:12:02 AM
Live, as a former farmer, I watch the commodity markets from time to time, not everyday, as you must. Even in these times, doesn't seven dollar corn seem out of line?

Out of line?

Yeah, maybe a little bit.  $9 or $10 would be better.   ;D

Seriously, $7 corn is NOT out of line at all, when you're paying $1,000 a ton for fertilizer, land rents are up to $140 an acre, fuel is over $3.00 a gallon, and a decent, used combine costs $160,000.00.  Unfortunately, farmers aren't getting that $7.00.  That may be what the suits at the CBOT are getting when they trade their commodities, but the local farmer, selling his corn at the local elevator is getting paid around $6.40 right now for cash corn - IF they have some in storage from last year.  New crop corn futures right now at local elevators is only just over $5.00 a bushel.  A good price, yes, but not the boondoggle that everyone thinks it is.

I farmed many years back in the '80's, when I was getting less than $2.00 for corn, and $5.00 for beans.  Making money wasn't an option.  Minimizing your losses was the name of the game.  Farmers were trying to stay alive, to hopefully get by until the next year.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on February 17, 2011, 12:22:24 PM
Well, John, looks like you are right.  As we speak the R's you adore are working overtime to kill the unions.  You can kiss work safety, 40 hour workweeks, sick days, vacations, and a standard of living above poverty goodbye if they win, as you want them to.

They are going overtime redefining abortion and even making it legal to kill abortion doctors.  Oh, and that "forced" rape bill, there are three more attached to other bills saying the exact same thing hoping one will get through.

Chip away, chip away, legislate morality, take away right...

Jobs, jobs, jobs.  That is what you said and Boehner said many times over the last two years.  I just didn't know when he said it that he meant take away jobs instead of add jobs.

Chip away, chip away, but not at what needs to be done.  Too big to fail... nothing at all... Wall Street greed and excess.. nothing.  Big bank problems... nope.  Just hurt the working class as hard a s possible.

Why does it seem that the R's have worked at miking the economic problems worse for two years in a hope to win elections and have not stopped because they want the White House back too.  so kill more jobs, sink the economy harder, send the middle class down to ranks of the poor.

John, when you get your wish and we all make a dollar a day if you are lucky enough to work that day, who will pay your deficit then?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on February 17, 2011, 12:23:53 PM
Oh, and John, I love your idea of eliminating education.  Nothing like having a stupid illiterate people that can't see the BS coming from your idols.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on February 17, 2011, 05:35:08 PM
Well, John, looks like you are right.  As we speak the R's you adore are working overtime to kill the unions.  You can kiss work safety, 40 hour workweeks, sick days, vacations, and a standard of living above poverty goodbye if they win, as you want them to.
Yes, because all those people who aren't in unions experience all those things you listed. Why should hourly people get overtime pay for working over 40 hours, but not salaried employees?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on February 17, 2011, 05:45:38 PM
Yes, because all those people who aren't in unions experience all those things you listed. Why should hourly people get overtime pay for working over 40 hours, but not salaried employees?
These days, salaried employees should pretty much know there is no overtime pay. If you want overtime, you gotta take an hourly job. Life is all about trade-offs.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on February 17, 2011, 06:04:32 PM
These days, salaried employees should pretty much know there is no overtime pay. If you want overtime, you gotta take an hourly job. Life is all about trade-offs.
I know, I was throwing the salaried out there because of the "40 hour work week" comment. So, if one group gets overtime pay why should another group not get it? It would make sense that people should be treated fairly across the board, wouldn't it? The person going into the salaried job most likely has no options to pursue an hourly job that would match up with their field, why should they be punished, or not rewarded (depending on which way you want to look at this), for that, i.e. working more than 40 hour weeks a decent amount of the time and not getting any overtime?

Just to clarify, I am not saying that hourly people shouldn't get paid at all for anything over 40, but why do they need time and a half? Why is the normal hourly rate not acceptable?

Let's say one of the Big 3, when the next contract negotiations come around, decided to propose salary all the union workers. For example purposes we will say they get a 60,000 base salary and a COLA adjustment that is on par with the CPI, or some other price index. They will get all the same health and dental benefits they did before hand. Would the union accept this deal?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 17, 2011, 06:07:35 PM
Oh, and John, I love your idea of eliminating education.  Nothing like having a stupid illiterate people that can't see the BS coming from your idols.

Duck:
I called for the elimination of the Department of Education, not eliminating education. Or do you actually think they are one and the same?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 17, 2011, 06:47:03 PM
Well, John, looks like you are right.  As we speak the R's you adore are working overtime to kill the unions.  You can kiss work safety, 40 hour workweeks, sick days, vacations, and a standard of living above poverty goodbye if they win, as you want them to.

They are going overtime redefining abortion and even making it legal to kill abortion doctors.  Oh, and that "forced" rape bill, there are three more attached to other bills saying the exact same thing hoping one will get through.

Chip away, chip away, legislate morality, take away right...

Jobs, jobs, jobs.  That is what you said and Boehner said many times over the last two years.  I just didn't know when he said it that he meant take away jobs instead of add jobs.

Chip away, chip away, but not at what needs to be done.  Too big to fail... nothing at all... Wall Street greed and excess.. nothing.  Big bank problems... nope.  Just hurt the working class as hard a s possible.

Why does it seem that the R's have worked at miking the economic problems worse for two years in a hope to win elections and have not stopped because they want the White House back too.  so kill more jobs, sink the economy harder, send the middle class down to ranks of the poor.

John, when you get your wish and we all make a dollar a day if you are lucky enough to work that day, who will pay your deficit then?

Duck:
Kill unions you say. I assume your referring to what is happening in Wisconsin. Appears governor wants to take health benefits and  pensions out of negotiationg process leaving only wages. Also wants teachers to pay something for their health benefits and contribute something towards their pensions. Considering Wisconsin has looming $ 3.6 billion deficit to cover, where would you suggest they get the cash to cover? Cut Medicaid, lay off thousands of state workers, enact
massive tax increases? Do you pay anything for toward your health insurance or toward your retirement? I do. All of it. Why shouldn't these folks pay something towards them.

As for Wall Street legislation. That is what I believe is called the
Dodd (D) - Frank (D) bill.

On the economy. Obama had huge majorities in the Senate and Congress for his first two years. He got his $ 800 billion stimulous
and he got his Obamacare and the Republicans couldn't stop him,
or they would have. Pointing fingers at Republicans, when their numbers were too small shape legislation during this period is just
rant. Especially when you gave nary an example.

 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 24, 2011, 09:24:39 PM
Don't know where to begin. Mid East aflame. Oil prices going up. Cost of food going up. States seeking to get their budgets under control in turmoil. Obama proposes a 2012 budget with $ 1.6 trillion deficit.

What we're seeing in Madison (Athens) is what we could be seeing across the country if the Federal Government doesn't get their spending under control, and our creditors force austerity upon us. Everybody depending on government checks in an uproar. Obama? Sitting in an easy chair in the White House theater watching a Motown anniversay show.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on February 24, 2011, 09:38:14 PM
Your solution? Slowly, please , for those of us who are challenged in one way or another.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 24, 2011, 09:48:12 PM
Duck:
Kill unions you say. I assume your referring to what is happening in Wisconsin. Appears governor wants to take health benefits and  pensions out of negotiationg process leaving only wages. Also wants teachers to pay something for their health benefits and contribute something towards their pensions. Considering Wisconsin has looming $ 3.6 billion deficit to cover, where would you suggest they get the cash to cover? Cut Medicaid, lay off thousands of state workers, enact
massive tax increases? Do you pay anything for toward your health insurance or toward your retirement? I do. All of it. Why shouldn't these folks pay something towards them.
Why do you continue to IGNORE the FACTS? The workers agreed to ALL of those concessions, and all they asked was that they keep the ability to negotiate in the future.

Governor says "NO", just wants to bust the unions for his owner.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Griff on February 24, 2011, 09:53:18 PM
Why do you continue to IGNORE the FACTS? The workers agreed to ALL of those concessions, and all they asked was that they keep the ability to negotiate in the future.

Governor says "NO", just wants to bust the unions for his owner.

Until the bill is passed, they haven't agreed to anything.

peace
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 24, 2011, 09:54:23 PM
Until the bill is passed, they haven't agreed to anything.

peace
If the bill is passed, they won't have to agree to anything ever again.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Griff on February 24, 2011, 10:18:22 PM
If the bill is passed, they won't have to agree to anything ever again.

We won't know until the missing Senators return and engage in the People's business.

peace
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 24, 2011, 10:23:30 PM
Your solution? Slowly, please , for those of us who are challenged in one way or another.

Well Sammy you must be challenged. Could be a huge energy spike.
Can you spell falling into a devastating double dip recession? Obama?
Already put a moratorium on Gulf drilling, and rescinded previously approved leases on onshore drilling. Cut spending? No we'll freeze spending on discretionary spending, which Obama increased  20%
plus over the last 2 years.  Do you have a clue on what would happen if other countries would no longer buy our treasuries to finance our deficits? Already the FED is printing money to buy treasuries that can't be sold. Inflation and interest rates could go through the roof. Yearly cost of interest on our debt could balloon from $ 250 billion to $ 800 billion! Sammy, 40% of Federal spending is either borrowed or printed. And the best you've got is some lame attempt to ridicule me with a response that is barren of even a trace of substance?   

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 24, 2011, 10:25:37 PM
We won't know until the missing Senators return and engage in the People's business.

peace
Yes we will, it's what is written in the bill. No negotiations whatsoever except for wage increases above the rate of inflation.

Walker's plan would allow unions representing most public employees to negotiate only for wage increases, not benefits or working conditions. Any wage increase above the Consumer Price Index would have to be approved in a referendum. Unions would face a vote of membership every year to stay formed
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Griff on February 24, 2011, 10:28:39 PM
Yes we will, it's what is written in the bill. No negotiations whatsoever except for wage increases above the rate of inflation.

Walker's plan would allow unions representing most public employees to negotiate only for wage increases, not benefits or working conditions. Any wage increase above the Consumer Price Index would have to be approved in a referendum. Unions would face a vote of membership every year to stay formed

How many amendments are in the Assembly? The bill and everything in it is negotiable.

Missing-in-action is desertion--they need to 'cowboy-up' and place the discussion back into the legislative session now that it has been aired and heard in the public forum for the better part of a week.

peace
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 24, 2011, 10:33:53 PM
The bill and everything in it is negotiable.
Not according to the Governor, who has to approve the bill once it is passed.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Griff on February 24, 2011, 10:35:49 PM
Not according to the Governor, who has to approve the bill once it is passed.

We will only know what is negotiable and what will be passed and what will be signed into law when the MIA Senators return.

At least we won't have to wait for passage of the bill to know what's in it....: )

peace
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 24, 2011, 10:36:55 PM
Why do you continue to IGNORE the FACTS? The workers agreed to ALL of those concessions, and all they asked was that they keep the ability to negotiate in the future.

Governor says "NO", just wants to bust the unions for his owner.

Duck:
I made a minor mention of the Wisconsin matter in one post in this
topic, but extensive discussion of this issue should be directed to the topic that focuses on this issue. Otherwise we have two different topics, one of which does not focus on this issue, this one, discussing the same issue.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 24, 2011, 10:40:32 PM
Duck:
I made a minor mention of the Wisconsin matter in one post in this
topic, but extensive discussion of this issue should be directed to the topic that focuses on this issue. Otherwise we have two different topics, one of which does not focus on this issue, this one, discussing the same issue.

Actually I'm FB not Duck, but I'm sure you'll make some witty attempt at trying to point out that there is no difference between the two.

But go ahead and continue to ignore the facts. It suits you.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 24, 2011, 10:48:10 PM
Why do you continue to IGNORE the FACTS? The workers agreed to ALL of those concessions, and all they asked was that they keep the ability to negotiate in the future.

Governor says "NO", just wants to bust the unions for his owner.

Fluff:
Last thing I'll say on Wisconsin deal unless I'm in the appropriate topic.
You castigate me for ignoring facts. The unions conceded. Well you were responding to a post of mine that was made "before" the unions conceded.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 24, 2011, 10:54:13 PM
Actually I'm FB not Duck, but I'm sure you'll make some witty attempt at trying to point out that there is no difference between the two.

Hard to keep track when you get 4 responses while you're responding
to the previous post.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on February 25, 2011, 05:01:34 AM
We will only know what is negotiable and what will be passed and what will be signed into law when the MIA Senators return.

At least we won't have to wait for passage of the bill to know what's in it....: )

peace

What I'm wondering is this:  What union do those MIA senators belong to?  Why weren't they fired?  Maybe they had collective bargaining let them get paid from home, without doing anything.

Sorry people.   You don't show up for work, your *** gets fired in my book.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 25, 2011, 06:24:41 AM
Hard to keep track when you get 4 responses while you're responding
to the previous post.
That one is even lamer than the one I came up for you. Especially since the name of the poster is in the quote. 8*
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 25, 2011, 10:36:50 AM
That one is even lamer than the one I came up for you. Especially since the name of the poster is in the quote. 8*

Fluff:
Please accept my sincere apology for mixing up you and Duck.
I'm sorry my oversight upset you so much. Please forgive me.

 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on February 25, 2011, 11:29:01 AM
Fluff:
Please accept my sincere apology for mixing up you and Duck.
I'm sorry my oversight upset you so much. Please forgive me.

 
LMAO!! Whatever John, whatever.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on February 25, 2011, 10:28:47 PM
Just watched a clip of Rand paul on David Lettermen. Letterman attacks Paul with basic liberal arguments again and again. Paul answers. Letterman replies he doesn't know why but he disagrees.
And so it goes. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 01, 2011, 09:27:29 PM
Believe I heard a new GAO report is going to tell us the Federal Government has 54 different programs to teach financial literacy to the folks. I thought about it for a couple seconds. Then I damn near wet myself when I thought of the irony of it all.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 06, 2011, 06:28:26 PM
Listening to C-span where committee speaking with Bernanke. I think is was Maxine Waters. She was complaining that minorities and people of modest incomes are unable to get financing. Wasn't that the hue and cry behind the Community Reinvestment Act? I would submit the reason these people can't get loans today is they don't qualify for them. The only way they would qualify is by lowering lending standards, and we've been there, done that. Then on other occasions I've seen her railing about preditory lending taking advantage of the poor. Either this woman doesn't have a single clue, or she is pandering to a constituency who she believes doesn't have a clue (and maybe they don't), or both.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on March 06, 2011, 06:41:32 PM
Maxine Waters just grates my nerves.....and comes across as I suspect here IQ level allows.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 06, 2011, 06:46:16 PM
And yet, since 1993, she keeps being re-elected.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 06, 2011, 07:21:51 PM
And yet, since 1993, she keeps being re-elected.

Doesn't reflect very well on her constituency does it?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 06, 2011, 07:33:04 PM
She's not the only one. Check out longevity on both sides of the aisle.The electorate(we) may not be as smart as we think we are.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 06, 2011, 08:24:41 PM
She's not the only one. Check out longevity on both sides of the aisle.The electorate(we) may not be as smart as we think we are.

Well Sammy often times the parties don't give us much to work with.
On my side of the aisle Bob Dole, John McCain, George W. Bush to name a few.   
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 06, 2011, 08:38:08 PM
Ever think of changing parties?... Never mind.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 06, 2011, 11:21:43 PM
Ever think of changing parties?... Never mind.

No just sweat it out. In perspective we were probably better off with
divided governent with Clinton then we were with GW Bush with his majorities. Yet with Obama we would have been better off with a dog with a note in his mouth than a man who has been voting present
and unaccouted for, his whole political life. 

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 08, 2011, 08:37:52 PM
Well we could be seeing a showdown on the 2010 non-budget with a trillion and half deficit. Republicans are calling for $ 61 billion in cuts and the Dems around $ 6 billion. My take is Republican's proposal is
somewhat cautious and the Dems proposal absolutely criminal. Dems
appear poised to pounce politically on the "heartless" Republicans for
their own political gain. Country is going to hell in a handbasket, oh
well. If the Dems are successful, and the Republicans get hammered by the folks in this round, we really are all done.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 08, 2011, 09:49:40 PM
Majority Lead Reid castigated Republican budgets cuts because funds would be cut for the Cowboy Poetry festival on Northern Nevada. Now the point is not to simply glob on to a incredibly stupid gothcha Reid moment. The point is it the leader of the Dems would stare a trillion plus deficit in the eye and tell us cutting funds for this "festival" is
reckless. Well if we can't cut funding for this "festival" where will we ever find anything to cut?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on March 08, 2011, 11:08:52 PM
Well we could be seeing a showdown on the 2010 non-budget with a trillion and half deficit. Republicans are calling for $ 61 billion in cuts and the Dems around $ 6 billion. My take is Republican's proposal is
somewhat cautious and the Dems proposal absolutely criminal. Dems
appear poised to pounce politically on the "heartless" Republicans for
their own political gain. Country is going to hell in a handbasket, oh
well.
If the Dems are successful, and the Republicans get hammered by the folks in this round, we really are all done.

Funny...I had the exact opposite thought. We do agree however on the country is going to hell in a handbasket :)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 09, 2011, 08:08:44 PM
Yep, you and your tea radicals got their way.  now we have a bunch of state dictatorships taking away our representative government.  Next step, disallow Obama from being on the ballot in some states and you can install a federal dictator too.  Oh, if not you can all don your brown shirts and manufacture a reason.

So, yes, John, you got your wish and we are all but done.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 09, 2011, 10:20:58 PM
Yep, you and your tea radicals got their way.  now we have a bunch of state dictatorships taking away our representative government.  Next step, disallow Obama from being on the ballot in some states and you can install a federal dictator too.  Oh, if not you can all don your brown shirts and manufacture a reason.

So, yes, John, you got your wish and we are all but done.

Duck:
Pretty worked up I see. You say taking away representative government? Well, just because your side got absolutely clobbered in the 2010 elections, lost a whole bunch of their majorities in the states, and therefore can no longer dictate the agenda, doesn't mean the whole system of representative government has been undermined. Your side's agenda was rebuked by the voters and now you're side is essentially promoting anarchy, not Democracy.
 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 09, 2011, 10:40:01 PM
Duck:
Pretty worked up I see. You say taking away representative government? Well, just because your side got absolutely clobbered in the 2010 elections, lost a whole bunch of their majorities in the states, and therefore can no longer dictate the agenda, doesn't mean the whole system of representative government has been undermined. Your side's agenda was rebuked by the voters and now you're side is essentially promoting anarchy, not Democracy.
 
You got it backwards as usual.  YOUR tea raggers pushed for anarchy and are getting it.

Yeah, the R/teas radicals won, does that give you the right to take away the rights of the people and create the tea bagger fascist states of America?  Should I start practicing my Heil Kopke yet?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 09, 2011, 10:45:19 PM
John, by your excuse then the D's should have just tossed out any cotes in Washington and made a public healthcare option and only that in a month or less without the tea radical lies to slow it down.  Guess Representative democracy is not for all of us.  You wanted and got fascist dictators for all of us. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 09, 2011, 11:02:57 PM
Duck and the other Libs are going nuts. How dare the Republicans dare cut spending. They're cruel? Who cares if the states are
going bankrupt? Don't you dare cut state employees wages, benefits and pensions. Don't repair the roads, lay off state employees with
little senority, don't put money into the classrooms, just raise everybody's taxes, but don't you dare cut state employees wage and benefit packages.

Nationally, we have a $ 1.5 trillion dollar deficit. 40% of the money the Federal Government spends is either borrowed or printed. The value of the dollar is sinking fast.  What will it take before it sinks into the Ducks of this country that the country is in a financial crisis? Will it take inflation at 15% or 20%, and rising, or 20 percent plus unemployment? The Republicans propose cutting spending 2.5% this year and the Dems 1/4 of 1 %.

Let me ask you this. If you found youself in dire financial straights
and your monthly expenses were $ 2000 do you really think reducing this amount by $ 50.00 a month would drastically impact on your lifestyle? And if you were seriously in debt, facing bankruptsy, do you think you might be inclined to cut way more than $ 50? 
 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 09, 2011, 11:17:10 PM
You got it backwards as usual.  YOUR tea raggers pushed for anarchy and are getting it.

Yeah, the R/teas radicals won, does that give you the right to take away the rights of the people and create the tea bagger fascist states of America?  Should I start practicing my Heil Kopke yet?

Nonsense. Us teas, and the independants, were fed up and we went to the polls and we kicked your liberal butts. Collective bargaining is not a "right" no matter how many times you say it is. It was created legislatively and it can be rescinded legislatively. Now if you don't like it, stop your whining and take back the legislatures and governorships you lost fair and square. 

PS: Aren't you the one always upbraiding others for name calling.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 09, 2011, 11:19:03 PM
Duck and the other Libs are going nuts. How dare the Republicans dare cut spending. They're cruel? Who cares if the states are
going bankrupt? Don't you dare cut state employees wages, benefits and pensions. Don't repair the roads, lay off state employees with
little senority, don't put money into the classrooms, just raise everybody's taxes, but don't you dare cut state employees wage and benefit packages.

Nationally, we have a $ 1.5 trillion dollar deficit. 40% of the money the Federal Government spends is either borrowed or printed. The value of the dollar is sinking fast.  What will it take before it sinks into the Ducks of this country that the country is in a financial crisis? Will it take inflation at 15% or 20%, and rising, or 20 percent plus unemployment? The Republicans propose cutting spending 2.5% this year and the Dems 1/4 of 1 %.

Let me ask you this. If you found youself in dire financial straights
and your monthly expenses were $ 2000 do you really think reducing this amount by $ 50.00 a month would drastically impact on your lifestyle? And if you were seriously in debt, facing bankruptsy, do you think you might be inclined to cut way more than $ 50? 
 
eliminating unions is cutting the budget?  How?  Wisc. agreed to all concessions if he took eliminating collective bargaining off the table.  Nope, it is the budget. then takes it out of the budget and passes it as a normal bill.  You are a coward Kopke, you have to eliminate the other team to win.  You and your tea radicals are fascist dictators and YOU want them.

how about if your new dictator comes and says Monroe is no longer a city, that the elected board and mayor are gone, and then sells off all public property for a few bucks to his rich cronies.  There ya go, you got it.  That is what your chosen have done.  They can come in and kill a city, fire all employees including police and sell off the spoils with just the dictators say so.  Nice budget fix there tea radical.

Hey John, who is going to pay the taxes after you drive down everyones wages to nothing?  Are you going to applaud the removal of work safety rules too.  They are coming because they cost your idols money.  No need to worry about the peasants, just kill them off early, right John.  Money is more important to you than people are and that is so very sad.

John, I know there is a fiscal crisis.  Do you know why.  I think not because you are deluded.  You idols created it, caused it, gave tax cuts to the rich to reduce revenue, then do it some more, and then when it was really bad, did it again.  Did it create jobs.  LOL yeah in other countries as they exported ours.  So, you tell me when you will get YOUR head out of the sand and see that the rich are getting super fantastically rich as the rest of us go down the tubes? 

So, it is okay to cut pay for millions so that your idols, the rich, can get richer?  It is okay to create a stupid and illiterate peasantry that have little or no value of life, just for greed sake....

S, join Smash and toast the deaths of millions for your few dollars, you fought hard for fascism and won... for now. Soon, you will be with the rest of the peasants.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 09, 2011, 11:25:58 PM
Nonsense. Us teas, and the independants, were fed up and we went to the polls and we kicked your liberal butts. Collective bargaining is not a "right" no matter how many times you say it is. It was created legislatively and it can be rescinded legislatively. Now if you don't like it, stop your whining and take back the legislatures and governorships you lost fair and square. 

PS: Aren't you the one always upbraiding others for name calling.
Okay, so it is not a right.I disagree but whatever.  You won and now not only do you advocate reducing worker wages by huge amounts and giving that to the rich, you advocate selling public assets off to the rich so that they can raise prices and make money off of it instead.  Nice.

john, it isn't a game of win or lose with politics.  You are destroying peoples lives.  REAL PEOPLE.  You think it is going to be nice for those you decree, just on your say so, that they make too much.  Is it right to take away the pension they thought that they had for the last twenty years because you want an extra dollar in your pocket, so they can starve for all you care.  That isn't winning politics, that is hurting real genuine people in the name of greed.  How many are you going to put on the streets homeless with no food in the name of your personal greed?

It was not an insult but a real question.  you sought the Reich, and it seems to be flowering to your delight.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 09, 2011, 11:48:35 PM
Okay, so it is not a right.I disagree but whatever.  You won and now not only do you advocate reducing worker wages by huge amounts and giving that to the rich, you advocate selling public assets off to the rich so that they can raise prices and make money off of it instead.  Nice.

john, it isn't a game of win or lose with politics.  You are destroying peoples lives.  REAL PEOPLE.  You think it is going to be nice for those you decree, just on your say so, that they make too much.  Is it right to take away the pension they thought that they had for the last twenty years because you want an extra dollar in your pocket, so they can starve for all you care.  That isn't winning politics, that is hurting real genuine people in the name of greed.  How many are you going to put on the streets homeless with no food in the name of your personal greed?

It was not an insult but a real question.  you sought the Reich, and it seems to be flowering to your delight.

Duck:
Nonsense again. Making state employees pay 6% percent of their "premium quality" health insurance policies is not drastic. I pay 100% of my health insurance and it ain't nearly as good as theirs.
And my "pension" is funded 100% by me. So don't give me this completely over the top crap about "destroying their lives" especially when I have to pick up the tab for theirs. Friend of mine's wife just retired as teacher at 54 years of age and gets $ 41K per year and health benefits. If she lives to current life expectancy (78 years) she will have worked for 30 years and collected a pension (for no work) for 24 years. There ain't no tears in my eye for these folks.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 09, 2011, 11:51:08 PM
Okay, so it is not a right.I disagree but whatever.  You won and now not only do you advocate reducing worker wages by huge amounts and giving that to the rich, you advocate selling public assets off to the rich so that they can raise prices and make money off of it instead.  Nice.

john, it isn't a game of win or lose with politics.  You are destroying peoples lives.  REAL PEOPLE.  You think it is going to be nice for those you decree, just on your say so, that they make too much.  Is it right to take away the pension they thought that they had for the last twenty years because you want an extra dollar in your pocket, so they can starve for all you care.  That isn't winning politics, that is hurting real genuine people in the name of greed.  How many are you going to put on the streets homeless with no food in the name of your personal greed?

It was not an insult but a real question. you sought the Reich, and it seems to be flowering to your delight.

LOL thats just slightly over the top... just slightly.

Duck... how would you like to cover the deficits faced by almost every state in the nation?  And even better, how does one state eliminating collective bargaining rights (which is going to be overturned by the US Supreme Court anyways) make the rich richer... it may help balance a budget but the rich get richer???  How?

Way back when times were good (remember those times) States, Auto Companies, Municipalities, School Districts, etc. etc. made stupid decisions and decided not only to pay folks well while they worked but to go ahead and pay them for years and years after they quit working.  Today's worker is paying the price, and what is the outcry from all of those who benefitted so nicely?  DON'T YOU DARE TAX MY PENSION!!!  You want to tal.k greed duck... please use BOTH sides of your mouth and acknowledge that the working man helped get us into the very problem that we now face.  Times were awsome for the oldtimers financially, they didn't have to save a dime, they knew they were gonna feast off of the rest of us, and have.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 10, 2011, 12:14:04 AM
Duck:
Nonsense again. Making state employees pay 6% percent of their "premium quality" health insurance policies is not drastic. I pay 100% of my health insurance and it ain't nearly as good as theirs.
And my "pension" is funded 100% by me. So don't give me this completely over the top crap about "destroying their lives" especially when I have to pick up the tab for theirs. Friend of mine's wife just retired as teacher at 54 years of age and gets $ 41K per year and health benefits. If she lives to current life expectancy (78 years) she will have worked for 30 years and collected a pension (for no work) for 24 years. There ain't no tears in my eye for these folks.

Poor Johnny.  They earned what they got through hard work and education, and you did not.  But, take it away from them so they hurt because you couldn't measure up... is that it?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 10, 2011, 12:22:19 AM
Poor Johnny.  They earned what they got through hard work and education, and you did not.  But, take it away from them so they hurt because you couldn't measure up... is that it?

There are people other than teachers that get there through hard work and education duck... that was a fairly backhanded comment.

Enlightenment is not a trait aquired only by the left (though at times I think they fail to realize that fact).
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 10, 2011, 12:22:45 AM
LOL thats just slightly over the top... just slightly.

Duck... how would you like to cover the deficits faced by almost every state in the nation?  And even better, how does one state eliminating collective bargaining rights (which is going to be overturned by the US Supreme Court anyways) make the rich richer... it may help balance a budget but the rich get richer???  How?

Way back when times were good (remember those times) States, Auto Companies, Municipalities, School Districts, etc. etc. made stupid decisions and decided not only to pay folks well while they worked but to go ahead and pay them for years and years after they quit working.  Today's worker is paying the price, and what is the outcry from all of those who benefitted so nicely?  DON'T YOU DARE TAX MY PENSION!!!  You want to tal.k greed duck... please use BOTH sides of your mouth and acknowledge that the working man helped get us into the very problem that we now face.  Times were awsome for the oldtimers financially, they didn't have to save a dime, they knew they were gonna feast off of the rest of us, and have.


The argument from the right since 1980 has been give tax cuts to the rich and it will make the economy better and we all win.  The economy faltered and finally fell, yet still the give tax cuts to the rich keeps on going.  I agree that spending is too high, but I also see that revenue decreased dramatically while spending by went up.  now, it always was the slur that the right made of tax and spend, but the R's took it to a new level and did cut taxes and spend even more.

What i am saying is that the budgets are two part problems, reduction of taxes from the rich have increased the effect of spending.

Good argument that the governments of the past sold lies.  They promised pay in the future instead of better wages then.  It is working out well to take them away.  As far as taxing pensions, fine with me, that way they can reduce the taxes of the rich a bit more.

I don't have the answers J. but reducing all workers wages will not make it better.  And it will trickle down to everyone.  If the middle class declines, then everyone else goes down too, except the rich.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 10, 2011, 12:25:20 AM
There are people other than teachers that get there through hard work and education duck... that was a fairly backhanded comment.

Enlightenment is not a trait aquired only by the left (though at times I think they fail to realize that fact).
Derived from his post that he got no paid pension and paid his own health insurance.  The post seemed pumped full of envy over having others get what he did not.  I am sure John worked hard for everything he got, and I don't want to take anything monetarily away from him.  i just don't want him taking from others too.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 10, 2011, 12:39:57 AM
The argument from the right since 1980 has been give tax cuts to the rich and it will make the economy better and we all win.  The economy faltered and finally fell, yet still the give tax cuts to the rich keeps on going.  I agree that spending is too high, but I also see that revenue decreased dramatically while spending by went up.  now, it always was the slur that the right made of tax and spend, but the R's took it to a new level and did cut taxes and spend even more.

What i am saying is that the budgets are two part problems, reduction of taxes from the rich have increased the effect of spending.

Good argument that the governments of the past sold lies.  They promised pay in the future instead of better wages then.  It is working out well to take them away.  As far as taxing pensions, fine with me, that way they can reduce the taxes of the rich a bit more.

I don't have the answers J. but reducing all workers wages will not make it better.  And it will trickle down to everyone.  If the middle class declines, then everyone else goes down too, except the rich.

And I will agree with you that the Bush tax cuts were of no use to the economy, all that money went straight into hiding.  When RR lowered the top rate, the economy was STARVING for those cuts, and those cuts did work and income to the treasury flourished.  The Bush tax cuts came at a time when very few would use them to stimulate... the hunger for economic expansion wasn't there like it was in the 80's.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on March 10, 2011, 07:18:38 AM
The argument from the right since 1980 has been give tax cuts to the rich and it will make the economy better and we all win.  The economy faltered and finally fell, yet still the give tax cuts to the rich keeps on going.  I agree that spending is too high, but I also see that revenue decreased dramatically while spending by went up.  now, it always was the slur that the right made of tax and spend, but the R's took it to a new level and did cut taxes and spend even more.


Yes, Bush (and other Rep's) increased spending, and he should be called out on that.  No doubt.

But that was NOTHING compared to what Obama is doing right now, duck, and you know it.  Please stop blaming everything on the "right". 

Obama's deficit for February 2011 is $223 BILLION, which is more than ALL of 2007, under Bush.  Obama already holds the record for deficit spending in 2009 at $1.4 TRILLION.  Maybe he's just trying to break his own record, I don't know.


Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-lexington/february-2011-deficit-63-billion-more-than-the-entire-2007-deficit?cid=parsely#parsely (http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-lexington/february-2011-deficit-63-billion-more-than-the-entire-2007-deficit?cid=parsely#parsely)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 10, 2011, 08:14:35 AM
Please stop blaming everything on the "right". 
Well, they want to cut funding to medicaid, medicare, social security, education, and eliminate collective bargaining rights, and give tax breaks to large corporations, and foreign corporations.

They want the ability to take over local governments and put in place their own selected leaders.

Why shouldn't we blame the "right" again?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 10, 2011, 08:29:12 AM
Well, they want to cut funding to medicaid, medicare, social security, education, and eliminate collective bargaining rights, and give tax breaks to large corporations, and foreign corporations.

They want the ability to take over local governments and put in place their own selected leaders.

Why shouldn't we blame the "right" again?

I assume you are talking about emergency financial managers like Detroit Public Schools Robert Bob?

The one appointed by Jennifer Granhold the former DEMOCRAT governor of MI.  Why is it when the "left" does these things you think its a wonderful idea, when the "right" proposes them... facism!?

<sarcasm on>

I am pretty sure the right also wants to starve children, burn black churches and black list all Democrats from voting in 2012, I just heard that on MSNBC so it must be true.

<sarcasm off>

Look something has to be done about spending, and then once we get spending reigned in then they real cutting has to take place.  How else do you propose to pay for ANYTHING.

The "left" is just as guilty at cutting spending for medicaid, medicare, and education as the "right" especially when there is a new project to pay for.  The left has also been complicit in tax breaks for large and foreign corporations, so where are we?  Right back where we always are... duck and Kopke pointing at each other saying "it's your fault" and the politicians gleefully going about ruining us while we willfully distract ourselves.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 10, 2011, 10:21:02 AM
I assume you are talking about emergency financial managers like Detroit Public Schools Robert Bob?

The one appointed by Jennifer Granhold the former DEMOCRAT governor of MI.  Why is it when the "left" does these things you think its a wonderful idea, when the "right" proposes them... facism!?

<sarcasm on>

I am pretty sure the right also wants to starve children, burn black churches and black list all Democrats from voting in 2012, I just heard that on MSNBC so it must be true.

<sarcasm off>

Look something has to be done about spending, and then once we get spending reigned in then they real cutting has to take place.  How else do you propose to pay for ANYTHING.

The "left" is just as guilty at cutting spending for medicaid, medicare, and education as the "right" especially when there is a new project to pay for.  The left has also been complicit in tax breaks for large and foreign corporations, so where are we?  Right back where we always are... duck and Kopke pointing at each other saying "it's your fault" and the politicians gleefully going about ruining us while we willfully distract ourselves.
First off, was not aware of Jenny doing that, and no it doesn't make it any better. Also, that was a one time deal, and the new legislation allows for much, MUCH more than what was done before.

Again, 1st time bad, doing it on a much larger and grander scale, worse.

As far as your sarcasm comment, it's really not that far from the truth, I don't see ANY sarcasm in that statement at all.

Something has to be done about spending? Fine, but giving the money to corporations as tax cuts isn't reducing spending and isn't going to help any budget problems.

Corporations that get massive tax cuts aren't just going to turn around and start hiring people out of the goodness of their hearts. They will hire, if and only if, there is a need to do so.

Giving them tax breaks won't make them reduce their pricing on goods sold either. If we raise taxes on them, they pass it on to the consumer, if we lower taxes on them, they just have increased their bottom line. Nothing more.

If you believe anything else, you're delusional.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 10, 2011, 10:29:25 AM
First off, was not aware of Jenny doing that, and no it doesn't make it any better. Also, that was a one time deal, and the new legislation allows for much, MUCH more than what was done before.

Again, 1st time bad, doing it on a much larger and grander scale, worse.

As far as your sarcasm comment, it's really not that far from the truth, I don't see ANY sarcasm in that statement at all.

Something has to be done about spending? Fine, but giving the money to corporations as tax cuts isn't reducing spending and isn't going to help any budget problems.

Corporations that get massive tax cuts aren't just going to turn around and start hiring people out of the goodness of their hearts. They will hire, if and only if, there is a need to do so.

Giving them tax breaks won't make them reduce their pricing on goods sold either. If we raise taxes on them, they pass it on to the consumer, if we lower taxes on them, they just have increased their bottom line. Nothing more.

If you believe anything else, you're delusional.

Just pointed out that the left is AS GUILTY as the right, nothing more.  You skirted that point though.

I believe some cities were also put into receivership under Granholm, Flint seems to stick in my head but I will have to do some digging.

The left gives out the massive corporate tax breaks as well, and if you really think the right really wants to starve babies and burn black churches then I think it may actually be you that is closer to delusional.  IMO.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 10, 2011, 10:38:24 AM
Flint was placed into receivership by Engler in 2002, Pontiac was the city placed into receivership by Granholm in 2009.

So no, not a one time deal by Jenny G. and I have not looked into schools, counties or townships yet.


Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: old salt on March 10, 2011, 10:47:18 AM
Cain/West 2012
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 10, 2011, 10:53:00 AM
Just pointed out that the left is AS GUILTY as the right, nothing more.  You skirted that point though.

I believe some cities were also put into receivership under Granholm, Flint seems to stick in my head but I will have to do some digging.

The left gives out the massive corporate tax breaks as well, and if you really think the right really wants to starve babies and burn black churches then I think it may actually be you that is closer to delusional.  IMO.
Hey those starving babies aren't my problem, and poor children will just grow up to be democrats so who needs them anyhow?

Black people vote democrat so might as well get rid of them where they congregate.

Quote
Giving them tax breaks won't make them reduce their pricing on goods sold either. If we raise taxes on them, they pass it on to the consumer, if we lower taxes on them, they just have increased their bottom line. Nothing more.
You are no slouch yourself when it comes to skirting issues.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 10, 2011, 04:32:48 PM
Hey those starving babies aren't my problem, and poor children will just grow up to be democrats so who needs them anyhow?

Black people vote democrat so might as well get rid of them where they congregate.
You are no slouch yourself when it comes to skirting issues.

LOL... great nothing post.

If not agreeing with you 100% means skirting an issue then I guess I'm guilty.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 11, 2011, 06:52:31 PM
Derived from his post that he got no paid pension and paid his own health insurance.  The post seemed pumped full of envy over having others get what he did not.  I am sure John worked hard for everything he got, and I don't want to take anything monetarily away from him.  i just don't want him taking from others too.

Duck:
You say envy. Well the teacher and her retirement benefits come as a result of working 10 months a year (not including a few more weeks during the school year) for 30 years. I, like most folks, that are "paying" for her retirement, will work 40 plus years  and there won't be a defined pension benefit waiting for us. Is that envy, or is something out of whack?

Then you say you don't want to take money away from me. Well that is exactly what is happening with the level of taxation that affords teachers these premium retirement benefits. Government doesn't have it's own money Duck. So the money folks in the private sector could have used for their own retirement is "taken" to fund teacher and other public employee retirement benefits. It isn't envy Duck, I just don't like getting ripped off.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Collegekid on March 11, 2011, 09:13:56 PM
Duck:
You say envy. Well the teacher and her retirement benefits come as a result of working 10 months a year (not including a few more weeks during the school year) for 30 years. I, like most folks, that are "paying" for her retirement, will work 40 plus years  and there won't be a defined pension benefit waiting for us. Is that envy, or is something out of whack?

Then you say you don't want to take money away from me. Well that is exactly what is happening with the level of taxation that affords teachers these premium retirement benefits. Government doesn't have it's own money Duck. So the money folks in the private sector could have used for their own retirement is "taken" to fund teacher and other public employee retirement benefits. It isn't envy Duck, I just don't like getting ripped off.



This just comes off as whiny.  I could sit and debunk to you how teachers earn their pay, work year round, and put in more hours than most other workers, but you are too ignorant to see that it happens and instead choose to touch only on talking points not facts, so I won't.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 11, 2011, 09:19:14 PM
Better to leave it right there.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 11, 2011, 09:24:51 PM
This just comes off as whiny.  I could sit and debunk to you how teachers earn their pay, work year round, and put in more hours than most other workers, but you are too ignorant to see that it happens and instead choose to touch only on talking points not facts, so I won't.

College:
Facts? What facts? You say you could debunk me, but you didn't. The real reason you won't is because you can't. Just words.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Collegekid on March 11, 2011, 09:32:42 PM
College:
Facts? What facts? You say you could debunk me, but you didn't. The real reason you won't is because you can't. Just words.

Yes, I said I could, and I can. But I won't because you'll simply dismiss it because I'm 'young' or 'idealistic' or whatever your codeword of the week is.  That's all you've ever done in the past.  If you really want to learn what teachers do (and I suspect you don't, you're content living with the wool over your eyes,) feel free to look into how many hours they spend writing lesson plans, grading papers, preparing projects, talking to parents, setting up class rooms, etc. Fact as it is, most teacher's are underpaid for the amount of work they do, and some like in any field put in the minimum required to get by, most aren't like that though.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 11, 2011, 09:43:26 PM
Yes, I said I could, and I can. But I won't because you'll simply dismiss it because I'm 'young' or 'idealistic' or whatever your codeword of the week is.  (quote)

College:
Well one excuse is as good as another. Problem you have isn't being  being young or idealistic. What you have to learn is to be able to make
an argument that makes sense. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 11, 2011, 09:45:24 PM
If you take off the rose-colored glasses, you'd find that most put in the minimum. Been going on for years.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Collegekid on March 11, 2011, 09:48:14 PM
If you take off the rose-colored glasses, you'd find that most put in the minimum. Been going on for years.

Sorry, that's just not true.  I've been in the system as both a student and a teacher in the past decade, if you look at teachers you will find that most are honest and hardworking, and very few put in the 'minimum'.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 11, 2011, 09:51:59 PM
OK
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 11, 2011, 09:58:00 PM
College:
Have you had a job in the private sector since you graduated from college? What subject do you teach?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Collegekid on March 11, 2011, 10:01:45 PM
College:
Have you had a job in the private sector since you graduated from college? What subject do you teach?

I've always had a private sector job thanks. I chose not to go into teaching after doing my student teaching.  I still sub on occasion, and I'm licensed to teach, I'm just not working as a teacher at the moment. Good try attempting to pull the private vs. public sector thing though, sorry it didn't work.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 11, 2011, 10:31:54 PM
I've always had a private sector job thanks. I chose not to go into teaching after doing my student teaching.  I still sub on occasion, and I'm licensed to teach, I'm just not working as a teacher at the moment. Good try attempting to pull the private vs. public sector thing though, sorry it didn't work.

Don't have to apologize for private versus public sector. Private succeeds or fails on merit. Public sector?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 11, 2011, 11:29:43 PM
College:
Have you had a job in the private sector since you graduated from college? What subject do you teach?
Pay attention much? Of course he's had a private sector job! Try not to be so full of yourself!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 12, 2011, 12:06:33 AM
Pay attention much? Of course he's had a private sector job! Try not to be so full of yourself!

Well Sammy, you say of course he had a private sector job!. Of course? Now how would I know that? Sammy you are really reaching trying to regain some kind of credibility. Not working.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 12, 2011, 10:22:30 AM
College:
Facts? What facts? You say you could debunk me, but you didn't. The real reason you won't is because you can't. Just words.
The problem is John, he COULD explain it to the rest of us.

You just wouldn't understand.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 12, 2011, 10:24:13 AM
If you take off the rose-colored glasses, you'd find that most put in the minimum. Been going on for years.
What makes you say that? What proof do you have?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 12, 2011, 10:25:03 AM
And if you want to use the students test scores as proof, that only proves that the students and their parents are lazy SOB's.

