MonroeTalks.com

Categories => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: BigRedDog on March 25, 2014, 08:21:15 PM

Title: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 25, 2014, 08:21:15 PM
Our youngest daughter has been going through boxes and boxes of old photos I've taken over the years.  Yes, there are lots of them and most of them I could give her all the details just like they were yesterday.

She found one group that she asked me about and for the life of me I can't remember all the details...  I remember being there and I remember taking the pictures but for the life of me I don't remember what all the 'issues' were.

I'm guessing it's in the mid 70s...

The 'key' to someone will be the name of the local motel although Google doesn't find anything.

There are two different pictures of two different signs and I'm 95% sure it says the Shibui Motel.  They had a pool, a trout pond and a driving range.

 I'm guessing we were maybe around Mio.  The ground has some gentle rolling hills.  Maybe as far north as Grayling or even Gaylord but we did spend quite a bit of time around Mio at the time so that's why I'm thinking that area.

There was a big environmental 'demonstration' going on at the time...  Several MSP cars and logs trying to block roads.  There was an ambulance and a trooper treating someone. 

I know it was some kind of environmental issue because one sign we can read says "Why poison our children and grandchildren".  Some of the demonstrators are even hanging someone (a stuffed effigy)!

I know we weren't involved in any way...  I think maybe something we just happened onto.

I don't see The Fuzz or any bras being burned so it's beyond the 60s!!!

My wife is going over the pictures and remembers being with me but she does't recall the 'why and what' of the demonstration either.

I know a few of our MTers spent some time in that area over the years so maybe they'll recall.

I'll get the scanner out and scan a few pictures and post them later.  The picture of MSP cars blocking an entrance is pretty neat.

OK... updated info before I even posted...  We found the Shibui resort on Google... it is in the Mio area.

Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 25, 2014, 08:57:11 PM
I did find the motel on Google maps...  it's about 5 miles north of Mio and just off M-33.  It all matches some of the pictures I have...

just need to figure out the what and why of the demonstration!

https://www.google.com/maps/place/295+W+Miller+Rd/@44.6912613,-84.1409512,17106m/data= (https://www.google.com/maps/place/295+W+Miller+Rd/@44.6912613,-84.1409512,17106m/data=)!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x8820850991a783e9:0x605aa4a28ccd8df8
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: excelsior on March 25, 2014, 09:42:21 PM
I suspect you ran across the final chapter of Michigan's largest agricultural disaster.

You must have been in Mio mid 70s.  The State of Michigan constructed a huge clay grave and buried tens of thousands of cattle contaminated with PBB around Mio.

(http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C4&Date=20120923&Category=NEWS06&ArtNo=309230153&Ref=V2&MaxW=300&Border=0&Toxic-aftermath)


Decades later, PBB contamination suspected in illnesses and deaths
http://www.freep.com/article/20120923/NEWS06/309230153/Toxic-aftermath (http://www.freep.com/article/20120923/NEWS06/309230153/Toxic-aftermath)
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: Maverick on March 25, 2014, 11:43:29 PM
BRD
Shibui is North of Mio to the big curve heading towards Lewiston. Instead of turning right on I believe 32, you torn left and head basically towards Grayling. Shibui is on the left and has a japanese theme roof on most of their structures. They used to have a nice grass runway for small aircraft too. It is still there but I couldn't tell you the current name.

Mav
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: Maverick on March 25, 2014, 11:46:12 PM
The cattle were buried on  Pennsylvania rd just off of Mt Tom rd. I own 80 acres and a hunting camp just north of their on Bailey rd that goes into Cummins. I remember as a kid seeing the huge pit and I remember the PCB problem of the time.

Mav
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 25, 2014, 11:53:02 PM
We are neighbors.  I own acreage in Aetna Township (Mecosta) for hunting and mushrooms....
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 26, 2014, 12:11:54 AM
According to the article, PBB's are here in Monroe County in the Raisin River too...

How nice.

Won't be goiing Kayaking anytime soon....
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 08:12:52 AM
I suspect you ran across the final chapter of Michigan's largest agricultural disaster.

You must have been in Mio mid 70s.  The State of Michigan constructed a huge clay grave and buried tens of thousands of cattle contaminated with PBB around Mio.


That was it excelsior :) :) :)

Thank you very much.  That jogged my memory and it's all coming back to me now.  I still don't remember 'why' we were there that day though and I doubt you can dig deep enough to figure that one out.

We were young and just married and I had a fancy (for the time anyway) new camera...   a Pentax Spotmatic II...  top end for consumer level photography.  The pictures are all in B&W and I developed my own film and printed my own photos.  So much easier today though!!!

Again, many thanks for the help!
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 08:15:40 AM
According to the article, PBB's are here in Monroe County in the Raisin River too...

How nice.