Not the teachers.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 12, 2011, 05:39:56 PM
Duck:
You say envy. Well the teacher and her retirement benefits come as a result of working 10 months a year (not including a few more weeks during the school year) for 30 years. I, like most folks, that are "paying" for her retirement, will work 40 plus years  and there won't be a defined pension benefit waiting for us. Is that envy, or is something out of whack?

Then you say you don't want to take money away from me. Well that is exactly what is happening with the level of taxation that affords teachers these premium retirement benefits. Government doesn't have it's own money Duck. So the money folks in the private sector could have used for their own retirement is "taken" to fund teacher and other public employee retirement benefits. It isn't envy Duck, I just don't like getting ripped off.



Well, John….
If I remember right you are, or were before you started collecting SS, self employed.  There was nothing at all to stop you from taking two months off without pay every year too.

Many years ago teachers negotiated contracts.  Schools sad that they could not pay higher wages NOW, but they would establish interest bearing accounts that had less yearly payments because of the interest that would accrue for FUTURE benefits, instead of current.  You say that they were wrong, but I bet anything that you were all in favor back then because it meant that YOUR taxes would not go up then. 

Tell me, John, did you tell your mortgage lender that they were overcharging on your mortgage payments and tell them that the new payment would be half?  When you sold that car to your relative on payments did you later double the payment amount because you decided a year later that the car was worth more?

If you want to say it was a bad deal, that the teachers should have had big pay increases back then instead of future pay, fine.  But you made the deal.  You benefitted hen.  Now, just because you want more in your pocket instead of living up to the obligations you agreed to, your choice is to punish.

It is obvious that you and yours are out to literally kill off public education.  You don’t care whose rights you tromp on to get there. It doesn’t matter to you that legal contracts mean nothing; law means nothing except a way for you and yours to manipulate your personal pocket book. 

You know, John, those contracts didn’t just go up; they went down too, and still can.  But no, not you and yours, not anymore. It was good to keep them from going up too quick, but they can’t go down quick enough for your pocketbook.  So, just kill it.

So, now you decide that it is best for your pocketbook to void the contract that you chose because it was best for your pocketbook then…  to hell with law and contracts.  Good thing you retired and got your SS for yourself before you eliminate that for the ones that follow.  Good timing too because contracts seem to be of no value anymore and people could choose to pay you or not for your work depending on their own pocketbook and not contracts or law.

Is it envy, or is something out of whack?  You tell me why it is okay to make a (as you said) thirty year promise and then take it away because you want money in YOUR pocket instead of theirs.  You tell me if it is anything other than “I can have mine, but they can’t have theirs.”.

“Then you say you don't want to take money away from me. Well that is exactly what is happening with the level of taxation that affords teachers these premium retirement benefits.”

See above, John.  You made promises, contractual legal promises for 30 years (your number) and now you want to take those promises back like a little kid playing Indian giver.  This isn’t about giving them more; it is about you wanting to keep the money you legally promised to them for yourself.

“So the money folks in the private sector could have used for their own retirement is "taken" to fund teacher and other public employee retirement benefits. It isn't envy Duck,”

The choice was made back then to KEEP more of your private sector money so that you could put it into retirement if you chose to.  Now, you failed to do what you claim and want to blame the “others” for what is your own fault.  So, now you want to “TAKE” from the teachers to fund YOUR retirement and never mind that there were contracts and law.  Never mind that it was better for your wallet then and now just want to change back out on the deal after you profited, and by doing that, profit more.

“I just don't like getting ripped off.”

LOL there ya go.  Tell that to the teachers you made promises to, and made legal contracts with.  Tell that to the ones you promised retirement pay to in exchange for lower wages back then that you profited from.

So, I suppose you are totally right, that it is not envy.  It is much more basic, total personal greed.

Ever notice, John, that the argument you and those you align with have one argument and only one, money for your pocket.  Greed.  Funny that people don’t matter.  Educating the future, sure if you can afford it privately, and that will be fewer and fewer as the years pass.  SS needs to be eliminated, but only for those that follow, not me, I get to keep mine (disclaimer: I AM NOT COLLECTING ANY FORM OF SS).  To hell with those people over there, they were too stupid to see that we can’t be trusted to follow the law and take away what we promised.  Let those poor die they
Money is everything and people mean nothing, and are worth nothing.

I ask again oh genius of the economic Republican made crisis… After you reduce ALL wages down to dirt poor, who will be left to pay for your idols share of taxes?

BTW, that really does show how made up your “crisis” is.  Tax cuts for the rich over and over that do not balance the budgets, but hey, take away from the poor and seniors and tax SHIFT it as an excuse, that does NOTHING to lower the deficits.

Or is it the plan to eliminate SS (except YOURS), Medicare, Medicaid, and anything else that helps people and then those left making a dollar a day can still pay half so your gods can make a few hundred million dollars a day and still not pay any.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 12, 2011, 05:43:05 PM
Gosh with post after post after post of John being off topic and his only posting is directly insulting ANYONE makes one think that he has no substance to his opinion and has to use insults to make others believe he actually had something to say.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Chips on March 12, 2011, 06:52:11 PM
So, just stick it to the education of our children and our senior citizens.
He promotes big business and Pure Michigan.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 12, 2011, 08:33:07 PM
Well Sammy, you say of course he had a private sector job!. Of course? Now how would I know that? Sammy you are really reaching trying to regain some kind of credibility. Not working.
Credibility? I don't need no stinkin' credibility! Pretty sure most here know where CK works. I f you don't, it ain't my fault.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 12, 2011, 08:39:04 PM
Duck:
Going to be some years before eligible for SS. You accuse me of name calling yet you accuse everyone on the other side of the isle "greedy".
Yet I notice when I've mentioned giving money to some charity you've never stepped up. Fluffy has. So my side is greedy, well conversely yours is into legal thievery and so are these union contracts you talk about. The unions bought and paid for the folks they were negotiating with. They weren't representing me. If these bought and paid for government folks were negotiating wages and benefits they knew they wouldn't have the money tocover them then they were committing a fraud in collusion with the union bosses. Yet you believe the taxpayers should make good on this fraud. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 12, 2011, 08:43:52 PM
What makes you say that? What proof do you have?
I don't need proof.  As you said, I can say whatever I want without proof . Fox news makes it so.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 12, 2011, 10:05:55 PM
Duck:
Going to be some years before eligible for SS. You accuse me of name calling yet you accuse everyone on the other side of the isle "greedy".
Yet I notice when I've mentioned giving money to some charity you've never stepped up. Fluffy has. So my side is greedy, well conversely yours is into legal thievery and so are these union contracts you talk about. The unions bought and paid for the folks they were negotiating with. They weren't representing me. If these bought and paid for government folks were negotiating wages and benefits they knew they wouldn't have the money tocover them then they were committing a fraud in collusion with the union bosses. Yet you believe the taxpayers should make good on this fraud. 


Well, John, my memory about events are not always great, but I am pretty sure you said you sold off your stocks and were retiring soon.  That was some time ago, so it was a good guess that you did retire.  I didn't realize you were so well off you could retire early.   It was a reasonable error and I apologize for it.

Well, you talk money, money, money always money and not people.  You want taxes reduced for your pocket and to hell with who it hurts.  You cry about the children and the money they will owe and don’t give a flying carpet about having a future populace so stupid they can’t read or write.  Now, if you know an alternate definition of being overly preoccupied with money above everything, I am open to that new definition.  Until then greedy is an appropriate one.

Really John, you know for a fact.  Are you the treasurer of teh charity and know my name?  Did you monitor each and every transaction with that charity as if it was going into your pocket?  You know for a fact… LOL… yeah… because you lie through your teeth so much you don’t know truth or anything that approximates it.  Now, you will probably call that an insult because I just told YOU the truth.

Glad you admit that your side is just motivated by greed.

LOL, something that is legal is not legal.  Okay…

How is a legal contract illegal, especially after the 30 years you mentioned?  It is only illegal IN YOUR OWN MIND and not based on the legal system of this country.  But, you will fix that to satisfy your greed, won’t you.  Just toss out law and make up whatever you want to line your pocket.

Another outright LIE.  They certainly were representing you. That is the form of government we have.  At least DID HAVE.  You know, elect people that REPRESENT YOU for different thinks like say CONTRACTS….  And don’t even try to pass off the LIE that all negotiations with teachers were exclusively Democrats and no Republican EVER negotiated… LOL You should be paid on Faux news for your propaganda.
 
Do you know what the economy will be in 30 years?  I sure don’t. I would think it would be better than now, but I don’t know.  However, your BS line is incomprehensible.  Negotiated “knowing” they wouldn’t have the money; BULL.  Your negotiators made a calculated decision.  Wages were going up because of inflation and your people decided that refraining from an increase then saved YOU money in exchange for pay later.  Now that later has come, you decree ILLEGALLY that the contract should not be upheld after all of these decades.  But, if YOU knew that they were dealing in bad faith back then, negotiating and KNOWING that they would not uphold the contract.  Then you should have taken it to court and nullified then.  Actually, if you knew it and NOW say you had the proof of it then YOU BROKE THE LAW by not showing a false contract at the time.  But, that is not the case because you KNEW no such thing. 

Now, John, I have said all of that in different ways in different post sand you still refuse to even bother reading.

It is not and never was “fraud”.  If you have proof that it was, then give it.   Otherwise your opinion is false.  What it is is a valid contract that your representatives entered into and are legally and contractually obligated to do.  You just WANT to steal their money from them to line your pocket.

Noticed you used another attack instead of answering the question once again.  Oh well not a surprise …
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 12, 2011, 10:43:09 PM
I don't need proof.  As you said, I can say whatever I want without proof . Fox news makes it so.
Thank god! I finally reached someone!

Welcome to the dark side. We have cookies!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 12, 2011, 10:44:24 PM
Duck:
Line my pocket? Well Duck I don't imagine if they reduce public employee wages, benefits pensions etc. they'll be sending me a check.
What it may mean is we'll be able to pave and maintain streets and hire back Sheriff Deputies the county was forced to lay off. Taxes
go higher and services decrease. Where is the money going?

UAW and GM for example negotiated contracts decades ago that ultimately lead to the bankruptsy of GM. UAW saw membership dwindle from 1.5 million to under 400K. The "remaining" 400K still enjoy good pay, great benefits and wonderful pensions. What about the 1.1 million who no longer have a job? They are collateral damage resulting from unions, and management, kicking the can down the road. That is reality.   
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 12, 2011, 10:45:09 PM
Well Sammy, you say of course he had a private sector job!. Of course? Now how would I know that? Sammy you are really reaching trying to regain some kind of credibility. Not working.
Anyone who has been paying attention on this forum for anytime at all knows that he works at a place in Toledo, not far from where SideCarFlip works at.

Oh that's right. You don't pay attention. You just blather on and on about nothing at all.

Please continue.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 12, 2011, 10:48:07 PM
Duck:
Line my pocket? Well Duck I don't imagine if they reduce public employee wages, benefits pensions etc. they'll be sending me a check.
Hey John. If we cut taxes on large corporations, do you think they will cut their prices on the items they sell, hire more people out of the goodness of their hearts, or just thank the government for a bigger dividend check?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 12, 2011, 11:00:13 PM
Anyone who has been paying attention on this forum for anytime at all knows that he works at a place in Toledo, not far from where SideCarFlip works at. Oh that's right. You don't pay attention. You just blather on and on about nothing at all.

Please continue.

Fluff:
Well Fluff and Sammy, unlike you two, I don't hang on CK's every post. As a matter of fact I do skip past a majority of CK's posts.
Yet somehow I don't feel castigated when you point out I've not
kept a file on the wonder that is CK.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 12, 2011, 11:03:19 PM
Hey John. If we cut taxes on large corporations, do you think they will cut their prices on the items they sell, hire more people out of the goodness of their hearts, or just thank the government for a bigger dividend check?

Well Fluff what does your post have to do with Duck's claim I'll be lining "my" pocket?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 12, 2011, 11:23:02 PM
Fluff:
Well Fluff and Sammy, unlike you two, I don't hang on CK's every post. As a matter of fact I do skip past a majority of CK's posts.
Yet somehow I don't feel castigated when you point out I've not
kept a file on the wonder that is CK.

CK is not a wonder,'Scuse me,CK. He is, however, a frequent poster here. If you're not familiar with that fact, maybe you need to pay attention to more than your own posts.I bet Fluffy and I are not the only ones familiar with posts from CK. I'm sure I've missed a couple.Not even always in agreement with him, as I'm sure he would attest. Please try to keep up to speed.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on March 12, 2011, 11:28:33 PM
Duck:
Going to be some years before eligible for SS. You accuse me of name calling yet you accuse everyone on the other side of the isle "greedy".
Yet I notice when I've mentioned giving money to some charity you've never stepped up. Fluffy has. So my side is greedy, well conversely yours is into legal thievery and so are these union contracts you talk about. The unions bought and paid for the folks they were negotiating with. They weren't representing me. If these bought and paid for government folks were negotiating wages and benefits they knew they wouldn't have the money tocover them then they were committing a fraud in collusion with the union bosses. Yet you believe the taxpayers should make good on this fraud.
You can't be serious. Must have been some hard miles put on you. I'm older than dirt yet you look like you could have been my great great grandfather.
Maybe by "some years" you meant two years.

Not sure why you have such difficulty paying attention.....it seems one would have more on the ball to be in sales.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 12, 2011, 11:30:45 PM
Thank god! I finally reached someone!

Welcome to the dark side. We have cookies!
Hope you mean chocolate chip,'cause I'm totally in the dark about computer cookies!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 12, 2011, 11:33:10 PM
CK is not a wonder,'Scuse me,CK. He is, however, a frequent poster here. If you're not familiar with that fact, maybe you need to pay attention to more than your own posts.I bet Fluffy and I are not the only ones familiar with posts from CK. I'm sure I've missed a couple.Not even always in agreement with him, as I'm sure he would attest. Please try to keep up to speed.

Well Sammy I consider my time valuable. Keeping up to speed on CK
is something I consider a waste of time. If you think it is worth your time, fine, that is your choice.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 12, 2011, 11:50:19 PM
You can't be serious. Must have been some hard miles put on you. I'm older than dirt yet you look like you could have been my great great grandfather.
Maybe by "some years" you meant two years.

Not sure why you have such difficulty paying attention.....it seems one would have more on the ball to be in sales.

FF:
Actually it would be 7 years. Are you happy? And how would you know what I look like? Stalking me, or just blowing it out you ***? You say "it seems one would have to have more on the ball to be in sales." Should I assume you have been in sales and therefore have even a small inkling of what you're talking about? How about you. Do you even work at all?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on March 12, 2011, 11:58:16 PM
FF:
Actually it would be 7 years. Are you happy? And how would you know what I look like? Stalking me, or just blowing it out you ***? You say "it seems one would have to have more on the ball to be in sales." Should I assume you have been in sales and therefore have even a small inkling of what you're talking about? How about you. Do you even work at all?
Removed direct link.

All one has to do is look at the pictures of the "conservative caucus of monroe county"...you're the one that looks pregnant with the glaring bald spot on your white haired head...standing next to the "Don't tread on me" flag.

You had a dirty MCSD look into my identity and are somehow involved with releasing my info on here.....but I'll refrain from doing what you did....besides...not the brightest move using your real name on a forum.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 13, 2011, 12:00:06 AM
Well Sammy I consider my time valuable. Keeping up to speed on CK
is something I consider a waste of time. If you think it is worth your time, fine, that is your choice.
I have decided to make it my life's work to follow every post of CK.Luckily, I'm retired, and this quest should be no hardship. CK, if i miss anything, I hope you will keep me up-to-date, and I will make sure John misses nothing.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 13, 2011, 01:01:46 AM
Removed direct link.

All one has to do is look at the pictures of the "conservative caucus of monroe county"...you're the one that looks pregnant with the glaring bald spot on your white haired head...standing next to the "Don't tread on me" flag.

You had a dirty MCSD look into my identity and are somehow involved with releasing my info on here.....but I'll refrain from doing what you did....besides...not the brightest move using your real name on a forum.

FF:
Well FF I don't have a bald spot and nary a gray hair, much less white hair.  Appears you mixed me up with someone else, and frankly, what's with attacking anyone's appearance? As for the your slanderous, and false, claim that I had the MCSD look into your identity. I know two deputies, now both retired. One participated in the forum. He, like a great many in the forum was, lets say, less than fond of you. I did not solicite information about you, "he" mentioned your name as part of our discussion on the various dweebs on the forum.

What I did do was mention just your first name in the forum, and only in response to your having trashed, by first and last name, in this "public" forum, a member of my family. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on March 13, 2011, 01:30:26 AM
FF:
Well FF I don't have a bald spot and nary a gray hair, much less white hair.  Appears you mixed me up with someone else, and frankly, what's with attacking anyone's appearance? As for the your slanderous, and false, claim that I had the MCSD look into your identity. I know two deputies, now both retired. One participated in the forum. He, like a great many in the forum was, lets say, less than fond of you. I did not solicite information about you, "he" mentioned your name as part of our discussion on the various dweebs on the forum.

What I did do was mention just your first name in the forum, and only in response to your having trashed, by first and last name, in this "public" forum, a member of my family.
Just repeating what you said on this forum....and don't bother lying again....not long ago you outright denied even speaking to a deputy. A person with your poor attention to detail (or poor memory) should never lie. No point in lying anyway.....be a man.....you use your real name on here and yet willingly drag it through the mud.....and don't think that people haven't noticed.....those that have agreed with your methods are just as slimy as you.

Hmmm...two people in the pictures of the CCMC booth...Dennis Milosch and you.....I figured you were the elderly one...so you must be the guy with the glasses.

Not an attack....just trying to be descriptive....perhaps portly would've been a better choice.
BTW....both individuals are portly.

Oh, and the cop that looked up my identity....retired or not, that's a dirty cop.

Speaking on a forum didn't give him cause to look into my identity.....nor reveal it....on the forum and certainly not to you.

So just let me know which cop did it and maybe his pension could be of better use to hire an active duty deputy.

Dirty cops shouldn't be rewarded.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 13, 2011, 03:08:03 AM
Just repeating what you said on this forum....and don't bother lying again....not long ago you outright denied even speaking to a deputy. A person with your poor attention to detail (or poor memory) should never lie. No point in lying anyway.....be a man.....you use your real name on here and yet willingly drag it through the mud.....and don't think that people haven't noticed.....those that have agreed with your methods are just as slimy as you.

Hmmm...two people in the pictures of the CCMC booth...Dennis Milosch and you.....I figured you were the elderly one...so you must be the guy with the glasses.

Not an attack....just trying to be descriptive....perhaps portly would've been a better choice.
BTW....both individuals are portly.

Oh, and the cop that looked up my identity....retired or not, that's a dirty cop.

Speaking on a forum didn't give him cause to look into my identity.....nor reveal it....on the forum and certainly not to you.

So just let me know which cop did it and maybe his pension could be of better use to hire an active duty deputy.

Dirty cops shouldn't be rewarded.

FF:
Well you accuse me of poor attention to detail, and lying. Yet you totally confused me with another person and then, true to form, you accuse "me" of lying? Priceless.

Dirty cop? You were the one that went ballistic on your son's case in this public forum. It didn't take a member of the FBI to figure out who you were. Both the police and the Sheriff's department knew you were a nonsensical crank. And they didn't do it at my bidding. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on March 13, 2011, 03:25:24 AM
FF:
Well you accuse me of poor attention to detail, and lying. Yet you totally confused me with another person and then, true to form, you accuse "me" of lying? Priceless.

Dirty cop? You were the one that went ballistic on your son's case in this public forum. It didn't take a member of the FBI to figure out who you were. Both the police and the Sheriff's department knew you were a nonsensical crank. And they didn't do it at my bidding.
50% chance considering the photo only shows two people.....I reasoned you MUST be the elderly of the two but hey, I tried to put you in a good light....the old guy at least stood on his feet while the other one can't get off his (apparently your) behind.....all five pictures!

No matter how you try to justify it....looking up my identity was illegal.

My name was never on any Monroe County complaint so the Monroe County Sheriff Deputy had to snoop deep to provide that info to you......totally unjustified!

If you had any real concern over the Sheriff being able to fund active patrols or believe in the concept of law and order, you'd provide the name of that rogue deputy.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 13, 2011, 03:57:19 AM
50% chance considering the photo only shows two people.....I reasoned you MUST be the elderly of the two but hey, I tried to put you in a good light....the old guy at least stood on his feet while the other one can't get off his (apparently your) behind.....all five pictures!

No matter how you try to justify it....looking up my identity was illegal.

My name was never on any Monroe County complaint so the Monroe County Sheriff Deputy had to snoop deep to provide that info to you......totally unjustified!

If you had any real concern over the Sheriff being able to fund active patrols or believe in the concept of law and order, you'd provide the name of that rogue deputy.

FF:
50% chance you aren't slandering someone meets your standards, but that's OK. I point out what a pig you truly are for falsely insulting me, yet there is no contrition,  you double up with a crack about my being over weight. Well you'll be delighted to hear I lost 22 pounds going through a cancer issue.  Happy?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on March 13, 2011, 04:10:50 AM
FF:
50% chance you aren't slandering someone meets your standards, but that's OK. I point out what a pig you truly are for falsely insulting me, yet there is no contrition,  you double up with a crack about my being over weight. Well you'll be delighted to hear I lost 22 pounds going through a cancer issue.  Happy?
I'll not ask what type of cancer....it seems your choice of words already lead me into a direction I'd rather not consider.

I too have issues but playing the pity card is more your style than mine.

If you feel you've been slandered in any way.....I encourage you to seek legal recourse.....that way the bad cop will be exposed.

It's unfortunate you don't have the moral fortitude to do the right thing and reveal his identity.

Some representative of the conservative caucus you turned out to be.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 13, 2011, 04:29:43 AM
I'll not ask what type of cancer....it seems your choice of words already lead me into a direction I'd rather not consider.

I too have issues but playing the pity card is more your style than mine.

If you feel you've been slandered in any way.....I encourage you to seek legal recourse.....that way the bad cop will be exposed.

It's unfortunate you don't have the moral fortitude to do the right thing and reveal his identity.

Some representative of the conservative caucus you turned out to be.

Garbage FF:

It isn't a matter of losing weight due to Cancer. I threw in the pity card
only because you threw in the "scum" card. How else do you respond to
being a p*g.?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on March 13, 2011, 04:58:28 AM
Garbage FF:

It isn't a matter of losing weight due to Cancer. I threw in the pity card
only because you threw in the "scum" card. How else do you respond to being  a p*g.
Such nasty talk from someone that pretends to have the interest of the public at heart....while at the same time knowingly withholding the identity of a criminal Deputy.

That makes you complicit Kopke.

You aren't representing the conservative caucus of Monroe County very well......encouraging corruption.

I wonder if the teabaggers approve of your nefarious dealings....

Chances are the CCMC and teabaggers are probably one in the same....but I wonder if they know?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Collegekid on March 13, 2011, 05:26:57 AM
Credibility? I don't need no stinkin' credibility! Pretty sure most here know where CK works. I f you don't, it ain't my fault.

Nope, many knew where I used to work. Haven't worked there in nearly 8 months though. Plus that was just a part time job, not where I drew my primary income from, not that it matters.

I have decided to make it my life's work to follow every post of CK.Luckily, I'm retired, and this quest should be no hardship. CK, if i miss anything, I hope you will keep me up-to-date, and I will make sure John misses nothing.

Sorry, I don't get on here much anymore.  You may need a second hobby.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on March 13, 2011, 12:16:13 PM
Ya know, I just read (well, skimmed over) the last few pages of this thread, and I have to say that all of you are acting like spoiled kids. 

ALL of you (you know who you are) are doing nothing but throwing cheap shots at each other, and the topic is lost.  A little jab here or there amongst the discussion is one thing, but you guys are WAY off topic, and only b****ing back and forth at each other.  Writing paragraph after paragraph of insults, and "Your sh*t stinks more than mine does" is pointless.

Quite honestly, it's sickening.

There - I've said my piece.  Go ahead and report me to the admin for TOS violations, I really don't care.

You may resume.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 13, 2011, 02:16:17 PM
Duck:
Line my pocket? Well Duck I don't imagine if they reduce public employee wages, benefits pensions etc. they'll be sending me a check.
What it may mean is we'll be able to pave and maintain streets and hire back Sheriff Deputies the county was forced to lay off. Taxes
go higher and services decrease. Where is the money going?

UAW and GM for example negotiated contracts decades ago that ultimately lead to the bankruptsy of GM. UAW saw membership dwindle from 1.5 million to under 400K. The "remaining" 400K still enjoy good pay, great benefits and wonderful pensions. What about the 1.1 million who no longer have a job? They are collateral damage resulting from unions, and management, kicking the can down the road. That is reality.   


Whooo hooo, John finally mentioned JOBS.  After a two year tirade of jobs, jobs, jobs then the R’s take the house and a lot of state governors and presto, jobs disappears and is replaced by cut the budget.  However, that, it turns out, is a misnomer, since it is tax shift from the poor and needy to the rich, and NOT about balancing the budgets.

You want to hurt teachers in particular.  Why, I can’t guess, but the fact is evident in a great many of your posts.  So, if instead of a tax cut for yourself you want it to go to something else you want, so?

Again you want to do the Fox news propaganda LIES.  You really should apply for a job with them, you would fit right in. 

We have laws, John.  I know, pesky little things to you, but something that we have always needed and respected.  Now, you and your Republican tea radicals want to willy-nilly eliminate or just wish away law.  Not all law, because the tea radical way is to use laws to their advantage and break the law, or ignore other law at their choosing.

So, how about we enter into negotiations at your company?  We can agree to nice terms for the both of us.  Then when I get the product, or the service you provide is over I will not pay you because the negotiations were unfair.  That is EXACTLY what you keep saying over and over as if telling it enough will make LAW go away.

Your representatives entered into those contract negotiations and believed that they got the better deal by having lower wages (instead of an inflationary increase that was sought) and could set up future accounts with smaller fees that would accrue interest or dividends.

Now, you want to LIE to the public that you and the negotiators KNEW THEN that they could not provide the fee that they negotiated in the future.  BULL.  If you have proof, provide it to the courts.

Again, you did not answer the questions.  Diversion is all ya got.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on March 13, 2011, 02:38:12 PM
Ya know, I just read (well, skimmed over) the last few pages of this thread, and I have to say that all of you are acting like spoiled kids. 

ALL of you (you know who you are) are doing nothing but throwing cheap shots at each other, and the topic is lost.  A little jab here or there amongst the discussion is one thing, but you guys are WAY off topic, and only b****ing back and forth at each other.  Writing paragraph after paragraph of insults, and "Your sh*t stinks more than mine does" is pointless.

Quite honestly, it's sickening.

There - I've said my piece.  Go ahead and report me to the admin for TOS violations, I really don't care.

You may resume.

LOL, I can't even follow the intent of the thread anymore.  Kind of gave up on it a while back.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Professor H on March 13, 2011, 08:24:11 PM
Ya know, I just read (well, skimmed over) the last few pages of this thread, and I have to say that all of you are acting like spoiled kids. 

ALL of you (you know who you are) are doing nothing but throwing cheap shots at each other, and the topic is lost.  A little jab here or there amongst the discussion is one thing, but you guys are WAY off topic, and only b****ing back and forth at each other.  Writing paragraph after paragraph of insults, and "Your sh*t stinks more than mine does" is pointless.

Quite honestly, it's sickening.

There - I've said my piece.  Go ahead and report me to the admin for TOS violations, I really don't care.

You may resume.
X2  maybe they should follow the heading and count this thread as "done"...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on March 13, 2011, 09:00:52 PM
50% chance considering the photo only shows two people.....I reasoned you MUST be the elderly of the two but hey, I tried to put you in a good light....the old guy at least stood on his feet while the other one can't get off his (apparently your) behind.....all five pictures!

No matter how you try to justify it....looking up my identity was illegal.

My name was never on any Monroe County complaint so the Monroe County Sheriff Deputy had to snoop deep to provide that info to you......totally unjustified!

If you had any real concern over the Sheriff being able to fund active patrols or believe in the concept of law and order, you'd provide the name of that rogue deputy.
Care to provide the statute that what the cop did was illegal? You provided enough information in a public forum where anyone who was remotely close to the case would at the very least know your last name, which would give a person a pretty good chance at figuring out your first name.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 14, 2011, 06:48:58 PM
Care to provide the statute that what the cop did was illegal? You provided enough information in a public forum where anyone who was remotely close to the case would at the very least know your last name, which would give a person a pretty good chance at figuring out your first name.
Why does he have to quote law?  John said with his own words that he got it from a police person and repeated it here. 

Maybe someone could find it out from court records, I didn't, John didn't.  A police person gave it to him.  Now, maybe he can claim public knowledge, but I suspect that he didn't get it from what was public.

Beyond that there is at e last a modicum of consideration that can or should be expected here.  Most don't use their real name for a reason.  Just because you do know it doesn't mean that it is right to post it here.  I have known Fluffy for 15+ years and not once have I used his real name.  As a matter of fact, I know quite a few names and they know mine, but I can expect that they won't use mine or me theirs.  It is just what is right.  That you want to excuse someone for something that was disgusting... fine.  That doesn't change that it was wrong to post here and wrong for that officer to give to John.  I have to believe that whether it is legal or not to do a private check of someone, it is still unethical and should require, at the least, a reprimand of he officer.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: BigRedDog on March 14, 2011, 06:55:21 PM



Why does he have to quote law?  John said with his own words that he got it from a police person and repeated it here. 
I have to believe that whether it is legal or not to do a private check of someone, it is still unethical and should require, at the least, a reprimand of he officer.
I posted a news article last fall where several court employees and police officers got in trouble for just looking up the driving records of Crystal Bowersox...   I don't think any of them even passed on any of the info...    just looked it up.  I know that was in Ohio but it may even be a federal statute...   but I'm pretty sure Michigan has a similar statute.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on March 14, 2011, 07:05:24 PM
Why does he have to quote law?  John said with his own words that he got it from a police person and repeated it here. 

Maybe someone could find it out from court records, I didn't, John didn't.  A police person gave it to him.  Now, maybe he can claim public knowledge, but I suspect that he didn't get it from what was public.

Beyond that there is at e last a modicum of consideration that can or should be expected here.  Most don't use their real name for a reason.  Just because you do know it doesn't mean that it is right to post it here.  I have known Fluffy for 15+ years and not once have I used his real name.  As a matter of fact, I know quite a few names and they know mine, but I can expect that they won't use mine or me theirs.  It is just what is right.  That you want to excuse someone for something that was disgusting... fine.  That doesn't change that it was wrong to post here and wrong for that officer to give to John.  I have to believe that whether it is legal or not to do a private check of someone, it is still unethical and should require, at the least, a reprimand of he officer.
FF said it was illegal I am curious to the statute that says it is illegal.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 14, 2011, 07:10:20 PM
FF said it was illegal I am curious to the statute that says it is illegal.
So, according to you if he is not a lawyer and can't cite it EXACTLY then it isn't illegal or wrong.  Nice try!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on March 14, 2011, 07:19:29 PM
So, according to you if he is not a lawyer and can't cite it EXACTLY then it isn't illegal or wrong.  Nice try!
Never said he is, or has to be, a lawyer, but all the laws are online. If it is illegal I am curious to know which laws he is breaking. I never said it was right or wrong, but being illegal is a different thing. Nice try switching the wording up though. Why are you assuming I am saying it was right or someone to do?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 14, 2011, 07:50:34 PM

I posted a news article last fall where several court employees and police officers got in trouble for just looking up the driving records of Crystal Bowersox...   I don't think any of them even passed on any of the info...    just looked it up.  I know that was in Ohio but it may even be a federal statute...   but I'm pretty sure Michigan has a similar statute.

You can purchase all criminal justice records, driving records, etc. from some website (I don't remember the name of it off hand) 100% legally.  What happened to Fry was nothing more than a TOS violation on a small town newspaper sponsored community forum, after some folks put two and two together.  Does it sting?  Yeah.  Was it wrong?  Yeah.  Was it illegal?  No and he knows it, he would have trotted into civil court long ago if he could have.

Personally, I don't think knowing the backgrounds of anyone on a community forum is really worth $10.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on March 14, 2011, 08:02:16 PM


All those websites do are provide information that are already public records..  What fry is talking about is misuse of a position to obtain information that is not part of a public record.. I believe the accusation is, John.. Or Jay Doodle... had a Sheriff Deputy search his ISP address back to him and gained his real name and Address..

Which Jay Doodle then posted on this forum...

Am I correct so far?  It may not be against the law but I am pretty sure it would be against policy and may result in the termination of that deputy if it were ever found out..

If anyone has the name of that deputy, if Jay Doodle felt he did nothing wrong.. Tell us who it is..  but without a name, it is here say..  I am pretty sure if what fry says is true.. Sheriff Crutchfield does not know anything about it..

Make a formal complaint and let it be investigated...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 14, 2011, 08:16:27 PM
I don't think there are any laws against tracing an IP address.

Like I said... morally wrong?  Absolutley.  But of course FF basically did the same thing with me, so..... whatever.  Certain people feel the need to constantly feel attacked and have others feel sorry for them, others just don't lose any sleep over it.  Sounds like what happened is Kopke knows a guy who is really good with technology and had him do some freelance work, if it wouldhave happened within the SO and Fry had proof... I guarantee you that Sheriff Crutchfield would know about it.

Like I said in the other post, nothing personal, but no one on a community forum is worth the hassle or risk IMO.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on March 14, 2011, 08:23:00 PM

All those websites do are provide information that are already public records..  What fry is talking about is misuse of a position to obtain information that is not part of a public record.. I believe the accusation is, John.. Or Jay Doodle... had a Sheriff Deputy search his ISP address back to him and gained his real name and Address..

Which Jay Doodle then posted on this forum...

Am I correct so far?  It may not be against the law but I am pretty sure it would be against policy and may result in the termination of that deputy if it were ever found out..

If anyone has the name of that deputy, if Jay Doodle felt he did nothing wrong.. Tell us who it is..  but without a name, it is here say..  I am pretty sure if what fry says is true.. Sheriff Crutchfield does not know anything about it..

Make a formal complaint and let it be investigated...

One it is an IP address. Two it is not that easy to figure it out as you assume, http://ask-leo.com/can_i_get_someones_name_and_address_from_their_ip_address.html (http://ask-leo.com/can_i_get_someones_name_and_address_from_their_ip_address.html)

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Collegekid on March 14, 2011, 08:30:39 PM
One it is an IP address. Two it is not that easy to figure it out as you assume, [url]http://ask-leo.com/can_i_get_someones_name_and_address_from_their_ip_address.html[/url] ([url]http://ask-leo.com/can_i_get_someones_name_and_address_from_their_ip_address.html[/url])



All it takes is a phone call, and an incompetent employee on the other end. Pretty simple if you ask me.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on March 14, 2011, 08:33:56 PM
All it takes is a phone call, and an incompetent employee on the other end. Pretty simple if you ask me.
I actually think it does take a lot more than that. I have no idea how it works there, but it seems like that information would be restricted to people who are not the ones manning the phones. Every where I have read shows you need a warrant to get the information from them, so I think it takes a little more than me calling comcast and reading off the 4 numbers and then an incompetent employee reading off the name of the person involved.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 14, 2011, 10:46:03 PM
I don't think there are any laws against tracing an IP address.

Like I said... morally wrong?  Absolutley.  But of course FF basically did the same thing with me, so..... whatever.  Certain people feel the need to constantly feel attacked and have others feel sorry for them, others just don't lose any sleep over it.  Sounds like what happened is Kopke knows a guy who is really good with technology and had him do some freelance work, if it wouldhave happened within the SO and Fry had proof... I guarantee you that Sheriff Crutchfield would know about it.

Like I said in the other post, nothing personal, but no one on a community forum is worth the hassle or risk IMO.

All that John said was that it was a police officer that supplied him with FF's real name and that he posted it here.  If I remember that far back I believe he posted as Jay Doodle, but I may be misremembering (Holy sand powder, that is in the spell checker!).  If Fry went to court with that or even to Crutchfield they would say "which officer" and bingo, it is dead in the water.  So, obviously he doesn't have proof.  He has the say so of the person that posted his name and who he says he got it from.

I do not agree that he is "feel attacked and have others feel sorry for them"  He wishes his private life kept private, maybe he is overly paranoid, but not without cause.  Most people here might be pretty much mouthy but not a threat, but there are some here that even I don't want knowing who I am because they are just too scary for comfort.  Call me paranoid if you want, you probably will anyway, but it is true.

Let's face it, threats of actual violence at MT are not uncommon.

But, I get the feeling that knowing it was a police officer that supplied Kopke with the information that he posted is far more upsetting than the actual posting of his name here.  Although that has troubled him greatly, or so it seems.  As letsgowings says, I don't know if it is legal or illegal to acquire information about someone and reveal that to someone (perhaps even knowing that it would be posted?) I do believe that it is very wrong and the violator should get at the least a slap on the wrist to stop others from doing it.  That is if it isn't illegal.

Did FF get information about you from a police officer and post it here? If he did then he was very wrong as well.  FF does some pretty dirty things but I don't remember that one. 

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 14, 2011, 11:26:51 PM
No he just compiled enough info from posts here and on MU to lay the track to the conclusion without actually posting the name.  He violated the spirit of the TOS without violating the TOS, and he knows it, but since it was just barely a foul ball he feels no responsibility should follow.

But again, sorry to say it, no one here is worth the hassle or risk.  Those I know I either knew before, or made a point to get to know.  I decide they were worth the effort, but I didn't go snooping around after them, I sent a PM and said "Hey I'm XXXXXXX, What's Up!" and I've made some friends and steered clear of those who I don't ever wish to be social with, and that is how it should work.  Those who would dig for info on anyone in an online forum should really have their heads checked.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 15, 2011, 12:06:46 AM
No he just compiled enough info from posts here and on MU to lay the track to the conclusion without actually posting the name.  He violated the spirit of the TOS without violating the TOS, and he knows it, but since it was just barely a foul ball he feels no responsibility should follow.

But again, sorry to say it, no one here is worth the hassle or risk.  Those I know I either knew before, or made a point to get to know.  I decide they were worth the effort, but I didn't go snooping around after them, I sent a PM and said "Hey I'm XXXXXXX, What's Up!" and I've made some friends and steered clear of those who I don't ever wish to be social with, and that is how it should work.  Those who would dig for info on anyone in an online forum should really have their heads checked.
I agree it is a waste of time and yes it was wrong.  I guess i put a different level to it being a police officer giving the info though.  Posting it here is identical, but the source is troubling.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: old salt on March 15, 2011, 05:25:47 AM

Let's face it, threats of actual violence at MT are not uncommon.


Double negative.  Bad grammar.

Grammar and spelling corrections are very common on MT.  Threats of violence are common?  I hardly ever read that here on MT.  The admin does a very good job regarding threats.

If you want to see threats, go to a protest where there are union thugs or a voting place where there are black panthers. (links available upon request)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 15, 2011, 09:37:36 AM
Double negative.  Bad grammar.

Grammar and spelling corrections are very common on MT.  Threats of violence are common?  I hardly ever read that here on MT.  The admin does a very good job regarding threats.

If you want to see threats, go to a protest where there are union thugs or a voting place where there are black panthers. (links available upon request)

I was under the presumption that Panthers were brown. ;D
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on March 16, 2011, 01:58:53 PM
No he just compiled enough info from posts here and on MU to lay the track to the conclusion without actually posting the name.  He violated the spirit of the TOS without violating the TOS, and he knows it, but since it was just barely a foul ball he feels no responsibility should follow.
Like I said... morally wrong?  Absolutley.  But of course FF basically did the same thing with me, so..... whatever. 
I'm not into MU...not even a member so I've not compiled anything from MU.

Which means as usual....you're wrong.

I'm beginning to wonder if someone has been impersonating me on MU.

And what info did I spill about you?

Maybe I hit a nerve for the JBS part....John Birch Society.  ;)
http://www.jbs.org/ (http://www.jbs.org/)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 17, 2011, 09:03:43 PM
GAO came out with hundreds of duplicative programs costing billions.
Yet now that the report is in, I've yet to read anything about anything
being done to combine, or eliminate,  any of them. Anybody else seen anything?   
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 17, 2011, 09:23:27 PM
Nope. you were expecting what!?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on March 17, 2011, 09:26:26 PM
GAO came out with hundreds of duplicative programs costing billions.
Yet now that the report is in, I've yet to read anything about anything
being done to combine, or eliminate,  any of them. Anybody else seen anything?

Not that I have seen either, John.

Sad deal if there are no efforts going on in the background to remedy this.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 17, 2011, 09:40:42 PM
Nope. you were expecting what!?

Based on history, I guess I'm being a little naive. Maybe as an absolute act of futility we should all write John Dingell and ask him to follow up.
Sorry if anyone was sipping a Coke when they read this as I know it burns when you blow it through your nose. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 17, 2011, 09:47:51 PM
WHAT!?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 17, 2011, 09:53:48 PM
WHAT!?

Can't you see how ridiculous it would be to expect Dingell to cut  wastefull/duplicate government programs. Spending and creating more programs is what he's does. Man has historically been one of the biggest spenders in the history of the congress.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on March 18, 2011, 02:07:20 AM
Double negative.  Bad grammar.

Grammar and spelling corrections are very common on MT.  Threats of violence are common?  I hardly ever read that here on MT.  The admin does a very good job regarding threats.

If you want to see threats, go to a protest where there are union thugs or a voting place where there are black panthers. (links available upon request)

Old Salt are you still going on about the Black Panthers?  Didn't you read the memo,..  There was a handful of yes black men, who said they were Black Panthers that yelled at some voters in 2008.. The edited videos that loop the same four guys over and over have been proven to be all there is to it..  If you want to be upset about it.. be upset at George W. Bush because it was his State Department that decided not to prosecute.. 

For the 99th time Emily, will you please stop with the Propaganda.. Its old and tiresome... At least find some new fake news...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on March 19, 2011, 03:20:53 AM
New Tax Rates For The Rich Possible (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyvU7iIU3M8#)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 22, 2011, 07:46:06 PM
Republican Congressman Paul Ryan will come out with his 2012 budget.
I am led to believe he will tackle entitlements as part of his deficit reduction plan. I believe our country is at a fiscal tipping point. The
American people's response to Con. Ryan's plan could very well determine whether, or not, we will have a chance to get our finances under control, or we go over the cliff. I further expect the majority of Pelosi Dems will demogogue his plan. The old "starve the childen" routine. Historically "good politics". The question is do the people understand how truly dire our fiscal situation is, or will they blissfully listen to people lying to them, but telling them what they "want" to hear?   
 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 22, 2011, 09:03:26 PM
Republican Congressman Paul Ryan will come out with his 2012 budget.
I am led to believe he will tackle entitlements as part of his deficit reduction plan. I believe our country is at a fiscal tipping point. The
American people's response to Con. Ryan's plan could very well determine whether, or not, we will have a chance to get our finances under control, or we go over the cliff. I further expect the majority of Pelosi Dems will demogogue his plan. The old "starve the childen" routine. Historically "good politics". The question is do the people understand how truly dire our fiscal situation is, or will they blissfully listen to people lying to them, but telling them what they "want" to hear?   
 
Doesn't the President present the budget, and then Congress says"Bite me, fight me", or some such? Why does ONE congressman have a budget proposal?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 23, 2011, 02:37:19 AM
I'm not into MU...not even a member so I've not compiled anything from MU.

Which means as usual....you're wrong.

I'm beginning to wonder if someone has been impersonating me on MU.

And what info did I spill about you?

Maybe I hit a nerve for the JBS part....John Birch Society.  ;)
[url]http://www.jbs.org/[/url] ([url]http://www.jbs.org/[/url])


But you WERE a member, even before I was.  I distinctly remember you begging me to go over there one night because you kould cuss and really lay it on thick.  You dared me to go over there and "debate" you.  I registered..... you were a no show.

As usual way to slide in half the truth in an effort to cover yourself, you did about as good a job as generic Lysol does after... well you know.  Actually the generic Lysol does better.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: BigRedDog on March 23, 2011, 08:05:10 AM
Doesn't the President present the budget, and then Congress says"Bite me, fight me", or some such? Why does ONE congressman have a budget proposal?

Maybe John had a different Government class than we did sammy 8* 8* 8*
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: old salt on March 23, 2011, 08:46:29 AM
For everyone's clarification, regardless of which government class you took.

Congressional consideration of the federal budget begins once the President of the United States submits a budget request.

.....requires the President to submit a budget no earlier than the first Monday in January, and no later than the first Monday in February. Typically, Presidents submit budgets on the first Monday in February.

The next step is the drafting of a budget resolution. The United States House Committee on the Budget and the United States Senate Committee on the Budget are responsible for drafting budget resolutions. Following the traditional calendar, by early April both committees finalize their drafts and submit it to their respective floors for consideration and adoption.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_budget_process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_budget_process)

The Committee is chaired by Wisconsin Republican Paul Ryan and the Ranking Democrat is Chris Van Hollen of Maryland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Committee_on_the_Budget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Committee_on_the_Budget)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 23, 2011, 06:04:24 PM
I cut and pasted these paragraphs from an American Spectator article
entitled: America's Accelerating Downward Spriral:

"The Fed's policy today is known as QE2, meaning the second round of "quantitative easing" (printing money) under the Obama Administration. That basically involves using the printed money to buy 70% of the Federal bonds issued to finance the deficit, a classic prescription for inflation. This Fed policy, continued from QE1, is the only reason that interest rates have remained so low in the face of the unprecedented trillions in federal deficits.

QE2 is scheduled to continue through June, at which time most commentators expect the Fed to end this reckless policy. But if the Fed suddenly stops this "quantitative easing," who is going to step in to buy the bonds to finance the 70% of the remaining federal deficit of $1.645 trillion for this fiscal year, and the $1.4 trillion deficit the CBO projects for the next fiscal year? Finding real buyers for those bonds is going to require paying soaring interest rates on them, which will only further increase the deficit. And that will cause soaring interest rates across the credit markets as well."

And it isn't just finding lenders willing to finance this year's, and next year's deficits, we have billions more in U.S. Treasuries coming due every year that need to be rolled over. Folks you better get on your
Congressman and Senator and tell them they better get real serious
about cutting spending NOW, or things could soon start spinning out of control.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on March 24, 2011, 12:00:37 AM
I distinctly remember you begging me to go over there one night because you kould cuss and really lay it on thick.  You dared me to go over there and "debate" you.  I registered..... you were a no show.

As usual way to slide in half the truth in an effort to cover yourself, you did about as good a job as generic Lysol does after... well you know.  Actually the generic Lysol does better.
Not true. Now let's go back to your earlier lie(s):
No he just compiled enough info from posts here and on MU to lay the track to the conclusion without actually posting the name.  He violated the spirit of the TOS without violating the TOS, and he knows it, but since it was just barely a foul ball he feels no responsibility should follow.

I don't think there are any laws against tracing an IP address.

Like I said... morally wrong?  Absolutley.  But of course FF basically did the same thing with me, so..... whatever.
Enough obfuscating! You made an allegation so address it.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 24, 2011, 06:47:35 PM
Read the article in the MEN about Congressman Dingell's address to the Chamber of Commerce. Sunshine, Lollipops and Rainbows. Not a single mention of the National debt, or the humongous deficits we're running.
Clearly we could not have elected a representative more out of touch,
or worthless, when it comes to addressing the most dire fiscal crisis in the history of the country.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 24, 2011, 07:19:06 PM
Your remedies? You running next time? Doom and gloom only gets you so far. Woe is me, woe is me! Now what?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on March 24, 2011, 08:10:06 PM
Sammy, the answer is quite simple.  STOP spending so much money.

How many aides does Congressman Dingell have?  Quite a few, last time I looked.

I have seen him in public, at stores, and he always has a pretty young female aide following him around like a puppy.  He has aides to do all his work for him - I have seen it.  And he's not alone -  nor is it limited to just Democrats.  There is a LOT of useless waste that can be eliminated, for starters.

But no one is willing to do it.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: BigRedDog on March 24, 2011, 08:21:20 PM
Sammy, the answer is quite simple.  STOP spending so much money.

How many aides does Congressman Dingell have?  Quite a few, last time I looked.

I have seen him in public, at stores, and he always has a pretty young female aide following him around like a puppy.  He has aides to do all his work for him - I have seen it.  And he's not alone -  nor is it limited to just Democrats.  There is a LOT of useless waste that can be eliminated, for starters.

But no one is willing to do it.

Are you sure that's not his wife???   she's a lot younger than he is ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on March 24, 2011, 08:25:37 PM
Are you sure that's not his wife???   she's a lot younger than he is ;) ;) ;)

LMAO!

No, it wasn't his wife.  This girl looked like she was about 20 years old.

His wife IS younger than he is, but I think EVERYBODY is younger than John Dingell!!   ;D
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: BigRedDog on March 24, 2011, 08:38:51 PM
LMAO!

No, it wasn't his wife.  This girl looked like she was about 20 years old.

His wife IS younger than he is, but I think EVERYBODY is younger than John Dingell!!   ;D

I'm sure there are exceptions, but it does seem that way :) :) :)

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 24, 2011, 09:05:35 PM
Getting back to answering Sammy and my gloom and doom. Let me explain U.S. treasuries as I understand them.

Let's say you have $ 10,000 in 10 year U.S. Treasuries paying roughly 2% or
$ 200 per year. Then let's say with the end of QE2 in June, nobody will buy US Treasuries unless they get 4% interest. As I understand it, these U.S. bonds work like a see saw. As the interest rate goes up the value of a bond goes down. So if the interest rate doubles from 2% to 4% the value of the bond is cut in half. Bond value goes from $ 10,000 to $ 5000. Yet you'll still get $ 200 per year in interest (4% of $ 5000), but you've lost half you're initial investment. If the interest rate remained at 4% for the 10 years your interest earnings would total $ 2000 less dividends tax of 15%. When you bond expires you can redeem it for $ 5000. You end up with something less than
$ 7,000 for your $ 10K investment.

Now I make no claim to being an expert on US Treasury Bonds. And if
my take is in error, I welcome hearing from anyone with a better understanding.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SimpleMan on March 24, 2011, 09:35:57 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if someone has been impersonating me on MU.


Could happen, I know somebody did that to me over there. I have a pretty fair idea of who, but it's been awhile and I don't care what they think of me or anything for that matter. Not worth worrying about.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 24, 2011, 09:51:51 PM
And while the country burns the majority of people distract themselves with entertainment and the innane. When the water comes over the gunwhales these folks will be frantically looking for lifeboats. But they'll
all be gone.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 24, 2011, 09:57:47 PM
And while the country burns the majority of people distract themselves with entertainment and the innane. When the water comes over the gunwhales these folks will be frantically looking for lifeboats. But they'll
all be gone.
Your answer to the problem is what? You are all over disaster, but have no answers that I've seen.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 24, 2011, 10:17:10 PM
Your answer to the problem is what? You are all over disaster, but have no answers that I've seen.

Well Sammy either you just tuned into the topic, or you're just being obstreperous. The answer is real basic. For once tell the American people the "truth", and make clear, how absolutely dire the fiscal situation our country is facing. Then explain what will happen if we don't dramatically cut spending. Then explain what it is going to take to turn things around and that every American will have to sacrifice, and it will be far from painless.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 24, 2011, 10:20:44 PM
Love your use of the big word! I say again, what is YOUR answer to the problem?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 24, 2011, 10:31:32 PM
Love your use of the big word! I say again, what is YOUR answer to the problem?

Sorry Sammy, appears you're not looking for an answer, you're looking for a pissing contest. If not, read through the topic, there are plenty of specific ideas mentioned to cut spending.

The ultimate question boils down to this. It isn't a matter of can we cut spending enough to turn things around, it is a matter of whether the American people still have the character it will take to do what we must.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 24, 2011, 10:38:20 PM
Sorry Sammy, appears you're not looking for an answer, you're looking for a pissing contest. If not, read through the topic, there are plenty of specific ideas mentioned to cut spending.

The ultimate question boils down to this. It isn't a matter of can we cut spending enough to turn things around, it is a matter of whether the American people still have the character it will take to do what we must.
Raise taxes, maybe?? You ain't going to cut spending enough to make a real difference. Up to you; cut what, how much, raise taxes, how much? Step up!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 24, 2011, 10:57:43 PM
Raise taxes, maybe?? You ain't going to cut spending enough to make a real difference. Up to you; cut what, how much, raise taxes, how much? Step up!

Sammy why can't we cut spending enough? Do we need the Department of Education, Department of Energy, Department of Comerce, HUD, Ethanol subsidies, Corporate welfare (like $ 7500 Volt subsidies) and hundreds of redundant agencies, or a Medicare System that allows 60 to a 100 billion a year in fraud, bicycle paths, NPR subsidies, raise some tax increases, as long as they are used only reduce the debt, not be spent on new programs. Then lets sell some Federal land, start drilling for oil, drop minimum wage, end prevailing wage on Federal construction, reduce Federal employees by 40% and I ain't even got good started yet. And tell people like you to drop the snark and pitch in and do something useful to save the country.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Mike Ingels on March 24, 2011, 11:34:35 PM
I think that I might be with you on abolishing the Department of Education.  And let's abolish state boards of education.  Return schools to local control.

I see that as the big weakness of both Rick Snyder and Washington Republicans.  They love to eviscerate local control.  Big government Republicans.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 25, 2011, 04:37:20 AM
Your answer to the problem is what? You are all over disaster, but have no answers that I've seen.
Sell all your stocks and buy gold and silver!!!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 25, 2011, 10:28:43 AM
Sell all your stocks and buy gold and silver!!!

Well Fluffy if interest rates start rising it could mean the stock market and the US Treasuries will take a hit. Right now people with money to invest are desperate to find something/anything that will provide them with some kind of a reasonable return. Because they can't make squat for a return on CD's for example (after inflation and dividend taxes
they actually lose money) they go into stocks or US Treasuries and
create a bubble in those areas. Also, if the government has to raise interest rates substantially to lure Treasury buyers then the amount of
interest on our debt goes up dramatically and adds even more to our deficit problems. It is a vicious circle and one big klusterfluc.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 25, 2011, 01:17:49 PM
Sell all your stocks and buy gold and silver!!!

Especially the silver coins that support the crash of our economy that have nowhere near the silver in them as the stated face value... its a great investment.  Oh I'm sorry its not an investment at all.. it's money.  LOL!! 

Gotta love a group that rants and raves about the US hyperinflating its currency and then doing it, not once but twice, before the US ever considers it.  The US dollar may be weakening, but the US has never remonitzed its currency twice in less than 10 years.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 25, 2011, 06:45:08 PM
JBS:

Per your post: "Gotta love a group that rants and raves about the US hyperinflating its currency and then doing it, not once but twice, before the US ever considers it.  The US dollar may be weakening, but the US has never remonitzed its currency twice in less than 10 years."
-----------

Well JBS I am not part of any "group" involved in hyperinflating or remonitizing Liberty dollars, if I assume correctly that is what you are referring. And that tiny group was dealing with maybe 10 million dollars of silver. How much damage do you think Liberty incurred on a 15 trillion dollar economy, as compared to the damage a  single year of 2% inflation does to it?

Further, if the U.S Government, or more correctly the FED, were to
"remonitize" today's FRN dollar bill on a historical basis they would be
renamed the 4 cent bill.

 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on March 25, 2011, 08:49:27 PM
Sammy why can't we cut spending enough? Do we need the Department of Education, Department of Energy, Department of Comerce, HUD, Ethanol subsidies, Corporate welfare (like $ 7500 Volt subsidies) and hundreds of redundant agencies, or a Medicare System that allows 60 to a 100 billion a year in fraud, bicycle paths, NPR subsidies, raise some tax increases, as long as they are used only reduce the debt, not be spent on new programs. Then lets sell some Federal land, start drilling for oil, drop minimum wage, end prevailing wage on Federal construction, reduce Federal employees by 40% and I ain't even got good started yet. And tell people like you to drop the snark and pitch in and do something useful to save the country.

Let's get rid of the minimum wage, close all federal departments (except the DoD, natch, we have wars to profit from), gut medicare, give Social Security to trust fund managers, sell the highway system to Walmart, and lower taxes some more, especially for the filthy rich. THAT'LL fix EVERYTHING! Reagan was right all along, about everything! Even astrology!

Who do I vote for to make this a reality?!?!?! Zombie St. Reagan?


Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 25, 2011, 09:01:46 PM
But wait, wait; wouldn't that cut JOBS?!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on March 25, 2011, 09:04:18 PM
But wait, wait; wouldn't that cut JOBS?!

Government workers don't count, you see; they aren't"employees", and instead should be regarded as "economy-sucking leeches". didn't you get the memo?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 25, 2011, 09:16:24 PM
You guys don't have, or even want answers. You just sit around on your oblivious virtual reality butts, offer nothing approaching real solutions, take potshots, and then go back into the lounge of the Titanic and congratulate each other on how clever you think you were. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on March 25, 2011, 09:27:51 PM
You guys don't have, or even want answers. You just sit around on your oblivious virtual reality butts, offer nothing approaching real solutions, take potshots, and then go back into the lounge of the Titanic and congratulate each other on how clever you think you were. 

you betcha, John 'I have all the answers but God help me if I have to actually articulate them to the unwashed illiterate masses of the internet" Kopke.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 25, 2011, 09:33:15 PM
you betcha, John 'I have all the answers but God help me if I have to actually articulate them to the unwashed illiterate masses of the internet" Kopke.

Apparently.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on March 25, 2011, 09:59:21 PM
Obviously.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 25, 2011, 11:29:20 PM
We all instinctively know the our country is in the midst of a severe debt crisis, but I still get the feeling too many folks believe somehow the folks in Washington understand, and will fix the problem. Just a phase we're going through. But the thing is the reason we are in the dire fiscal situation we find ourselves in is because of the Government. And yet today the folks are essentially pleading with the arsonist to help put out the fire.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on March 26, 2011, 01:30:43 AM
So the solution is to let to the people wielding axes and who have a deep-seated hatred of government, run that government into the ground?

That's what I never got. "elect me! i hate government, and wish it would all just go away! So elect me, because i hate myself!"

Small government types like yourself are always very small-government, anti-bureaucracy.... until you get sucked into it yourself. Happened to your tea party heroes. And it'll happen to you.

But keep hugging your Reagan Teddy at night, those mean little liberal bureaucrats will be dead soon enough.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 26, 2011, 02:26:31 AM
So the solution is to let to the people wielding axes and who have a deep-seated hatred of government, run that government into the ground?

Lordfly. lere is a whole lot of things yov've never gotten. Like you can't spend more money than you have or you'll go broke.

That's what I never got. "elect me! i hate government, and wish it would all just go away! So elect me, because i hate myself!"

Small government types like yourself are always very small-government, anti-bureaucracy.... until you get sucked into it yourself. Happened to your tea party heroes. And it'll happen to you.

But keep hugging your Reagan Teddy at night, those mean little liberal bureaucrats will be dead soon enough.

So the solution is to let to the people wielding axes and who have a deep-seated hatred of government, run that government into the ground?

That's what I never got. "elect me! i hate government, and wish it would all just go away! So elect me, because i hate myself!"

Small government types like yourself are always very small-government, anti-bureaucracy.... until you get sucked into it yourself. Happened to your tea party heroes. And it'll happen to you.

But keep hugging your Reagan Teddy at night, those mean little liberal bureaucrats will be dead soon enough.

Lord:

You love big government, but there are a whole lot of things you don't consider given your head is buried in the sand. First, you can't spend money you don't have. Now you don't have a problem that today's gov't either borrows, or prints, 40% of our budget to provide goodies to your greedy self, while at the same time they're handing the tab off to your kids and grandkids. Buy hey. Screw them, you got yoours.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 26, 2011, 09:42:32 AM
Lord:

You love big government, but there are a whole lot of things you don't consider given your head is buried in the sand. First, you can't spend money you don't have. Now you don't have a problem that today's gov't either borrows, or prints, 40% of our budget to provide goodies to your greedy self, while at the same time they're handing the tab off to your kids and grandkids. Buy hey. Screw them, you got yoours.

If we had the tax rates even 1/2 of what they were in the 50's and early 60's, the government would pay off it's debt in a few years.

But greedy people want their children and Grandchildren to take care of that.

Hell, we can't even get them to agree to the pre Bush rates. So who is it who wants theirs John?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on March 26, 2011, 09:46:18 AM
Sammy why can't we cut spending enough? Do we need the Department of Education, Department of Energy, Department of Comerce, HUD, Ethanol subsidies, Corporate welfare (like $ 7500 Volt subsidies) and hundreds of redundant agencies, or a Medicare System that allows 60 to a 100 billion a year in fraud, bicycle paths, NPR subsidies, raise some tax increases, as long as they are used only reduce the debt, not be spent on new programs. Then lets sell some Federal land, start drilling for oil, drop minimum wage, end prevailing wage on Federal construction, reduce Federal employees by 40% and I ain't even got good started yet. And tell people like you to drop the snark and pitch in and do something useful to save the country.

Good post, John.....I agree with everything bolded.  Not sure I would go as far as cutting bicycle paths, or drop minimum wage....but I catch your drift.  Reducing the number of Federal employees would be a direct result of dropping the redundant, and unnecessary agencies.  I still say it is worth throwing some manpower to attack the billions going out the window in fraud in our current entitlement programs.  Not sure I support getting rid of them in their entirety, but clean the fraud out of the system I do.   
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on March 26, 2011, 11:57:33 AM
Fuzz for President!   8)


Seriously, it's going to take some honest, common-sense thinking like this to get us out of the hole we're in.

With BO spending money we don't have, at rates MUCH faster than Bush ever dreamed, we need some common sense in Washington - NOW.  Raise taxes, ALONG with slashing spending, across the board.  That's the only way we'll survive.  And that's not going to happen.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on March 26, 2011, 12:32:49 PM
Lord:

You love big government, but there are a whole lot of things you don't consider given your head is buried in the sand. First, you can't spend money you don't have. Now you don't have a problem that today's gov't either borrows, or prints, 40% of our budget to provide goodies to your greedy self, while at the same time they're handing the tab off to your kids and grandkids. Buy hey. Screw them, you got yoours.

Funny, that paragraph could equally be said about your generation - "don't worry, we'll let the grandkids figure it out - gimme my Medicare!"

My generation didn't drive us into the ground, you guys did. Fess up and fix it before you kick the bucket. The Boomers should have gotten the country out of this mess; it's the least they could do while they wrecked our demographics.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on March 26, 2011, 12:37:13 PM
Its every day practical common f'in sense.  These are our elected representatives avoiding meaningful negotiation between parties to come up with a solution.  Fire 'em, Fire 'em all.  I'd love to bring in a strong third party group (maybe call them the Common F'ing Sense Party), but that may only make things worse as far as gridlock and inability to come up with a negotiated solution that makes the most sense (and yes, I know, interpretive)

Brother!

BTW, Cowboy.....first Executive Order would be legalization of herb use, and a HOT DOG AND PRETZEL cart for Monroe, MI thus over riding Council to allow common sense be exercised in my home town.   ;D
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on March 26, 2011, 02:37:25 PM


I get tired of the rhetoric, and misinformation.. One example.. John States the the Chevy Volt is subsidized...  NO ITS NOT!...

It is a TAX WRITE OFF and it isn't just for the Volt...

He makes it sound as if GM is getting 7500 dollars from the Government for each Volt they make..

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO... a Million times no... If you buy a Volt, or several other electric cars you could qualify for a tax write off...

Is it because it is a GM product?  Is it because its a Green Product?  Why is it that we turn words around...

Somehow I think if it were a tax write off if you buy a Ford 250 he would not be so focused on it....

So why continue to spread misinformation... I could point out the many times we have had our resident pants on fire poster gets it wrong... but alas..  I have a life, and it would take too much time...

Could it be the reason is to keep people stirred up?  Reckon so... because I could write a thesis on misinformation in this thread alone... but I won't...

It's a waste of time...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Mike Ingels on March 26, 2011, 04:50:02 PM
Maybe GE should start paying taxes again.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on March 26, 2011, 10:27:38 PM
Maybe GE should start paying taxes again.

That's Socialist talk.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 26, 2011, 11:11:19 PM

I get tired of the rhetoric, and misinformation.. One example.. John States the the Chevy Volt is subsidized...  NO ITS NOT!...

It is a TAX WRITE OFF and it isn't just for the Volt...

He makes it sound as if GM is getting 7500 dollars from the Government for each Volt they make..

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO... a Million times no... If you buy a Volt, or several other electric cars you could qualify for a tax write off...

Is it because it is a GM product?  Is it because its a Green Product?  Why is it that we turn words around...

Somehow I think if it were a tax write off if you buy a Ford 250 he would not be so focused on it....

So why continue to spread misinformation... I could point out the many times we have had our resident pants on fire poster gets it wrong... but alas..  I have a life, and it would take too much time...

Could it be the reason is to keep people stirred up?  Reckon so... because I could write a thesis on misinformation in this thread alone... but I won't...

It's a waste of time...

Chicken:
It is a tax credit, not a tax deduction.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 26, 2011, 11:17:27 PM
Funny, that paragraph could equally be said about your generation - "don't worry, we'll let the grandkids figure it out - gimme my Medicare!"

Lord:
While it was my generation that gave us Medicare, it wasn't my side of the aisle that gave it to us. Your time would be better spent asking Con. Dingell, who voted for Medicare, to tell you what he plans to do now that it is bankrupting the country. Course he's busy defending
his baby Obamacare which is bankruptcy accelerator.

My generation didn't drive us into the ground, you guys did. Fess up and fix it before you kick the bucket. The Boomers should have gotten the country out of this mess; it's the least they could do while they wrecked our demographics.


Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on March 26, 2011, 11:27:51 PM
Chicken:
It is a tax credit, not a tax deduction.

I guess I gotcha!  You do know its a Tax credit and not a subsidy...  Why use the word subsidy? 

Hmmm could it be because subsidy sounds worse than what it is and your purpose is to mislead people into your way of looking at things.... 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 26, 2011, 11:50:01 PM
I guess I gotcha!  You do know its a Tax credit and not a subsidy...  Why use the word subsidy? 

Hmmm could it be because subsidy sounds worse than what it is and your purpose is to mislead people into your way of looking at things.... 

Chicken:
Well what in the name of the Lord do you think the government giving someone $ 7500 to buy a Chevy Volt is called? You better look up the definition of subsidy.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on March 27, 2011, 12:23:23 AM
Chicken:
Well what in the name of the Lord do you think the government giving someone $ 7500 to buy a Chevy Volt is called? You better look up the definition of subsidy.

Ah the same thing you call a tax credit when it goes to a large corporation of your choosing.. like Exxon..

except this goes to the consumer and its not just for the Chevy Volt... and its not a subsidy.. 

To take the full $7,500 tax credit, you must have a tax liability of at least $7,500. For a single person, the minimum gross income needed to reach the $7,500 liability level is $54,680, $66,300 for single head of household and $74,000 for people who file jointly.

So tell me, where is the subsidy? 

Words and their usage is very important...  We have enough misinformation stirring people up over nothing... 

There were more jobs added this past year.. people are getting back to work.. if you were REALLY serious about paying down the debt you would want to return to the tax rates that got us out of the last mess... 

But you won't even entertain that idea.. and we know that this no new taxes are a bunch of crap, or you would be all over your new Governors proposal... No new taxes and taxed enough means exactly that..

We had over two years of that mantra coming from you.. you had your tea parties.. and now when you actually have a REAL NEW TAX.. you are silent about it.. Why?

I play the devils advocate when it comes to the pension tax... 

By the way... how are you going to have your tea bag party and not give speeches about that tax? 

Oh.. let me guess, this April you all are not getting together.. because the real reason for the masters to set their puppets in motion was to protest the election of Barrack Obama and spread fear on what he "might do".. and in reality, none of the evil predictions of raising taxes have come true..

Well actually it is coming true... Its just not coming from Obama, or a Democrat for that matter... Its coming from YOUR guy...  exactly what you feared, you voted for.. OK.. Got it!

Nothing to tea bag about this year...  ok.. we got that too.. Hey some of you all with big vocabularies..  What is that word for when people appear to be hiding something but they are so bad at it, its so obvious... it means you can see through them..  I know the word.. it starts with an O... can anyone give a chicken a hand? 

because that is what this is... 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 27, 2011, 08:51:29 AM
There were more jobs added this past year.. people are getting back to work..
yes I am, thank you very much President Obama.
Quote
if you were REALLY serious about paying down the debt you would want to return to the tax rates that got us out of the last mess... 
Agreed. But instead the right will whine about how unfairly they are being taxed. Blah Blah blah. When it is the right who got us here in the first place.


Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Monrover on March 27, 2011, 10:30:28 AM
yes I am, thank you very much President Obama.Agreed. But instead the right will whine about how unfairly they are being taxed. Blah Blah blah. When it is the right who got us here in the first place.

WE GOT US HERE!

Not the right, not the left, but each of us. That's the fact, jack!

roger and out
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 27, 2011, 04:24:52 PM
WE GOT US HERE!

Not the right, not the left, but each of us. That's the fact, jack!

roger and out
You must have a mouse in your pocket son.

I was not for lowering taxes AND increased spending. I was not for reducing regulations on banking.

I was not for a whole slew of other things that caused this whole mess, I was against them from the start.

That's like saying a girl that gets raped and allows it to happen, it's her fault.

And Roger can get the F out of here.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 27, 2011, 04:33:53 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/US_Federal_Debt_as_Percent_of_GDP_by_President.jpg/800px-US_Federal_Debt_as_Percent_of_GDP_by_President.jpg)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on March 27, 2011, 05:51:22 PM
You must have a mouse in your pocket son.

I was not for lowering taxes AND increased spending. I was not for reducing regulations on banking.

I was not for a whole slew of other things that caused this whole mess, I was against them from the start.

That's like saying a girl that gets raped and allows it to happen, it's her fault.

And Roger can get the F out of here.
wow I think you took that post a little too far.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 27, 2011, 07:10:28 PM
wow I think you took that post a little too far.
You should know by now I care little about what you think. 8*
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on March 27, 2011, 07:47:03 PM
You should know by now I care little about what you think. 8*
Never said you did
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on March 27, 2011, 08:21:47 PM
You must have a mouse in your pocket son.

I was not for lowering taxes AND increased spending. I was not for reducing regulations on banking.

I was not for a whole slew of other things that caused this whole mess, I was against them from the start.

That's like saying a girl that gets raped and allows it to happen, it's her fault.

And Roger can get the F out of here.
You should know by now I care little about what you think. 8*
I totally agree!

I don't normally take the cheerleader role....it's just that your comments sounded exactly like something I would've said.

Too bad the pointless pita had to interject his thoughts into the matter.

And that's the product of right-wing parental indoctrination I'm sure.....the older folks parrot the lies and the offspring tries to support the hardcore conservative positions.

My guess is they could never admit that everything they've come to know as the truth has been built upon nothing but lies.

I'm not really sure what brainwashing entails......only that it's a possible explanation for those that defy simple logic.....or those that ignore facts...the dittoheads and those that support them......sounds like a storyline for a show.  ;D
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 27, 2011, 08:34:29 PM
Write, Fry, write!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on March 27, 2011, 08:49:47 PM
I totally agree!

I don't normally take the cheerleader role....it's just that your comments sounded exactly like something I would've said.

Too bad the pointless pita had to interject his thoughts into the matter.

And that's the product of right-wing parental indoctrination I'm sure.....the older folks parrot the lies and the offspring tries to support the hardcore conservative positions.

My guess is they could never admit that everything they've come to know as the truth has been built upon nothing but lies.

I'm not really sure what brainwashing entails......only that it's a possible explanation for those that defy simple logic.....or those that ignore facts...the dittoheads and those that support them......sounds like a storyline for a show.  ;D
Flaming (Insulting Other Users)
Posts clearly insulting, calling out, provoking or harassing other board members, individually or as a group, directly or indirectly, are not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to: Name-calling ("You're an idiot", "You moron") Direct insults ("Screw you") Offensive orders ("Go kill yourself") Insinuations ("Are you stupid or something?") or insults towards family ("Your mom...")
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on March 27, 2011, 08:55:47 PM
Flaming (Insulting Other Users)
Posts clearly insulting, calling out, provoking or harassing other board members, individually or as a group, directly or indirectly, are not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to: Name-calling ("You're an idiot", "You moron") Direct insults ("Screw you") Offensive orders ("Go kill yourself") Insinuations ("Are you stupid or something?") or insults towards family ("Your mom...")
I wanted to go on but the TOS restricted my free speech. And what makes you think it was about you? Were your ears ringing?
I don't give a rats behind what the admin does.....I merely told the truth....and with that being said.....we're all but done.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on March 27, 2011, 08:57:51 PM
I wanted to go on but the TOS restricted my free speech. And what makes you think it was about you? Were your ears ringing?
I don't give a rats behind what the admin does.....I merely told the truth....and with that being said.....we're all but done.
I never said it was about me, but by you saying this, I think it is fair to assume it was about me. It is still a TOS violation regardless.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 27, 2011, 09:04:02 PM
Waaah, waaah!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 27, 2011, 09:04:40 PM
Flaming (Insulting Other Users)
Posts clearly insulting, calling out, provoking or harassing other board members, individually or as a group, directly or indirectly, are not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to: Name-calling ("You're an idiot", "You moron") Direct insults ("Screw you") Offensive orders ("Go kill yourself") Insinuations ("Are you stupid or something?") or insults towards family ("Your mom...")
I do like it when you post my thoughts about you and I don't even have to type the words myself.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Collegekid on March 27, 2011, 10:02:26 PM
Flaming (Insulting Other Users)
Posts clearly insulting, calling out, provoking or harassing other board members, individually or as a group, directly or indirectly, are not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to: Name-calling ("You're an idiot", "You moron") Direct insults ("Screw you") Offensive orders ("Go kill yourself") Insinuations ("Are you stupid or something?") or insults towards family ("Your mom...")

Just for the record... This is not on topic, posts that are off topic are also violations of the TOS, so in pointing out that someone may or may not have violated the TOS and not being on topic, the user violated the TOS. I see this happen from this user a lot. Just saying.


As for the topic, I don't think we're anywhere close to being done, we're on the upswing out of this mess. Thank you Mr. President.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on March 27, 2011, 10:32:03 PM
Just for the record... This is not on topic, posts that are off topic are also violations of the TOS, so in pointing out that someone may or may not have violated the TOS and not being on topic, the user violated the TOS. I see this happen from this user a lot. Just saying.


As for the topic, I don't think we're anywhere close to being done, we're on the upswing out of this mess. Thank you Mr. President.
Touche Touche good sir.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 28, 2011, 07:14:32 PM
Lord:
While it was my generation that gave us Medicare, it wasn't my side of the aisle that gave it to us. Your time would be better spent asking Con. Dingell, who voted for Medicare, to tell you what he plans to do now that it is bankrupting the country. Course he's busy defending
his baby Obamacare which is bankruptcy accelerator.

My generation didn't drive us into the ground, you guys did. Fess up and fix it before you kick the bucket. The Boomers should have gotten the country out of this mess; it's the least they could do while they wrecked our demographics.



I think Lordfly is absolutely correct.  The common talk is kill off SS and Medicare AFTER the boomers are gone.  Keep pay up until after the boomers retire and then drive wages down so that they can live a comfy retirement and let those that are young pay for it.  Crash the economy with reckless gambling and let those that come later pay the tab.  You and the right preach personal responsibility and still want your handouts and still want them eliminated AFTER you.  I got my free education, so now lets eliminate that for the next generations.  Yep, good job.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 28, 2011, 10:05:06 PM
I think Lordfly is absolutely correct.  The common talk is kill off SS and Medicare AFTER the boomers are gone.  Keep pay up until after the boomers retire and then drive wages down so that they can live a comfy retirement and let those that are young pay for it.  Crash the economy with reckless gambling and let those that come later pay the tab.  You and the right preach personal responsibility and still want your handouts and still want them eliminated AFTER you.  I got my free education, so now lets eliminate that for the next generations.  Yep, good job.

Duck:
SS is a ponzi scheme, pure and simple. There used to be 16 workers for every SS recipient. Now there are 3 workers moving towards 2. If you don't think this is representative of a classic ponzi scheme then it makes it real difficult to discuss this with you intellectually. Indeed many or most olders folks today most likely will receive more than they paid in. Conversely, younger folks are likely to receive less, maybe a whole lot less, than they paid in. Plus they most likely will see higher SS taxes and their age of retirement increase. Also I read where in 2010 SS paid out $ 37 billion more than it took in, using general tax revenues to make up the difference, adding to the deficit. It is a major kluster you know what. Yet you snipe at me and others that say something has to change because the current system ain't getting it. Well what do you suggest?

Reckless gambling. I'm no fan of the big banksters. But they weren't the only villains. The FED fueled the housing bubble with too low prime rates for too long, Freddie and Fanny bought and resold bad paper, and the folks in government pushed lenders to be "fair" to miniorities and poor folks by lending them money for mortgages they couldn't qualify for under normal credit standards. Yet those on the left "only" want to blame Wall Street banks.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Collegekid on March 28, 2011, 10:42:33 PM
It only paid out more than it took in because it's own fund was raided by our lawmaker's years ago.  SS would work just fine had that money stayed in the account and been invested.  So no it didn't technically increase the deficit, as the money should have been gone from the budget years ago (and therefore already in the deficit).
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 28, 2011, 11:08:18 PM
It only paid out more than it took in because it's own fund was raided by our lawmaker's years ago.  SS would work just fine had that money stayed in the account and been invested.  So no it didn't technically increase the deficit, as the money should have been gone from the budget years ago (and therefore already in the deficit).

CK:

Been invested? Well geez CK what if the trust lost maybe 40% of it's value in crash of 2008-2009 just like private retirement 401K's. Isn't that why private accounts are a bad idea? And the shortfall didn't "technically" add to the deficit, it added to the deficit, period. If the trust had any real assets it could have covered the shortfall, but it doesn't, so general revenues had to cover. Now if the Congress hadn't stolen the SS supluses for 50+ years (thank you LBJ for the idea) there would have been enough to cover shortfalls for another 20 years. Then it would have been in trouble. But it has always been a matter of when, not if, the sytem would fail.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 28, 2011, 11:47:22 PM
John, wasn't "sniping" at you.  You are avoiding the question.  Doesn't matter if you want to call it a Ponzi scheme or not.  If you knew all these years since what? 1933 that it is not going to continue, then why did you wait until YOUR time is here and not long ago?  If you saw all those years back that it was being spent then to balance the budgets and would have to be paid back later, why didn't you stop it then instead of now?  The point Lordfly made is still correct.  Once I get mine end it for the rest after me.

The guy on the next block lost his house because the bank sold him a loan he could not afford, the big banks got bailed out by the taxpayers and paid big bonus' for it.  As far as I have read Fanny/Freddy fell onto the bandwagon and started doing CDS's too.  They were not the originators of that fraud.  Yeah, they are just as bad, just not "THE" bad you make out.

I really want to see where the legal text is that tells mortgage lenders to give loans to those that they know cannot pay them.  With all the lobby power of big banks and mortgage lenders I can't imagine that they would willingly give away billions of dollars without a fight.  MADE THEM give bad loans?  Really?  Did you know that the depressed areas and minorities you are accusing have a 95% repay rate, and the real problem was NOT the ones you are accusing?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on March 29, 2011, 01:52:40 AM
Kopke thinks Medicare and Social Security are Ponzi schemes, but he'll be damned if he wants us to take his "investment" away from him.

MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE MIIIIIIIIINEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on March 29, 2011, 07:16:54 AM
John, wasn't "sniping" at you.  You are avoiding the question.  Doesn't matter if you want to call it a Ponzi scheme or not.  If you knew all these years since what? 1933 that it is not going to continue, then why did you wait until YOUR time is here and not long ago?  If you saw all those years back that it was being spent then to balance the budgets and would have to be paid back later, why didn't you stop it then instead of now?  The point Lordfly made is still correct.  Once I get mine end it for the rest after me.

The guy on the next block lost his house because the bank sold him a loan he could not afford, the big banks got bailed out by the taxpayers and paid big bonus' for it.  As far as I have read Fanny/Freddy fell onto the bandwagon and started doing CDS's too.  They were not the originators of that fraud.  Yeah, they are just as bad, just not "THE" bad you make out.

I really want to see where the legal text is that tells mortgage lenders to give loans to those that they know cannot pay them.  With all the lobby power of big banks and mortgage lenders I can't imagine that they would willingly give away billions of dollars without a fight.  MADE THEM give bad loans?  Really?  Did you know that the depressed areas and minorities you are accusing have a 95% repay rate, and the real problem was NOT the ones you are accusing?

Duck, You should also tell John that Fannie and Freddie have been privatized since the early 70's...

 People should be careful when they paint with such a broad stroke about people who have had homes go into foreclosure...  There are many reasons there are so many foreclosures... Including people who would rather let their parents home go back to the bank because they can't sell it, and they don't want to pay for it...

Of course to them its OK.. they are different from the people they point fingers at...

I tell you.. through my searches of foreclosed property in Monroe.. Most of the foreclosures I ran across, the people have multiple foreclosures..  I remember when the get rich quick schemes that these infomercials were pushing were exactly that..

Buy homes on credit and flip them.. using collateral (well fake collateral) from one home as down payments on others.. Real Estate Agents to Mortgage brokers would pretty much agree on the homes value...  Their credit ratings and rules allowed it..

You can look up the foreclosures and its not unusual for some people or an investment group to have five or six foreclosures... 

This is not from people who are buying a house beyond their means...  I have heard that the people who bought houses via HUD or other low income housing.. they have had less than a 30% foreclosure rate...

Not the case when we are talking Jumbo Loans... Interest only loans.. and all the ones that had hidden increases of interest rates.. yes. you are told one thing and the Mortgage was actually for something else..

So there were many reasons... but not as black and white as one would have you think...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on March 29, 2011, 01:51:43 PM
LOL

No doubt the righties will ignore the facts and continue the parroting campaign like the dutiful ditto-heads they are.

Yep....talk about heads being buried.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 29, 2011, 01:52:39 PM
I think Lordfly is absolutely correct.  The common talk is kill off SS and Medicare AFTER the boomers are gone.  Keep pay up until after the boomers retire and then drive wages down so that they can live a comfy retirement and let those that are young pay for it.  Crash the economy with reckless gambling and let those that come later pay the tab.  You and the right preach personal responsibility and still want your handouts and still want them eliminated AFTER you.  I got my free education, so now lets eliminate that for the next generations.  Yep, good job.

And yet you disapprove of letting the State of Michigan tax pensions?  Why the double standard?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 29, 2011, 02:40:47 PM
And yet you disapprove of letting the State of Michigan tax pensions?  Why the double standard?
Too bad you cannot read and only wish to play far right wing attack dog.

I have said that the tax shift to corporations was from pensions, AND the working poor, AND poor seniors.  I even said if there was a valid reasoning that taxing wealthier pensions as a shift was not bad, just that this shift will do nothing to make things better.  I have argued that taking away those pensions, as some here push for, is wrong, yes.  I said that those pensions were promises of pay later for no increases in wages then. 

See though, that fits exactly with what I said.  Get a benefit and then after your benefit of it is over just take it away so your pocket wins before, and wins by taking away the legal promise.

The only double standard belongs to you.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 29, 2011, 02:47:54 PM
And I am still waiting for the right to explain how this huge push to lower working peoples wages (while increasing the rich's income) is going to be good.  It will reduce demand.  It will NOT reduce the cost of goods because the big corps go by worldwide demand and prices will remain high.  It will reduce tax revenues and make the deficits worse adn not better.  So, what is the PLUS to all the wage reduction pushes?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 29, 2011, 02:53:43 PM
TOKYO (Reuters) – Japan's top business lobby gave the government the green light to scrap a planned cut in the corporate tax rate and urged firms to look at shifting production to western Japan as the nation grapples with its worst crisis since World War Two.

Hiromasa Yonekura, chairman of the Japan Business Federation, said the influential lobby would not fight the government if it decided to shelve a plan to lower the corporate tax rate, which at around 40 percent is among the highest in the industrialized world.

Economics Minister Kaoru Yosano suggested last week the government should reconsider the planned tax cut of 5 percentage points from April to prioritize spending on reconstruction and prevent the country's already massive debt pile from growing.

"I don't mind if the government skips cutting the corporate tax rate," Yonekura, who is also chairman of Sumitomo Chemical, told a regular briefing in Tokyo. "Instead I want the

government to move swiftly in its recovery efforts."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_keidanren (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_keidanren)

How horrifying.  How dare those corporations ask to NOT get a tax cut to help the working people instead of take from them.  Shocking!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 29, 2011, 03:00:32 PM
Florida Legislature proves once and for all that it is for sale
By Howard Troxler, Times Columnist
In Print: Sunday, March 27, 2011

These are harsh words for a Sunday morning, but the occasion screams out for them. I take them from the Bible; please forgive me.
The Florida Legislature proved this past week, once and for all, that it is the utter w**** of Babylon.
It is now legal in our state to pay off the Legislature directly. Who says so? The Legislature.
This is not a joke.
This is not satire.
This is Florida — where the laws of our democracy are now openly, officially For Sale.
On Thursday afternoon, with greedy lip-smacking speed, the Legislature voted to relegalize a bygone and corrupt institution, outlawed in this state for more than two decades, known as "leadership funds."
These "leadership funds" are campaign slush funds operated legally and officially by the leaders of the Legislature themselves:
The speaker of the Florida House and his chosen successor, the "speaker designate."
The president of the Florida Senate and his successor.
The leaders of the minority party in the House and Senate.
So now, just as it was in Florida's corrupt past, if you are an interest group that wants a law passed, you simply go to the leaders of the House and Senate …
And you pay them off directly.
I feel the need to repeat: This is not a joke.
This is now the law of Florida, as of Thursday — for they tripped over themselves to make it effective immediately.
And so this is our stewardship of the great nation birthed by Washington and Jefferson and preserved by Lincoln.
This is the American legislative process once practiced by Clay and Webster.
This is what we have come to.
"Lawmakers" walking around with open gunny sacks, selling the democracy, frankly, proudly, wickedly, shamelessly, amorally.
Good God.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/stateroundup/florida-legislature-proves-once-and-for-all-that-it-is-for-sale/1159953 (http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/stateroundup/florida-legislature-proves-once-and-for-all-that-it-is-for-sale/1159953)

Yep, we are all but done.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 29, 2011, 03:06:38 PM
In what passes for self-restraint these days, House Republicans have been insisting that they do not intend to repeal last year’s Dodd-Frank financial reform law.
Not in one fell swoop, anyway.
A direct assault on Dodd-Frank would be so blatantly biased toward banks that it would be sure to provoke a public backlash. So the Republican plan is to delay and disrupt reform. The effort is partly ideological — an insistence that regulation is unnecessary, no matter the evidence to the contrary. It is also a campaign fund-raising ploy, because Wall Street will reward the opponents of reform. Of course, Democrats are themselves not indifferent to Wall Street campaign cash, which raises the question of how effectively they will counter the Republicans’ aims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/28/opinion/28mon1.html?_r=2 (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/28/opinion/28mon1.html?_r=2)  mre there

Yep, they are working hard to make sure that we are done.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Monrover on March 29, 2011, 05:40:26 PM

And Roger can get the F out of here.

Your superior intellect is on display.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 29, 2011, 05:48:10 PM
Your superior intellect is on display.
Well at least you left Roger out of it. :P
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 29, 2011, 09:21:40 PM
As usual this topic has gone in twelve different directions. Most simply don't want to contemplate, or discuss, the severe danger our debt, future debt and deficits are to this country. I say it is imperative we address the debt and deficits. Then someone demands that I give some examples of what I would suggest. I give a few examples and then we're off to the races arguing about whether tax credits are subsidies, or about my "supposed" personal motives for SS reform, and on and on. Yet the consequences of the looming financial catastrophe being brought about by our debt and deficits are going to hammer us all, doesn't matter whether you're a left winger or a conservative. To avoid this severe calamity we're going to have to make some very difficult choices and it is important we get moving on it now. We're all in the same boat and we can either row together towards fiscal sanity, or we can continue to bicker and point fingers until we all go over the cliff.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on March 29, 2011, 09:44:03 PM
So, what will happen when the catastrophe hits? How will we recognize it? will it be sudden, as a tornado, or subtle, as molasses in January? IF this cataclysm is coming, I doubt if you ,or I , or anyone else can stop it. Obviously, the people in charge do not see it coming; if they do, they just don't care.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 29, 2011, 10:38:37 PM
So, what will happen when the catastrophe hits? How will we recognize it? will it be sudden, as a tornado, or subtle, as molasses in January? IF this cataclysm is coming, I doubt if you ,or I , or anyone else can stop it. Obviously, the people in charge do not see it coming; if they do, they just don't care.