Won't be goiing Kayaking anytime soon....

They're pretty much everywhere Flip...  If there were cattle at your farm back then it's a good possibility they're right in your soil too.
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 08:24:27 AM
BRD
Shibui is North of Mio to the big curve heading towards Lewiston. Instead of turning right on I believe 32, you torn left and head basically towards Grayling. Shibui is on the left and has a japanese theme roof on most of their structures. They used to have a nice grass runway for small aircraft too. It is still there but I couldn't tell you the current name.

Mav

The cattle were buried on  Pennsylvania rd just off of Mt Tom rd. I own 80 acres and a hunting camp just north of their on Bailey rd that goes into Cummins. I remember as a kid seeing the huge pit and I remember the PCB problem of the time.

Mav

I remember driving by 'the pit' area a few years later.  Not sure why the big focus on Shibui unless that was the headquarters for the demonstrators.  I'll get the pictures scanned and posted and maybe you'll recognize some of the locations.  It seems like we drove a few miles with all this going on around us.  The only location I could really pinpoint with Google streetview was at the entrance to the Shibui resort itself and I can't even be 100% sure on that.  I haven't been back in that area for probably 25 years and plenty can change.
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: excelsior on March 26, 2014, 08:52:41 AM
They're pretty much everywhere Flip...  If there were cattle at your farm back then it's a good possibility they're right in your soil too.

The PBB contaminated feed was given mainly to dairy cows.   PBB was in the food chain for a while before they discovered it.   Everyone that lived in Michigan in the 1970's and consumed milk products or beef likely ingested some level of PBB. 

I think that most all Michiganders are a little more flame resistant.  I wonder if crematorium workers are able to spot us.
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 09:05:49 AM
The PBB contaminated feed was given mainly to dairy cows.   PBB was in the food chain for a while before they discovered it.   Everyone that lived in Michigan in the 1970's and consumed milk products or beef likely ingested some level of PBB. 

I think that most all Michiganders are a little more flame resistant.  I wonder if crematorium workers are able to spot us.

I grew up within sight of the Pine River which runs through St. Louis and the plant involved.  There was lots of 'speculation' that their wastes went directly into the river.  In the 50s and 60s all of us neighborhood kids would pretty much live in that river all summer...  swimming...  playing...  fishing...  everything you could do in that water we pretty much did.  By high school I'd pretty much turned my attention to 'other sports' so wasn't in the river then.  The big question of course is how long were they making the fire retardant in the same plant as the animal feed before the 'mixup' occurred?  And then how much longer before it was discovered?  I'm guessing that due to the proximity to Dow Chemical in Midland (right down the Pine River from St. Louis) that Dow probably supplied all or most of the toxic chemical but they were off the hook for the mixed up bags. 

Our youngest was actually born with a birth defect so of course she's taking all this in and starting to ask some questions!!!  She's only been to St. Louis once but my Dad grew up there and both my wife and I grew up on that river :( :( :(  Who knows what ties could be there?
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: excelsior on March 26, 2014, 09:42:48 AM
Sorry to hear about your youngest.

Wow, your experiences bookended this tragedy.

Here is a report with details:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1650578/pdf/amjph00638-0078.pdf (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1650578/pdf/amjph00638-0078.pdf)

Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 09:56:07 AM
Sorry to hear about your youngest.

Wow, your experiences bookended this tragedy.

Here is a report with details:

[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1650578/pdf/amjph00638-0078.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1650578/pdf/amjph00638-0078.pdf[/url])


Thank you.... 

she does pretty good in spite of it... 

you get stronger in 'other areas' when you're short in one area! 

My wife and I really never pursued the 'why or how' of what happened...  we just knew she was otherwise healthy and that's all that mattered to us.  Our daughter is 24 now and has just really started to explore some of her background issues.  I had actually kind of forgotten much of this because we weren't directly involved at the time.  My Dad typically had 40-60 head of poled Herefords (beef cattle and many of the affected were dairy cattle) but he raised all of his own food...  even his cows ate organic way back then!

Wouldn't it be 'ironic' if now she could somehow trace her situation back to all of this?
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 10:39:27 AM
Ok, got the first 5 photos scanned.  These were a 4x5" print so we had some trouble trying to read the name of the resort.  Much easier to read now.  When we did first try we still didn't have it right and then my wife figured it out right in the middle of me starting my original post.  So went from thinking it was near Mio to knowing right where it was.  I'll play around later and zoom in on some of their protest signs and see if I can figure out what they say.

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0002_zps379fad23.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0002_zps379fad23.jpg.html)

I'm thinking this is at the entrance to the resort and Google earthview today looks quite similar.

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0003_zpsac95fe2a.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0003_zpsac95fe2a.jpg.html)

I'm trying to count the number of (marked) MSP cars that were there.  If I recall this protest stretched on over a few miles.  In hindsight this must have been quite an event for that area.  There are two MSP cars here!