Sammy:
Nothing to argue with there. We're already seeing the beginning. Food and gas prices going through the roof. And the Chinese, we Americans
and others are getting leary of buying U.S. Treasury Bonds that finance the deficits. Already with QE2 the FED created money out of thin air to buy 70% of Treasuries for the first six months of this year.
This was a highly inflationary move meant to keep interest rates low,
thinking it would boost the economy. Didn't work.

Already countries and IMF talking about dumping the dollar as the world reserve currency. I won't get into a lot of details about it, for one because I don't fully understand it, but it ain't good. One thing is
when the FED prints money it spreads inflation all around the world.
If Greece inflates their currency, for example,  it hammers them directly
it isn't spread around the world because it isn't the reserve currency.

But if our deficits continue at a trillion plus and debt continues leaps and bounds nobody will buy our bonds unless the interest rate goes up
substanctially. Right now with low interest rates we pay about $ 250 billion per year in interest. If interest rates spike it could go to $ 750
billion a year in a few years. It gets like folks that can barely pay the interest on their Credit Cards, much less bring down the principle.
And it just keeps spinning out of control unless we tax more and spend a whole lot less. The value of the dollar keeps going down and
inflation explodes. If inflation hits say 10% (which in reality it is probably close to in reality today) if you're a retiree with  $ 300K in
CD's you'll lose $ 30K in value in terms of power. Since 2000 the dollar has lost like 20% of it's vale. I could go on and on.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on March 29, 2011, 10:42:20 PM
We should cut everything. We're in an emergency.

Except John Kopke's Medicare and Social Security. And we can't touch Defense. And we should probably continue to send billions to the Middle East. And we have to keep our borders secure. And I guess we should probably keep cutting corporate taxes.

I see the right has it all figured out. We'll be out of this mess in no time! Just cut everything! (except Medicare, Social Security, Defense, tax cuts for corporations, and Middle East subsidies, and DHS funding)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: T-M-T on March 29, 2011, 10:51:03 PM

If Greece inflates their currency, for example,  it hammers them directly


Today's remedial econ lesson for John:

Greece doesn't have its own currency.  They use the Euro, the currency of the EU.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 29, 2011, 11:05:19 PM
Today's remedial econ lesson for John:

Greece doesn't have its own currency.  They use the Euro, the currency of the EU.

I wonder if John can name a stable currency?  When I say stable I mean one that doesn't fluctuate daily on the whims of incredibly rich people who can make the price move by their simple act of "buying" that which they never intend to own or "selling" that which they never have actually possessed.

Ah yes, basing a currency on a commodity is perfectly sane!  <<< that was a sarcastic remark John.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 29, 2011, 11:13:58 PM
Too bad you cannot read and only wish to play far right wing attack dog.

I have said that the tax shift to corporations was from pensions, AND the working poor, AND poor seniors.  I even said if there was a valid reasoning that taxing wealthier pensions as a shift was not bad, just that this shift will do nothing to make things better.  I have argued that taking away those pensions, as some here push for, is wrong, yes.  I said that those pensions were promises of pay later for no increases in wages then

See though, that fits exactly with what I said.  Get a benefit and then after your benefit of it is over just take it away so your pocket wins before, and wins by taking away the legal promise.

The only double standard belongs to you.

No one is "taking away" pensions with Snyder's bill.  Just taxing income.

You really think that people with pensions never got pay increases?  You think they got pensions in lieu of pay increases... really?

My wife has a pension, and she got her raise this year.  Half the folks I work with have pensions and still got all their contractual raises.  Lets review what a pension is.  A pension is income earned AFTER you no longer work for a company or organization, the value of which is based on your final rate of pay when you retire.  A pension is not a promise to reimburse a worker for money they failed to receive in "raises".
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on March 30, 2011, 12:40:28 AM
No one is "taking away" pensions with Snyder's bill.  Just taxing income.

You really think that people with pensions never got pay increases?  You think they got pensions in lieu of pay increases... really?

My wife has a pension, and she got her raise this year.  Half the folks I work with have pensions and still got all their contractual raises.  Lets review what a pension is.  A pension is income earned AFTER you no longer work for a company or organization, the value of which is based on your final rate of pay when you retire.  A pension is not a promise to reimburse a worker for money they failed to receive in "raises".

Wait a second there JB.. not everyone have those types of pensions.. My pension my employer put in like 2% of my pay.. I have control on how its invested, whatever choices ING has to invest with.. and mine pays out based on what I have in my Pension... not on what I earned my last years of working... no its not a 401k although they have switched to that now, with no employer contribution.. but I am vested in my pension..

Some people do not get their pensions..  Remember when Pan Am went belly up?  All their employees lost their entire pension because Pan Am used their pensions and lost it... I remember a friend of mines father worked 33 years for Pan Am.. and not a penny was left when he retired because they went belly up.. he was 70 at the time.. He painted houses to help make ends meet because he could not support him and his wife who was a homemaker on just his social security..

My Sister who worked at one of the hospitals that HCA bought out... Before the buy out.. they had agreed to take a pay cut, in exchange for stock in the hospital that went into their pension plan..

HCA buys the hospital.. and raids the pension plan...  my sister had over 90k in her account.. not she has like 6k...  They devalued the stock.. She had no control and no say so about her pension.. She was also the Director of Nursing..

So I don't know who these people are who get paid what they were making their last year of working as their pension... 

My father was a teamster that worked 33 years for the same company... He died before he got his pension.. my Step mother took the lump sum which was 175k..  I don't know how they figure it.. but his last year of work, 1988.. he only worked less than half of the year, he died on July 4th.. I know he had already made 60k that year, even though he had cancer and was in Chemo a good two months before he died... So I figure his gross income averaged well over a 100k a year.. so obviously they did not pay a pension on the same rate of money he earned..

I don't think my friend who is retired from FORD gets the same as she made when she worked...

and what about these companies that use employee pension plans as investment capital and lose it...

I mean there have been some big companies go under that have used their employees money..

So I think you may be wrong about they get the same pay retired as they did when they worked.. I know too many people who that isn't so... 

I think JB, at least for me.. Its not about taxing the pensions.. Its about the tax shift.. It has nothing to do with the budget.. it will not reduce the budget.. It is literally taking money from working people and giving it to corporations.. because that IS what it IS.. no matter how you want to spin it..

I also think it is a big take away on a "what if" we make the businesses happier they may create more jobs...  I don't like that..

If you want to give the businesses a break.. have it something you can see and keep track of.. I have already stated a way to give all businesses a break.. for every employee they hire and retain.. that will not add to the budget, but reduce the budget shortfalls, giving corporations their tax break.. and there would be no need for this tax shift..

Because this isn't about the budget.. Snyder is giving a large break, without any guarantee that new jobs to be created, and there is nothing in the bill that separates those businesses that will use the break to hire more people.. I am willing to bet.. MOST will get a free ride in this wave of corporate welfare that somehow has been the Mantra for the past ten years..
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 30, 2011, 08:48:09 AM
No one is "taking away" pensions with Snyder's bill.  Just taxing income.

Give it time.

Quote
You really think that people with pensions never got pay increases?  You think they got pensions in lieu of pay increases... really?

Getting real good at making up what other people say or think there J.  Where, anywhere did I say anything like that?  I said that pensions were in lieu of increased pay, and only that.  But a pretty good Fox imitation.

Quote
My wife has a pension, and she got her raise this year.  Half the folks I work with have pensions and still got all their contractual raises.  Lets review what a pension is.  A pension is income earned AFTER you no longer work for a company or organization, the value of which is based on your final rate of pay when you retire.  A pension is not a promise to reimburse a worker for money they failed to receive in "raises".

You are wrong. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 30, 2011, 08:51:35 AM
As usual this topic has gone in twelve different directions. Most simply don't want to contemplate, or discuss, the severe danger our debt, future debt and deficits are to this country. I say it is imperative we address the debt and deficits. Then someone demands that I give some examples of what I would suggest. I give a few examples and then we're off to the races arguing about whether tax credits are subsidies, or about my "supposed" personal motives for SS reform, and on and on. Yet the consequences of the looming financial catastrophe being brought about by our debt and deficits are going to hammer us all, doesn't matter whether you're a left winger or a conservative. To avoid this severe calamity we're going to have to make some very difficult choices and it is important we get moving on it now. We're all in the same boat and we can either row together towards fiscal sanity, or we can continue to bicker and point fingers until we all go over the cliff.

As far as I can tell everyone is pretty much on topic.  It is "we are all but done" not "the deficit is going to kill the country next week"

Why is the "shared sacrifice" always the working man or those on fixed incomes and not anyone else?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 30, 2011, 12:00:10 PM
Today's remedial econ lesson for John:

Greece doesn't have its own currency.  They use the Euro, the currency of the EU.

You are correct, and I know better. Just moving too fast. Point was
FED dollars are the reserve currency for the world and when we inflate the inflation is spread around the world.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: T-M-T on March 30, 2011, 12:17:57 PM
I know you knew that, just taking a playful jab.

There are quite a few sane, knowledgeable people who don’t share your blame of the Federal Reserve for the financial crisis.  There is a lot of blame to go around from greedy, gambling Wall Street bankers to foolish real estate speculators.

In any case, I thought that the bipartisan commission came up with a sensible combination of tax cuts and spending cuts to get things under control.  Shared pain, but a workable solution.  It made a lot of sense and seemed like a fair compromise (something we never see anymore). The Dems, Repubs and Tea Repubs all dismissed it as if it never happened.  Why?

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 30, 2011, 12:30:08 PM
I wonder if John can name a stable currency?  When I say stable I mean one that doesn't fluctuate daily on the whims of incredibly rich people who can make the price move by their simple act of "buying" that which they never intend to own or "selling" that which they never have actually possessed.

Ah yes, basing a currency on a commodity is perfectly sane!  <<< that was a sarcastic remark John.

JBS
Of course there is no stable currency. Never will be stable fiat currency.
I understand you're not a fan of gold or otherwise backed currency.
But does that mean you're on board for the FED's QE1 and QE2
(monetizing the debt) and potentially for a QE3, QE4 etc. etc
ultimately evolving into what could be called WE10, WE11 etc.?
(W short for Weimar)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: T-M-T on March 30, 2011, 12:47:22 PM
Here is the report I mentioned:

http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf (http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf)

It addresses the federal debt and stabilization of Social Security with some serious medicine.

The extremists on both sides hate it.  That probably means it’s a pretty good solution.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 30, 2011, 12:50:49 PM
I know you knew that, just taking a playful jab.

There are quite a few sane, knowledgeable people who don’t share your blame of the Federal Reserve for the financial crisis.  There is a lot of blame to go around from greedy, gambling Wall Street bankers to foolish real estate speculators.

In any case, I thought that the bipartisan commission came up with a sensible combination of tax cuts and spending cuts to get things under control.  Shared pain, but a workable solution.  It made a lot of sense and seemed like a fair compromise (something we never see anymore). The Dems, Repubs and Tea Repubs all dismissed it as if it never happened.  Why?

TNT:

Actually I am with you. It wasn't just the FED, it was the Banksters,
mortgage brokers, Fannie and Freddie, etc., and of course the folks in Washington. The main thing with the FED is their low low interest rates, for too long, fueled the bubble. If they started raising rates
years ago they could have put the brakes on.

More I consider the commission recommendations, more I am coming around, and it is a hell of a lot better than anything I've seen so far.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 30, 2011, 02:38:20 PM
Give it time.

Getting real good at making up what other people say or think there J.  Where, anywhere did I say anything like that?  I said that pensions were in lieu of increased pay, and only that.  But a pretty good Fox imitation.

You are wrong. 

I bolded and underlined it when I quoted your post.   Just like I did here.

Too bad you cannot read and only wish to play far right wing attack dog.

I have said that the tax shift to corporations was from pensions, AND the working poor, AND poor seniors.  I even said if there was a valid reasoning that taxing wealthier pensions as a shift was not bad, just that this shift will do nothing to make things better.  I have argued that taking away those pensions, as some here push for, is wrong, yes.  I said that those pensions were promises of pay later for no increases in wages then. 

See though, that fits exactly with what I said.  Get a benefit and then after your benefit of it is over just take it away so your pocket wins before, and wins by taking away the legal promise.

The only double standard belongs to you.

There is the post again... not cut in any way.

And here I just reposed and added your words "I have argued" and "I said that"... would you still like to tell me that I made it up?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 30, 2011, 02:50:12 PM
Duck,

As far as your "You are wrong." comment.

Care to share?  I just told you about my wife's pension, that it's value is based on what she makes in the final years of her employment, and that a pension is not a payment in lieu of raises.  Do you know more about my wife's pension than I do?  Because I just told you about HER PENSION.

Can you prove that people only got pensions because they didn't take raises?  I can prove my wife gets a pension and has gotten every single one of her contractual raises!

My question to you remains... are you claiming that people with pensions did/do not get raises?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 30, 2011, 03:17:48 PM
JBS
Of course there is no stable currency. Never will be stable fiat currency.
I understand you're not a fan of gold or otherwise backed currency.
But does that mean you're on board for the FED's QE1 and QE2
(monetizing the debt) and potentially for a QE3, QE4 etc. etc
ultimately evolving into what could be called WE10, WE11 etc.?
(W short for Weimar)


I am a fan of metals John, that is where your logic fails.  Metals are a great investment right now, but thats what they are, they are an investment.  They are also a commodity so they are vulnerable to manipulation. 

Let's talk about the inflation of the dollar.

There is a really neat calculator at this site:

http://www.coinnews.net/tools/cpi-inflation-calculator/ (http://www.coinnews.net/tools/cpi-inflation-calculator/)

Now this site is a big bastian for purchasing silver, they are big on metals just like you.

In the year 2000 a if you paid $25 for an item, according to inflation of the US dollar you should expect to pay $25.70 today.

Now lets look at silver.  In 2000 when silver was around $6 an ounce you could buy 4.16oz. with that $25.  Today by using $37oz as the basis it would cost you $153.92 to purchase the same amount of silver. 

http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/yearly_graphs.plx (http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/yearly_graphs.plx)

It would appear to me that the item you would like used to fend off the inflation of the US dollar has itself been inflated at a rate more than 6 fold of the US dollar.  Yet you argue that metals are more stable than fiat currency?  I am decent with numbers John, and it would appear to me that silver (mainly through manipulation) far outpaces the US dollar as far as being an "inflated" currency.  So if one invested in silver they have outpaced US dollar inflation by 6X and made alot of money which is the best indicator that metals have been a good INVESTMENT.  What if silver were the currency?  Where would you be pushing folks to as a hedge against silver's inflation?

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 30, 2011, 04:54:22 PM
I bolded and underlined it when I quoted your post.   Just like I did here.

There is the post again... not cut in any way.

And here I just reposed and added your words "I have argued" and "I said that"... would you still like to tell me that I made it up?
What you asked…” You really think that people with pensions never got pay increases?  You think they got pensions in lieu of pay increases... really? “

 Where did I say that people with pensions never got pay raises?  Where above did I say that?  Once again making it up as you go.   Frankly, I am unsure how you even jumped to that from anything.  Your repeating my words says what I have said all along and nowhere does it say that they never got wage increases.  I don’t even know how that is supposed to help your spin.  All I get out of it is that you are making up what I say and calling me a liar over what you make up.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 30, 2011, 04:55:11 PM
Duck,

As far as your "You are wrong." comment.

Care to share?  I just told you about my wife's pension, that it's value is based on what she makes in the final years of her employment, and that a pension is not a payment in lieu of raises.  Do you know more about my wife's pension than I do?  Because I just told you about HER PENSION.

Can you prove that people only got pensions because they didn't take raises?  I can prove my wife gets a pension and has gotten every single one of her contractual raises!

My question to you remains... are you claiming that people with pensions did/do not get raises?


The made up comment about me saying that people that get pensions did not ever get raises I addressed in another post. 

“A pension is not a promise to reimburse a worker for money they failed to receive in "raises".”

“It is important to understand how we got into this predicament. During WWII government wanted to hold down wages to prevent inflation given that much of the nation’s productive activity was oriented toward the war. Unions and employers negotiated postponed payment in the form of pensions—which pleased all three parties: big firms, big government, and big unions. Government promoted this with tax advantages for contributions to pensions. Firms loved pushing costs to an indefinite future—rather than paying wages, they would promise to pay pensions 30 or 40 years down the road. Much of the promise was unfunded, or met by stock in the firm. This meant that pensions could be paid only if the firm was successful for a very long time into the future.
http://wallstreetpit.com/14426-should-the-federal-government-promote-and-protect-pensions-at-all (http://wallstreetpit.com/14426-should-the-federal-government-promote-and-protect-pensions-at-all)


Pensions were intended and given as future wages in lieu of wages then. If or whether they got raises after that time is irrelevant.  But, I will give you that.  I don’t know firsthand but I am pretty confident that wages DID go up even with pensions.  That doesn’t change why or how they began, or how they were used.  And thanks for finally asking it as a question instead of insisting that it is what I have said.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 30, 2011, 05:18:45 PM
So an "increse in pay" is not a "raise"?  I am done with your semantics duck.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on March 30, 2011, 05:54:29 PM
So an "increse in pay" is not a "raise"?  I am done with your semantics duck.
Well, you got me on that one.  I have no clue what that is supposed to be about.  If it were a question, which it was not, I would answer that I have used  (if I did use) "increase in pay" as interchangeable with "raise".  But, however you are now changing what I said I have no clue.

Maybe you are right and I should stop answering to your distortions and hope that some day you stop making things up just to score points.  You want to discuss, I will discuss, you want to prove me factually wrong, I can accept that  But this constant need you have to make up what I say and LIE (yes, saying I said what I did not is a lie) is becoming pointless. You don't want discussion, you want to hit at a perceived enemy.  Got it.  Go back to Fox.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 30, 2011, 08:21:17 PM
I am a fan of metals John, that is where your logic fails.  Metals are a great investment right now, but thats what they are, they are an investment.  They are also a commodity so they are vulnerable to manipulation. 

Let's talk about the inflation of the dollar.

There is a really neat calculator at this site:

[url]http://www.coinnews.net/tools/cpi-inflation-calculator/[/url] ([url]http://www.coinnews.net/tools/cpi-inflation-calculator/[/url])

Now this site is a big bastian for purchasing silver, they are big on metals just like you.

In the year 2000 a if you paid $25 for an item, according to inflation of the US dollar you should expect to pay $25.70 today.

Now lets look at silver.  In 2000 when silver was around $6 an ounce you could buy 4.16oz. with that $25.  Today by using $37oz as the basis it would cost you $153.92 to purchase the same amount of silver. 

[url]http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/yearly_graphs.plx[/url] ([url]http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/yearly_graphs.plx[/url])

It would appear to me that the item you would like used to fend off the inflation of the US dollar has itself been inflated at a rate more than 6 fold of the US dollar.  Yet you argue that metals are more stable than fiat currency?  I am decent with numbers John, and it would appear to me that silver (mainly through manipulation) far outpaces the US dollar as far as being an "inflated" currency.  So if one invested in silver they have outpaced US dollar inflation by 6X and made alot of money which is the best indicator that metals have been a good INVESTMENT.  What if silver were the currency?  Where would you be pushing folks to as a hedge against silver's inflation?


JBS:
Interesting argument. One minor thing that doesn't really have much of anything to do with the major thrust of you argument is the
example of the $ 25.00 in 2000 with inflation would mean you would pay $ 25.70 today. Seemed pretty low to me, so I used the calculator starting with $ 25.00 in 2000 and it came out to $ 32.13 in 2011 or 28.5% inflation over that period of time. No big deal you must have plugged in something other than what I did. 

In any event, back to your main your point on silver as a currency. Now if silver coins were the currency there would be a starting point, lets say 1913, that defined how many grams of silver in a $ 1.00 coin. Lets say for this example the original had 10 grams of silver in a $ 1.00 coin. But let's say 5 years later (1918) a dishonest government, that had been borrowing its brains out, made the decision the best way to pay back its debt would be to inflate the $ 1.00 silver coin by reducing, by half, the number of grams of silver in that $ 1.00 coin.
We would then have a situation where the 1913-1917 dollar coins we have in our possession have twice as may grams of silver and are essentially worth twice as much in silver content as the 1918 coin. Are you going to spend those 1913-1917 coins in the marketplace at the "face" value, or would you be inclined to melt them down and sell the silver to the guy selling silver to the government. You might lose a little bit in the exchange with the silver seller, but it wouldn't be 50%.

Now with fiat/paper dollars if you have a $ 1.00 bill printed in 1913 and the currency is inflated 50% in 1918 what can you do with a piece of paper printed between 1913-1917 besides bend over?

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 30, 2011, 08:29:46 PM
JBS:
Interesting argument. One minor thing that doesn't really have much of anything to do with the major thrust of you argument is the
example of the $ 25.00 in 2000 with inflation would mean you would pay $ 25.70 today. Seemed pretty low to me, so I used the calculator starting with $ 25.00 in 2000 and it came out to $ 32.13 in 2011 or 28.5% inflation over that period of time. No big deal you must have plugged in something other than what I did. 

In any event, back to your main your point on silver as a currency. Now if silver coins were the currency there would be a starting point, lets say 1913, that defined how many grams of silver in a $ 1.00 coin. Lets say for this example the original had 10 grams of silver in a $ 1.00 coin. But let's say 5 years later (1918) a dishonest government, that had been borrowing its brains out, made the decision the best way to pay back its debt would be to inflate the $ 1.00 silver coin by reducing, by half, the number of grams of silver in that $ 1.00 coin.
We would then have a situation where the 1913-1917 dollar coins we have in our possession have twice as may grams of silver and are essentially worth twice as much in silver content as the 1918 coin. Are you going to spend those 1913-1917 coins in the marketplace at the "face" value, or would you be inclined to melt them down and sell the silver to the guy selling silver to the government. You might lose a little bit in the exchange with the silver seller, but it wouldn't be 50%.

Now with fiat/paper dollars if you have a $ 1.00 bill printed in 1913 and the currency is inflated 50% in 1918 what can you do with a piece of paper printed between 1913-1917?


Nice idea, but it is against the law to purposely deface currency or melt coins.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on March 30, 2011, 08:34:24 PM
Nice idea, but it is against the law to purposely deface currency or melt coins.
But what if it is the right thing to do?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 30, 2011, 08:44:05 PM
Nice idea, but it is against the law to purposely deface currency or melt coins.

Fluff:
You're absolutely right. The "government" has a law making it illegal for us to do that. Yet Fluff, doesn't it burn your butt that that same government, in collusion with the FED, can debase the value of our currency by 28.5% between 2000 and 2011, but that's OK?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: TheSeeker on March 30, 2011, 08:58:52 PM
But what if it is the right thing to do?

Why am I reminded of a broken faucet?  You know what's coming, but it's still very irritating. Drip...Drip..Drip.  :P
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: LetsGoWings on March 30, 2011, 09:11:34 PM
Why am I reminded of a broken faucet?  You know what's coming, but it's still very irritating. Drip...Drip..Drip.  :P
So its ok for FB to point there are difference between legal and right, but I am not, thanks for letting me know.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 30, 2011, 09:13:27 PM
Fluff:
You're absolutely right. The "government" has a law making it illegal for us to do that. Yet Fluff, doesn't it burn your butt that that same government, in collusion with the FED, can debase the value of our currency by 28.5% between 2000 and 2011, but that's OK?
There are a lot of things that "burn my butt", but on the list of things that take a priority, that would be pretty close to the least of them.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 30, 2011, 09:28:19 PM
There are a lot of things that "burn my butt", but on the list of things that take a priority, that would be pretty close to the least of them.

Well Fluff it may not be a high priority for you today, but let me ask you this. The world is soon going to refuse to buy our US Bonds to cover our deficits. Many, like Japan (# 2 foreign holder of our debt) have problems of their own. When there aren't any buyers of bonds to cover our trillion and a half per year deficits what do we do?  Do we stop paying SS checks, or paying for Medicare and Medicaid? Or does the FED start printing more funny money. When that happens I think you might start paying attention.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on March 31, 2011, 04:27:59 AM
Well Fluff it may not be a high priority for you today, but let me ask you this. The world is soon going to refuse to buy our US Bonds to cover our deficits. Many, like Japan (# 2 foreign holder of our debt) have problems of their own. When there aren't any buyers of bonds to cover our trillion and a half per year deficits what do we do?  Do we stop paying SS checks, or paying for Medicare and Medicaid? Or does the FED start printing more funny money. When that happens I think you might start paying attention.
Or stop funding wars? Or stop foreign aid? Or stop playing police man to the world? Or...?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 31, 2011, 07:03:33 AM
Kopke you are right I put in the wrong figure my values should have read 20 -> 25.70 a rise of 28.5%

Silver has risen from 6 -> 37 at rise of 500+%.

So which is more stable?

And I'll tell ya what I do with a note from 1913-1917... I sell it for the numistic value which is probably much higher than the rate of inflation.  Just FYI.

It still just perplexes me that to get away from inflation of 28.5% you think it wise to base a currency on an item which has an inflation rate of 500+% over the same time period.  Seems odd, doesn't it?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 31, 2011, 07:20:12 AM
Well, you got me on that one.  I have no clue what that is supposed to be about.  If it were a question, which it was not, I would answer that I have used  (if I did use) "increase in pay" as interchangeable with "raise".  But, however you are now changing what I said I have no clue.

Maybe you are right and I should stop answering to your distortions and hope that some day you stop making things up just to score points.  You want to discuss, I will discuss, you want to prove me factually wrong, I can accept that  But this constant need you have to make up what I say and LIE (yes, saying I said what I did not is a lie) is becoming pointless. You don't want discussion, you want to hit at a perceived enemy.  Got it.  Go back to Fox.

Your posts speak for themselves.  I'm sorry your own double speak confused you.  I guess if bolding and underlineing your own words is telling lies.... oh wait its not!

I posted your exact words and you still try to deny them.... and yet still find room to squeeze in calling me a LIAR again?  Priceless duck.... Priceless!

Hey... enough with the personal attacks already!   LMFAO!!!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on March 31, 2011, 08:15:08 AM
Or stop funding wars? Or stop foreign aid? Or stop playing police man to the world? Or...?

That works for me!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Monrover on March 31, 2011, 08:30:26 AM
That works for me!

+1
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on March 31, 2011, 12:50:47 PM
Fluff:
You're absolutely right. The "government" has a law making it illegal for us to do that. Yet Fluff, doesn't it burn your butt that that same government, in collusion with the FED, can debase the value of our currency by 28.5% between 2000 and 2011, but that's OK?

It is "government" until your boys are in power. Then, it's the American Government.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 31, 2011, 04:43:15 PM
Kopke you are right I put in the wrong figure my values should have read 20 -> 25.70 a rise of 28.5%

Silver has risen from 6 -> 37 at rise of 500+%.

So which is more stable?

And I'll tell ya what I do with a note from 1913-1917... I sell it for the numistic value which is probably much higher than the rate of inflation.  Just FYI.

It still just perplexes me that to get away from inflation of 28.5% you think it wise to base a currency on an item which has an inflation rate of 500+% over the same time period.  Seems odd, doesn't it?

JBS:
Regarding your last sentence:

“ It still just perplexes me that to get away from inflation of 28.5% you think it wise to base a currency on an item which has an inflation rate of 500+% over the same time period.  Seems odd, doesn't it?”
------------------------------------------------
* First, with our  fiat based currency system silver did not inflate, it
 appreciated. If you take your $ 37.00 per oz  price today and  back out the 28.5 fiat inflation rate from the 2000-2011 period that $ 37.00 would be the equivalent of  $28.77 in 2000 dollars. Since you paid
$ 6.00 an oz in 2000 you made an extremely good investment.

* Now you contention that a silver dollar currency would have
   inflated 500+ percent doesn’t really compute because it is based on
   figures derived from calculations based on a fiat currency system.
   Now I not smart enough to definitively tell you what a silver currency
   would have done over that period, but  I can tell you that the
   government , or the FED, couldn’t devalue a silver based currency
   by creating them out of thin air via a few strokes on a keyboard or
   a printing press.     
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on March 31, 2011, 05:07:01 PM
JBS:
Regarding your last sentence:

Regarding  your writing:

“ It still just perplexes me that to get away from inflation of 28.5% you think it wise to base a currency on an item which has an inflation rate of 500+% over the same time period.  Seems odd, doesn't it?”
------------------------------------------------
* First, with our  fiat based currency system silver did not inflate, it
 appreciated. If you take your $ 37.00 per oz  price today and  back out the 28.5 fiat inflation rate from the 2000-2011 period that $ 37.00 would be the equivalent of  $28.77 in 2000 dollars. Since you paid
$ 6.00 an oz in 2000 you made an extremely good investment.

* Now you contention that a silver dollar currency would have
   inflated 500+ percent doesn’t really compute because it is based on
   figures derived from calculations based on a fiat currency system.
   Now I not smart enough to definitively tell you what a silver currency
   would have done over that period, but  I can tell you that the
   government , or the FED, couldn’t devalue a silver based currency
   by creating them out of thin air via a few strokes on a keyboard or
   a printing press.     


Thank you for finally putting to bed what silver is.  An investment against fiat currencies.  Nothing more.  It is simply too volitile to use as a currency as the "value" of a "dollar" would change everyday, how would you account for that?  You could only use paper, you can't go changing the composition of coinage week by week can you?  So as you can see... you need a "fiat" or paper currency no matter what you base your "value" on.

Also, where do you propose the government get all its metals?  Confiscation.... again?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on March 31, 2011, 06:38:48 PM
Thank you for finally putting to bed what silver is.  An investment against fiat currencies.  Nothing more.  It is simply too volatile to use as a currency as the "value" of a "dollar" would change everyday, how would you account for that?  You could only use paper, you can't go changing the composition of coinage week by week can you?  So as you can see... you need a "fiat" or paper currency no matter what you base your "value" on.

Also, where do you propose the government get all its metals?  Confiscation.... again?

JBS:
You say the value of silver is too volatile to use as a currency, but,
as I said before, you're conclusion is determined and calculated on
the basis of it's value as a commodity "within" a fiat based system.
You have not produced any evidence that a non-fiat, silver based 
currency system would have such fluctuations.

I may be nitpicking semantically, but you mentioned buying silver as an investment  "against" fiat currencies. Is "against" what you wanted to say?
I have purchased a little gold, but I didn't do it as an "attack" or "against"
fiat currency, I did it as protection "from" fiat currency.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 01, 2011, 06:47:53 AM
JBS:
You say the value of silver is too volatile to use as a currency, but,
as I said before, you're conclusion is determined and calculated on
the basis of it's value as a commodity "within" a fiat based system.
You have not produced any evidence that a non-fiat, silver based 
currency system would have such fluctuations.

I may be nitpicking semantically, but you mentioned buying silver as an investment  "against" fiat currencies. Is "against" what you wanted to say?
I have purchased a little gold, but I didn't do it as an "attack" or "against"
fiat currency, I did it as protection "from" fiat currency.

Your end goal is to obtain more fiat currency, so why would you say silver is protecting you against it?  You make it sound as if you purchase metals so you do not have to deal in fiat, which is false.  No matter what you deal in you deal in the "dollar".  Silver is not valued at "a third of a barrel of oil", but you can exchange your silver for the amount of fiat currency to buy said oil.

Where will you get all your metals John... you didn't answer... confiscation?

And yes I buy silver to leverage against the dollar.  Against is the proper term when you invest.  When you buy stock you are saying your stock will perform better that the dollar, thus you are investing in stocks against the dollar.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on April 01, 2011, 11:07:31 AM
Your end goal is to obtain more fiat currency, so why would you say silver is protecting you against it?  You make it sound as if you purchase metals so you do not have to deal in fiat, which is false.  No matter what you deal in you deal in the "dollar".  Silver is not valued at "a third of a barrel of oil", but you can exchange your silver for the amount of fiat currency to buy said oil.

Where will you get all your metals John... you didn't answer... confiscation?

And yes I buy silver to leverage against the dollar.  Against is the proper term when you invest.  When you buy stock you are saying your stock will perform better that the dollar, thus you are investing in stocks against the dollar.
No matter what you deal in you deal in the "dollar".

No, we deal in the Federal Reserve Unit of Account Dollar, not the US Dollar. Big difference. The US Dollar is lawful money.

Silver is not valued at "a third of a barrel of oil", but you can exchange your silver for the amount of fiat currency to buy said oil.

Yes, you must exchange/convert any and all other fiat currencies to the FED Unit of Account Dollar to purchase oil.
 
Who made that rule?

When? 1944?

Is this why Russia and China kicked the Fed Note to the curb and agreed on bi-lateral trade and payment of Ruble to Renminbi for Russian oil being pumped into China?

Is this why Iran converted all of their oil payments into a basket of currencies that DON"T include the Fed Note? Or, are they still just angry over that Mosadegh thing from the 50's?

Where will you get all your metals John... you didn't answer... confiscation?

The government is in the confiscation business for the FED system, just ask the IRS.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 01, 2011, 08:37:00 PM
Gotten a little off track getting with the fiat versus metals. Probably
this discussion is better suited for Smash's Gold topic.

We see a little good news on employment today. That's good. But even if it continues, and that remains to be seen, the debt and the deficits are still going to take us down.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 01, 2011, 08:48:54 PM
THE SKY IS FALLING! If You believe what you continue to bleat here, it's hard to believe you haven't offed yourself already! Take a couple of deep breaths, and maybe you'll see that there is life after disaster after all!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 01, 2011, 09:34:54 PM
THE SKY IS FALLING! If You believe what you continue to bleat here, it's hard to believe you haven't offed yourself already! Take a couple of deep breaths, and maybe you'll see that there is life after disaster after all!

Well Sammy, unlike you, I'm getting as best prepared as I can to weather the coming chaos, while you are sitting in the parlour of the Titanic listening to the music as the ship goes down. And Sammy, you're right there will be life after disaster. Unfortunately for you, as a charter member of the oblivious, your life after disaster will be a disaster.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 01, 2011, 09:43:43 PM
Well Sammy, unlike you, I'm getting as best prepared as I can to weather the coming chaos, while you, are sitting in the parlour of the Titanic listening to the music as the ship goes down. And Sammy, you're right there will be life after disaster. Unfortunately for you, as a charter member of the oblivious, your life after disaster will be a disaster.
You've been whining for quite some time now.....looks like many see you for who you really are....
(http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/SONIS/C1650~Chicken-Little-Posters.jpg)
Our hero  8*
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 01, 2011, 09:48:52 PM
Exactly how do you know I'm prepared or not prepared? Did you not read that I HAVE A GARDEN?!Do you have a garden, or do you not believe that is important when the END comes?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 01, 2011, 10:02:02 PM
Exactly how do you know I'm prepared or not prepared? Did you not read that I HAVE A GARDEN?!Do you have a garden, or do you not believe that is important when the END comes?

Well Geez Sammy, you're the one who was accusing me of being a loon for espousing that the sky was falling and now your in competition with me as to which of us is the best survivalist.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on April 01, 2011, 10:09:04 PM
Exactly how do you know I'm prepared or not prepared? Did you not read that I HAVE A GARDEN?!Do you have a garden, or do you not believe that is important when the END comes?

Don't advertise that you have a garden!

The government will kick your arse!

Have you seen how many people have been jailed and had their "property" seized by the government because they don't have a license to grow and distribute FOOD!

My god man the Hillarys could regulate you into foreclosure and the Huckabees could fine you into jail!

Stay under the radar and only try to feed your family.

Unless they are one of "them"!

Don't forget, the Republicans and the Democrats are the only ones who know what is best for you!

OBEY
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 01, 2011, 10:44:12 PM
Well Geez Sammy, you're the one who was accusing me of being a loon for espousing that the sky was falling and now your in competition with me as to which of us is the best survivalist.
I may be wrong, but I think you accused me of snarking when I mentioned my garden!?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 01, 2011, 11:10:07 PM
I may be wrong, but I think you accused me of snarking when I mentioned my garden!?

You are wrong. I didn't initimate, or accuse, you or snarking at all. All I did was use your own words to illustrate you made separate posts that were competing sides of the same issue.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on April 02, 2011, 01:05:20 AM


John.. when exactly is the crash coming?   See, I don't trust your way of thinking..  Is it going to happen while President Obama is in office this term.. or will it me in his next..

Let me guess, the only way to avoid it is electing the GOP... regardless. 

I guess it really sucks for you that the markets are coming back.. that Jobs are opening up, and its happening without one GOP bill to be seen...

The Stimulus is working.. not all of it has been used.  It could work further if we did not have some Republican Knot Heads trying to prove a point...  Sabotaging to cause failure regardless of how many people in their State would directly benefit from having jobs created.

Three months in office and not one talk of a Jobs bill..  and that's all they talked about when the dems were in control.. dealing with the Republicans that abused the filibuster, again to cause failure..

Even with all of that.. and your own post after post of gloom and doom... Major natural disasters, two wars, and a part of a coalition that much to some peoples observation.. we are not taking the lead role this time..

Yet through all of this, our economy IS rebounding!  The stimulus IS being paid back.. if the Bush Tax cuts could be elimenated, thats 800 billion annual revenue...

So with that information..

Lets look at how in better times.. President Bush and why he did the tax cuts in the first place..  The economy began to stagger and we were losing jobs and the ones that were being created were wal mart jobs..

Bush's tax refunds and cuts and corporate cuts and deregulation the entire way you look at things have been done.. It led to disaster!

So why would anyone want to listen to you...

I had started posting we were in serious trouble and I thought the bubble was going to burst back at the beginning of 2008..   You told me I was clueless..  The only people who were talking about the mortgage mess were me, French Fry, and Sue Lee...

11 Million Jobs lost is hard for any economy and it decreases revenue... double edged sword!

You defended your party's economics until the crash... and now even after the fact, you still swear by it... rather if its been regurgitated or not!

I am a market watcher.. have been since I was a teen...  You are someone that listens to someone else and that is why you think you know something that other people are just too "clueless" to understand...

If anything crashes our country.. it will be the demoralization of the American Worker... and making corporate entities our G-ds...  By using people like you to vote the way they want you to vote!..

They need the Government to keep the Status Quo.. and I know Democrats are not perfect.. but it IS the only other party, and it should be evident to most people with eyes, they are more independent thinkers in the Demorcratic Party... 

The Republicans were not always this collusive,  but they have turned the GOP into the giant brain that they better all agree or they will turn on those that don't... and ere goes the power and the greed...

That is how I see our country going down... to where people are only able to earn just enough.. that way you don't have time to worry about the other stuff...

The real power are those that are invested in what we need to live.. The corporate giants ConAgra has our food, the Oil Companies, our energy, how the speculators still can drive gas prices up!
and this out and out attack on Unions... 

Tear down what we have left to fight with...  our independence and freedom..

Yep John, if we have it your way, we are all but done...

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Johnson35 on April 03, 2011, 10:09:52 AM

John.. when exactly is the crash coming?   See, I don't trust your way of thinking..  Is it going to happen while President Obama is in office this term.. or will it me in his next..

Let me guess, the only way to avoid it is electing the GOP... regardless. 

I guess it really sucks for you that the markets are coming back.. that Jobs are opening up, and its happening without one GOP bill to be seen...

The Stimulus is working.. not all of it has been used.  It could work further if we did not have some Republican Knot Heads trying to prove a point...  Sabotaging to cause failure regardless of how many people in their State would directly benefit from having jobs created.

Three months in office and not one talk of a Jobs bill..  and that's all they talked about when the dems were in control.. dealing with the Republicans that abused the filibuster, again to cause failure..

Even with all of that.. and your own post after post of gloom and doom... Major natural disasters, two wars, and a part of a coalition that much to some peoples observation.. we are not taking the lead role this time..

Yet through all of this, our economy IS rebounding!  The stimulus IS being paid back.. if the Bush Tax cuts could be elimenated, thats 800 billion annual revenue...

So with that information..

Lets look at how in better times.. President Bush and why he did the tax cuts in the first place..  The economy began to stagger and we were losing jobs and the ones that were being created were wal mart jobs..

Bush's tax refunds and cuts and corporate cuts and deregulation the entire way you look at things have been done.. It led to disaster!

So why would anyone want to listen to you...

I had started posting we were in serious trouble and I thought the bubble was going to burst back at the beginning of 2008..   You told me I was clueless..  The only people who were talking about the mortgage mess were me, French Fry, and Sue Lee...

11 Million Jobs lost is hard for any economy and it decreases revenue... double edged sword!

You defended your party's economics until the crash... and now even after the fact, you still swear by it... rather if its been regurgitated or not!

I am a market watcher.. have been since I was a teen...  You are someone that listens to someone else and that is why you think you know something that other people are just too "clueless" to understand...

If anything crashes our country.. it will be the demoralization of the American Worker... and making corporate entities our G-ds...  By using people like you to vote the way they want you to vote!..

They need the Government to keep the Status Quo.. and I know Democrats are not perfect.. but it IS the only other party, and it should be evident to most people with eyes, they are more independent thinkers in the Demorcratic Party... 

The Republicans were not always this collusive,  but they have turned the GOP into the giant brain that they better all agree or they will turn on those that don't... and ere goes the power and the greed...

That is how I see our country going down... to where people are only able to earn just enough.. that way you don't have time to worry about the other stuff...

The real power are those that are invested in what we need to live.. The corporate giants ConAgra has our food, the Oil Companies, our energy, how the speculators still can drive gas prices up!
and this out and out attack on Unions... 

Tear down what we have left to fight with...  our independence and freedom..

Yep John, if we have it your way, we are all but done...

Indeed!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 04, 2011, 07:22:37 PM

John.. when exactly is the crash coming?   See, I don't trust your way of thinking..  Is it going to happen while President Obama is in office this term.. or will it me in his next..

Let me guess, the only way to avoid it is electing the GOP... regardless. 

I guess it really sucks for you that the markets are coming back.. that Jobs are opening up, and its happening without one GOP bill to be seen...

The Stimulus is working.. not all of it has been used.  It could work further if we did not have some Republican Knot Heads trying to prove a point...  Sabotaging to cause failure regardless of how many people in their State would directly benefit from having jobs created.

Three months in office and not one talk of a Jobs bill..  and that's all they talked about when the dems were in control.. dealing with the Republicans that abused the filibuster, again to cause failure..

Even with all of that.. and your own post after post of gloom and doom... Major natural disasters, two wars, and a part of a coalition that much to some peoples observation.. we are not taking the lead role this time..

Yet through all of this, our economy IS rebounding!  The stimulus IS being paid back.. if the Bush Tax cuts could be elimenated, thats 800 billion annual revenue...

So with that information..

Lets look at how in better times.. President Bush and why he did the tax cuts in the first place..  The economy began to stagger and we were losing jobs and the ones that were being created were wal mart jobs..

Bush's tax refunds and cuts and corporate cuts and deregulation the entire way you look at things have been done.. It led to disaster!

So why would anyone want to listen to you...

I had started posting we were in serious trouble and I thought the bubble was going to burst back at the beginning of 2008..   You told me I was clueless..  The only people who were talking about the mortgage mess were me, French Fry, and Sue Lee...

11 Million Jobs lost is hard for any economy and it decreases revenue... double edged sword!

You defended your party's economics until the crash... and now even after the fact, you still swear by it... rather if its been regurgitated or not!

I am a market watcher.. have been since I was a teen...  You are someone that listens to someone else and that is why you think you know something that other people are just too "clueless" to understand...

If anything crashes our country.. it will be the demoralization of the American Worker... and making corporate entities our G-ds...  By using people like you to vote the way they want you to vote!..

They need the Government to keep the Status Quo.. and I know Democrats are not perfect.. but it IS the only other party, and it should be evident to most people with eyes, they are more independent thinkers in the Demorcratic Party... 

The Republicans were not always this collusive,  but they have turned the GOP into the giant brain that they better all agree or they will turn on those that don't... and ere goes the power and the greed...

That is how I see our country going down... to where people are only able to earn just enough.. that way you don't have time to worry about the other stuff...

The real power are those that are invested in what we need to live.. The corporate giants ConAgra has our food, the Oil Companies, our energy, how the speculators still can drive gas prices up!
and this out and out attack on Unions... 

Tear down what we have left to fight with...  our independence and freedom..

Yep John, if we have it your way, we are all but done...

Chicken:
Let's start by making a few corrections from you post.

* Eliminating Bush tax cuts (you didn't say, but I believe your talking
   raising rates for rich folks) would generate $ 800 billion in annual
   revenue you wrote. Actually the $ 800 billion figure was from Dems
   and it was over a 10 year period, not annually. Further, if the
   government took that much money out of the private sector it
   reduces the amount of capital that could be used to produce things.
* The "stimulous" money is not being paid back, it is the TARP money,
   used to bail out the banks, that is being paid back.
* Stimulous is working. When you borrow and spend $ 780 billion
   you're bound to create some jobs. Yet much of the money went to
   bail out state budgets, saving public sector jobs. Now that the
   money for the states has dried up the states are scrambling to
   remain solvent.
* Again on the stimulous. Dems were decrying how the $ 61 billion the
   Republicans want to cut from 2011 buget would cost 700K jobs.
   Well with that kind of math the stimulous, being 12 times larger,
   would have created 8.4 million jobs.
* You indicated you started posting in early 2008 and indicated you
   thought the bubble was going to burst and I called you clueless.
   Well, if so, I couldn't find any evidence of either.   
* You say I defended my parties economics until the crash. Some I
   did and some I didn't. Was against drug benefit. Not happy with
   deficits. Not happy with Bush's pathetic attempt to reform SS.
   But the crash, was not simply a matter of Republican economics.
   As we all know banks crashed due to housing collapse and both
   sides of the aisle were clueless. I don't remember Chris Dodd or
   Barney Frank, or a bunch of other Dems warning us of the looming
   crash that took place in Sept. 2008.

What I'm terrified about are our deficits, accumulated debt and huge unfunded debt we have coming. Now I'll take tax increases, cutting
corporate welfare, restrainng entitlements, cut public sector benefits
and pensions, duplicate programs, whole federal departments and on and on. If we don't get serious about spending the bond markets are going to take us down and it will be a lot worse than Sept. 2008,
it will be an absolute catastrophe
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 04, 2011, 10:08:30 PM
Had a little discussion with Chicken where she claimed to have forseen the looming bubble bust that occurred in Sept. 2008. Well, if true, she was one of the very few that were prescient of the danger.

However, when it comes to the ongoing deficits/debt situation we all know, or should know, there is no big mystery that if something isn't done soon to address this situation disaster looms. It's there, it is
undeniable, and if it happens, nobody will have the excuse that they didn't see it coming. Yet many in this forum seem perfectly content to
follow the kick the can down the road representatives.

But the key assumption that always enables putting off until tomorrow is the assumption that there will be a tomorrow
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 04, 2011, 11:10:00 PM
I couldn't have articulated it as such (housing bubble bursting, but I knew way back in 2004 thru '06 that something was WAY off with the mortgage companies.

In 2004, after my divorce, I wanted to get my ex's name off the mortgage and take out a loan to get a new roof. I was with Countrywide. I was worried because I knew it wouldn't easy, being a single woman and 1099 tax returns. He told me "no problem! How much do you want?" I also lived in a blue collar neighborhood and when I got my appraisal, I was pretty dumbfounded at how high they said my house was worth. It went up 35k from what I had bought it for in, get this, 1999. What they wanted me to do was take out a HUGE equity loan and re-mortgage for the appraisal. It was tempting, but I said no thanks, I was planning to sell within a year anyway. I re-mortgaged the original and took the ex's name off the title. I did sell in '06 and it did sell 25k more than I owed and I banked on the deal.

I was one of the lucky ones, or smart ones, because in '06 the person who bought my house foreclosed, I guess she couldn't keep up with the $900+ payments (remember it was an older blue collar neighborhood) and her taxes weren't included, so she got behind. She probably should have never been given this loan to begin with. They bank took it back, it sat empty for quite awhile. In '07 it sold for 20k LESS than what I had paid in 1999. My old neighbors told me that this woman had to file bankruptcy because the bank wanted the difference from her.

So here's what I was thinking way back then...the BANK was playing some kind of game, why were they giving loans to people with no income, no proof of income, or low income?? And of course this woman probably was THRILLED to finally achieve the American dream of home ownership, even though in the back of her head she SHOULD have known she couldn't afford it. It's really sad. And like I said, I'm glad I didn't get sucked into the fray, because had I made even one wrong decision, that could have been me.

So to conclude John, I don't know what TC was referencing, but if I saw something hinky w/ the banks/mortgage companies, I don't find it hard to believe that people smarter than me may have saw it coming.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 05, 2011, 03:45:04 PM
313:
While I didn't envision the steep crash the bursting of the housing
bubble caused, I too was aghast with the liar's loans, 100+ mortgages,
ads all over the TV for second mortgages so you can pay off credit cards, speculators flipping houses and on and on that I was seeing.
During that time I was building a business and not involved in the real estate chase so not focusing real hard first hand on ultimate consequeunces this real estate chaos could lead to.

Problem with Chicken was her analysis of what led up to the crash:

"Lets look at how in better times.. President Bush and why he did the tax cuts in the first place..  The economy began to stagger and we were losing jobs and the ones that were being created were wal mart jobs..

Bush's tax refunds and cuts and corporate cuts and deregulation the entire way you look at things have been done.. It led to disaster!"
---------------------------
It just misses the mark. Tax refunds and corporate cuts did not cause the crash. And there was plenty of deregulation of Wall Street that
happened under Clinton's watch. But the Wall Street collapse would not have happened had traditional lending standards been adhered to.
Good down payment and solid credit. For years Wall Street had offered mortgage backed secruities. But in past years these were made up of prime mortgages not sub-prime junk. Yet government allowed low standards, Fannie and Freddie bought up junk mortgages and sold to Wall Street etc. and there were all kinds of shenanigans and so many institutions involved.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 05, 2011, 03:55:36 PM
Yet government allowed low standards,
I agree, there should be more and tighter regulation on this and many other industries.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: old salt on April 05, 2011, 04:11:26 PM
Yet government allowed low standards, Fannie and Freddie bought up junk mortgages and sold to Wall Street etc. and there were all kinds of shenanigans and so many institutions involved.

Allowed low standards, or forced the banks to lower their standards? 

You know, that major victory for fairness thing.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 05, 2011, 04:50:24 PM
Allowed low standards, or forced the banks to lower their standards? 

You know, that major victory for fairness thing.

OS:
Correction accepted. I was moving a little too fast. Forced, not allowed, would have been the correct word. Maybe I'm so old that my mindset  is that government regulators, or the FED, should have as their  responsibility to ensure that banks and other lending institutions are making loans that are based on solid lending standards.

And OS, there is also that old "Law of Unintended Consequences"
thing.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 05, 2011, 09:47:02 PM
Well today Rep. Paul Ryan has come out with his plans to reduce long term spending. Already, Nancy Pelosi tells us the Ryan plan will
deprive 6 million homebound seniors of meals. The lines are drawn.

 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 05, 2011, 10:04:05 PM
The lines were drawn a long time ago, not just today. The congress is more and more just a joke. Problem is, the joke is on us!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 05, 2011, 10:06:17 PM
Also today Obama met with Dem and Republican leaders about resolving budget for 2011. The one Obama and his super majorities
never bothered to pass back in 2010. Bad politics to spell out the bad budget news, especially before an election. Now "he" says we need "adults" willing to sit down at the table and work it out. Absolutely priceless. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 05, 2011, 10:10:17 PM
The lines were drawn a long time ago, not just today. The congress is more and more just a joke. Problem is, the joke is on us!

Well Sammy, I'm not convinced the Republicans have the fortitude to
follow through on their proposal. What I am convinced of is the Dems, on their own, wouldn't do a damn thing.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 05, 2011, 10:23:09 PM
Of course the Repubs don't have the fortitude. Or the votes. Can you say POSTURING? Nobody in Congress really has the interests of the nation at heart. It's all about re-election. And, neither you nor I have the power. Money talks, and BS walks! Nothing ever changes.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 05, 2011, 10:36:09 PM
Of course the Repubs don't have the fortitude. Or the votes. Can you say POSTURING? Nobody in Congress really has the interests of the nation at heart. It's all about re-election. And, neither you nor I have the power. Money talks, and BS walks! Nothing ever changes.

Sammy:
All about posturing you say. Well would you say Republicans calling for these kind of cuts are traditionally following the pathway to grease their way to re-election?   
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 05, 2011, 10:46:10 PM
Yep! It's all about re-election. You cannot say with a straight face that is not the case.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 06, 2011, 01:13:26 AM
Well today Rep. Paul Ryan has come out with his plans to reduce long term spending. Already, Nancy Pelosi tells us the Ryan plan will
deprive 6 million homebound seniors of meals. The lines are drawn.

Starvation isn't a bug, it's a feature. Less old people = less Medicare and SS payments. Less Medicare and SS payments = less of a budget drain. Less of a budget drain = lower taxes for rich people (which the Ryan budget includes, of course, but reducing it from 35% to 25% just isn't enough, it should be closer to 1%, or perhaps -15%).

Lowering life expectancy and increasing the risk of death for everyone means that eventually the budget will fix itself by natural selection. If only we could find a way to have poor people directly power the rich's yachts, our problems would be solved forever.


Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 06, 2011, 01:43:58 AM
Can someone pass me that tasty platter of Soylent Green please?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 06, 2011, 04:31:22 AM
Well today Rep. Paul Ryan has come out with his plans to reduce long term spending. Already, Nancy Pelosi tells us the Ryan plan will
deprive 6 million homebound seniors of meals. The lines are drawn.

 
Have you looked at the budget proposal? Or do you need to pass it before you know what's in it?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 06, 2011, 04:32:58 AM
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/04/cbo-gop-budget-would-increase-debt-then-stick-it-to-medicare-patients.php?ref=fpi (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/04/cbo-gop-budget-would-increase-debt-then-stick-it-to-medicare-patients.php?ref=fpi)

The contents of the budget proposal can be found on the bottom of that link.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 06, 2011, 11:49:58 AM
That requires reading, which people don't do anymore.

It's a tax cut for the rich, a repeal of most Socialist programs, and it doesn't cut the elephant in the room, defense.

So thanks, budget hawks, for keeping us in the red for the next decade! Electing you guys sure did a lot.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Monrover on April 06, 2011, 12:54:42 PM
That requires reading, which people don't do anymore.

It's a tax cut for the rich, a repeal of most Socialist programs, and it doesn't cut the elephant in the room, defense.

So thanks, budget hawks, for keeping us in the red for the next decade! Electing you guys sure did a lot.

It's a proposed budget.

It's a starting point for discussion.

It requires reasoned discussion, which people don't engage in, anymore.

Let's see what rational people from the other side will propose as a budget.

Let's also remember that under the current spending plan, we are in the red for the next decade. Electing those guys sure did a lot also...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 06, 2011, 01:17:01 PM
Let's also remember that under the current spending plan, we are in the red for the next decade. Electing those guys sure did a lot also...

True, but I do recall that most of the "red tide" that came in 2010 was because of our budget being far too large and terrible. Six months later, and the best they have is gutting Medicare and shutting down half of our social services? How about we, I dunno, wind down our military?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 06, 2011, 06:05:35 PM
True, but I do recall that most of the "red tide" that came in 2010 was because of our budget being far too large and terrible. Six months later, and the best they have is gutting Medicare and shutting down half of our social services? How about we, I dunno, wind down our military?

LF:
I also think we need to take a hard look at defense spending. I also
think we're going to have to raise some taxes. I also think we need to
dig into the tax code and dump a ton of the carves outs various corps.
paid their lobbyists to make happen.

But you're all up in arms about so called gutting of social services.
Well let me tell you something. If we don't get spending under
control, in the not too distant future, we're really going to see
what gutting is really all about. And it won't be just social services either. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 06, 2011, 06:12:19 PM
I'm sorry, I'm going to have to get a stiff drink, because i just agreed with something Kopke said.

Yes, we do need to raise taxes, end tax loopholes, and REDUCE (instead of stare at) defense spending. If we closed all of our overseas bases, ended military hardware programs that are based on fighting standing armies (just in case the Soviets invade), and otherwise allowed the military to slowly draw down over time, we would save trillions, more than enough to pay for social programs.

This, sadly, won't happen though. Anyone cutting defense spending will be kicked out of town as a terrorist-loving softie, and anyone raising taxes on anyone, ever, will be kicked out for being a wasteful spender.

So, we're stuck in the loop of increasing spending AND lowering taxes, and have been for what, 30 years? I wonder how long that'll go on for?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 06, 2011, 06:19:42 PM
But... but... how will we police the world?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 06, 2011, 06:22:55 PM
But... but... how will we police the world?

We should have realized long ago that our US-based corporations are doing that just fine. We don't need tanks pointed at people so they can buy Coca Cola.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 06, 2011, 07:30:27 PM
I'm sorry, I'm going to have to get a stiff drink, because i just agreed with something Kopke said.

Yes, we do need to raise taxes, end tax loopholes, and REDUCE (instead of stare at) defense spending. If we closed all of our overseas bases, ended military hardware programs that are based on fighting standing armies (just in case the Soviets invade), and otherwise allowed the military to slowly draw down over time, we would save trillions, more than enough to pay for social programs.

This, sadly, won't happen though. Anyone cutting defense spending will be kicked out of town as a terrorist-loving softie, and anyone raising taxes on anyone, ever, will be kicked out for being a wasteful spender.

So, we're stuck in the loop of increasing spending AND lowering taxes, and have been for what, 30 years? I wonder how long that'll go on for?

LF:
I'm not optimistic either. We've got 78 million baby boomers going into SS/Medicare system in next ten years or so. I've read where
there are like 10,000 boomers "a day" retiring!!! Yet today we're
already running humongous deficits to cover the retirement benefits
of our existing retirees! What on earth are we going to do to accommodate millions and millions more retirees?

Then there is if we don't do something about ongoing huge deficits the world is going to demand much higher interest rates to fund our debt. The FED monetizing the debt (printing money) may be artificially keeping US interest rates low in the relatively short term, but at the ultimate cost of inflation, which is a tax on every American. Further, this FED monetizing, brings the day
that the world demands higher interest rates closer and closer.
And when the interest rates zoom so does government (taxpayer)
cost to manage the debt. Then we'll be talking some serious program gutting, and we won't have any choice in the matter.
 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 06, 2011, 07:58:41 PM
LF:
I'm not optimistic either. We've got 78 million baby boomers going into SS/Medicare system in next ten years or so. I've read where
there are like 10,000 boomers "a day" retiring!!! Yet today we're
already running humongous deficits to cover the retirement benefits
of our existing retirees! What on earth are we going to do to accommodate millions and millions more retirees?

Then there is if we don't do something about ongoing huge deficits the world is going to demand much higher interest rates to fund our debt. The FED monetizing the debt may be artificially keeping US
interest rates low, but at the ultimate cost of inflation, which is a
tax on every American. Further, this FED monetizing, brings the day
that the world demands higher interest rates closer and closer.
And when the interest rates zoom so does government (taxpayer)
cost to manage the debt. Then we'll be talking some serious program gutting, and we won't have any choice in the matter.
What kind of crappy word processor are you using?
While I may disagree with an extremely high percentage of everything you say...I doubt you've chosen to hit enter in mid-sentence as often as it appears.
It's not easy to follow such choppy structuring.....it must be a poor rendering issue.
Maybe it's not exactly on topic but I just had to tell you about the issue somewhere....it's like if you had a greenie sticking out of your nose.....sure I could let you walk around with it but I think you'd rather someone tell you.
Same thing with toilet paper trailing behind you....I'd be the one informing you.
Anyway....your take on SS is pure bunk
Quote
Social Security is “Not Going Broke”
Today on ABC’s Top Line, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) dismissed the talk of Social Security going broke as “total nonsense” and said, “Social security has a $2.6 trillion surplus. Could pay out every benefit owed for the next 26 years,” he said. “It is not going bankrupt and it is not going broke.”
[url]http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/03/sen-bernie-sanders-i-vt-social-security-is-not-going-broke-.html[/url] ([url]http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/03/sen-bernie-sanders-i-vt-social-security-is-not-going-broke-.html[/url])
 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 06, 2011, 08:12:09 PM
Anyway....your take on SS is pure bunk. Social Security is “Not Going Broke”
Today on ABC’s Top Line, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) dismissed the talk of Social Security going broke as “total nonsense” and said, “Social security has a $2.6 trillion surplus. Could pay out every benefit owed for the next 26 years,” he said. “It is not going bankrupt and it is not going broke.”

FF:
Here we go again with the SS Trust Fund having actual funds to cover SS for years. Well FF, when you're on SS, instead of a check, I hope instead they send you some of those special Treasuries Bonds the congress left behind when they spent the surpluses over the last 50 or so years.  And it would be priceless to look at the face of the grocery store check out when you hand her one to pay for your groceries.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 06, 2011, 09:11:09 PM
FF:
Here we go again with the SS Trust Fund having actual funds to cover SS for years. Well FF, when you're on SS, instead of a check, I hope instead they send you some of those special Treasuries Bonds the congress left behind when they spent the surpluses over the last 50 or so years.  And it would be priceless to look at the face of the grocery store check out when you hand her one to pay for your groceries.
So because GW Bush spent all the money funding the war and lining the pockets of his war mongering "friends", we are now supposed to kick grandma to the curb and say "tough cookies".

Got it.

Who cares about all the money that people have already paid in? Screw 'em!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 06, 2011, 09:23:26 PM
So because GW Bush spent all the money funding the war and lining the pockets of his war mongering "friends", we are now supposed to kick grandma to the curb and say "tough cookies".

Who cares about all the money that people have already paid in? Screw 'em! /quote]

FB:
Complete and total nonsense and you damn well know it! Actually stealing the SS supluses started with LBJ to fund the Vietnam War. From there the Congress got hooked on the idea and has sucked up every surplus since then.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 06, 2011, 09:30:00 PM
So in essence....FICA is enough to cover the SS obligations but not enough to cover the Bush tax-cut giveaways to the rich and the military interventions?

Looks like the choice is simple.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 06, 2011, 09:31:15 PM
LF:
I'm not optimistic either. We've got 78 million baby boomers going into SS/Medicare system in next ten years or so. I've read where
there are like 10,000 boomers "a day" retiring!!! Yet today we're
already running humongous deficits to cover the retirement benefits
of our existing retirees! What on earth are we going to do to accommodate millions and millions more retirees?

Then there is if we don't do something about ongoing huge deficits the world is going to demand much higher interest rates to fund our debt. The FED monetizing the debt (printing money) may be artificially keeping US interest rates low in the relatively short term, but at the ultimate cost of inflation, which is a tax on every American. Further, this FED monetizing, brings the day
that the world demands higher interest rates closer and closer.
And when the interest rates zoom so does government (taxpayer)
cost to manage the debt. Then we'll be talking some serious program gutting, and we won't have any choice in the matter.
 


Worse yet, I saw on ABC (I think it was ABC) news last night that 41% have saved little or nothing for retirement, thinking that SS would be enough.  Now 50%+ of the boomers are staying longer in their jobs so they can afford to retire 10 years late.  Poor planning by the boomer generation, and tight financial situations are really putting the squuze on the younger workers... no jobs.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 06, 2011, 09:33:51 PM
So in essence....FICA is enough to cover the SS obligations but not enough to cover the Bush tax-cut giveaways to the rich and the military interventions?

Looks like the choice is simple.

Also Fry, there should be no cap on SS contributions.  If you make $20M a year you should pay SS and Medicare taxes the whole way.  If you never need it then great, but the whole idea was to be more of an insurance policy than a means of income anyway right?

That combined with isolating the funds so they cannot go into general spending would go a long way in solving that problem.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 06, 2011, 09:36:03 PM
Worse yet, I saw on ABC (I think it was ABC) news last night that 41% have saved little or nothing for retirement, thinking that SS would be enough.  Now 50%+ of the boomers are staying longer in their jobs so they can afford to retire 10 years late.  Poor planning by the boomer generation, and tight financial situations are really putting the squuze on the younger workers... no jobs.
Sounds like you're blaming the lack of jobs on poor planning by the working people. I contend that NAFTA created that giant sucking sound Ross Perot warned us about.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 06, 2011, 09:38:51 PM
Sounds like you're blaming the lack of jobs on poor planning by the working people. I contend that NAFTA created that giant sucking sound Ross Perot warned us about.

No I contend that POOR financial planning as a result of banking on a false hope that there would always money for them regardless is PART of the cause of the problem.  It is a multiple cause problem Fry.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 06, 2011, 09:45:06 PM
No I contend that POOR financial planning as a result of banking on a false hope that there would always money for them regardless is PART of the cause of the problem.  It is a multiple cause problem Fry.
Workers contributed to the program....expecting to partake is normal.
I do not share the doomsday predictions of your right-wing brethren.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 06, 2011, 09:45:56 PM
So in essence....FICA is enough to cover the SS obligations but not enough to cover the Bush tax-cut giveaways to the rich and the military interventions?

Looks like the choice is simple.

FF:
Well geez FF, while your point is total nonsense partisan BS, it wasn't President Bush that agreed to extend the "Bush tax-cut giveaways" to the rich in Dec. 2010 was it? And to add additional insult to your false post I believe FICA revenue in 2010 fell short of SS payouts by something like $ 37 billion.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 06, 2011, 09:46:49 PM
Maybe we should start looking at and talking about the problem of SS in a new way?

(From the middle of the article, "The Fake Social Security Solvency Crisis Is Congress's Fault!"
By Joe Firestone)


It is more Washington kabuki politics at its finest.


Selise has this to say in her post on why this is kabuki:

Q: Why is there even a debate about “fixing” Social Security when it’s not broken?

A: Because the focus of the debate is on problems that are unreal.

Focusing on unreal problems makes no sense. Unreal problems are NOT REAL!

Let me explain what I mean here by real as opposed to unreal problems with an example of each:

Unreal = “We can’t afford to Social Security because the Trustee’s report says that costs will exceed payroll tax receipts”

Real = “We can’t produce the goods and services needed by our nation’s seniors to keep them fed and housed.”

The unreal problem is about the availability of dollars. Our federal government is the monopoly issuer of the nation’s currency. We’ve been off the gold standard for almost 40 years and we have floating exchange rates. Therefore, the availability of dollars is a political issue. Tax revenue is not required, borrowing is not required — unless Congress chooses to impose those constraints.

A main reason why this particular instance of kabuki politics still exists is because so-called “progressives,” are unwilling to give up the idea that to keep Social Security safe it is essential that people “pay into it,” so that the opponents of Social Security won't dare say that it's a welfare program paying benefits to people that they are not entitled to. Guess what? The problem with this theory is that the opponents do dare say it, and have been saying it for many years through “propaganda” that has made “entitlement” a dirty word.

They don't care whether people have made FICA contributions or not. For them the only issue is whether the Government “can afford” to pay for SS retirement benefits, not whether people have earned and paid for them, and so “deserve their benefits.” And they say the Government can't afford it because they're both busily cutting away at Government tax revenues and also falsely claiming that Government money is limited by a non-existent solvency risk.

Giving up the argument that people have paid into Social Security and so are entitled to it, is what progressives fear. But, nevertheless, since that argument is clearly not working, and also because that argument is bought only at the price of maintaining a very regressive tax on working people, they badly need to give it up in favor of an argument that all Americans, whatever their station, contribute something to the development of American society over time, often in ways that can't easily be measured by the money they've made, or the visible things they've accomplished; and that because of these contributions and their American citizenship, each is owed a decent and dignified old age by the nation in the form of Social Security and affordable health insurance (now provided by Medicare).

http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2011/04/fake-social-security-solvency-crisis-is.html (http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2011/04/fake-social-security-solvency-crisis-is.html)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 06, 2011, 09:50:31 PM
FF:
Well geez FF, while your point is total nonsense partisan BS, it wasn't President Bush that agreed to extend the "Bush tax-cut giveaways" to the rich in Dec. 2010 was it? And to add additional insult to your false post I believe FICA revenue in 2010 fell short of SS payouts by something like $ 37 billion.

I wonder how much of that shortfall was due to the high unemployment? Not as many paying as as was originally projected?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 06, 2011, 09:55:12 PM
Ah…. my fellow Americans, be very, very, afraid of the terrible Social Security crisis that will sink us as a nation. According to Government projections, we won’t be able to pay full Social Security benefits, in 2037 and beyond, unless we cut benefits now, because the Social Security “Trust Fund” will be short of money.
So, say Paul Ryan, Peter Peterson and his minions, Mike Pence, Alice Rivlin, Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson, and also many other deficit hawks. In reply, the most liberal of the deficit doves say that even though there will be a solvency crisis in 2037; it’s really nothing to worry about because all we have to do to end it is to lift “the cap” on FICA contributions entirely, so that wealthier income earners are paying the same rate on their total earnings, as workers whose wages or salaries are below $106,800 per year.

So, both the hawks and the doves agree that there is “a solvency crisis;” they only disagree about what to do about it. However, the SS solvency crisis is a big fake, like so many of the issues that arise in Washington. It is a fake because the crisis is not due to powerful economic forces that no one can do anything about, and that no one has control over; but rather is due to a choice Congress made when they wrote the original Social Security Act; namely that it would be paid for by raising revenues to fund it through FICA contributions and placing those in a “trust fund,” rather than by paying for it from general revenues. All that Congress has to do to end the crisis is to decide sometime between now and 2037, to pay for SS benefits automatically, out of general revenues, in the same way it pays for that part of the Social Security program called Supplementary Medical Insurance (SMI). End of problem. End of story.

Here’s a link to a post by selise featuring a youtube clip of Stephanie Kelton at last year’s Fiscal Sustainability Tech-In Counter-Conference explaining why this simple move by Congress solves the problem. Audios, Videos, presentations, and transcripts from the Conference which provides the definitive counter-narrative to the deficit hysteria currently rending our nation is here. Professor Kelton summarizes her argument here.
    “Funding Social Security is always and everywhere a political choice. The strongest evidence of this comes directly from the 2009 Annual Report of the Trustees. In that report, they predict gloom and doom for Social Security because “there is no provision in current law that would enable full payment of benefits, once the Trust Funds are exhausted”.

    In contrast, the Supplementary Medical Insurance (SMI) Trust Funds are “both projected to remain adequately financed into the indefinite future because current law automatically provides financing each year to meet next year’s expected costs.”

    It is that simple. The former is in ‘trouble’ because the government isn’t committed to making the payments, and the latter gets a clean bill of health because the government will always make the payments.”
http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/04/05/the-fake-social-security-solvency-crisis-is-congresss-fault/ (http://my.firedoglake.com/letsgetitdone/2011/04/05/the-fake-social-security-solvency-crisis-is-congresss-fault/)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 06, 2011, 09:55:59 PM
Workers contributed to the program....expecting to partake is normal.
I do not share the doomsday predictions of your right-wing brethren.

While I am not a big fan of current fiscal policy, I hardly believe the sky is falling.  Should Obama lose in 2012 I predict the screams of "the dollar being on the verge of collapse" will likely reduce to a dull murmur.

Lets not forget this wasn't really a problem until Obama got elected, and though he has done it to a much greater degree, the Republican party had no problem with the nonsensical spending that the Bush Administration was conducting.  Did some speak out?  Sure, but not like they are since Obama got elected.  I, probably like you find it ironic that there was no need for a Tea Party or Conservative Caucai (sp) until a Democrat was in the White House.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 06, 2011, 10:01:40 PM

So, say Paul Ryan, Peter Peterson and his minions, Mike Pence, Alice Rivlin, Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson, and also many other deficit hawks.


Actually, Rivlin came out against Ryan's plan.

"Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) touted the help of former Clinton adviser Alice Rivlin — “a great, proud Democrat” — in promoting a key Medicare provision in his budget proposal Tuesday.
The only problem? Rivlin said she told the Republican she doesn’t support the final version of the measure he wrote into his budget — a provision Ryan referred to generally as the “Ryan-Rivlin” plan when rolling out his sweeping economic blueprint.

“We talked fairly recently and I said, ‘You know, I can’t support the version that you have in the budget,” Rivlin said in an interview with POLITICO. “I don’t actually support the form in which he put it in the budget.”

Rivlin identified two key problems with Ryan's proposal.

First, Ryan's proposal would eliminate Medicare, forcing all seniors to purchase subsidized private insurance. Rivlin favors making the subsidized private insurance an option, but would allow seniors to continue in the traditional Medicare program if they so choose.

Second, Ryan's proposal wouldn't keep up with the rising cost of health care. Rivlin says that would push "too much of the cost onto the beneficiaries."

Given those fundamental differences, the fact that this was Ryan's response to Politico's story is not exactly a shock:

Ryan’s office did not return multiple attempts for comment Tuesday.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/06/964045/-Rivlin:-I-dont-support-Ryans-Medicare-repeal-plan,-and-I-told-him-so (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/06/964045/-Rivlin:-I-dont-support-Ryans-Medicare-repeal-plan,-and-I-told-him-so)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 06, 2011, 10:05:44 PM
While I am not a big fan of current fiscal policy, I hardly believe the sky is falling.  Should Obama lose in 2012 I predict the screams of "the dollar being on the verge of collapse" will likely reduce to a dull murmur.

Lets not forget this wasn't really a problem until Obama got elected, and though he has done it to a much greater degree, the Republican party had no problem with the nonsensical spending that the Bush Administration was conducting.  Did some speak out?  Sure, but not like they are since Obama got elected.  I, probably like you find it ironic that there was no need for a Tea Party or Conservative Caucai (sp) until a Democrat was in the White House.

I have to agree jbs. With so many Tea Party members coming right out and stating they just want to see Obama fail, it's pretty easy to call shenanigan's.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 06, 2011, 10:18:13 PM
Also Fry, there should be no cap on SS contributions.  If you make $20M a year you should pay SS and Medicare taxes the whole way.  If you never need it then great, but the whole idea was to be more of an insurance policy than a means of income anyway right?

That combined with isolating the funds so they cannot go into general spending would go a long way in solving that problem.

JBS:

I have to disagree with your saying "the whole idea was to be more of an insurance policy than a means of income anyway right?" I always believed the idea was for SS to subsidize retirement income, not be ones sole source of retirement income. I also have a problem with the insurance policy statement. If a single person dies on his 65th birthday SS pays $ 250 to bury him. That's it. Not a dime goes to nephews
or nieces or any other beneficiary like a death benefit from an insurance policy would.

Further, if you charge that person making $ 20 million SS taxes on every dime of their income, aren't you turning SS into a welfare program? Or are you going to calculate the SS benefits for that
person paying SS on $ 20 million per to reflect what they paid in like an insurance annuity policy would?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 06, 2011, 10:23:09 PM
While I am not a big fan of current fiscal policy, I hardly believe the sky is falling.  Should Obama lose in 2012 I predict the screams of "the dollar being on the verge of collapse" will likely reduce to a dull murmur.

Lets not forget this wasn't really a problem until Obama got elected, and though he has done it to a much greater degree, the Republican party had no problem with the nonsensical spending that the Bush Administration was conducting.  Did some speak out?  Sure, but not like they are since Obama got elected.  I, probably like you find it ironic that there was no need for a Tea Party or Conservative Caucai (sp) until a Democrat was in the White House.
You have a conveniently short memory as to causation of the mess in the first place.
Extraordinary measures had to be taken to keep the country from imploding.

The right mobilized before Obama was sworn in...they knew the very word "Republican" would be shunned for the damage they've done....locking them out of the political process unless their smear campaign made the Dems appear worse than them.

That's why the fake astro turf groups appeared like...."Conservatives" and the "Tea Party"......but of course race attracted some members to join in the attack.

Look, those on the right are as wrong today as they've always been....while they've managed to convince some brainless dolts to join......sort of like Gumby....bendable in any direction one wants.....they're still only good for one thing....to laugh at 'em
(http://www.funcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/gumby2.jpg)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 06, 2011, 10:28:02 PM
While I am not a big fan of current fiscal policy, I hardly believe the sky is falling.  Should Obama lose in 2012 I predict the screams of "the dollar being on the verge of collapse" will likely reduce to a dull murmur.

Lets not forget this wasn't really a problem until Obama got elected, and though he has done it to a much greater degree, the Republican party had no problem with the nonsensical spending that the Bush Administration was conducting.  Did some speak out?  Sure, but not like they are since Obama got elected.  I, probably like you find it ironic that there was no need for a Tea Party or Conservative Caucai (sp) until a Democrat was in the White House.

JBS:
You hardly believe the sky is falling? Now I'm not going to put at Obama's doorstep all the blame for trillion plus deficits, but this country is in the midst of a big financial crisis. Frankly, I was suprised to see you seem to pooh pooh the situation.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 06, 2011, 10:39:54 PM
JBS:

I have to disagree with your saying "the whole idea was to be more of an insurance policy than a means of income anyway right?" I always believed the idea was for SS to subsidize retirement income, not be ones sole source of retirement income. I also have a problem with the insurance policy statement. If a single person dies on his 65th birthday SS pays $ 250 to bury him. That's it. Not a dime goes to nephews
or nieces or any other beneficiary like a death benefit from an insurance policy would.

Further, if you charge that person making $ 20 million SS taxes on every dime of their income, aren't you turning SS into a welfare program? Or are you going to calculate the SS benefits for that
person paying SS on $ 20 million per to reflect what they paid in like an insurance annuity policy would?

You even admit I said more of an insurance policy... not AN INSURANCE POLICY.  The SS death benefit is what it is, you don't like it write you Congressman, but there is no reason that a niece or a nephew should be entitled to a dime of SS just because someone in the bloodline paid in.

What about the guy who hangs on until he's 113?  Do you want to just stop paying SS?  Just remember SS is kinda like the stock market... there is a set number of $$$ in play, so everytime there is a transaction someone makes money and someone loses money.  If you pay in and die early, well... sorry!  If you pay in and live forever then good for you.

So in that essance yes John, it is an insurance policy, but more like an inverted term life policy.  The problem is people who have alot of money don't want to pay in unless it is more like a whole life policy.  SS was set up to pay out IF you need it to and every person in this Nation has an equal possibility to NEED SS, just not everyone will.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 06, 2011, 10:44:11 PM
JBS:
You hardly believe the sky is falling? Now I'm not going to put at Obama's doorstep all the blame for trillion plus deficits, but this country is in the midst of a big financial crisis. Frankly, I was suprised to see you seem to pooh pooh the situation.


I'm not pooh poohing anything but it has been worse before.  The appearance of opportunity is what is driving the "sky is falling" cries.  The opportunity to scare those who don't pay attention to all the information presented, and just what the spinsters are feeding them.  Irresponsible spending DID not start in the last year and a half, only the vocal dissent to it.  As a caucus member you should be screaming for a Clinton Republican.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 06, 2011, 10:49:12 PM
You have a conveniently short memory as to causation of the mess in the first place.
Extraordinary measures had to be taken to keep the country from imploding.

The right mobilized before Obama was sworn in...they knew the very word "Republican" would be shunned for the damage they've done....locking them out of the political process unless their smear campaign made the Dems appear worse than them.

That's why the fake astro turf groups appeared like...."Conservatives" and the "Tea Party"......but of course race attracted some members to join in the attack.

Look, those on the right are as wrong today as they've always been....while they've managed to convince some brainless dolts to join......sort of like Gumby....bendable in any direction one wants.....they're still only good for one thing....to laugh at 'em
([url]http://www.funcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/gumby2.jpg[/url])



Alot of things happened to cause the mess Fry and they didn't start will W.  The free money the banks spread around in the form of credit cards were a big start.  Use of credit cards opened up SOME cash flow in moderate income households and the banks again swooped in and lowered requirements to buy a home, of course they did this with the Federal Government either turning a blind eye or being a willing accomplice (folks can and WILL argue either side in a compelling manner), at a time where everyone was convinced their overvalued properties were still undervalued. 

To stand and argue that the problem is uni-partisan, is irresponsible.

The guilty banks should have been forced to fail for their irresponsbile behavior not been bailed out.  Bailed out on top of being paid through mortgage default insurance after the fact.  Ever wonder why a bank is OK with selling a house for $10K now Fry?  BTW they aren't losing money selling them that cheap... well on paper they are so that way they can avoid paying taxes and claim a loss the week before they give multi-million dollar bonuses.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 06, 2011, 11:17:42 PM
You even admit I said more of an insurance policy... not AN INSURANCE POLICY.  The SS death benefit is what it is, you don't like it write you Congressman, but there is no reason that a niece or a nephew should be entitled to a dime of SS just because someone in the bloodline paid in.

What about the guy who hangs on until he's 113?  Do you want to just stop paying SS?  Just remember SS is kinda like the stock market... there is a set number of $$$ in play, so everytime there is a transaction someone makes money and someone loses money.  If you pay in and die early, well... sorry!  If you pay in and live forever then good for you.

So in that essance yes John, it is an insurance policy, but more like an inverted term life policy.  The problem is people who have alot of money don't want to pay in unless it is more like a whole life policy.  SS was set up to pay out IF you need it to and every person in this Nation has an equal possibility to NEED SS, just not everyone will.

JBS:
SS wasn't set up to pay out if you need it to, it pays out. My welfare
comment is based on this. You take that guy making $ 20 mil per year and make him pay SS (15%) on all of it, or $ 300K per year. Then when he retires he gets maybe $ 1600 per month in benefits just like the guy paying 15% on $ 80,000 per year in income? If so, that's welfare.

Further, at this point, an average 20 something is going to receive less in SS than he or she paid in. I think I read where a person retiring in 1982, in 3 years, would have recovered everything they paid into SS during their working life. SS is, and always has been, a ponzi scheme. Disagree? Ok. Let me ask you this. If you were a 20 something today, for the next 40 years would you rather put your FICA money in today's SS system, or would you rather put that same money into a State Farm retirement annuity with a low cost high value term life insurance policy attached?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 06, 2011, 11:48:43 PM
I'm not pooh poohing anything but it has been worse before.  The appearance of opportunity is what is driving the "sky is falling" cries.  The opportunity to scare those who don't pay attention to all the information presented, and just what the spinsters are feeding them.  Irresponsible spending DID not start in the last year and a half, only the vocal dissent to it.  As a caucus member you should be screaming for a Clinton Republican.

JBS:
I disagree. I don't believe it has been worse before. Obviously during the Depression things were really grim. But we didn't have anything near the national debt we do today. Heck the interest payments on our debt today are probably more (adjusted for inflation) than the whole federal budget back them. We weren't paying out 60% of our budget in entitlements. Private debt was a small fraction of what it is today. What national debt we did have we didn't owe to foreigners like we do today. Most families were families with a Mom and a Dad. 50% or so of all marriages didn't end in divorce and having an out of wedlock baby was not something to be shrugged off or subsidized by the government. Oh I know some people suffered terribly because we didn't have the social safety nets we do today. Then again our country was not anywhere near as close to going over a financial cliff as we are today.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 07, 2011, 02:50:06 AM
Further, at this point, an average 20 something is going to receive less in SS than he or she paid in.

Yes, something along the lines of 100% less. My generation will likely die of hunger and/or preventable diseases in droves when we reach our sixties, and our children will most likely have a severely shortened life expectancy. Isn't America great?

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 07, 2011, 04:47:26 AM
JBS:
I disagree. I don't believe it has been worse before. Obviously during the Depression things were really grim. But we didn't have anything near the national debt we do today. Heck the interest payments on our debt today are probably more (adjusted for inflation) than the whole federal budget back them. We weren't paying out 60% of our budget in entitlements. Private debt was a small fraction of what it is today. What national debt we did have we didn't owe to foreigners like we do today. Most families were families with a Mom and a Dad. 50% or so of all marriages didn't end in divorce and having an out of wedlock baby was not something to be shrugged off or subsidized by the government. Oh I know some people suffered terribly because we didn't have the social safety nets we do today. Then again our country was not anywhere near as close to going over a financial cliff as we are today.
If you are talking debt to GDP it was worse during WWII.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on April 07, 2011, 10:23:44 AM


I wanna know who pays 15% in Social Security each week?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Monrover on April 07, 2011, 11:35:27 AM

I wanna know who pays 15% in Social Security each week?


Technically, all who have earned income subject to SS taxes pay that rate.

A portion paid by the individual and a portion paid by the employer.

In reality, those who are self-employed pay that rate in total.

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html (http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html)


Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 07, 2011, 11:43:36 AM
The 2011 rate for Social Security is 6.2% for employers, and4.2% for employees.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 07, 2011, 11:50:07 AM
How the tax is calculated

Overview

The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities states that three-quarters of taxpayers pay more in payroll taxes than they do in income taxes.[5] The FICA tax is considered a regressive tax on income (with no standard deduction or personal exemption deduction) and is imposed (for the years 2009 and 2010) only on the first $106,800 of gross wages. The tax is not imposed on investment income (such as interest and dividends).


"Regular" employees (most wage-earners)

For 2008, the employee's share of the Social Security portion of the tax is 6.2%[6] of gross compensation up to a limit of $102,000 of compensation (resulting in a maximum of $6,324.00 in tax). For 2009 and 2010, the employee's share is 6.2% of gross compensation up to a limit of $106,800 of compensation (resulting in a maximum Social Security tax of $6,621.60).[7] This limit, known as the Social Security Wage Base, goes up each year based on average national wages and, in general, at a faster rate than the Consumer Price Index (CPI-U). For 2011, the employee's share is 4.2% of gross compensation up to a limit of $106,800.[8] The employee's share of the Medicare portion is 1.45% of wages, with no limit on the amount of wage subject to the Medicare tax.[6]

The employer is also liable for separate 6.2% and 1.45% Social Security and Medicare taxes, respectively,[9] making the total Social Security tax 12.4%, and the total Medicare tax 2.9%, of wages. (Self-employed people are responsible for the entire FICA percentage of 15.3% (= 12.4% + 2.9%), since they are in a sense both the employer and the employed; however, see the section on self-employed people for more details.)

If a worker starts a new job halfway through the year and has already earned the wage base limit for Social Security purposes, the new employer is not allowed to stop withholding until the wage base limit has been earned with the new employer. There are some limited cases, such as a successor-predecessor transfer, in which the payments that have already been withheld can be counted toward the year-to-date total.

If a worker has overpaid toward Social Security by having more than one job or by having switched jobs during the year, that worker can file a request to have that overpayment counted as tax paid when he or she files a Federal income tax return. If the taxpayer is due a refund, then the FICA overpayment becomes part or all of the refund.