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0004_zpsd8b1406c.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0004_zpsd8b1406c.jpg.html)

4 more here!

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0005_zps8cc8df10.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0005_zps8cc8df10.jpg.html)

I have to explain something about this photo.  I'm sure The Fuzz can sympathize...  My wife has always accused me of somehow manipulating my photos to often include the 'backside' of some unsuspecting young gal...  well, I admit, in this particular case there does happen to be a young gal in the picture (I was only 34-36 at the time so she probably didn't look near as young to me then as she does today) ;) ;) ;)  Anyway, it should be obvious to any true photographer that she just happened to be in the viewfinder and that I was obviously taking a photo of the poor gal that was probably a victim of obvious police brutality...   or maybe got bumped by one of the north country's finest drivers :o :o :o

Looking at the photo again I still have to wonder what she was doing there.  She is way 'over dressed' compared to everyone else in the photo or even the area.  Maybe it was Sunday and she'd just come from church...  or Saturday and she had a hot date in beautiful downtown Mio that night...

or maybe she was off to Camp Grayling to help 'treat the troops' 8) 8) 8)

Anyway, this one, and all the other thousands of gal's backsides that just happened to have ended up in my photos over the years were each and every one 'accidental'...

and I'll swear to that on my deathbed ;D ;D ;D

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0001_zps01e541ce.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0001_zps01e541ce.jpg.html)

OK Maverick...   any of this look similar to what it looks like today?

I've got several more I'll scan and post later but I've got to do some running first...

I'll take my camera with me in case a protest breaks out somewhere and a pretty young gal just happens to walk into my photo ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 10:58:14 AM
I have a very wide monitor and these photos are still not completely showing on the right side...  be sure and go down to the problem and drag it over to view the entire photo.  In the top one the first sign we were able to read and identify is clear to the very right.  I'm thinking that was out on the 'main highway' (M-33?).  This 'event' literally stretched on for miles.  Just looking and I haven't seen a local sheriff's car anywhere...   only MSP...  maybe the locals were all there protesting?  Maybe the little blonde gal is the sheriff's daughter 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: Maverick on March 26, 2014, 11:02:39 AM
Just the Shibui sign.
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: Maverick on March 26, 2014, 11:06:09 AM
We had friends from Monroe that had a cabin on Mt Tom rd and we used to hunt in what we called the pothole off of Mt Tom.  Mt Tom was closed off at M-33 for the big burial so that's probably why the natives were lined up near Shibui. I go up pretty often so I might send you pics for perspective. The buildings are still there and they are still rentals.
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: The Fuzz on March 26, 2014, 11:10:58 AM
Just the Shibui sign.

Perhaps you were just too "paranoid" at the time and looking straight forward?   8)
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: Maverick on March 26, 2014, 11:14:03 AM
I think back then I didn't even realize that there could be a plant of that nature.
Title: Re: My memory needs some help from some of the mature 'up north' Michiganders!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 02:25:39 PM
For the record:  I'm going to try 'renaming' this thread to something about the PBBs poisoning Michigan...  the current name worked for what I needed to and I do want to thank excelsior and Mav both for all the info and background they supplied.  Just amazing what the 'brain trust' of MonroeTalks can do isn't it?
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 02:50:07 PM
Here are some resources I found while digging deeper...

This is a blog that's somewhat up to date on the subject...  also where I kind of borrowed the revised name for the thread from.  I won't come right out and state that the PBBs have poisoned the entire state (and beyond) but I'll sure ask the question.  The more I read and remember about all these events I have to wonder if it is somehow related to our youngest daughter's 'situation'?

http://ymaout.blogspot.com/2013/03/pbb-disaster-of-1970s-poisons-all-of.html (http://ymaout.blogspot.com/2013/03/pbb-disaster-of-1970s-poisons-all-of.html)

Here's a photo of the chemical plant in St. Louis, MI (from the above blog) which shows it's proximity to the Pine River.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vln7dwKQlHM/UhOU9tHDjpI/AAAAAAAAAf8/4oF8Ylh20iI/s1600/PBB+Michigan+2.jpg)

Here's a 2011 (not real up to date but better than nothing) fact sheet compliments of your hard earned tax dollars.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdch_PBB_FAQ_92051_7.pdf (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdch_PBB_FAQ_92051_7.pdf)
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 03:16:46 PM
Here's a documentary video from one of the TV stations...   I haven't watched all of it and part of one I was watching earlier had footage of the farmers shooting some of their cattle and it might be a disturbing to some...  view with caution I guess:

http://www.wzzm13.com/video/2142226630001/1/Tainted-Michigan-PBB-Documentary (http://www.wzzm13.com/video/2142226630001/1/Tainted-Michigan-PBB-Documentary)

This is a little museum of some sort that's in the Mio area.  They have lots of photos of the events and I was at least able to narrow the demonstrations down to a narrower time frame than I knew for sure:


Quote
1978 is the year those individuals remember spending all summer on the PBB Picket Line along M33 and Mt Tom Roads between Fairview and Mio. It was a desperate effort to keep Oscoda County clean and free from hazardous wastes.