Self-employed people

A tax similar to the FICA tax is imposed on the earnings of self-employed individuals, such as independent contractors and members of a partnership. This tax is imposed not by the Federal Insurance Contributions Act but instead by the Self-Employment Contributions Act of 1954, which is codified as Chapter 2 of Subtitle A of the Internal Revenue Code, 26 U.S.C. § 1401 through 26 U.S.C. § 1403 (the "SE Tax Act"). Under the SE Tax Act, self-employed people are responsible for the entire percentage of 15.3% (= 12.4% [Soc. Sec.] + 2.9% [Medicare]); however, the 15.3% multiplier is applied to 92.35% of the business's net earnings from self-employment, rather than 100% of the gross earnings; the difference, 7.65%, is half of the 15.3%, and makes the calculation fair in comparison to that of regular (non-self-employed) employees. It does this by adjusting for the fact that employees' 7.65% share of their SE tax is multiplied against a number (their gross income) that does not include the putative "employer's half" of the self-employment tax. In other words, it makes the calculation fair because employees don't get taxed on their employers' contribution of the second half of FICA, therefore self-employed people shouldn't get taxed on the second half of the self-employment tax. Similarly, self-employed people also deduct half of their self-employment tax (schedule SE) from their gross income on the way to arriving at their adjusted gross income (AGI). This levels the amount paid by self-employed persons in comparison to regular employees, who don't pay general income tax on their employers' contribution of the second half of FICA, just as they didn't pay FICA tax on it either.[10][11]

These calculations are made on Schedule SE: Self-Employment Tax, although that is not readily apparent to novice self-employed taxpayers, owing to the schedule's rather opaque name, which makes it sound like it is part of the general federal income tax. Some taxpayers have complained that Schedule SE's title should be changed to something such as "Self-Employment FICA Tax", so that its separateness from the general income tax is apparent,[12] perhaps not realizing that the SE tax is not imposed by the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) at all, and that neither SE taxes nor FICA taxes are "income taxes" imposed under Chapter 1 of the Internal Revenue Code.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Insurance_Contributions_Act_tax#How_the_tax_is_calculated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Insurance_Contributions_Act_tax#How_the_tax_is_calculated)

Not sure why righties desire a return to the depression era.
NAFTA and the rest of the GOP efforts are certainly trying to recreate those "good" old days.
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5Uvquw9yxM1nVu3IMeYnQfJF5AnME6YFVkgFnU_b1kr7k4gnYEQ) (http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQh-iHm-4sXUS7_AnP6KAg2Cf1t0gCQtU46wEnsaB28fitFR9MJ1A)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on April 07, 2011, 06:39:14 PM

I wanna know who pays 15% in Social Security each week?

I do.   :'(

Actually, SS and Medicare total is over 15%.

Income tax is up for 2011 too.  I'm forced to withhold more from all of my employee's checks each week, and I'm sending it to the Feds.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on April 07, 2011, 07:40:22 PM


Thats because you are filing 1099's and are self employed.. John makes it sound as if everyone is paying 15% which simply isn't true..

and you don't file 1099's weekly.. do you! 

The current FICA is 6.20 for Social Security and 1.45 for Medicare...  that is the max unless you are self employed..

You can always do what I did... Incorporate yourself and pay yourself a Salary... there are many ways you can set that up... get a good accountant!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 07, 2011, 07:59:58 PM
While I am not a big fan of current fiscal policy, I hardly believe the sky is falling.  Should Obama lose in 2012 I predict the screams of "the dollar being on the verge of collapse" will likely reduce to a dull murmur.

Lets not forget this wasn't really a problem until Obama got elected, and though he has done it to a much greater degree, the Republican party had no problem with the nonsensical spending that the Bush Administration was conducting.  Did some speak out?  Sure, but not like they are since Obama got elected.  I, probably like you find it ironic that there was no need for a Tea Party or Conservative Caucai (sp) until a Democrat was in the White House.

JBS:
You say you hardly believe the sky is falling. OK. Well I believe the FED QE2 spent $ 600 billion buying 70% of Treasuries sold between Jan.
2011 and this coming June. Plan was to keep bond interest rates down.
So what happens come July with no QE? ? Do you expect the folks here and the rest of the world to buy up treasuries to fund the deficit for the rest of this year? And then next years trillion plus deficit? Japan won't be. If anything they be redeeming their treasuries not rolling them over. The world is in chaos. European Union, broke.
Saudi's pissed at Obama for throwing Mubarek under the bus and now making overtures to China and Russia. PIMCO, a huge bond mutual fund has dumped all their U.S. Treasures.

I think one or a combination of two things are going to happen. With-out QE3 we are going to find it difficult to find entities to fund our deficits unless we raise interest rates. If we do that interest on the debt explodes and the deficit gets bigger. If the FED comes in with QE3, QE4 etc. (printing money to fund deficits) inflation takes off.

Will we cut deficits enough to regain the confidence of the world that we're putting our fiscal house in order? Look at the reaction to Paul Ryan's plan. The sky may not be falling "today", but it is being held up with a house built of of cards.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on April 07, 2011, 08:49:56 PM
Yes, something along the lines of 100% less. My generation will likely die of hunger and/or preventable diseases in droves when we reach our sixties, and our children will most likely have a severely shortened life expectancy. Isn't America great?



Yep, and in our collective ignorance, and despite all the warnings from those that have "been there, done that, and killed for it" we chose to ask for it.

Money for nothing, and the chicks for free!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on April 07, 2011, 08:52:42 PM

I wanna know who pays 15% in Social Security each week?

Where is that in the Constitution?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on April 07, 2011, 08:53:48 PM
Technically, all who have earned income subject to SS taxes pay that rate.

A portion paid by the individual and a portion paid by the employer.

In reality, those who are self-employed pay that rate in total.

[url]http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html[/url] ([url]http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html[/url])





How's that "Great Society" thing working out?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on April 07, 2011, 09:01:54 PM
How the tax is calculated

Overview

NAFTA was created for your benefit and those of our fellow bodies in the Global Community.

How's that working out for you?

See, once you and all of us here in America are as equally poor as the rest of the Global Community we will all be EQUAL.

I figgerd out a long time ago our owners have NO INTEREST in raising the rest of the world to former American standards. It's a lot easier to bring us down to theirs!
Bringing up the rest of the world to our standard of living is NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF OUR OWNERS!

Get it?

We ain't in the CLUB!
The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities states that three-quarters of taxpayers pay more in payroll taxes than they do in income taxes.[5] The FICA tax is considered a regressive tax on income (with no standard deduction or personal exemption deduction) and is imposed (for the years 2009 and 2010) only on the first $106,800 of gross wages. The tax is not imposed on investment income (such as interest and dividends).


"Regular" employees (most wage-earners)

For 2008, the employee's share of the Social Security portion of the tax is 6.2%[6] of gross compensation up to a limit of $102,000 of compensation (resulting in a maximum of $6,324.00 in tax). For 2009 and 2010, the employee's share is 6.2% of gross compensation up to a limit of $106,800 of compensation (resulting in a maximum Social Security tax of $6,621.60).[7] This limit, known as the Social Security Wage Base, goes up each year based on average national wages and, in general, at a faster rate than the Consumer Price Index (CPI-U). For 2011, the employee's share is 4.2% of gross compensation up to a limit of $106,800.[8] The employee's share of the Medicare portion is 1.45% of wages, with no limit on the amount of wage subject to the Medicare tax.[6]

The employer is also liable for separate 6.2% and 1.45% Social Security and Medicare taxes, respectively,[9] making the total Social Security tax 12.4%, and the total Medicare tax 2.9%, of wages. (Self-employed people are responsible for the entire FICA percentage of 15.3% (= 12.4% + 2.9%), since they are in a sense both the employer and the employed; however, see the section on self-employed people for more details.)

If a worker starts a new job halfway through the year and has already earned the wage base limit for Social Security purposes, the new employer is not allowed to stop withholding until the wage base limit has been earned with the new employer. There are some limited cases, such as a successor-predecessor transfer, in which the payments that have already been withheld can be counted toward the year-to-date total.

If a worker has overpaid toward Social Security by having more than one job or by having switched jobs during the year, that worker can file a request to have that overpayment counted as tax paid when he or she files a Federal income tax return. If the taxpayer is due a refund, then the FICA overpayment becomes part or all of the refund.


Self-employed people

A tax similar to the FICA tax is imposed on the earnings of self-employed individuals, such as independent contractors and members of a partnership. This tax is imposed not by the Federal Insurance Contributions Act but instead by the Self-Employment Contributions Act of 1954, which is codified as Chapter 2 of Subtitle A of the Internal Revenue Code, 26 U.S.C. § 1401 through 26 U.S.C. § 1403 (the "SE Tax Act"). Under the SE Tax Act, self-employed people are responsible for the entire percentage of 15.3% (= 12.4% [Soc. Sec.] + 2.9% [Medicare]); however, the 15.3% multiplier is applied to 92.35% of the business's net earnings from self-employment, rather than 100% of the gross earnings; the difference, 7.65%, is half of the 15.3%, and makes the calculation fair in comparison to that of regular (non-self-employed) employees. It does this by adjusting for the fact that employees' 7.65% share of their SE tax is multiplied against a number (their gross income) that does not include the putative "employer's half" of the self-employment tax. In other words, it makes the calculation fair because employees don't get taxed on their employers' contribution of the second half of FICA, therefore self-employed people shouldn't get taxed on the second half of the self-employment tax. Similarly, self-employed people also deduct half of their self-employment tax (schedule SE) from their gross income on the way to arriving at their adjusted gross income (AGI). This levels the amount paid by self-employed persons in comparison to regular employees, who don't pay general income tax on their employers' contribution of the second half of FICA, just as they didn't pay FICA tax on it either.[10][11]

These calculations are made on Schedule SE: Self-Employment Tax, although that is not readily apparent to novice self-employed taxpayers, owing to the schedule's rather opaque name, which makes it sound like it is part of the general federal income tax. Some taxpayers have complained that Schedule SE's title should be changed to something such as "Self-Employment FICA Tax", so that its separateness from the general income tax is apparent,[12] perhaps not realizing that the SE tax is not imposed by the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) at all, and that neither SE taxes nor FICA taxes are "income taxes" imposed under Chapter 1 of the Internal Revenue Code.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Insurance_Contributions_Act_tax#How_the_tax_is_calculated[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Insurance_Contributions_Act_tax#How_the_tax_is_calculated[/url])

Not sure why righties desire a return to the depression era.
NAFTA and the rest of the GOP efforts are certainly trying to recreate those "good" old days.
([url]http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5Uvquw9yxM1nVu3IMeYnQfJF5AnME6YFVkgFnU_b1kr7k4gnYEQ[/url]) ([url]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQh-iHm-4sXUS7_AnP6KAg2Cf1t0gCQtU46wEnsaB28fitFR9MJ1A[/url])
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on April 07, 2011, 09:25:13 PM

Thats because you are filing 1099's and are self employed.. John makes it sound as if everyone is paying 15% which simply isn't true..

and you don't file 1099's weekly.. do you! 

The current FICA is 6.20 for Social Security and 1.45 for Medicare...  that is the max unless you are self employed..

What do 1099's have to do with anything, Chicken?  I don't 1099 myself.  I am an employee of the corporation that I own.  As an employee I pay 6.2% and 1.45%, just like all of my other employees do.  BUT - as an employer, I also have to MATCH every penny that I personally pay, and every penny that my employees pay to Social Security and Medicare.  So the company I own pays 7.65% of all my employee's gross pay to the Feds, and I personally pay 7.65% of MY gross pay.

You can always do what I did... Incorporate yourself and pay yourself a Salary... there are many ways you can set that up... get a good accountant!

Uh, I am Incorporated, I do pay myself a salary, and I do have a very good CPA.  I still owe the taxes, no matter how it's set up.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on April 07, 2011, 09:39:15 PM
The 2011 rate for Social Security is 6.2% for employers, and4.2% for employees.

That is true for this year...  So technically a self employed person pays 2.9% in Medicare taxes, plus 10.4% in SS taxes, for a total of 13.3%, in 2011.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 07, 2011, 09:41:05 PM

Thats because you are filing 1099's and are self employed.. John makes it sound as if everyone is paying 15% which simply isn't true..

and you don't file 1099's weekly.. do you! 

The current FICA is 6.20 for Social Security and 1.45 for Medicare...  that is the max unless you are self employed..

You can always do what I did... Incorporate yourself and pay yourself a Salary... there are many ways you can set that up... get a good accountant!

Well if he is writing paychecks then I would guess he is reporting on W2's and W3.

I W-2'd myself, and I paid witholdings monthly when I owned my business, set it aside the instant it was accrued.  And the numbers are right, the EE pays 1/2 and the ER pays 1/2.  And if you are self employed you pay the whole shabang.

1099's are for reporting wages you paid to Independant Contractors.

And who came up with the great idea to reduce the amount paid in by employees at a time when the SS fund is supposedly in such dire straits?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: T-M-T on April 07, 2011, 09:47:35 PM
Where is that in the Constitution?


http://www.ssa.gov/history/court.html (http://www.ssa.gov/history/court.html)


You're welcome.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 07, 2011, 09:47:57 PM
Oh and lets not forget FUTA and MIUTA - Unemployment taxes.  Depending on your business history those can add up to about 4% of your GROSS payroll.

Then there is State mandated workers comp insurance which is usually another 3% of your GROSS payroll (more if you own a business that is higher risk for the EE - mine was 3% for the pizzeria).

So there you have about 15% of gross payroll burden on the employer alone.  So if you get paid $20/hr, before any benefits are figured in, you already cost your employer $23/hr.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SidecarFlip on April 09, 2011, 12:20:43 PM
After last night's budget fiasco on Pennsylvania Avenue, I'd agree with John in that we are almost done..........in.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: BigRedDog on April 09, 2011, 02:18:06 PM
After last night's budget fiasco on Pennsylvania Avenue, I'd agree with John in that we are almost done..........in.


I actually kind of enjoyed the whole bunch of them going at it...

probably the hardest a lot of them had "worked" in years 8* 8* 8*

And as far as I know we don't pay any of them overtime...

maybe they should "unionize" and they could get a better comp package for those long nights :) :) :)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 09, 2011, 02:27:54 PM
Let's just get it over with - slash taxes to 0%, bring in the army to quell the food riots, and let our country blow up in a wonderful (second) civil war for dwindling resources and extremist viewpoints.

We can't even agree on a budget anymore, much less more substantial issues like, I dunno, wars and stuff. Thinking is hard, sound bites are easier. Close the schools, arm the children; there's shootin' to do.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 09, 2011, 07:28:01 PM
This one is for John.


Quote
Boehner Caves...
So Much for Campaign Promises
John Boener's promise to voters lasted just about four months. He and other Republicans promised American voters that they would cut the 2011 budget by $100 Billion dollars. Well, last night the Speaker of the House, threw voters under the bus to support more of Obama's big spending.

Betrayed - as usual
Surprised? Don't be, he's part of the Washington problem. He's a Progressive polictician! Recall that John Boehner (R, OH) supported Obama by voting for the STIMULUS, the Bailouts, and the government take-over of the Auto industry. You shouldn't be surprised that he voted like a politician thinking of himself first.

Proof of Corruption
Don't believe the CRAP in the headlines about Boehner saving the day and avoiding a government shut-down. Last night, the Republican Party lost in the Washington Power struggle. Obama and corruption wins, while America continues to be flushed down the toilet. Power and greed remain unscathed while America and freedom are in deep peril.Too bad for us.


http://teapartyhandbook.blogspot.com/2011/04/boehner-caves.html (http://teapartyhandbook.blogspot.com/2011/04/boehner-caves.html)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SidecarFlip on April 09, 2011, 08:20:21 PM
Candidly, I think that Boner is pretty limp. ;D

While I don't care for Harry Reid's politics, Boner should take lessons from Reid on political presentation.

I'm of the opinion that no matter who you install on Pennsylvania Avenue, they all become limp boners.....
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 09, 2011, 09:36:42 PM
Good grief. The Tee's sound like a bunch of spoiled little brats...we didn't get our way, wah-wah! How unrealistic to think they were actually going to storm Washington and have EVERYTHING go there way and run the entire show. It pee's me off that they don't get the fact that they do not represent every person in this country. Well now that they threw Boehner under the bus, maybe the speaker will stop listening to them and get on with the business at hand. It ain't perfect, but at least having two sides represented gives us a fighting chance for comprise on issues important to everyone. Way better than having one crazy faction run the country.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 09, 2011, 09:58:36 PM
WASHINGTON — The down-to-the-wire partisan struggle over cuts to this year’s federal budget has intensified concern in Washington, on Wall Street and among economists about the more consequential clash coming over increasing the government’s borrowing limit.

Congressional Republicans are vowing that before they will agree to raise the current $14.25 trillion federal debt ceiling — a step that will become necessary in as little as five weeks — President Obama and Senate Democrats will have to agree to far deeper spending cuts for next year and beyond than those contained in the six-month budget deal agreed to late Friday night that cut $38 billion and averted a government shutdown.

Republicans have also signaled that they will again demand fundamental changes in policy on health care, the environment, abortion rights and more, as the price of their support for raising the debt ceiling.

In a letter last week, Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner told Congressional leaders the government would hit the limit no later than May 16. He outlined “extraordinary measures” — essentially moving money among federal accounts — that could buy time until July 8.

Once the limit is reached, the Treasury Department would not be able to borrow as it does routinely to finance federal operations and roll over existing debt; ultimately it would be unable to pay off maturing debt, putting the United States government — the global standard-setter for creditworthiness — into default.
Story: In budget deal, signs of Obama’s path to the middle

The repercussions in that event would be as much economic as political, rippling from the bond market into the lives of ordinary citizens through higher interest rates and financial uncertainty of the sort that the economy is only now overcoming, more than three years after the onset of the last recession.

Given the short time frame for action and the prospect of an intractable political clash, leaders in both government and business are already moving to avert a crisis that most likely would be “a recovery-ending event,” as Ben S. Bernanke, the Federal Reserve chairman, testified recently in the Senate. He described a sequence of events that “would cascade through the financial markets,” provoking another credit crisis like that in 2008 and causing interest rates to jump.

Mr. Geithner has been meeting privately with senior lawmakers of both parties to underscore the economic stakes. At the White House, Mr. Obama’s chief economic adviser, Gene Sperling, peeled away from the spending fight in recent weeks to turn nearly full time to developing the administration’s strategy for the debt-limit debate. Central to that, administration officials say, is whether Mr. Obama initiates bipartisan talks on a long-term debt-reduction plan that tackles taxes, military spending and fast-growing entitlement programs like Medicare and Medicaid.
Story: Obama, Boehner each earn wins in budget pact

Executives of the nation’s largest financial institutions in recent days met with Mr. Geithner, House Speaker John A. Boehner, Republican of Ohio, and other lawmakers, arguing for the importance of raising the debt ceiling. Jamie Dimon, the chief executive of JPMorgan Chase, told them that his bank had devised contingency plans to protect its global business in the event of a default.

“If anyone wants to push that button, which I think would be catastrophic and unpredictable, I think they’re crazy,” Mr. Dimon said recently at the United States Chamber of Commerce.

The United States is one of the few nations that limits its debt by law, and votes in Congress to raise the ceiling, something that happens every few years, are perhaps the least popular that lawmakers face.

Financial and government leaders alike have grown accustomed to some political brinkmanship over raising the cap, confident that Congress ultimately would do so, usually with the party holding the White House supplying most votes. (So it was that Mr. Obama, as a Democratic senator in 2006, voted against a Bush administration request to raise the debt limit; it passed with mostly Republican votes.)

What makes this year different, people in both parties say, is the large number of Congressional Republicans, including the many newcomers who gave the party a House majority, who are strenuously opposed to government spending, and egged on by the activist Tea Party movement to use the leverage of the debt-limit vote to make their stand.

“We want to see real structural, cultural-type changes tied to this debt ceiling. We’re not interested in a one-off kind of savings, or anything small,” said Representative Mick Mulvaney, a first-term Republican from South Carolina. “There has got to be game-changing kinds of changes to get us to vote for it.”

He dismissed warnings about default as “just posturing,” and said Democrats should bear the responsibility for passing any measure to increase the borrowing limit.

“It’s their debt,” he said. “Make them do it. That’s my attitude.”

In fact, the debt was created by both parties and past presidents as well as Mr. Obama.

Of the nearly $14.2 trillion in debt, roughly $5 trillion is money the government has borrowed from other accounts, mostly from Social Security revenues, according to federal figures. Several major policies from the past decade when Republicans controlled the White House and Congress — tax cuts, a Medicare prescription-drug benefit and wars in Iraq and Afghanistan — account for more than $3.2 trillion.

The recession cost more than $800 billion in lost revenues from businesses and individuals and in automatic spending for safety-net programs like unemployment compensation. Mr. Obama’s stimulus spending and tax cuts added about $600 billion through the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30.

Though the recent standoff that consumed Washington over spending for the 2011 fiscal year ended without a government shutdown, the messy process and 11th-hour settlement have stoked trepidation about the debt-limit fight to come. If Republicans and Democrats found it so hard to compromise over a few billion dollars, the thinking goes, how can they ever come together on a multi-year, multitrillion-dollar plan to cut the debt within weeks or months?

“If I were still Treasury secretary, it would worry the hell out of me,” said James A. Baker III, who served in that office for President Ronald Reagan, during a time when the total federal debt nearly tripled over his two terms. “But it doesn’t worry me as a good Republican, and one who wants to finally see some fiscal responsibility in this country.”

Mr. Baker, long known as a deal-maker, said Republicans were right to say, “O.K., we’ll increase the debt limit, Democrats, if you will enact enforceable spending restraint.”

Neither the White House nor Congressional leaders are certain how they will get enough votes to raise the limit. The White House and Democrats in Congress will urge passage of a “clean” debt limit increase, without amendments, though they acknowledge that cannot pass in the Republican-controlled House.

While the House is the focus of most concern, passage in the Democratic-controlled Senate will be a challenge as well. Republican conservatives there, reinforced by Tea Party adherents elected last November, vow to filibuste any increase in the debt limit, which would require a 60-vote supermajority to overcome.

The Republican leader, Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, has privately urged the conservatives not to filibuster, without success, say three people familiar with the talks. He argued that if Republicans did not filibuster and just 50 votes were needed for passage, the Republicans could try to force all the votes to come from the 51 Democrats — including 17 who are up for re-election. But if 60 votes are required because of a filibuster, ultimately some Republicans would have to vote for the increase lest the party be blamed for a debt crisis.

In the House, Mr. Boehner said after the November elections that his new members would have to deal with the debt limit “as adults.” But with many Tea Party-backed Republicans feeling that they already compromised more than they wanted on the current year’s budget, it is not clear how receptive the freshman Republicans will be to a deal this time.

The just-concluded budget fight has spawned talk that the White House and Congress will perhaps resort to a series of short-term extensions of the debt limit while they bargain over a debt-reduction plan or some other mandatory budget restraints. The question is, how might global financial markets react?

“We’ve never seen that before,” said Robert E. Rubin, the Treasury secretary under President Bill Clinton and a longtime Wall Street executive. “But I know this: It’s not a risk I’d take.”

After this week, Congress recesses until early May, returning just two weeks before Treasury hits the debt ceiling. Even stretching the deadline for action to July, there would be little time to agree on a debt-reduction accord as Republicans demand — or even on the basis for negotiations.

So attention is turning to a bipartisan “Gang of Six” in the Senate. The senators, three from each party, have met for 10 months to negotiate a comprehensive plan on taxes, entitlement programs and military spending. They have considered recommendations made by Mr. Obama’s bipartisan fiscal commission in December.

“It would be nice to have it in a package form by the debt-limit” debate, said Senator Saxby Chambliss, a Republican of Georgia. But even if the six agree, he added, “hitting everyone else with something this major, it’s going to take some time to be digested. Plus you’ve got to go through the various committees.”

House Republicans in effect outlined their starting position last week, when, amid the fight over 2011 spending, they unveiled their budget for the 2012 fiscal year and beyond. It would cut $6 trillion over 10 years, mostly from projected spending for Medicare and Medicaid.

But those savings would be offset by about $4 trillion in tax cuts. The result, according to the Congressional Budget Office, would be continued annual deficits until 2040 — necessitating more votes to raise the debt limit, even under House Republicans’ plan, for decades to come.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42512163/ns/politics-the_new_york_times (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42512163/ns/politics-the_new_york_times)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 09, 2011, 11:33:10 PM

“If anyone wants to push that button, which I think would be catastrophic and unpredictable, I think they’re crazy,” Mr. Dimon said recently at the United States Chamber of Commerce.


It is officially bizarro world  :o I agree with a banker!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 10, 2011, 12:55:56 AM
Good grief. The Tee's sound like a bunch of spoiled little brats...we didn't get our way, wah-wah! How unrealistic to think they were actually going to storm Washington and have EVERYTHING go there way and run the entire show. It pee's me off that they don't get the fact that they do not represent every person in this country. Well now that they threw Boehner under the bus, maybe the speaker will stop listening to them and get on with the business at hand. It ain't perfect, but at least having two sides represented gives us a fighting chance for comprise on issues important to everyone. Way better than having one crazy faction run the country.

I actually think it would be awesome if the Tea Party were to somehow stumble into actual power; their misguided policies and frankly ignorant knowledge of how government works would get melted down to scrap pretty quickly. Just like if some of the more extreme progressives (er, I'm sorry, fascist nazi socialist kenyan spies) got into power for a few minutes.

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on April 10, 2011, 06:23:48 AM
OOOooooooooooo...

Stupid politicians (both R and D) are bragging about cutting 38 billion dollars.

Yip.

Yip.

Yippee.

That is one quarter of one percent of the debt, and they're STILL spending WAY more than they are bringing in.

Idiots.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on April 10, 2011, 07:01:26 AM
What is going to be real interesting that is on the horizon is that Congress soon must vote to increase the government's borrowing limit to avoid the first-ever default on U.S. loan payments.

What a mess!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 10, 2011, 10:07:27 AM
From my last post above.


Quote
“We want to see real structural, cultural-type changes tied to this debt ceiling. We’re not interested in a one-off kind of savings, or anything small,” said Representative Mick Mulvaney, a first-term Republican from South Carolina. “There has got to be game-changing kinds of changes to get us to vote for it.”

He dismissed warnings about default as “just posturing,” and said Democrats should bear the responsibility for passing any measure to increase the borrowing limit.

“It’s their debt,” he said. “Make them do it. That’s my attitude.”

Really?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 10, 2011, 11:56:50 AM
Back to my harping. Folks you can get tangled up in the politics and the finger pointing all you want. Paul Ryan and the Republicans have stuck their neck out with their proposed 2012 budget. It is now up to the President and the Dems to get on board. Now, by get on board, I don't mean rubber stamp the Ryan plan. What I mean is come to the table with their own cuts, more taxes and bring SS along for the ride.

If we're going to have a chance of avoiding going over the cliff then both parties have to dig in their heels and bring the folks along by finally telling them the truth about how absolutely dire our finances are.

Think about this. When the FED supposedly stops printing dollars to buy treasuries at the end of June what if no one, or not enough entities want to buy the hundreds of billions of Treasuries we need to cover us through the end of 2011? Not only that, hundreds of billion of Treasuries mature every month. What if nobody wants to roll these over?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 10, 2011, 12:34:24 PM
Back to my harping. Folks you can get tangled up in the politics and the finger pointing all you want. Paul Ryan and the Republicans have stuck their neck out with their proposed 2012 budget. It is now up to the President and the Dems to get on board. Now, by get on board, I don't mean rubber stamp the Ryan plan. What I mean is come to the table with their own cuts, more taxes and bring SS along for the ride.

If we're going to have a chance of avoiding going over the cliff then both parties have to dig in their heels and bring the folks along by finally telling them the truth about how absolutely dire our finances are.

Think about this. When the FED supposedly stops printing dollars to buy treasuries at the end of June what if no one, or not enough entities want to buy the hundreds of billions of Treasuries we need to cover us through the end of 2011? Not only that, hundreds of billion of Treasuries mature every month. What if nobody wants to roll these over?
Too bad the Repubes dug their heels in for the Bush tax cuts for the rich.....they weren't very concerned about doling out the dollars that time.

That's what Bush did with the surplus Clinton left....and then the fool put the war(s) on a credit card.

Yep we're still feeling the pain left behind from Bush....the worst president ever.

And now his right-wing fools think the way to prosperity is to cut spending.  8*

It takes money to make money.....cue the moron with the trickle down works chant.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 10, 2011, 12:45:39 PM
GOP Budget Is Great! For Rich People... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J8dAYBy6iQ#)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 11, 2011, 07:44:38 PM
Watching Kudlow. The Dem says it is totally irresponsible to consider not raising the debt limit. That's rich. Of course staying on a spending path that will lead to a bond collapse, skyrocketing interest rates, higher unemployment, ever growing inflation and budget deficits completely spiraling out of control is better. Might as well just pull the plug and get it over with.   
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 11, 2011, 07:48:16 PM
It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 11, 2011, 07:50:45 PM
It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings!

Well you're right Sammy, but obviously, I'm not optomistic.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 11, 2011, 08:46:12 PM
Watching Kudlow. The Dem says it is totally irresponsible to consider not raising the debt limit. That's rich. Of course staying on a spending path that will lead to a bond collapse, skyrocketing interest rates, higher unemployment, ever growing inflation and budget deficits completely spiraling out of control is better. Might as well just pull the plug and get it over with.   
We should have let the tax cuts expire.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 11, 2011, 09:11:32 PM
We should have let the tax cuts expire.

FB:
Well letting the Bush tax cuts expire would have brought in some serious revenue over the next 10 years. $ 700 billion from the rich and $ 2.2 trillion from the middle class.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 12, 2011, 04:35:24 AM
FB:
Well letting the Bush tax cuts expire would have brought in some serious revenue over the next 10 years. $ 700 billion from the rich and $ 2.2 trillion from the middle class.

Yep, and that is much needed revenue isn't it?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on April 12, 2011, 10:43:54 AM
Yep, and that is much needed revenue isn't it?

Nope.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 12, 2011, 04:05:15 PM
Yep, and that is much needed revenue isn't it?

Well FB I'd be glad to pay my part of the middle class $ 2.2 trillion if
they used reforms and cuts to eliminate deficits and used the $ 2.2 trillion specifically to pay down the existing $ 14 trillion plus debt.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 12, 2011, 04:27:16 PM
Well FB I'd be glad to pay my part of the middle class $ 2.2 trillion if
they used reforms and cuts to eliminate deficits and used the $ 2.2 trillion specifically to pay down the existing $ 14 trillion plus debt.
As would I. But your Republican overlords will have none of that.

They want the cuts, and more tax breaks.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 12, 2011, 07:15:34 PM
What would happen if the country went bankrupt? Column in today's   Townhall.com by John Hawkins. Enjoy.

1) Your life savings could be reduced to nothing almost overnight. Inflation is a fact of life. As Thomas Sowell has noted, "As of 1998, a $100 bill would not buy as much as a $20 bill would buy in the 1960's." That's under normal circumstances.

However, the thing governments have traditionally done when they simply can't pay their debts is print more money. The problem with this is the further you expand the money supply, the less the money you already have on hand is worth. This can wipe out the savings of a lifetime in a relatively short period. Imagine spending billions of dollars just to buy a loaf of bread. Sound far-fetched? Well, guess what? That has happened in the Weimar Republic, which was crushed under debts from WWI and decided to pay it off by printing more money. It could happen here, too, and all the money you've scrimped and saved could become worthless in a short order.

2) Your taxes will skyrocket. We've been conned into thinking that we can fund a massive government on the backs of the rich. This is simply not so. It's not working today and it's not going to happen in the future. We cannot tax the rich enough to pay off our debt or even enough to keep the government going long-term. Even if we could, the rich have the resources to flee the country for greener pastures if they're being taxed into oblivion. The middle class? Not so much.

What that means is the more desperate the government gets, the more the average American is going to be hammered with new taxes. How much more of your income can you afford to send overseas to pay China for the money they've loaned us to keep PBS, Planned Parenthood, and the National Endowment of the Arts going? What about if the country goes bankrupt and your income tax rate shoots up fifty percent? How are you going to pay your mortgage? How are you going to feed your kids? When the government runs out of cash and it can't borrow any more money, then it will start leveling massive taxes on the American people.

3) Your life could be in danger. If the government goes bankrupt, you'll have an extremely angry, confused, and frustrated populace that has little faith in its leaders -- combined with a horrific economy and a reduced ability of the government to keep order. Under those circumstances, widespread rioting and violent crime seem entirely plausible.

When Argentina had its crisis, violence went up 142% and "young men began looting supermarkets."

Here's some of what happened during the German hyperinflation of the currency in Weimar Republic after it started printing money night and day,

The flight from currency that had begun with the buying of diamonds, gold, country houses, and antiques now extended to minor and almost useless items -- bric-a-brac, soap, hairpins. The law-abiding country crumbled into petty thievery. Copper pipes and brass armatures weren't safe. Gasoline was siphoned from cars. People bought things they didn't need and used them to barter -- a pair of shoes for a shirt, some crockery for coffee. Berlin had a "witches' Sabbath" atmosphere. Prostitutes of both sexes roamed the streets. Cocaine was the fashionable drug.

4) Your payments from the government will dramatically decrease or stop altogether. Contrary to what some people believe, Medicare and Social Security are paid out of the same fund that pays for everything else. In other words, if the government goes bankrupt, there is no money set aside to pay for these programs. So, if you're receiving Social Security, Medicare, welfare, food stamps, or any other similar programs, those checks could stop or be slashed down to nothing. That seems unthinkable to people, but if the government doesn't have any money, then it can't pay it out to people. As they say, "You can't get blood out of a turnip."

5) You will have a dramatically reduced standard of living. If taxes and inflation escalate dramatically, both of which are very likely if we go bankrupt, economic activity will slow to a crawl and we'll go into a depression. We're not talking about a "This is the worst economy since the Depression" situation that we hear every time there's a mild downturn in the economy; we're talking about a REAL depression. Businesses will close left and right, the stock market will tank, unemployment will soar to heights not seen since the thirties, and the government won't be in a position to help very much.

If that happens in a country like America, where people have been so prosperous for so long, it's going to produce utter misery. It's not a lot of fun to be poor under the best of circumstances, but it's much worse to go from having a comfortable life with a bright future to growing vegetables to eat in the backyard and wondering how you're going to keep warm in the winter.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 12, 2011, 07:38:13 PM
I always like the one where "the rich will just get up and leave".

They already ship all their earnings off shore, and dodge taxes better than Neo dodges bullets in the Matrix.

Neo dodges bullets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgbOcSqfGJk#)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 12, 2011, 08:09:44 PM
I always like the one where "the rich will just get up and leave".

They already ship all their earnings off shore, and dodge taxes better than Neo dodges bullets in the Matrix.

Neo dodges bullets ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgbOcSqfGJk#[/url])


FB:
You can piss and moan about the rich all you want, but the author of this article is right. The rich have the resources and the savy to escape a fleecing. They're already doing it by leaving high tax states.

But more importantly, you, like too many folks in this country, refuse to grab hold of the big picture. For decades we have had politicians who have made promises, and have given us humongous programs that they had no intension, or the means, to pay for. Now when someone comes along and finally tells us the truth, that we can't afford to pay for all this stuff, the folks get mad at him, not at those that lied to them and got us into this mess in the first place.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 12, 2011, 08:46:10 PM
FB:
You can piss and moan about the rich all you want, but the author of this article is right. The rich have the resources and the savy to escape a fleecing. They're already doing it by leaving high tax states.

But more importantly, you, like too many folks in this country, refuse to grab hold of the big picture. For decades we have had politicians who have made promises, and have given us humongous programs that they had no intension, or the means, to pay for. Now if someone comes along and finally tells them the truth, that we can't afford to pay for all this stuff, the folks get mad at him, not at those that lied to them and got us into this mess in the first place.

The problem is John, that they don't want to pay taxes, just like a lot of other people, but they have the money to find the loopholes, and dodge their obligations.

If their taxes were actually being paid on the money they earn, we would not have as many problems, or as big a liability, that we do now.

If they want to leave the US then my suggestion of taxing the profits on corporations that make money here would have to be implemented. They will want to continue to make that money, then they should have to pay the tax on it as well.

Just like the rest of us.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 12, 2011, 09:09:49 PM
The problem is John, that they don't want to pay taxes, just like a lot of other people, but they have the money to find the loopholes, and dodge their obligations.

FB:
Nobody "wants" to pay taxes. But it isn't just a situation where they have the money to "find" loopholes. These people/companies go to the same Pols, who are at the same time promising the folks a free lunch, and, for a few campaign bucks, have the loopholes "inserted" into the tax code for their benefit. So what is the entity that is the real source of our current dire situation?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Collegekid on April 12, 2011, 09:12:12 PM
FB:
Nobody "wants" to pay taxes.

That's not entirely true.  I want to do my civic duty and pay my taxes. I fully expect to have to pay them, and expect to pay higher ones for more or better services.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 12, 2011, 09:30:30 PM
That's not entirely true.  I want to do my civic duty and pay my taxes. I fully expect to have to pay them, and expect to pay higher ones for more or better services.
Agreed. That's why I stated "like a lot of other people" not everyone.

I understand that taxes are necessary, and I don't like to see the government waste money.

But for programs that do a lot of good, I don't mind paying for them.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 12, 2011, 09:34:12 PM
Well I would like to keep discussing this, but it's past my bedtime.

See you all tomorrow.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 12, 2011, 09:41:45 PM
That's not entirely true.  I want to do my civic duty and pay my taxes. I fully expect to have to pay them, and expect to pay higher ones for more or better services.

CK & FB:
Good. Now if we can just get you two deep thinkers to cough up an additional
$ 1.599999999999999999 trillion in taxes this year we'll be able to cover next years deficit.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 12, 2011, 10:22:11 PM
That's not entirely true.  I want to do my civic duty and pay my taxes. I fully expect to have to pay them, and expect to pay higher ones for more or better services.

CK:
Now that I've bashed you a little bit, how about going back to my post number 572, read it again, and see if you can up with a response that responds to the total post, rather than focus on some picayune throw off line.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 13, 2011, 04:44:48 AM
John, you seem to be unable to acknowledge the fact that others don't mind paying their taxes, as long as they deem what is done with the money as necessary.

The fact is, everyone was getting along just fine with the tax rate back in the late 90's and you won't acknowledge that either, because it doesn't adhere to your point of view that we should not be paying taxes at all. I guess SMASH has gotten another follower after all.

The rest of us prefer a civilized society, where we have roads, take care of our elderly and disabled. You seem to think that the only thing taxes should pay for are guns, bombs, airplanes, and air craft carriers and the like.

To each his own I guess.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on April 13, 2011, 05:26:49 AM


I guess we should all feel good that during this budget "crisis" and our need to cut spending.. they added 5 billion in defense spending... 




Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 13, 2011, 05:49:52 PM
John, you seem to be unable to acknowledge the fact that others don't mind paying their taxes, as long as they deem what is done with the money as necessary.

The fact is, everyone was getting along just fine with the tax rate back in the late 90's and you won't acknowledge that either, because it doesn't adhere to your point of view that we should not be paying taxes at all. I guess SMASH has gotten another follower after all.

The rest of us prefer a civilized society, where we have roads, take care of our elderly and disabled. You seem to think that the only thing taxes should pay for are guns, bombs, airplanes, and air craft carriers and the like.
To each his own I guess.

FB:
Why on earth are you obsessing on an argument of who "wants" or doesn't "want " to pay taxes. And your claiming I don't think we should pay "any" taxes, or just spend on military is made up hogwash and you know it.

 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 13, 2011, 06:05:37 PM
FB:
Why on earth are you obsessing on an argument of who "wants" or doesn't "want " to pay taxes. And your claiming I don't think we should pay "any" taxes, or just spend on military is made up hogwash and you know it.

 
Well John, cutting defense to Republicans is like killing the sacred cow.

EVERYTHING else must be sacrificed first.

And here's the evidence

http://monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=23156.msg517389#msg517389 (http://monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=23156.msg517389#msg517389)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 13, 2011, 07:04:30 PM
Well John, cutting defense to Republicans is like killing the sacred cow.

EVERYTHING else must be sacrificed first.

And here's the evidence

[url]http://monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=23156.msg517389#msg517389[/url] ([url]http://monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=23156.msg517389#msg517389[/url])


Waste of time to answer you. I knocked down your previous post, no acknowledgement, you just dump another load.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 13, 2011, 07:09:24 PM
Here's a problem I've been struggling with for a long time. The argument seems to target "the rich". Most of the arguments seem to center on those who make more than 250,000 per year.  It seems to me that there should be a difference between a local business owner and "Humoungous oil". It  seems that those  who make the argument lump These together. I would defend tax breaks for a local business against one for an actor who makes 20,000,000 for a movie."The rich "sorta depends on who's ox is being gored, don't it?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 13, 2011, 07:12:51 PM
Waste of time to answer you. I knocked down your previous post, no acknowledgement, you just dump another load.

Hey, I'm just pointing out facts, if you don't want to acknowledge them, that's up to you.

You might not want to buy bombs but the Republican Party sure does.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 13, 2011, 07:17:48 PM
Here's a problem I've been struggling with for a long time. The argument seems to target "the rich". Most of the arguments seem to center on those who make more than 250,000 per year.  It seems to me that there should be a difference between a local business owner and "Humoungous oil". It  seems that those  who make the argument lump These together. I would defend tax breaks for a local business against one for an actor who makes 20,000,000 for a movie."The rich "sorta depends on who's ox is being gored, don't it?
If someone making $10 an hour, has an increase in what they have to pay out in their budget, in let's say, I don't know, how about gasoline. When they were spending 10% of their budget in gasoline to go to and from work, and now have to spend 18 to 20% of their budget to go back and forth to work, how do you think that will affect them, as to say someone who makes $30 an hour?

Don't you think that is going to have a significant impact on their purchases?

Same thing goes with taxes. Putting a larger burden on those who make less than $250,000 a year, rather than putting a larger burden on those who make more than $250,000 a year, just doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 13, 2011, 07:27:53 PM
I could be mistaken, but didn't I just say the same thing?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 13, 2011, 07:29:17 PM
Here's a problem I've been struggling with for a long time. The argument seems to target "the rich". Most of the arguments seem to center on those who make more than 250,000 per year.  It seems to me that there should be a difference between a local business owner and "Humoungous oil". It  seems that those  who make the argument lump These together. I would defend tax breaks for a local business against one for an actor who makes 20,000,000 for a movie."The rich "sorta depends on who's ox is being gored, don't it?

Sammy:
Good point. When you look at folks making say $ 250K and $ 500K
a year, these folks aren't the mega rich. And lets remember something else. These people didn't graduate from High School, or College, and
immediately start making this kind of money. As an example, I would venture to say a large number of them spent their younger years scrimping and saving, working really long hours, then risking it all starting a business, making little if anything in the early years, paying workers first and then in their 40's and 50's start raking in some pretty good money. I believe these people are the salt of the earth,
the mainstay of America, and what we used to say was the idea of living the American Dream. Obama and Company? Greedy bastards!
 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 13, 2011, 07:30:18 PM
I could be mistaken, but didn't I just say the same thing?
Well if you did, it's kinda hard to tell. Especially with the "depends on whose ox is being gored" comment.

It seemed to me that you were against taxing people who made more money.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 13, 2011, 07:31:39 PM
I believe there was also a compromise proposal, something around the neighborhood of one or two million dollars being the threshold limit, but that too was quashed by the Republicans.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 13, 2011, 07:39:52 PM
Well if you did, it's kinda hard to tell. Especially with the "depends on whose ox is being gored" comment.

It seemed to me that you were against taxing people who made more money.
In my mind, it depends on WHO makes more money. If  Mom and Pop made more money, then good for them.Don't have a problem with taxing THE RICH. You decide who "THE RICH"  are.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 13, 2011, 07:41:07 PM
You decide who "THE RICH"  are.
Here's a better idea, you tell me who the rich are.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 13, 2011, 07:46:54 PM
Here's a better idea, you tell me who the rich are.
The rich are those who have more than I have. Happy now?!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 13, 2011, 07:51:48 PM
The rich are those who have more than I have. Happy now?!
Hardly. You stated that you agree with what I said in my post, as it being the same thing you stated, yet, they are most obviously two entirely different viewpoints.

So yes, I guess you are mistaken.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 13, 2011, 07:59:30 PM
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2010/05/tax-liabilities-for.html (http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2010/05/tax-liabilities-for.html)

That shows the tax liability for pre Bush, Bush, and Obama's proposal.

Obama's proposal, favor's the poor over the rich, yes. But, does not do so on such a grand scale as what is being lauded as an assault on the rich.

Get over yourself already.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 13, 2011, 08:00:02 PM
Yep. Night- night.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 13, 2011, 08:10:19 PM
(http://www.imgwiz.com/images/68img1.jpg)
(http://www.imgwiz.com/images/38img2.jpg)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on April 13, 2011, 10:05:38 PM


I have been poking around on the Treasury Direct web site..  I have a virtual account there.. 

While there I see where people can contribute money to our debt... 

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm#DebtFinance (http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm#DebtFinance)


The Public Debt Outstanding decreases when there are more redemptions of Treasury securities than there are issues.

How do you make a contribution to reduce the debt?

There are two ways for you to make a contribution to reduce the debt:

    * You can make a contribution online either by credit card, checking or savings account at Pay.gov
    * You can write a check payable to the Bureau of the Public Debt, and in the memo section, notate that it's a Gift to reduce the Debt Held by the Public. Mail your check to:

      Attn Dept G
      Bureau of the Public Debt
      P. O. Box 2188
      Parkersburg, WV 26106-2188


Note: The Bureau of the Public Debt's Office of Public Debt Accounting maintains this FAQ. Keep in mind that these questions may not fit all situations and are only intended as a guideline.



I wonder how many people actually contribute... 

What is the difference between the debt and the deficit?

The deficit is the fiscal year difference between what the United States Government (Government) takes in from taxes and other revenues, called receipts, and the amount of money the Government spends, called outlays. The items included in the deficit are considered either on-budget or off-budget.

You can think of the total debt as accumulated deficits plus accumulated off-budget surpluses. The on-budget deficits require the U.S. Treasury to borrow money to raise cash needed to keep the Government operating. We borrow the money by selling securities like Treasury bills, notes, bonds and savings bonds to the public.

The Treasury securities issued to the public and to the Government Trust Funds (Intragovernmental Holdings) then become part of the total debt. For information about the deficit, visit the Financial Management Service web site to view the Monthly Treasury Statement of Receipts and Outlays of the United States Government (MTS).


http://www.fms.treas.gov/mts/mts0311.pdf (http://www.fms.treas.gov/mts/mts0311.pdf) 

This is a 32 page PDF file of the Treasury Statement..  You can actually see how much revenue was taken in and from what entity, i.e. income tax, corporate tax..   

and you can also see the monthly money used to support government programs..

This statement is available online and updates every month...

So those that are concerned about our financial state.. can read the Statements for themselves..

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 14, 2011, 01:08:07 AM
Sammy:
Good point. When you look at folks making say $ 250K and $ 500K
a year, these folks aren't the mega rich. And lets remember something else. These people didn't graduate from High School, or College, and
immediately start making this kind of money[/b

Hmmm...kinda like teachers. They don't start out "mega rich" and have college backgrounds, with huge loans to repay...but their salary no where reaches the limits of $250k or more...maybe at the top end of their career of 80/90+k as administrator's. I love how it gets all turned upside down..those d*mn public workers serving our children's best interest with their greedy salaries! Yet, an MBA making 250k or more shouldn't shoulder an extra tax because they had to work their way to the top and go to college? I'd be curious to know how many on this site actually makes 250k or more...and who makes much less defending this argument.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 14, 2011, 07:45:21 PM
Obama's deficit cutting speech was a disgrace. The man doesn't have a plan to cut the deficit and has no plans to come up with a plan. He met earlier in the day with Republican leaders, invited them to attend the speech, and then classlessly insulted them by calling them everything but pedophiles. This was nothing more than a red meat campaign speech directed to the left wing of the left wing of his party. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 14, 2011, 09:44:38 PM
I understand my last post will cause an uproar from those on the left when they tune into the forum. So be it. This was not a speech that should be given by the President of the United States. It was divisive and counter productive. Accusing the other party of leaving seniors & children with autism to fend for themselves is beneath despicable. It not only poisons the well for future cooperation on deficit reduction it also reduces the already slim chance that our country can avoid a financial meltdown. And believe me, the consequences of a financial  meltdown will make the false claim Obama made, of leaving seniors and kids with autism to fend for themselves, seem like a Disneyland.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 14, 2011, 10:39:23 PM
Obama's deficit cutting speech was a disgrace. The man doesn't have a plan to cut the deficit and has no plans to come up with a plan. He met earlier in the day with Republican leaders, invited them to attend the speech, and then classlessly insulted them by calling them everything but pedophiles. This was nothing more than a red meat campaign speech directed to the left wing of the left wing of his party. 
You don't like the part about cutting defense spending. Or the tax increases on those making $500k or more?

Just because you don't like the plan he is presenting, doesn't mean he doesn't have a plan.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 14, 2011, 11:05:42 PM
You don't like the part about cutting defense spending. Or the tax increases on those making $500k or more?

Just because you don't like the plan he is presenting, doesn't mean he doesn't have a plan.

FB:
Didn't mention either did I? All your post proves, once again, is you are an unserious person supporting an unserious President. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 15, 2011, 12:29:59 AM
Obama's deficit cutting speech was a disgrace. The man doesn't have a plan to cut the deficit and has no plans to come up with a plan. He met earlier in the day with Republican leaders, invited them to attend the speech, and then classlessly insulted them by calling them everything but pedophiles. This was nothing more than a red meat campaign speech directed to the left wing of the left wing of his party.
You don't like the part about cutting defense spending. Or the tax increases on those making $500k or more?

Just because you don't like the plan he is presenting, doesn't mean he doesn't have a plan.
FB:
Didn't mention either did I? All your post proves, once again, is you are an unserious person supporting an unserious President. 
But you did mention something about not having a plan. The truth is, Obama moved too far to the right but his comments about the repukes were spot on.
Quote
In an interview Thursday with ABC News, Obama cited areas of agreement with Republicans in starting a process for reaching a deficit reduction agreement, but he conceded some deep-rooted differences will remain unresolved until after the 2012 elections.

Obama repeated his theme from Wednesday's speech on fiscal policy that America faces a choice between a budget-slashing Republican vision that will change how society functions and a revenue-raising Democratic vision that maintains the social safety net in place for decades.

And....



In the ABC interview, Obama framed what he called the two choices that will face voters in the 2012 vote.

"We can't get everything the government offers and not pay for it," Obama said. "Either we don't pay for it, in which case we have a society that is not caring for our seniors the way it should, is not providing some basic security for people who really need it, and is not investing in the future.

"Or we can decide to continue on the path that has made us the greatest country on Earth," the president continued. "Make those investments. Have a basic social safety net. And we can do it without hurting the middle class or fundamentally changing these programs."

Earlier, Democratic Sen. Charles Schumer of New York said the Ryan plan would lower the tax rates on America's wealthy to the lowest levels "since 1931 when Herbert Hoover was president."

"Talk about trying to turn back the clock," said Schumer, who also pledged that "no plan to end Medicare as we know it will ever, ever pass the Senate."
[url]http://edition.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/04/14/house.budget.vote/?hpt=T2[/url] ([url]http://edition.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/04/14/house.budget.vote/?hpt=T2[/url])
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 15, 2011, 04:28:21 AM
FB:
Didn't mention either did I? All your post proves, once again, is you are an unserious person supporting an unserious President. 
And all your post proves, once again, is you are an unthinking person, supporting an unthinking position.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 15, 2011, 01:10:28 PM
FB:
Didn't mention either did I? All your post proves, once again, is you are an unserious person supporting an unserious President. 

Why so serious? your side is seriously contemplating electing either a serial adulterer, a toupee-wearing bankrupt entrepreneur, or an Alaskan half-wit who never finishes what she started. None of those choices sound terribly serious to me.

Cheer up, both sides are imbeciles. Throwing your hat into one ring or another is stupid.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 15, 2011, 08:01:36 PM
Highlights from Peggy Noonan's article today on Obama's speech. I only wish my previous post could have been as articulate as hers:

"We all get stuck in the day-to-day and lose sight of the overarching, but the overarching fact of Mr. Obama’s presidency is that he made a bad impression his first years in office and has never turned that impression around. He spent his first 14 months moving on what he was thinking about—health care—and not what the public was thinking about—the economic crash, jobs, spending. He seemed not to be thinking like everyone else, which underscored the idea that he was unresponsive to the crises they were seeing. It’s hard to get past that.

His speech this week brought together all the strands of his flawed leadership. It was at moments clever, but merely clever, not up to the needs of the moment—and cleverness in a time of crisis comes as an affront. The speech seemed oblivious to recent history, as if the president had just discovered something no one knows about, a problem with spending, and has decided to alert us to the danger. He said other politicians attempt to cut by focusing on “waste and abuse,” but he knows the real secret: The problem is entitlement spending. But addressing entitlements is all anyone serious has been talking about for years; it’s what the Ryan plan is all about!

The speech was intellectually incoherent. An administration that spent two years saying, essentially, that high spending is good is suddenly insisting high spending is catastrophic. The president appealed for bipartisan efforts but his manner and approach leave his appeals sounding like diktats. His attempts to seem above the fray leave him seeming distanced and unwilling to risk anything.

Most important, the speech signaled that the White House, after all this time, sees the question of spending as a partisan tool, a weapon to be deployed in an election, and not an actual crisis. This is disrespectful toward citizens who feel honest alarm. Because of these flaws, the speech will have no afterlife, and a major speech with no afterlife might as well not have been given."
 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on April 15, 2011, 08:32:34 PM
An administration that spent two years saying, essentially, that high spending is good is suddenly insisting high spending is catastrophic.

Priceless.   ;D
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sammy on April 15, 2011, 09:48:49 PM
Priceless.   ;D
No, it has a price!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 15, 2011, 11:40:28 PM
Highlights from Peggy Noonan's article today
The biased opinion wasn't unexpected considering she was the primary speech writer for Reagan and the chief speechwriter for George H.W. Bush.

Now I see where you pilfer whatever word of the day you happen to become enamored with from time to time.

I think the latest one was "unserious" which you used twice here:
FB:
Didn't mention either did I? All your post proves, once again, is you are an unserious person supporting an unserious President. 

The WSJ posted the same word in the title of an article written by Noonan about two hours prior.
http://online.wsj.com/article/declarations.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/declarations.html)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 15, 2011, 11:51:09 PM
The problem is entitlement spending.
No, the problem is the Republican Party of "NO" acting like spoiled children until they get what they want.
Which is how they managed to extend the Bush tax cuts....again making things worse.


An administration that spent two years saying, essentially, that high spending is good is suddenly insisting high spending is catastrophic.
Obama never said high spending is good. It's just he was forced into it because of the mess he inherited from the Republican Party.
Sadly the Conservatives are determined to halt this uptick any way they can.
The mission to make everything worse with an eye on political gain isn't over yet.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 18, 2011, 06:59:22 PM
([url]http://www.imgwiz.com/images/68img1.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.imgwiz.com/images/38img2.jpg[/url])
This is the tax table that is being proposed currently.

Everyone making less than $150,000 will be paying LESS taxes than even during the Bush Tax cuts. For those making $300,000 the tax rate remains the same as under the Bush tax cuts.

For those making $500,000 a year, they would only be paying $6,642 more than under the Bush Tax Cuts, and only $132 more than before the tax cuts.

How is this so grossly unfair? Please, explain it to me.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 18, 2011, 08:54:42 PM
This is the tax table that is being proposed currently.

Everyone making less than $150,000 will be paying LESS taxes than even during the Bush Tax cuts. For those making $300,000 the tax rate remains the same as under the Bush tax cuts.

For those making $500,000 a year, they would only be paying $6,642 more than under the Bush Tax Cuts, and only $132 more than before the tax cuts.

How is this so grossly unfair? Please, explain it to me.

FB:

Chart we couldn't read, nor your comments, mentioned what these rate increases would bring into the treasury. So for arguments sake let's go back to letting the Bush tax rate cuts on the wealthy expire. I believe I read where this would would bring in an extra $ 70 billion per year. Yet even if we hiked the rate higher, where the amount brought in each year was doubled, or even tripled, we'd still have a yearly deficit of around a trillion and a half. Throw in $ 200 billion more by raising taxes on corporations, forget the reduction in dividends to public pension plans, we still have well over a trillion in yearly deficits. Now what? Cut the defense budget in half to get the deficit down to
something a little less than a trillion per year? OK. What next? 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 19, 2011, 04:29:52 AM
FB:

Chart we couldn't read, nor your comments, mentioned what these rate increases would bring into the treasury. So for arguments sake let's go back to letting the Bush tax rate cuts on the wealthy expire. I believe I read where this would would bring in an extra $ 70 billion per year. Yet even if we hiked the rate higher, where the amount brought in each year was doubled, or even tripled, we'd still have a yearly deficit of around a trillion and a half. Throw in $ 200 billion more by raising taxes on corporations, forget the reduction in dividends to public pension plans, we still have well over a trillion in yearly deficits. Now what? Cut the defense budget in half to get the deficit down to
something a little less than a trillion per year? OK. What next? 
We already played that game remember?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 19, 2011, 12:15:53 PM
I'm just glad Kopke has found the question mark on his keyboard. It's disconcerting to read inquiries as statements, and makes the grammar nazi in me twitch.

What did you have for lunch today.

How many people will be there.

Where is your favorite Mexican restaurant.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 19, 2011, 03:51:10 PM
Sammy:
Good point. When you look at folks making say $ 250K and $ 500K
a year,
these folks aren't the mega rich. And lets remember something else. These people didn't graduate from High School, or College, and
immediately start making this kind of money. As an example, I would venture to say a large number of them spent their younger years scrimping and saving, working really long hours, then risking it all starting a business, making little if anything in the early years, paying workers first and then in their 40's and 50's start raking in some pretty good money. I believe these people are the salt of the earth,
the mainstay of America, and what we used to say was the idea of living the American Dream. Obama and Company? Greedy bastards!
 
And if you check the chart I posted, you would see that none of the people you consider "the salt of the earth" would suffer any hardship what so ever.

You make it sound like Obama is going to take away 1/2 their income. 8*
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 19, 2011, 04:08:57 PM
    * Households with incomes over $1 million in 1961 paid an average 43.1 percent of their incomes in federal income taxes. Today, households with $1 million income pay 23.1 percent, almost half as much, adjusting for inflation.
    * If households with income over $1 million today paid their federal income taxes at the same rate that comparable households paid taxes in 1961, we would this year raise an additional $231 billion.
    * If U.S. corporations paid at the same effective tax rate that they paid in 1961, the additional tax revenue would total $485 billion.
    * In 1961, small business owners and individuals paid twice as much in federal income taxes as large corporations. By 2011, small business owners and individuals will be paying nearly five times in taxes what corporations pay.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/150550/we_don%27t_need_to_shut_down_the_government:_tax_the_wealthy_and_deadbeat_corporations_to_close_budget_gaps/ (http://www.alternet.org/economy/150550/we_don%27t_need_to_shut_down_the_government:_tax_the_wealthy_and_deadbeat_corporations_to_close_budget_gaps/)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 19, 2011, 04:10:59 PM
    * Households with incomes over $1 million in 1961 paid an average 43.1 percent of their incomes in federal income taxes. Today, households with $1 million income pay 23.1 percent, almost half as much, adjusting for inflation.
    * If households with income over $1 million today paid their federal income taxes at the same rate that comparable households paid taxes in 1961, we would this year raise an additional $231 billion.
    * If U.S. corporations paid at the same effective tax rate that they paid in 1961, the additional tax revenue would total $485 billion.
    * In 1961, small business owners and individuals paid twice as much in federal income taxes as large corporations. By 2011, small business owners and individuals will be paying nearly five times in taxes what corporations pay.

[url]http://www.alternet.org/economy/150550/we_don%27t_need_to_shut_down_the_government:_tax_the_wealthy_and_deadbeat_corporations_to_close_budget_gaps/[/url] ([url]http://www.alternet.org/economy/150550/we_don%27t_need_to_shut_down_the_government:_tax_the_wealthy_and_deadbeat_corporations_to_close_budget_gaps/[/url])
There is about 1/2 of what you wanted John.  $716 Billion dollars worth.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: sadhu on April 19, 2011, 04:18:27 PM
This thread never seems to die. This article will confirm the fact that this nation is screwed beyond belief. I have been wrong this entire time. Looks like Fartbongo has finally done us all in.

I would spend some more time posting some snippets from the article and whatnot, but I am simply too busy stocking up on ammo and fuel, and have to be in the bread line by 4:30 so poor little Timmy can have some cold mush when he gets home from the labor camp.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/04/19/national/w082412D84.DTL&tsp=1 (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/04/19/national/w082412D84.DTL&tsp=1)

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 19, 2011, 08:00:41 PM

* If households with income over $1 million today paid their federal income taxes at the same rate that comparable households paid taxes in 1961, we would this year raise an additional $231 billion.
    * If U.S. corporations paid at the same effective tax rate that they paid in 1961, the additional tax revenue would total $485 billion.

There is about 1/2 of what you wanted John.  $716 Billion dollars worth.

FB:
So if were to now tax corporations at the 1961 rate we would POOF have an additional $ 485 billion in tax revenue. "Sounds" good. Yet
clearly this would lower the net profit of these corporations would it not? And if their net profit were to be significantly reduced by $ 485 billion per year in additional taxes wouldn't this also have a very negative impact on the value of their stock price? And if their price per share dropped dramatically wouldn't the individuals and pension plans that own their shares get hammered? And when that happens wouldn't that result in state public employee pension funds being even more underfunded than they are now? Would States then demand public sector employees pay more toward their retirement to cover the underfunding. The loss of tax revenue, when dividends that won't be paid, aren't taxed. And if you slammed corporations this hard will they be more inclined to move offshore?

Point is not that we don't need to take a look at corporate welfare and the various loopholes, but remember corporations are composed of thousands of shareholders, your friends and neighbors, not some single greedy individual, and your idea clearly does not factor in the law of unintended consequences.

Now millionaire tax increases. Do you think these folks will come up with the money to pay the additional $281 billion in taxes per year by taking it out from under mattress? No this will reduce the money they put into investments and their discretionary spending. And let me ask you this. If you knew I could legally take your lawnmower if you left it in the back yard would you maybe put it in the garage? Again the law of unitended consequences shows up again.


 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 19, 2011, 08:03:17 PM
Japan Voices Support for Treasuries After S&P Outlook Cut
April 19, 2011

April 19 (Bloomberg) -- Japanese policy makers signaled their commitment to holding Treasuries after Standard & Poor’s lowered its outlook for the U.S.’s AAA credit rating to “negative” for the first time yesterday.

“We continue to see U.S. debt as an attractive investment,” Finance Minister Yoshihiko Noda said at a press conference in Tokyo today. Treasuries would still be “extremely good-quality securities” even if the grade was lowered, Economic and Fiscal Policy Minister Kaoru Yosano said.

Japan is the world’s second-largest holder of U.S. Treasuries after China, with $890.3 billion investment as of February, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. S&P yesterday said the outlook change indicates that there’s a one-in-three chance that the rating might be cut within two years.

The Nikkei 225 Stock Average slid 1.5 percent to 9,417.28 as of 12:39 p.m. in Tokyo, and the yen rose against the dollar as investors flocked to safer assets after the S&P announcement. Japan’s currency traded at 82.50 per dollar.

Japan, which has the largest debt burden in the industrialized world, had its own sovereign rating lowered to AA- by S&P in January. It lost the AAA grade in 2001.

Debt constraints in the aftermath of a record March 11 earthquake prompted Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano to signal today the government may consider raising taxes to pay for rebuilding efforts.

‘Including’ Taxes

The ruling Democratic Party of Japan “is considering various measures including this,” Edano told reporters today in Tokyo. “The government hasn’t reached the stage where we’re considering specific means for revenue.”

Prime Minister Naoto Kan may raise the 5 percent consumption tax to 8 percent for three years starting in 2012 to help finance rebuilding, the Yomiuri newspaper reported today, without citing anyone. When asked about a possible tax increase, Noda said the government is focusing on rolling out its first stimulus package by the end of this month.

Between 58 percent and 69 percent of voters favor higher taxes to help pay for reconstruction, according to polls released yesterday by the Nikkei, Asahi and Mainichi newspapers. Asked how Japan should finance the effort, 38 percent said tax increases, 13 percent chose bond sales, and 31 percent said a combination of both, according to the Nikkei.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-04-19/japan-voices-support-for-treasuries-after-s-p-outlook-cut.html (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-04-19/japan-voices-support-for-treasuries-after-s-p-outlook-cut.html)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 19, 2011, 08:10:38 PM
Well I would imagine a creditor sitting on $ 890 billion in US Treasuries is not going to trash them. 

Also you'll notice the raise in the consumption tax is on "everyone".
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 19, 2011, 09:25:50 PM
Here we Americans are fighting amonst ourselves. Yet the blame is all our own. We have continually elected representatives and Presidents that have promised us programs etc. that they had neither the means, nor the intention, to pay for. They were lying to us. John Dingell is a prime example. Here we find ourselves with our backs against a fiscal wall and where is John Dingell? He was always up front to ladle it out, yet now when the bill is coming due, all he's got, as demonstrated by his recent speech to the Monroe Chamber of Commerce, was a speech that sounded like Leslie Gore singing Sunshine, Lollipops and Rainbows. Shame on him, and shame on us for continuing to elect him.
 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 19, 2011, 09:39:41 PM
John, you still haven't look at the charts have you? You will continue to ignore facts when they look you in the face.

The amount of the increase on those "millionaire's" is less than 1% of their income. And you act like we are raping their children.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 19, 2011, 09:46:51 PM
That discretionary money they are investing in right now, is mainly in commodities and derivative trading, making the price of gasoline and the like skyrocket.

Sounds like an even better reason to tax them to me.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 19, 2011, 09:47:11 PM
Here we Americans are fighting amonst ourselves. Yet the blame is all our own. We have continually elected representatives and Presidents that have promised us programs etc. that they had neither the means, nor the intention, to pay for. They were lying to us. John Dingell is a prime example. Here we find ourselves with our backs against a fiscal wall and where is John Dingell? He was always up front to ladle it out, yet now when the bill is coming due, all he's got, as demonstrated by his recent speech to the Monroe Chamber of Commerce, was a speech that sounded like Leslie Gore singing Sunshine, Lollipops and Rainbows. Shame on us.
Yes, shame on you......always parroting inaccurate right-wing lies.
The "programs" are fine....it's just the Repukes managed to cut taxes to the bone and not only drained the coffers to support the war machine but put the remainder on a credit card.

Let's just eliminate the Bush tax cuts and tax those that are better able to absorb the costs of additional taxes....the ones that prospered most from the Bush tax cuts in the first place.

The big corporations and those that off-shored should be forced to pay their share as well.....problem solved.

So quit attacking Dingell.....your partisan agenda is pretty transparent.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 19, 2011, 09:51:25 PM
John, you still haven't look at the charts have you? You will continue to ignore facts when they look you in the face.

The amount of the increase on those "millionaire's" is less than 1% of their income. And you act like we are raping their children.

FB:
Looked at the charts and they don't fit the screen. Yet I did address you $ 716 billion in tax increases. And your charge that I "act like we are raping their children" is nonsense. You're just too damn lazy to address the arguments I made as it regards the Laws of Unintended Consequences.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 19, 2011, 09:52:48 PM
And no, those millionaires won't take the money from their mattress.

It's already offshore in some bank account.

And you are too lazy to move a little slider bar on the bottom of the screen in order to see the charts. Priceless.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 19, 2011, 09:55:07 PM
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2010/05/tax-liabilities-for.html (http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2010/05/tax-liabilities-for.html)

Again, there is the link that shows the same information that I presented above, at least 4 times now.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 19, 2011, 10:01:37 PM
That discretionary money they are investing in right now, is mainly in commodities and derivative trading, making the price of gasoline and the like skyrocket. Sounds like an even better reason to tax them to me.


Well FB, financial genius that you are, if you were them, would you be putting you vast discretionary income in a savings account paying you 1/4 of a 1 percent in interest?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 19, 2011, 10:02:51 PM
FB:
Looked at the charts and they don't fit the screen. Yet I did address you $ 716 billion in tax increases. And your charge that I "act like we are raping their children" is nonsense. You're just too damn lazy to address the arguments I made as it regards the Laws of Unintended Consequences.
Just how small is your monitor?
You can adjust the size of what you're viewing by holding down the Ctrl button on your keyboard while tapping either the + or - button (or the scroll wheel on the mouse)

Of course I'm hoping an old dog can learn new tricks.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 19, 2011, 10:04:41 PM

Well FB, financial genius that you are, if you were them, would you be putting you vast discretionary income in a savings account paying you 1/4 of a 1 percent in interest?
So you agree with what the speculators are doing with the gasoline supply?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 19, 2011, 10:10:21 PM
And no, those millionaires won't take the money from their mattress.

It's already offshore in some bank account.

And you are too lazy to move a little slider bar on the bottom of the screen in order to see the charts. Priceless.
And no, those millionaires won't take the money from their mattress.

It's already offshore in some bank account.

And you are too lazy to move a little slider bar on the bottom of the screen in order to see the charts. Priceless.

Ain't no slide bar on my forum. And "you", having stayed in a Holiday Inn Express for one night, now an expert, tell us about how all the Millionaires have their money offshore. Quit wasting my time.

And I coined the word "Priceless" in the forum so don't use it without attribution.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 19, 2011, 11:51:54 PM
I'm just curious John, do you think only people with wealth should have an opinion?

I'm really not trying to be sarcastic here, but that is something that bother's me about politic's in general. Because while many people can't articulate a subject, they ARE able to differentiate between right and wrong. For example, I can't tell how it's accomplished, but I can tell you that shifting money out of the US to dodge taxes is wrong. And I know for sure that when corp's who make billion's in profits and instead of paying, get a tax refund, that's wrong too.

I guess it just ticks me off when rich people try to casually wave away people's concerns because us little folk just ain't smart enough to get it dang nab it...well right is right and wrong is wrong, and you don't gotta be a d*mn MBA on Wall Street to know when your gettin' screwed.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 20, 2011, 01:25:57 AM
I'm just curious John, do you think only people with wealth should have an opinion?

I'm really not trying to be sarcastic here, but that is something that bother's me about politic's in general. Because while many people can't articulate a subject, they ARE able to differentiate between right and wrong. For example, I can't tell how it's accomplished, but I can tell you that shifting money out of the US to dodge taxes is wrong. And I know for sure that when corp's who make billion's in profits and instead of paying, get a tax refund, that's wrong too.

I guess it just ticks me off when rich people try to casually wave away people's concerns because us little folk just ain't smart enough to get it dang nab it...well right is right and wrong is wrong, and you don't gotta be a d*mn MBA on Wall Street to know when your gettin' screwed.

313:
Absolutely not. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Don't like shifting money out of the US. Did you vote for a rep. that did anything about it?

And rich people and the Wall Street folks, generally speaking, are not nearly the same people..

What gets me is you focus on the "bad" wealthy people. You have  government reps., you and I voted for, that have stolen and spent  our every dime of the SS Trust Fund, that same SS program, the biggest ponzi of all time, Medicare, Medicaid, and a Senior Drug programs created that the creators had no plan, or intension to fund, a Federal Reserve printing money (devaluing every single dollar you have) to cover the 40 cents of every dollar the government over- spends, and now, with the bill coming due, after decades of gov't.   shenanigans, you're going to listen to the government folks tell you it is the wealthy that are to be blamed for our predicament?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 20, 2011, 02:27:09 AM
313:
Absolutely not. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Don't like shifting money out of the US. Did you vote for a rep. that did anything about it?

And rich people and the Wall Street folks, generally speaking, are not nearly the same people..

What gets me is you focus on the "bad" wealthy people. You have  government reps., you and I voted for, that have stolen and spent  our every dime of the SS Trust Fund, that same SS program, the biggest ponzi of all time, Medicare, Medicaid, and a Senior Drug programs created that the creators had no plan, or intension to fund, a Federal Reserve printing money (devaluing every single dollar you have) to cover the 40 cents of every dollar the government over- spends, and now, with the bill coming due, after decades of gov't.   shenanigans, you're going to listen to the government folks tell you it is the wealthy that are to be blamed for our predicament?
I'm not "focused" on "bad" wealthy people, what I'm focused on is the current trend in the GOP for going after small potato's...such as teachers etc. and not addressing much larger glut in our budget's, like corp's who make profits and don't pay taxes. Yeah, I can already hear the wall going up when I say that. But seriously, you have to admit there is something wrong when mid-salaried public sector teacher's salaries, who serve us in a GOOD way, are under such harsh attacks, when there is much bigger fish to fry in our economy. It certainly makes me suspicious as to motive. Where are all the job's these tax cuts were supposed to provide?

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 20, 2011, 04:30:36 AM
Ain't no slide bar on my forum. And "you", having stayed in a Holiday Inn Express for one night, now an expert, tell us about how all the Millionaires have their money offshore. Quit wasting my time.

And I coined the word "Priceless" in the forum so don't use it without attribution.
You must think pretty high of yourself John, not that that is any surprise to anyone here. You castigate me, yet turn right around and agree with 313


Don't like shifting money out of the US. Did you vote for a rep. that did anything about it?


Quote

And rich people and the Wall Street folks, generally speaking, are not nearly the same people..

You mean just because they are rich, doesn't mean they are a "Wall street" person? Well, I'd have to agree, but it IS those "Wall Street" people that got rich over the rest of the worlds demise.
Quote

What gets me is you focus on the "bad" wealthy people. You have  government reps., you and I voted for, that have stolen and spent  our every dime of the SS Trust Fund, that same SS program, the biggest ponzi of all time, Medicare, Medicaid, and a Senior Drug programs created that the creators had no plan, or intension to fund, a Federal Reserve printing money (devaluing every single dollar you have) to cover the 40 cents of every dollar the government over- spends, and now, with the bill coming due, after decades of gov't.   shenanigans, you're going to listen to the government folks tell you it is the wealthy that are to be blamed for our predicament?
The ones on Wall Street, the large corporations that have purchased a majority of our legislators and those legislators themselves, yes. And it isn't the government "folks" that are telling us that.

We figured it out all by our little own selves 8*
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 20, 2011, 04:47:57 AM
FB:
So if were to now tax corporations at the 1961 rate we would POOF have an additional $ 485 billion in tax revenue. "Sounds" good. Yet
clearly this would lower the net profit of these corporations would it not? And if their net profit were to be significantly reduced by $ 485 billion per year in additional taxes wouldn't this also have a very negative impact on the value of their stock price? And if their price per share dropped dramatically wouldn't the individuals and pension plans that own their shares get hammered? And when that happens wouldn't that result in state public employee pension funds being even more underfunded than they are now? Would States then demand public sector employees pay more toward their retirement to cover the underfunding. The loss of tax revenue, when dividends that won't be paid, aren't taxed. And if you slammed corporations this hard will they be more inclined to move offshore?

Point is not that we don't need to take a look at corporate welfare and the various loopholes, but remember corporations are composed of thousands of shareholders, your friends and neighbors, not some single greedy individual, and your idea clearly does not factor in the law of unintended consequences.

Now millionaire tax increases. Do you think these folks will come up with the money to pay the additional $281 billion in taxes per year by taking it out from under mattress? No this will reduce the money they put into investments and their discretionary spending. And let me ask you this. If you knew I could legally take your lawnmower if you left it in the back yard would you maybe put it in the garage? Again the law of unitended consequences shows up again.


 

If your argument is that corporate tax rates and loopholes should stay in place merely to protect the stock price, then my rebuttal to you is simply this.... why do find it OK for the stock price to be artificially inflated?  The stock price is elevated because the corps are getting a pass on taxes.  Let them pay what they should and let their "value" reflect their true worth.  Do you remember the true American way of economics John?  Supply and demand... a concept that the ultra rich beat the drum of but in reality are most fearful of.  Supply and demand are gone John, look at the commodities market, do you really think the world is willing to pay the current commodities prices?  Hell no, the prices are being driving by incredibly rich people and funds that have enough money to push the price higher or lower based on the prospect of financial gain, not on how much beef you are going to consume this year.  You seem to have missed the reality that our Nation has gotten away from what made it tick for everyone and has transitioned into what makes it tick for Wall St.... the consumer is getting left behind.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Brian Beneteau on April 20, 2011, 07:14:15 AM
Supply and demand are gone John, look at the commodities market, do you really think the world is willing to pay the current commodities prices?  Hell no, the prices are being driving by incredibly rich people and funds that have enough money to push the price higher or lower based on the prospect of financial gain, not on how much beef you are going to consume this year. 

 Have to somewhat disagree with you on that comment JB. With gold at record prices and silver approaching record prices, there are still more buyers of commodities than sellers. And not just the incredibly rich, but locally farmers, elderly, and even small families are buying. I am in need of a great deal of silver right now to supply customer demand, and while your statement about the rich pushing prices may be somewhat true, it is also being driven by supply and demand. Now conversely to that comment, it is the uber rich who will be the group who may force the downturn in silver and gold, if and when there is another safe haven for their money. When the supply returns from their sales, and the demand is gone, prices will drop, and may drop very quickly.
Call me when you get a chance JB. I have something you may be interested in.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on April 20, 2011, 07:59:29 AM
I also have to disagree with the comments that say greedy investors are driving up commodity prices.  That happens frequently with equities, but is a good way to get your rear end burned when playing with the commodities market.

Most commodities are driven by supply and demand, or in many cases the perceived supply and demand.  Agricultural commodities are rising in price because the demand is increasing at a faster pace then the production.  Plain and simple.

Oil prices are affected by politics, and again, perceived supply and demand.  Sure, some speculators jump into the market to try to make a buck, and they do have some influence on the price at times, but the fundamentals of supply and demand are the driving force behind the commodities markets, IMO.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on April 20, 2011, 09:07:04 AM
I also have to disagree with the comments that say greedy investors are driving up commodity prices.  That happens frequently with equities, but is a good way to get your rear end burned when playing with the commodities market.

Most commodities are driven by supply and demand, or in many cases the perceived supply and demand.  Agricultural commodities are rising in price because the demand is increasing at a faster pace then the production.  Plain and simple.

Oil prices are affected by politics, and again, perceived supply and demand.  Sure, some speculators jump into the market to try to make a buck, and they do have some influence on the price at times, but the fundamentals of supply and demand are the driving force behind the commodities markets, IMO.

I guess that is why the Koch brother have four tankers out in the Gulf of Mexico brimming with Crude Oil... they are waiting for the prices to drop... I guess they should not have filled all their storage space for crude on land...

No such thing as falsely creating a demand...  none what so ever.. the Hunt Brothers never did it in the 80's.. and the Koch Brothers are not doing it now...


Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 20, 2011, 10:19:21 AM
Have to somewhat disagree with you on that comment JB. With gold at record prices and silver approaching record prices, there are still more buyers of commodities than sellers. And not just the incredibly rich, but locally farmers, elderly, and even small families are buying. I am in need of a great deal of silver right now to supply customer demand, and while your statement about the rich pushing prices may be somewhat true, it is also being driven by supply and demand. Now conversely to that comment, it is the uber rich who will be the group who may force the downturn in silver and gold, if and when there is another safe haven for their money. When the supply returns from their sales, and the demand is gone, prices will drop, and may drop very quickly.
Call me when you get a chance JB. I have something you may be interested in.

I am going to half disagree with you (figure that one out).  It is true that there are some non super wealthy folks chasing the commodities and they are doing so to mke a buck, but the small timers are just along for the ride wether they want to admit it or not, and I think we both know that to be true.

My point is that no one really wants to pay $9.00 a pound for porterhouse, so as the prices of things go up like meat consumers will slip to a lower grade that they can afford.  Will they still be buying beef?  Yes, but not how they want to.  But that will be how the food end of the commodities market comes back to earth, there will be no money left to appease the demand, consumers, broke will not buy and the prices will fall. 

Oil is a different animal, the supply is ample, very ample.  Oil and thus gasoline is being driven specifically by speculators.  The supply is flush, the demand really is stagnant yet the price is moving at a staggering pace with every bullet fired.  Why do you suppose that is?  Metals are moving in much the same manner as oil and have actually been manipulated downward by some major players.  Me thinks, and its just a theory that JPM is selling selling selling from one hand to keep the prices down as long as they can, and from the other hand friends of JPM are buying buying buying.  We all know the metals are going to have a huge spike, the question is simply for how long?  How high will they go and when do the players who have all the money cash in?  Knowing JPM covered a good chunk of their shorts for $50 an ounce and now holds that silver tells me that silver goes to at least $55 so I am still comfortable being a little fish chasing a few dollars in the silver market, but I don't think for much longer, and I don't see this $100 silver price that the near conspiracy theorists are talking about, unless of course JPM keeps settling their shorts and then going short again two weeks later.  Lots of manipulation going on in the silver market and I am enjoying the ride up, but I will surely be watching for the signs to bail... i.e. when JPM stops going short.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 20, 2011, 10:36:32 AM
I also have to disagree with the comments that say greedy investors are driving up commodity prices.  That happens frequently with equities, but is a good way to get your rear end burned when playing with the commodities market.

Most commodities are driven by supply and demand, or in many cases the perceived supply and demand.  Agricultural commodities are rising in price because the demand is increasing at a faster pace then the production.  Plain and simple.

Oil prices are affected by politics, and again, perceived supply and demand.  Sure, some speculators jump into the market to try to make a buck, and they do have some influence on the price at times, but the fundamentals of supply and demand are the driving force behind the commodities markets, IMO.

On what do you base the statement that demand for agricultural commodities is on the rise?  You better hope that you are right and its not speculators because with the strangle hold they got on you with oil, you may lose money getting the crops out this fall.  That is if the "demand" weakens.

Comodities are high because in Chicago some guy in a suit representing another fella from West Palm Beach who is teleconfrencing with New York City is taking a gamble that enough people will buy or sell the same way he does.  It's all a shell game now live, it has nothing to do with "demand" anymore.  How else can you explain crops being left in the ground while people starve because the farmers cannot make enough money harvesting them even though the "demand" is surely there.  If the price of watermelons goes to an all time low, are you going to carry through with your watermelon patch plans?  No!  Do you  think us lowly city folk aren't gonna want to eat watermelon this summer?  Of course we do.  There will be ample demand but no supply, and the prices will have already been set.  The game has been going on for years, I owned a pizza place, I dealt with "supply and demand" in my prices all the time, and it is painfully obvious when prices are being manipulated because of the creation of a false "demand".  I remember when pizza cheese went from $1.17 a pound to $3.50 in 2 months because of speculation that there was going to be a milk shortage, everyone paid the speculated price two months in advance (there was still plenty of cheese already produced and ready to be bought mind you) and lo and behold when the "squeeze" came the cheese was there and the speculators laughed all the way to the bank... the dairy farmers right behind them.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 20, 2011, 03:02:03 PM
I do love also how "If you tax the rich, they won't money to invest in businesses, and therefore people will lose jobs".

As it has been stated, the ultra rich aren't investing in business, they are investing in derivatives and commodities. And when you get a Republican to admit that, they state "Why shouldn't they be doing that?", instead of acknowledging the fact that giving corporations, or ultra rich, tax breaks, is not going to help the economy, but is in fact hurting it.

Buying oil at $50 a barrel, keeping it in tankers, then continuing to :"speculate" that the price will go up, when in fact, you are indeed forcing it to go up may or may not be criminal.

But it ought to be.

Market manipulation at its finest. "He who controls the countries wealth, controls the country".

Good Job Koch Brothers, you control America, and have a bunch of idiots following you every step of the way.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Monrover on April 20, 2011, 04:26:26 PM
I do love also how "If you tax the rich, they won't money to invest in businesses, and therefore people will lose jobs".

As it has been stated, the ultra rich aren't investing in business, they are investing in derivatives and commodities. And when you get a Republican to admit that, they state "Why shouldn't they be doing that?", instead of acknowledging the fact that giving corporations, or ultra rich, tax breaks, is not going to help the economy, but is in fact hurting it.

Buying oil at $50 a barrel, keeping it in tankers, then continuing to :"speculate" that the price will go up, when in fact, you are indeed forcing it to go up may or may not be criminal.

But it ought to be.

Market manipulation at its finest. "He who controls the countries wealth, controls the country".Good Job Koch Brothers, you control America, and have a bunch of idiots following you every step of the way.


(Edited to add:) We should r Remember that when we you think of the Federal Reserve. That sentiment is exactly how Jefferson felt regarding the minting of currency by private banks.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on April 20, 2011, 05:59:48 PM

(Edited to add:) We should r Remember that when we you think of the Federal Reserve. That sentiment is exactly how Jefferson felt regarding the minting of currency by private banks.

Yep, but Rothschild said it best:
"Give me control over a Nations money supply, and I care not who makes it's laws."

But this is one of my favorites:

"Capital must protect itself in every way. Debts must be collected, mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible. When through the process of law the common people lose their homes, they will become more docile and more easily governed through the strong arm of government applied by a central power of wealth under leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. This is well known among our principal men now engaged in forming an imperialism of capitalism to govern the world. By dividing the people we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us except as teachers of the common herd. It is thus by discreet action we can secure for ourselves that which has been so well planned and so successfully accomplished." - U.S. Banker's Association Magazine, 1924
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 20, 2011, 07:18:58 PM
If your argument is that corporate tax rates and loopholes should stay in place merely to protect the stock price, then my rebuttal to you is simply this.... why do find it OK for the stock price to be artificially inflated?  The stock price is elevated because the corps are getting a pass on taxes.  Let them pay what they should and let their "value" reflect their true worth.  Do you remember the true American way of economics John?  Supply and demand... a concept that the ultra rich beat the drum of but in reality are most fearful of.  Supply and demand are gone John, look at the commodities market, do you really think the world is willing to pay the current commodities prices?  Hell no, the prices are being driving by incredibly rich people and funds that have enough money to push the price higher or lower based on the prospect of financial gain, not on how much beef you are going to consume this year.  You seem to have missed the reality that our Nation has gotten away from what made it tick for everyone and has transitioned into what makes it tick for Wall St.... the consumer is getting left behind.

JBS:

Argument wasn't that all the corporate loopholes should stay in place to protect stock value. What I was doing was pointing out to FB that the government can't just reach in and "Poof" begin extracting an additional $ 485 billion per year in increased taxes from corporations without there being very negative unintended consequences.

Supply and demand. I have no argument that current commondity
prices are being driven much more by speculation than in relation to supply and demand.  I would also agree that corporate stock prices are higher than they would be if corporations were taxed more.

First surging commodity prices. I'm not completely on board that it is just super wealthy manipulating the Commodity, metals surge.
I believe you left out of your argument the actions of the FED and our country's debt and out of control yearly deficits. The Federal Reserve
implemented QE1 and QE2 etc. to keep interest rates artificially low. These are risky moves that could very lead to an inflation problem. And then we also to worry about the Federal Government turning to inflation to pay their debts in cheap money. Given these worries even middle class folks like me are wondering, where the heck do I go to protect against inflation, and maybe get a halfway decent return on my money? CD's! Many have gone into stocks and others mostly in metals. I for one get the feeling the Federal Reserve is herding us there. Another Federal Reserve bubble? Could very well be because once they reverse course on cheap money, bonds, stocks and metals are going to take a hit. I could go on and on, but it boils down to this. For average folks the world is turning into a big crap shoot, and the odds aren't with us.       

 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 21, 2011, 12:02:46 AM
Taking a break from the Wings game I come back to the forum and take a look at the board. FF has been busy pushing his narrow partisan topics. Nobody much comments, or views, but FF is in his glory. Unfortunately, tiresome isn't much of a draw.

We want to look at slowly improving employment rates and take hope. But the problem is, unless new jobs miracuously appear in really big numbers, it won't matter.

I'm convinced if we don't make some very serious progress on the deficits it won't matter. Our country is in a severe fiscal crisis and unless something is done, and soon, the bond market will collapse within the next few years, maybe as early as next year. Interest rates will skyrocket and higher interest rates will double, or more likely triple, the interest on our national debt. It's a death spiral we may not be able to pull out of. Your standard of living will be severely impacted. Folks this is really serious! The value of your money will
shrink significantly, mortgage rates will skyrocket, further harming already awful home values, gas and energy going throught the roof and on and on. And yet the this coming financial meltdown is totally predictable and we can't, or shouldn't be bothered pissing around with partisan nonsense. Our Reps. know what needs to be done to avert a tragedy, but they won't do it unless you get on their asses to do what needs to be done.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 21, 2011, 01:44:51 AM
Taking a break from the Wings game I come back to the forum and take a look at the board. FF has been busy pushing his narrow partisan topics. Nobody much comments, or views, but FF is in his glory. Unfortunately, tiresome isn't much of a draw.

I don't think that's a fair statement.



We want to look at slowly improving employment rates and take hope. But the problem is, unless new jobs miracuously appear in really big numbers, it won't matter.

I'm convinced if we don't make some very serious progress on the deficits it won't matter. Our country is in a severe fiscal crisis and unless something is done, and soon, the bond market will collapse within the next few years, maybe as early as next year. Interest rates will skyrocket and higher interest rates will double, or more likely triple, the interest on our national debt. It's a death spiral we may not be able to pull out of. Your standard of living will be severely impacted. Folks this is really serious! The value of your money will
shrink significantly, mortgage rates will skyrocket, further harming already awful home values, gas and energy going throught the roof and on and on. And yet the this coming financial meltdown is totally predictable and we can't, or shouldn't be bothered pissing around with partisan nonsense. Our Reps. know what needs to be done to avert a tragedy, but they won't do it unless you get on their asses to do what needs to be done.

I agree, our economy is in the crapper, our rep's continue to play politic's and further their own agenda. And I write them weekly (not that they listen) but I do. You say they know what needs to be done to avert a tragedy; what exactly is that? And can it be done without trampling on our freedom's and the less fortunate?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 21, 2011, 04:31:30 AM
I don't think that's a fair statement.
It's his opinion, a completely wrong and uneducated opinion, but his none the less.
Quote

I agree, our economy is in the crapper, our rep's continue to play politic's and further their own agenda. And I write them weekly (not that they listen) but I do. You say they know what needs to be done to avert a tragedy; what exactly is that? And can it be done without trampling on our freedom's and the less fortunate?
Possibly, but that would take all the fun out of it.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on April 21, 2011, 06:45:15 AM
And can it be done without trampling on our freedom's and the less fortunate?

I think it is going to take a combination of tax increases, cuts in several social program, calling an end to our self-nominated role as the planet policeman, stop or limit our charitable role of dishing out monetary foreign aid givers, and reduction/elimination of fraud within the entitlement programs that exist today.

Now, getting a two party system with both having political agendas at polar opposites......won't happen without some major b i t c h slapping to our elected officials.

Pain will have to be inflected on all social classes to fix this....from one end to the other.  If it doesn't happen real soon, we will all feel much more pain as a result of the inability of our government being gridlocked by stupidity and ideology.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SMASH on April 21, 2011, 01:55:30 PM
I think it is going to take a combination of tax increases, cuts in several social program, calling an end to our self-nominated role as the planet policeman, stop or limit our charitable role of dishing out monetary foreign aid givers, and reduction/elimination of fraud within the entitlement programs that exist today.

Now, getting a two party system with both having political agendas at polar opposites......won't happen without some major b i t c h slapping to our elected officials.

Pain will have to be inflected on all social classes to fix this....from one end to the other.  If it doesn't happen real soon, we will all feel much more pain as a result of the inability of our government being gridlocked by stupidity and ideology.

Would you advocate us leaving the UN?

Cause that is what it will take for us to end the World Cop Program.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 21, 2011, 02:20:12 PM
Cause that is what it will take for us to end the World Cop Program.

Wrong. We're world cops because we're imperialists, not because we're the lackeys of an ineffective global bureaucracy. I swear, conspiracy theorists need to come up with a better boogeyman than the United Nations. Can we name a single thing, other than eliminating polio and smallpox, that the UN has done successfully? It's a shockingly small list, and it boils down to "we bombed a country in trouble".
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Fuzz on April 21, 2011, 02:30:08 PM
Would you advocate us leaving the UN?

Cause that is what it will take for us to end the World Cop Program.

Humm....my reply didn't post.

No, Smash.....I wouldn't advocate that at all.  There are other super powers on the council that do not play the role we seem to get sucked in to at every whim.  China and Russia seem to do just find and still hold a seat on the council. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on April 21, 2011, 09:29:04 PM
On what do you base the statement that demand for agricultural commodities is on the rise?


It's a simple fact.



(http://www.agmanager.info/livestock/marketing/graphs/Crops/Corn/CornUsage_files/Corn%20Supply%20&%20Demand_20945_image001.png)


(http://www.agmanager.info/livestock/marketing/graphs/Crops/Corn/EndStocks_files/Corn%20Supply%20&%20Demand_28325_image001.png)


(http://www.agmanager.info/livestock/marketing/graphs/Crops/Soybeans/sbusage_files/Soybean%20Annual%20Balance%20Sheet_14783_image001.png)


(http://www.agmanager.info/livestock/marketing/graphs/Crops/Soybeans/sbendstocks_files/Soybean%20Annual%20Balance%20Sheet_19476_image001.png)


http://www.agmanager.info/marketing/outlook/WASDE/default.asp#Corn%20Supply%20&%20Demand%20Charts (http://www.agmanager.info/marketing/outlook/WASDE/default.asp#Corn%20Supply%20&%20Demand%20Charts)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 21, 2011, 09:59:25 PM
Food prices are going up because there's, you know, more people in the world this year than last year. Also, the folks who were previously living on dirt and sticks suddenly have more affluence (see: china), and thus demand more calories.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 21, 2011, 10:19:01 PM
Food prices are going up because there's, you know, more people in the world this year than last year. Also, the folks who were previously living on dirt and sticks suddenly have more affluence (see: china), and thus demand more calories.

LF:
Not untrue. Course, it doesn't help that the U.S. is also burning up 40% of our corn crop to fuel the subsidized ethanol boondoggle.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on April 21, 2011, 10:28:09 PM
LF:
Not untrue. Course, it doesn't help that the U.S. is also burning up 40% of our corn crop to fuel the subsidized ethanol boondoggle.

Burn, baby, burn!!!!   ;D



Eh, if we weren't burning it up for ethanol, we'd be doing something else to use it up, like feeding it to cattle, or pigs, or people.   ;)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on April 22, 2011, 08:38:52 AM
Food prices are going up because there's, you know, more people in the world this year than last year. Also, the folks who were previously living on dirt and sticks suddenly have more affluence (see: china), and thus demand more calories.

You are right, Fly.  China is buying MUCH more corn and soybeans than ever before - as well as beef and pork, because they think it tastes better than dirt and sticks, and now they have the money to buy better food.

But something must be understood - the charts I posted were NOT world usage - they were just what we use here in the U.S., so they don't reflect the huge jump in usage of agricultural products around the world.

We have taken our food supply for granted for a long time - especially here in the United States.  We are seeing the beginning of a change in the world food supply.  Kind of exciting (as a farmer), and scary (as a consumer).
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 22, 2011, 05:37:29 PM
You are right, Fly.  China is buying MUCH more corn and soybeans than ever before - as well as beef and pork, because they think it tastes better than dirt and sticks, and now they have the money to buy better food.

But something must be understood - the charts I posted were NOT world usage - they were just what we use here in the U.S., so they don't reflect the huge jump in usage of agricultural products around the world.

We have taken our food supply for granted for a long time - especially here in the United States.  We are seeing the beginning of a change in the world food supply.  Kind of exciting (as a farmer), and scary (as a consumer).

Maybe the U.S.A., Canada, Austrailia, and a few other big food  producing countries, should form a cartel like OPEC. Naw that would
be fighting back.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on April 22, 2011, 06:27:42 PM
Maybe the U.S.A., Canada, Austrailia, and a few other big food  producing countries, should form a cartel like OPEC. Naw that would
be fighting back.

Sounds like Socialism to me...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on April 22, 2011, 07:24:29 PM
Maybe the U.S.A., Canada, Austrailia, and a few other big food  producing countries, should form a cartel like OPEC. Naw that would
be fighting back.

Hmmm...

We could trade them a bushel of corn for a barrel of oil.

When they say no, we'll just turn our corn into fuel.

Let them try to turn their oil into food!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 23, 2011, 12:02:11 AM
Taking a break from the Wings game I come back to the forum and take a look at the board. FF has been busy pushing his narrow partisan topics. Nobody much comments, or views, but FF is in his glory. Unfortunately, tiresome isn't much of a draw.
Like most things in life...you're looking at the numbers wrong.
My posts include attributions and can be factually checked out so that greatly reduces the type of commentary that your ilk normally receives....the type that disputes and corrects your inaccuracies.
Other numbers that I consider noteworthy would be the ratio between replies and views.
Low replies and high views means people aren't tuning in for personal battles but for the content of the message. And on that note I'll just have to say.....Winning!  ;D

We want to look at slowly improving employment rates and take hope. But the problem is, unless new jobs miracuously appear in really big numbers, it won't matter.
It's a shame your side (GOP) harped about jobs jobs jobs and yet when they won they themselves haven't done squat on jobs.

I'm convinced if we don't make some very serious progress on the deficits it won't matter.
You're only concerned because it's the new talking point. You shouldn't have advocated for the Bush extension.
Our country is in a severe fiscal crisis and unless something is done, and soon, the bond market will collapse within the next few years, maybe as early as next year. Interest rates will skyrocket and higher interest rates will double, or more likely triple, the interest on our national debt. It's a death spiral we may not be able to pull out of. Your standard of living will be severely impacted. Folks this is really serious! The value of your money will
shrink significantly, mortgage rates will skyrocket, further harming already awful home values, gas and energy going throught the roof and on and on. And yet the this coming financial meltdown is totally predictable and we can't, or shouldn't be bothered pissing around with partisan nonsense. Our Reps. know what needs to be done to avert a tragedy, but they won't do it unless you get on their asses to do what needs to be done.
You're the most partisan of the bunch.
I doubt you'll get on the repukes for their fiscal irresponsibility and demand they quit holding the US hostage.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 23, 2011, 12:02:29 AM
Obama Gas Price Commission (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yW7ph0yStA#)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 23, 2011, 12:42:31 AM
You are right, Fly.  China is buying MUCH more corn and soybeans than ever before - as well as beef and pork, because they think it tastes better than dirt and sticks, and now they have the money to buy better food.

But something must be understood - the charts I posted were NOT world usage - they were just what we use here in the U.S., so they don't reflect the huge jump in usage of agricultural products around the world.

We have taken our food supply for granted for a long time - especially here in the United States.  We are seeing the beginning of a change in the world food supply.  Kind of exciting (as a farmer), and scary (as a consumer).

I dunno, I personally think that rising transportation prices are going to force a more balanced farming system, rather than being dominated by soy and corn; nobody's going to pay 40 dollars an orange, or 20 dollars for a dozen eggs, but they might buy a local farmer's eggs or a local farmer's strawberries (who is also growing a bunch of other stuff).

Once gas hits 8-9 bucks a gallon (once, not if), I would think (hope) that we'd see an end of endless waves of soy and corn.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: 313girl on April 23, 2011, 01:55:23 AM
I think it is going to take a combination of tax increases, cuts in several social program, calling an end to our self-nominated role as the planet policeman, stop or limit our charitable role of dishing out monetary foreign aid givers, and reduction/elimination of fraud within the entitlement programs that exist today.

Now, getting a two party system with both having political agendas at polar opposites......won't happen without some major b i t c h slapping to our elected officials.

Pain will have to be inflected on all social classes to fix this....from one end to the other.  If it doesn't happen real soon, we will all feel much more pain as a result of the inability of our government being gridlocked by stupidity and ideology.

Agree with everything you've stated here Fuzz, including the b*tch slapping session  ;D. I've been screaming campaign finance reform as long as I can remember, which I sincerely believe goes to the heart of the problem. As long as either side is bought & paid for by big interests they'll never be able to govern objectively.

Looking at all of the budgets thrown out there, what is everyone's take on the "People's Budget" by the Progressive Caucus? Supposedly it eliminates the deficit by 2021. I like ending the oil subsidies and corporate welfare. I'm trying to find an actual copy of the proposal, if anyone finds it, please post the link.

 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: lordfly on April 23, 2011, 03:58:14 AM
The People's Budget is, like the Ryan budget, utterly pie in the sky. And because it has the horrible taxes increases, will never, EVER see the light of day. Ever.

So, more tax cuts for the rich, coming right up.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SidecarFlip on April 23, 2011, 03:40:13 PM
I have to disagree with John on the title of this thread.  We aren't 'done' yet, but it's getting closer every day...... ;D
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Monrover on April 23, 2011, 05:24:30 PM
The People's Budget is, like the Ryan budget, utterly pie in the sky. And because it has the horrible taxes increases, will never, EVER see the light of day. Ever.

So, more tax cuts for the rich, coming right up.


I am in favor of tax cuts for everyone...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax)

The system we have now is one that consistently relies upon robbing Peter to pay Paul. And Paul is complicit in the robbery, by voting to do so.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 23, 2011, 05:57:09 PM
I am in favor of tax cuts for everyone...

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax[/url])

The system we have now is one that consistently relies upon robbing Peter to pay Paul. And Paul is complicit in the robbery, by voting to do so.
The Ultra Rich would just buy everything bulk outside of the US and have it shipped in, thereby avoiding paying taxes once again.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Monrover on April 23, 2011, 06:03:54 PM
The Ultra Rich would just buy everything bulk outside of the US and have it shipped in, thereby avoiding paying taxes once again.

You are so obsessed with the ultra-rich that you ignore the opportunity that exists to resolve our current financial/tax problems. Why don't you read the link and then post?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 23, 2011, 10:28:05 PM
You are so obsessed with the ultra-rich that you ignore the opportunity that exists to resolve our current financial/tax problems. Why don't you read the link and then post?
Just stating a fact could hardly be considered obsessed.
Your own link states:
Quote
Opponents of the FairTax argue that imposing a national retail sales tax would drive transactions underground and create a vast underground economy.

The FairTax is anything but fair...in fact it's regressive.
Quote
A regressive tax means it impacts people with lower incomes more than it does those with high incomes. For example: People who earn a poverty-level wage are likely to spend all of their wages every year, so they are taxed on 100 percent of their earnings. Rich people, though, might only spend a fraction of their annual income, and are only taxed on that portion. So the wealthy person pays a lower tax rate than the poor person.
[url]http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jan/23/adding-fairtax/[/url] ([url]http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jan/23/adding-fairtax/[/url])

Quote
This is just one more scam by which the rich would pay even less tax than they do now relative to their income and the rest of us would end up paying more. The graduated income tax is much "fairer" than the so-called Fair Tax program advocated by these know-nothings.
[url]http://mythandhope.blogspot.com/2008/08/fair-tax-for-corporations-and-class-war.html[/url] ([url]http://mythandhope.blogspot.com/2008/08/fair-tax-for-corporations-and-class-war.html[/url])
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on April 23, 2011, 11:10:55 PM
You are so obsessed with the ultra-rich that you ignore the opportunity that exists to resolve our current financial/tax problems. Why don't you read the link and then post?
You assume too much. I did read the link.

It explains many of the pros and cons regarding the subject. I also read in the article how it states that the problem I described would be taken care of, IE the border patrol.

The same one that keeps all those pesky Mexicans out of our country.

You are so obsessed with protecting the ultra rich, you don't see any of the drawbacks.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on April 25, 2011, 04:16:47 PM
Dang!  I hate that.  Only part of my post actually posted.  Be back later after I fix it.  Sorry.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: jbs49238 on April 26, 2011, 05:37:20 AM
Just stating a fact could hardly be considered obsessed.
Your own link states:The FairTax is anything but fair...in fact it's regressive.

Ahhh yes, the ol' dollars are the same as percentages theory.

Logic Fail!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 27, 2011, 08:35:56 PM
Some folks in the forum are frothing at the mouth about how cutting  government spending will hurt the poor folks and seniors. Yet they don't seem to take into account the hurt high deficits and the FED's actions are putting on them, and most everyone else, now!

The humongous deficits we're generating are being paid for by the folks now. The FED floods the market with cheap dollars created out of thin air. Big banks borrow this "money" from the FED for practically nothing, and they then buy U.S. Treasury Bonds that pay higher interest rates. Guess who is on the hook to pay these higher interest rates and pay off the bonds? The government now has the money to fund the deficits to pay for entitlements etc. without having to "directly" tax the people to pay for them.  It is a fantastic deal...... for the big banks and the politicians. 

Yet in the midst of this magic the value of the dollar is tanking. You don't have to be an expert on the dollar index to figure this out. What kind of interest rate can you get on your money in a savings account or a CD? By the time you factor in inflation and the government's dividend tax you're going in the hole, big time. Then there is the effect of a devalued dollar on the price of gas and food.

Folks there is a scam going on, and you and I are't in on it.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on April 28, 2011, 03:02:58 PM


www.jimbakkershow.com (http://www.jimbakkershow.com)


I just thought I would share with my fellow comrades that my dog turned on the Jim Bakker show today, Sad to report... Its the sixth seal time folks!!!! 

But if you hurry, you can join the end of the world instant food club!..  for as little as 20 dollars a month you can join.. for a 100 dollars a month they will send you enough food for 250 servings.. This food has everything you need... and when the end days are here.. People will not be able to use paper money... or gold.. so Smash and John you are going to be SOL!

You will need bags of this instant food, any plumber or electrician will gladly accept food for services..

If you act soon... because they are running out!..  Water bottles.. potassium iodine..  everything you need will be supplied..

Livewire.. I hope you have a good harvest this fall.. because its the last one you will be able to do.. it says so in the bible..  Start at Revelations 6:12...

so we don't need to worry about anything..  Well some will have Jubilee... that is if you order your packets today!!!!!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: eriemermaid on April 28, 2011, 03:54:10 PM
jimbakker??  For some reason I thought he was dead . . .  :-\   I must have him confused with some other nut!   :o
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on April 28, 2011, 04:41:49 PM
jimbakker??  For some reason I thought he was dead . . .  :-\   I must have him confused with some other nut!   :o


No Tammy Fay passed away a few years ago..  Jim Bakker comes on right before the 700 club...  I have to turn on the TV if I want to hear if there are any bad storms or tornado warning because we don't have a warning system..

So I had it on a local network.. for some reason, Oscar either changes it to Univision, or the Christian TV Network.. 

It was kind of funny... Jim Bakker was telling how its the end times.. then selling survivor food..  then the 700 club came on, and their lead story was about this preacher friend of Pat Robertson had died.. Pat Robertson said he had met this reverend back in 1973.. and Pat Robertson was telling this preacher about his idea of the 700 club and a christian TV network....  Robertson said that his friend told him not to do it... because in 1973 he thought (then) we were in end times and that the network would never air...

So... I don't know..  but we are done regardless..  I think I will just leave on an ice flow this winter on Lake Erie... all things considered ya know... being 12-12-12- is coming up and all..  I will just take some of Jim Bakkers survival food and Iodine tablets with me..
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on April 28, 2011, 06:19:20 PM
Yup, Chicken, I saw the movie 2012.  It was pretty nasty.

I think I'm going to buy a boat that can be submerged, to survive the 200 foot waves, when they come.  I better stock up on Ramen noodles, too.   ;D
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SidecarFlip on April 29, 2011, 12:58:22 AM
Isn't baker the hardware store on Dixie that sells welding equipment?

It's almost warm enough to get the bike(s) out, especially the one that gets 60mpg.  That will be my daily driver until it gets cold again.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 29, 2011, 08:56:14 PM
Well Chicken, and her dog, have collaborated on a couple weighty posts wired in from Mocksville. Inflation, falling living standards, dollar tanking, high unemployment, brewing financial bubbles, dangerous levels of government debt and deficits. Pretty funny stuff. 
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 29, 2011, 09:33:58 PM
Well Chicken, and her dog, have collaborated on a couple weighty posts wired in from Mocksville. Inflation, falling living standards, dollar tanking, high unemployment, brewing financial bubbles, dangerous levels of government debt and deficits. Pretty funny stuff.
You're the most partisan curmudgeon I've ever encountered and your frenzied Chicken-Little dance is just your way of furthering the agenda....to attack Obama (and Democrats) for political gain.

You care not about the damage you cause along the way.

Which explains how the US arrived at all the negative things you mentioned.....failed GOP policies.

Don't forget the meltdown happened while Bush was Prez.

Obama was left with a colossal mess.

Recovery would have started long ago had the Party of NO joined the effort.

But nooooo......they speak with one voice and the person calling the shots is a moron.

People are finally realizing that the right is, and has always been, wrong.....next election your side will be hurtin' for certain.

So every time you scream about the sky falling.....I think yeah but your side caused it.

Sure can't count on the righties to do anything positive to fix their mess.

We'll have to be satisfied with the lemonade the Dems created.

Enough with the salt in the wounds from the worthless Repukes/TeaBaggers
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 29, 2011, 09:59:23 PM
You're the most partisan curmudgeon I've ever encountered and your frenzied Chicken-Little dance is just your way of furthering the agenda....to attack Obama (and Democrats) for political gain.

You care not about the damage you cause along the way.

Which explains how the US arrived at all the negative things you mentioned.....failed GOP policies.

Don't forget the meltdown happened while Bush was Prez.

Obama was left with a colossal mess.

Recovery would have started long ago had the Party of NO joined the effort.

But nooooo......they speak with one voice and the person calling the shots is a moron.

People are finally realizing that the right is, and has always been, wrong.....next election your side will be hurtin' for certain.

So every time you scream about the sky falling.....I think yeah but your side caused it.

Sure can't count on the righties to do anything positive to fix their mess.

We'll have to be satisfied with the lemonade the Dems created.

Enough with the salt in the wounds from the worthless Repukes/TeaBaggers

FF:
You write: "You're the most partisan curmudgeon I've ever encountered." Yet you'll notice in my last two posts "I" didn't mention Obama, or either party.  All I did was describe a very worrysome situation. Then "you" go on to spew a hateful screed of vitriolic, partisan name calling. Priceless hypocrisy.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 29, 2011, 10:26:02 PM
FF:
You write: "You're the most partisan curmudgeon I've ever encountered." Yet you'll notice in my last two posts "I" didn't mention Obama, or either party. Then "you" go on to spew a hateful screed of vitriolic, partisan name calling. All I did was describe a very worrysome situation. Why so defensive?
Yet you attributed this to on attack on Dems.
You've done enough partisan attacks that it's like being at a concert where the audience can recite the songs without help from the singer.

And your talking points are straight out of the right-wing playbook....you're not fooling anybody.

The Conservative Caucus Party of Monroe County pictures indicate you're a member.....and you always vote Republican.....but if you feel the need to play Pinocchio by pretending to be non-biased....well have at it.....won't be the first time you've ever lied on MT...nor do I expect it'll be your last.

You're always placing blame on the Dems, which is why your comments garner replies.....correcting your blatant errors....and then you avoid the correction and make some other asinine statement or reply with some other inane comment meant to divert attention away from the failed assertion you've previously made...it's an endless cycle.....may as well ask if anybody wants to buy some ducks.  8*

But I can't stress this point enough....your frenzied Chicken-Little dance is annoying.

* Edited to change party to caucus.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on April 29, 2011, 10:47:32 PM
You've done enough partisan attacks that it's like being at a concert where the audience can recite the songs without help from the singer.

And your talking points are straight out of the right-wing playbook....you're not fooling anybody.

The Conservative Party of Monroe County pictures indicate you're a member.....and you always vote Republican.....but if you feel the need to play Pinocchio by pretending to be non-biased....well have at it.....won't be the first time you've ever lied on MT...nor do I expect it'll be your last.

You're always placing blame on the Dems, which is why your comments garner replies.....correcting your blatant errors....and then you avoid the correction and make some other asinine statement or reply with some other inane comment meant to divert attention away from the failed assertion you've previously made...it's an endless cycle.....may as well ask if anybody wants to buy some ducks.  8*

But I can't stress this point enough....your frenzied Chicken-Little dance is annoying.

FF:
Hope you feel better. I'd reply, but it is such a waste of time. I'm sure 
you'll find somebody willing to engage in yet another one of your pointless, angry, pissing contests that makes everyone in the forum sick to their stomach.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on April 29, 2011, 10:52:40 PM
FF:
Hope you feel better. I'd reply, but it is such a waste of time. I'm sure 
you'll find somebody willing to engage in yet another one of your pointless, angry, pissing contests that makes everyone in the forum sick to their stomach.

Speak for yourself John..  It doesn't make everyone sick to their stomachs...
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on April 29, 2011, 10:59:01 PM
FF:
Hope you feel better. I'd reply, but it is such a waste of time. I'm sure 
you'll find somebody willing to engage in yet another one of your pointless, angry, pissing contests that makes everyone in the forum sick to their stomach.
Frankly your reply appears to reinforce my point about diversions.  ;)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on April 30, 2011, 02:45:49 PM

Well John, you seem determined to continually bump this topic up, as you usually do, with repeated vagueness and then dodging reality. 

Why not try to answer to FF’s two comments of importance?

The Republican policies led to the economic disaster that we are still deeply mired in, and that instead of correcting that they upped the ante and are working hard at total and complete obliteration of this country as we know it.

Republican’s howled at the moon about deficits and the National debt under Clinton.  It was all there was about governing at the time according to them.  Funny how that went under the bus when that political spinjob won them all three branches.  Then wa-la, deficits don’t matter – national debt doesn’t matter.  Instead of reducing the deficit and national debt they cut taxes to the very wealthy using the available funds that could have paid down the debt and went even further and reduced to the tune of increasing the deficits even more than it would by doing so.

After all of the increasing the deficit and national debt under their watch what did they do when they lost the majorities?  Went back to the Clinton years of crying about deficits and the debt as if the disaster they deliberately caused DELIBERATELY CAUSED never happened.

Then after Obama was elected the meme was “we need jobs”, which is still true.  Funny how anything to help “jobs” was fought and now the big thing is “kill off more jobs”  See, that was the FAIL that we the people missed.  When the Republican’s said “jobs” needed fixed, we assumed it meant more jobs, not the reality of what they are doing and reducing jobs.

So, you ad those you spin for say that the only things that matters; not jobs, not the middle class, not working people; but the only things are cutting wages of working people and reducing taxes on the wealthy.  How many states, and now your idols plan cuts social programs to shift for a tax cut to the wealthy or corporations?  I could at last have a little consideration for all of your crying if it was actually reducing the deficits and national debt rather than just taking away from the poor to give to the rich.

I will give it to you, John, that you agree that taxes should go up as well.  Unfortunately none of your glorious idols will even consider that.  What is worse is that the Dem,s are told that spending has to go down and they say “how much, and tax increases are “off the table”  But funny tax cuts are “how much” and not off the table.

I will say that your idols did come up with a good scam.  The voucher program to eliminate social programs is a good one.  Sell the idea that companies can take over, for profit, and make it cost less and then eliminate the programs.  Just like the Ryan plan of Medicare elimination.  You know as well as I that it is exactly that… elimination.   Your people want to eliminate Medicare, Social Security, and education all under the same guise.  The Republican argument that you can have it if you can pay for it yourself, and prices will go up and Republican’s are already reducing wages and working very hard to kill unions so they plummet to rock bottom quick and hard.

So, my question is:  Why should anyone listen to any plan the Republicans have?  They have a proven track record of depressing the working people as far as possible while giving to the wealthy?  How and where does that help?  Oh, I really hope you use the tired line that they create jobs. Please, pretty please…
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: SidecarFlip on April 30, 2011, 05:47:01 PM
"we are all but done'......

Yep.  Getting closer every day....... ;D
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: John Kopke on May 03, 2011, 10:55:25 PM
"we are all but done'......

Yep.  Getting closer every day....... ;D

Yes Sidecar we are getting closer every day. Been a lot of bashing of the Tea party folks. My experience, as part of, and with these folks has been positive. We don't have gatherings and trash the site as we saw the left do in Madison. Unlike them, we aren't demanding the government do more for us, but less. We want what is best for the country in general, and if sacrifices are needed, we're willing to do our part.

Now I'm sure that I'll get hammered for this post by those on the left,
it's expected. But I'll tell you this. In my book the Tea Party folks are Win, Place and Show, the bedrock of America, and the type of folks upon which this nation was built.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Frenchfry on May 04, 2011, 12:43:04 AM
(http://www.bluehogreport.com/wp-content/uploads/insani-tea-party-sac0415cd.jpg)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on May 06, 2011, 11:54:12 PM
Quote
WASHINGTON (AP) - American companies are on a hiring spree. Businesses delivered a jolt of strength to the economy by creating 268,000 jobs in April, the biggest monthly total in more than five years. The gains were solid across an array of industries, even beleaguered construction.

It was the third month in a row of at least 200,000 new jobs. The private sector has added jobs for 14 consecutive months. Even a slight rise in the unemployment rate to 9 percent appears to be a quirk.

The job growth was better than economists expected and perhaps the strongest sign yet that what they call a "virtuous cycle" has taken hold: When people spend more, corporate earnings rise, leading to more hiring and then more spending.

Companies have added more than 200,000 jobs for three months in a row.

"This was really a good report because ultimately it is all about jobs," said Joel Naroff, president of Naroff Economic Advisors. "More and more, it is looking as if the recovery is on track despite the headwinds it is facing."

Those include higher prices for crude oil and gas. But energy prices fell sharply earlier this week, apparently reflecting lower consumption in the United States and a stronger dollar. Analysts think the price of gas may have peaked for the summer at about $4 a gallon.

The rise in the unemployment rate, to 9 percent in April from 8.8 percent the month, was the first increase since November. But it appeared to be because of a temporary disparity in two surveys the government uses to track jobs.

Wall Street was pleased by Friday's report from the Labor Department. The Dow Jones industrials rose more than 150 points shortly after the opening bell. The Dow closed up 55 points, or 0.4 percent.

Businesses added jobs in April across the economy. Retailers, factories, financial companies, education, health care and the construction industry all reported gains.

And the government said the job gains it reported for March and February turned out to be even stronger than previously thought. Private employers have now added jobs for 14 straight months.

[url]http://apnews.myway.com//article/20110507/D9N29JSO0.html[/url] ([url]http://apnews.myway.com//article/20110507/D9N29JSO0.html[/url])
OH NOES!!!! WE IS ALL DOOMZORDED!!!!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on May 07, 2011, 05:08:03 AM


Good post Fluffy.. I know people who have short and/or selective memory..  So for those that do..

Remember when the stimulus was first started... Projection were for the jobs to really start growing in 2010-2011...

I wonder why the Republicans still insist on these corporate tax cuts... There is growth without them.. 

at least half of the problem with the deficit is because our Government has not been taking in enough revenue.. it has had a steady loss of revenue in the past ten years.. with the Bush tax cuts.. and I am talking about all of them.. not just the income tax... It was like a massive cut to the throat.. 

Then the recession.. with fewer people working..

yep.. we would only be half in debt if Bush would have just left taxes alone.. but no, he had to expand the size of Government.. Start two wars.. cut taxes and give out more subsidies.. To Companies that were not even in trouble.. Companies that were making record breaking profits..

I think people need to accept this.. maybe it will help to understand why we need to raise taxes!..

Brazil spent their way out of the recession.. Their economy is going into negative percent unemployment... meaning they have more jobs than people to fill them..  Interesting how and why their Country has a booming economy... 

Folks should read up about it.. kind of interesting the action they took when the Recession hit...

Please before the geography and miniverse challenged start responding... Brazil is not a 3rd world or "developing" country... Their economy is becoming a major world player..

To think their president that implemented the plan.. I believe was a Union Brick Layer.. with a third grade education.. 

60 minutes did a story about it a while back.. and since I live where I do.. There have been various articles over the past year in the Tampa Tribune and the St. Pete times about the progress they have made and the impact of what it has had on the Brazilian Economy...

Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Brian Beneteau on May 07, 2011, 07:56:05 AM

Good post Fluffy.. I know people who have short and/or selective memory..  So for those that do..

Remember when the stimulus was first started... Projection were for the jobs to really start growing in 2010-2011...

I wonder why the Republicans still insist on these corporate tax cuts... There is growth without them.. 

at least half of the problem with the deficit is because our Government has not been taking in enough revenue.. it has had a steady loss of revenue in the past ten years.. with the Bush tax cuts.. and I am talking about all of them.. not just the income tax... It was like a massive cut to the throat.. 

Then the recession.. with fewer people working..

yep.. we would only be half in debt if Bush would have just left taxes alone.. but no, he had to expand the size of Government.. Start two wars.. cut taxes and give out more subsidies.. To Companies that were not even in trouble.. Companies that were making record breaking profits..

I think people need to accept this.. maybe it will help to understand why we need to raise taxes!..

Brazil spent their way out of the recession.. Their economy is going into negative percent unemployment... meaning they have more jobs than people to fill them..  Interesting how and why their Country has a booming economy... 

Folks should read up about it.. kind of interesting the action they took when the Recession hit...

Please before the geography and miniverse challenged start responding... Brazil is not a 3rd world or "developing" country... Their economy is becoming a major world player..

To think their president that implemented the plan.. I believe was a Union Brick Layer.. with a third grade education.. 

60 minutes did a story about it a while back.. and since I live where I do.. There have been various articles over the past year in the Tampa Tribune and the St. Pete times about the progress they have made and the impact of what it has had on the Brazilian Economy...
Why not just give corporate tax cuts to corporations who bring their jobs back to the US, and screw the rest of 'em with a nice little tax when bringing in foreign made products? Doesn't matter if Democrat or Republican, there is enough blame to go around. Remember TARP money? Remember we are still in a war? Perhaps if the American people would have been given the sums of money to "spend our way out of a recession" we would not be where we are. The banks received their money to bail them out of their poor lending practices, and now they are tight fisted with the money. Perhaps we need our next President to have less of an "education in politics" and a better understanding of how to take care of the American public. And to clarify, I am not saying only Obama, but Bush included!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Baby Hitler on May 07, 2011, 09:13:43 AM
http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20110507/BUSINESS/105080323/Oil-coming-down-quickly-went-up (http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20110507/BUSINESS/105080323/Oil-coming-down-quickly-went-up)
Quote
The dollar's advance against the euro curbed commodities' appeal as an alternate investment. Money managers made near-record bets on high commodity prices in April.


Oil may decline further if the dollar extends its gains, said Stephen Schork, president of Villanova, Pa.- based Schork Group Inc.

"If the dollar continues to strengthen, we go back to $85," he said. "I'm adamant about that."


It's the end of the world!!!!!!
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Brian Beneteau on May 07, 2011, 10:08:44 AM
[url]http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20110507/BUSINESS/105080323/Oil-coming-down-quickly-went-up[/url] ([url]http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20110507/BUSINESS/105080323/Oil-coming-down-quickly-went-up[/url])
It's the end of the world!!!!!!

Silver and gold lowered more due to the increased margin rates imposed by Comex than by an increased US Dollar. With the move by the CME to "let air out of the bubble," they made purchasing "paper" silver on margin less attractive, and thus forced a drop. CME announced a margin increase of 13% on April 28 that would be enforced after business close Friday, April 29. When the Asian market opened last Sunday night, they had a jump on the US market and prices dove 12% in 30 minutes or so.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Professor H on May 07, 2011, 02:43:15 PM
To bad they don't do this to oil and you'd see the prices drop and speculators get out of that market also.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Brian Beneteau on May 07, 2011, 02:49:02 PM
To bad they don't do this to oil and you'd see the prices drop and speculators get out of that market also.
That was being discussed on CNBC yesterday, and oil was dropping. ;)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: The Chicken on May 07, 2011, 04:16:18 PM
Why not just give corporate tax cuts to corporations who bring their jobs back to the US, and screw the rest of 'em with a nice little tax when bringing in foreign made products? Doesn't matter if Democrat or Republican, there is enough blame to go around. Remember TARP money? Remember we are still in a war? Perhaps if the American people would have been given the sums of money to "spend our way out of a recession" we would not be where we are.


Ummm...  If you have read about Brazil...  You will find, that is one of the things they did.. Give money to people to spend...   I would really hate to spoil good reading skills by telling you more...

I strongly suggest you try to find out about Brazil....
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on May 08, 2011, 08:02:34 AM
The numbers don't lie.  As one who has struggled with debt, I know how hard it is to get out of.

We ARE all but done, folks.


http://www.youtube.com/embed/VtVbUmcQSuk (http://www.youtube.com/embed/VtVbUmcQSuk)   
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Monrover on May 08, 2011, 09:57:29 AM
The numbers don't lie.  As one who has struggled with debt, I know how hard it is to get out of.

We ARE all but done, folks.


[url]http://www.youtube.com/embed/VtVbUmcQSuk[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/embed/VtVbUmcQSuk[/url])


+1
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: Monrover on May 08, 2011, 10:02:37 AM

Ummm...  If you have read about Brazil...  You will find, that is one of the things they did.. Give money to people to spend...    I would really hate to spoil good reading skills by telling you more...

I strongly suggest you try to find out about Brazil....


Letting people have money to spend is best accomplished by tax cuts and reductions, not by borrowing and then giving the borrowed money to spend; only to repay the principal and interest.

When you use your premise to promote economic growth, you are relying upon the 'broken window fallacy,' discussed by Bastiat and others.

Finally, here is a great little lesson on the methods of spending money.

The 4 Ways to Spend Money by Milton Friedman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un4-eI1T71E&feature=related#)
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on May 08, 2011, 10:56:29 AM
The numbers don't lie.  As one who has struggled with debt, I know how hard it is to get out of.

We ARE all but done, folks.


[url]http://www.youtube.com/embed/VtVbUmcQSuk[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/embed/VtVbUmcQSuk[/url])   



Facts don’t lie, but people sure do lie when they spin them.  (not meant toward you but rather politicians and their media spinners and "think tanks")

When you are in debt, Live, do you cut your spending and take a voluntary pay cut equaling that spending cut?

Well, go back a step, do you voluntarily reduce your pay for a decade without reducing spending then suddenly decide that it is NOW a problem, but was not then?

Fact:  During Clinton’s Terms the Republican’s overpowering message was the deficits and National Debt.  It worked too.  Clinton balanced the budget and was on track to pay down the National Debt.

Fact: The Republican’s ran on deficits and said that they needed a majority in both houses and the White House too to get it paid down. 

Fact:  The Republican’s won with that strategy and instead of paying down the National debt and balancing the budget they gave massive tax cuts and increased spending.  As Cheney said “Deficits don’t matter”.

Fact: Two wars were kept off the books to make a very disastrous budget look better.

Obama was elected President and guess what?  Once again the deficits and National debt are the big theme.

Fact:  None of the Republican proposals, bills, legislations, etc. is intended to reduce the debt.  They are tax shifts.  Cut social programs and give that money to the wealthy as even more tax cuts.  That is both state and federal level. 

That would be the equivalent of you reducing your personal food bill by 50% so you can take an equal pay cut voluntarily and do nothing at all to pay your outstanding credit card bills.  (Don’t forget, you took a voluntary pay cut 12 years ago and that is why you couldn’t pay your credit card you used for those years to eat.)


Opinion part:

Everyone is swallowing the Republican spin and not seeing reality.  When they are out of power the big thing is deficits and National debt, but when they get the majority they are not important and they do the opposite.

What are the things being cut or are the Republican’s Hell bent on eliminating?  Education, Social Security, Medicare, and unions.
Education does have a cost; it also has a huge benefit.  An educated workforce is far superior to one that is not.  Think of it as an employer Live.  How good would it be for you to not be able to hire basically anyone to work for you because they can’t read, write, or do basic math?  Some say that that is fear mongering, but the voucher programs the R’s push are thinly veiled plans for the elimination of the programs. 

Social Security is self sustaining.  What the right pushed so much is that the Govt. collected far more than it needed for many decades and borrowed that money for spending on other things.  Basically, instead of letting that overage sit in accounts doing nothing it was invested.  In this case the Govt. bought it as loans with interest payment due.  Now, the far right pushes that the money is gone.  But, what it really means is that the govt. owes Social Security for the loans it got from them and now some want to eliminate that debt to Social Security and just not pay it back.  That is what eliminating SS is about.  Get rid of that big debt owed.  What they don’t say is that by doing so it means for the last however many decades you have been paying far more Federal taxes than those wealthier because they don’t pay as much into SS.  Because not only did you pay Federal Taxes but now they want all of your SS payment to be defacto federal taxes too.

Medicare is a problem, and I won’t try to say it is not.  The answer is still what it always has been.  Get healthcare costs under control for everyone.  Let Medicare negotiate drug costs.  Right now the R’s made it so they cannot and must take whatever inflated cost the drug company’s demand.  Being able to negotiate costs down because of the huge buying power just makes big sense. That means many billions right there.

However, eliminating it is still not the answer.  The current proposals convert the cost to seniors.  Right now, it is giving the seniors a voucher for a fixed amount that does not increase (but may decrease).  They take that and buy private insurance on the market.  Now, all private insurance has increased about 35% a year and far outpaced Medicare.  What it comes down to is that there is no way that the vouchers will continue to pay for private health insurance without additional huge outlays for seniors.  Secondly, it is taking a gigantic pool that has huge power to negotiate lower outlays to many separate private companies that will not have that huge pool to negotiate as effectively with.

Unions; the big bad boogey man.  Why the big push by Republican’s to eliminate them?  I can buy the arguments of the huge cost to government in public worker payroll and benefits.  Here is the thing… unions can and do negotiate DOWNWARD too.  It makes no sense at all to push to eliminate them when they can negotiate them downward.  Aside from that, it isn’t just public employee unions, and cutting peoples pay is going to further reduce tax revenues.  So, the middle class will pay less taxes because they make less and the wealthy will pay less because they will get more tax cuts…  That will mean even more cuts needed to the budget.

My personal opinion is that if they can eliminate unions, both public and private, then wages will plummet fast and hard to very low levels, and because corporations are “global” the cost of goods will not fall much if at all.  Sound like fun?  Like I said, that is my opinion, but even with unions wages are going down, but the unions are slowing that fall.  Pensions do seem to be a problem both public and private.  It doesn’t seem to be the correct policy when seniors can have half million dollar houses and get a new truck and or car each year.  I am not saying that they should not live well, but it does seem to be excessively well.  Can anything be done about that immediately?  No.  Corporations and the Govt. entered into legal contracts.  Unless you want to eliminate the rule of law and say that contracts are not enforceable, then they have to be honored.  New ones can be corrected; however.  Oh, and once again because of the local distortionist; I have no problem with taxing pensions as income.

Maybe there is a need for massive spending cuts, Live.  Why does it have to be at the expense of social programs and not other things?  Why is the military budget, which is far more than half of each year’s budget not affected?  Do we really need to spend nearly three quarters of a trillion dollars each year?  Is it correct to continue the generous Bush tax cuts that created a big drop in federal revenue?  Do we really NEED to have massive corporate welfare?  Those appear to be “off the table” and only those that affect the little guy are “on the table”.


To put it in your family budget, Live.  Since you took a voluntary pay cut for twelve years and used your credit cards to eat, now you can only cut food to make up the shortfall.  So, you have to reduce food but still keep the boat and snowmobile and two trucks and take a vacation.  And don’t even think of getting that pay cut back, or get another source of income, heck take another pay cut instead.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on May 08, 2011, 10:57:43 AM
Letting people have money to spend is best accomplished by tax cuts and reductions, not by borrowing and then giving the borrowed money to spend; only to repay the principal and interest.

When you use your premise to promote economic growth, you are relying upon the 'broken window fallacy,' discussed by Bastiat and others.

Finally, here is a great little lesson on the methods of spending money.




I don’t understand your argument.  I am not insulting you or anything, I just don’t get it.

For what I want to say I am eliminating the “best accomplished” because that is subjective.

It SEEMS that you are saying that Borrowing above normal levels to give a onetime payment is equal to spending cuts below normal levels.  To say it different: one is 100% budget plus 10% (as a direct one time payout) and the other is 100% minus 10% as tax cuts etc.  TO make a direct comparison one would need to have constant parameters.  A tax cut of 10% less than normal revenues compared to direct payment of 10% below normal revenue.  At least that is the way it seems you said it.

This government gave massive tax cuts to the wealthy and then borrowed a few trillion to pay for them: how is that any different?
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: ducksoup on May 08, 2011, 10:58:52 AM
Yes Sidecar we are getting closer every day. Been a lot of bashing of the Tea party folks. My experience, as part of, and with these folks has been positive. We don't have gatherings and trash the site as we saw the left do in Madison. Unlike them, we aren't demanding the government do more for us, but less. We want what is best for the country in general, and if sacrifices are needed, we're willing to do our part.

Now I'm sure that I'll get hammered for this post by those on the left,
it's expected. But I'll tell you this. In my book the Tea Party folks are Win, Place and Show, the bedrock of America, and the type of folks upon which this nation was built.

Nicely done duck of answering post 688.
Title: Re: We're All But Done
Post by: livewire on May 08, 2011, 11:22:31 AM