The whole summer of 1978!  I still have no idea of the exact day we were there and now I realize it was an ongoing thing so we probably did just happen on to it.  We did got to a wedding in the Mio area about then...  If I can remember who it was getting married maybe I can figure out what day it was. 

This photo is from that website and it certainly could have been taken the same day we were there:

(http://www.angelfire.com/mi/stutesman/Imagecompressed.jpg)

If I get back up in that area I'll have to stop in:

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/stutesman/pbb.html (http://www.angelfire.com/mi/stutesman/pbb.html)

Governor Milliken doesn't look very happy...   lots and lots of accusations over the years that the state attempted a massive coverup...  "how will we ever be able to sell our meat in Europe" is one I remember...  my Dad sold his all locally so he just kind of emphasized that he didn't buy bagged food!

(http://www.angelfire.com/mi/stutesman/compressedneff.jpg)
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 03:22:20 PM
The big demonstrations at Mio revolved around an ongoing lawsuit (I don't remember who all was involved but probably lots of people from the Mio area) wanting all the carcasses to be incinerated rather than buried.  In the long run they did win and most of the carcasses were incinerated but some were still buried in Mio and Kalkaska.  I've seen various numbers in various articles so hard to tell how many were actually buried up there in either place.  In one of my photos there is a picket sign that mentions something about safer to burn :o :o :o
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 04:35:57 PM
I received an email from my 'lurker' friend...  I've suggested a few times that it's 'cheap and easy' to join (I'm sure The Fuzz will make some lewd comment about 'cheap and easy' now ;) ;) ;) ) but he seems to prefer to just lurk and mostly listen.  But whenever he emails me stuff it's usually pretty interesting and relevant to our discussion.

He emailed me and reminded me that Ron Howard did a movie back in the early 80s about this entire scenario...  the mixup and the 'cover-up'!!!

Bitter Harvest...   details and even 'watch it free' if you have Netflix...  our daughter does and we'll be watching it this evening!

http://www.allmovie.com/movie/bitter-harvest-v5772 (http://www.allmovie.com/movie/bitter-harvest-v5772)

Here it is on Amazon and you can watch it free there too:

http://www.amazon.com/Bitter-Harvest-Ron-Howard/dp/B002BUDWA2 (http://www.amazon.com/Bitter-Harvest-Ron-Howard/dp/B002BUDWA2)

My 'friend' had called Family Video in Temperance and it's $18.99 to buy!

There's also another (1963) British movie by the same name...

it looks interesting too!!!

Bitter Harvest - 1963 British film (intro) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUxEcp35i3E#)
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: sammy on March 26, 2014, 05:02:26 PM
Here are some resources I found while digging deeper...

This is a blog that's somewhat up to date on the subject...  also where I kind of borrowed the revised name for the thread from.  I won't come right out and state that the PBBs have poisoned the entire state (and beyond) but I'll sure ask the question.  The more I read and remember about all these events I have to wonder if it is somehow related to our youngest daughter's 'situation'?

[url]http://ymaout.blogspot.com/2013/03/pbb-disaster-of-1970s-poisons-all-of.html[/url] ([url]http://ymaout.blogspot.com/2013/03/pbb-disaster-of-1970s-poisons-all-of.html[/url])

Here's a photo of the chemical plant in St. Louis, MI (from the above blog) which shows it's proximity to the Pine River.

([url]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vln7dwKQlHM/UhOU9tHDjpI/AAAAAAAAAf8/4oF8Ylh20iI/s1600/PBB+Michigan+2.jpg[/url])

Here's a 2011 (not real up to date but better than nothing) fact sheet compliments of your hard earned tax dollars.

[url]http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdch_PBB_FAQ_92051_7.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdch_PBB_FAQ_92051_7.pdf[/url])
The governor in the picture is "Soapy" Williams.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 05:17:13 PM
Some more pictures.  Here' they're getting ready to load the lady in the ambulance that was getting attention earlier.  The same little 'blonde gal' is still standing behind her although in this picture her hair isn't near as 'blonde'...  must be the way the sun was hitting it!  The sign leaning against the car says "Be loyal to thyself, burn PBB!"  Maybe that's the one the gal that got hurt was carrying!  The one behind her says "We need help  Come on Michigan"  A lot of ambulances were the Cadillac 'hearse type' back then.  Just starting to get into the more modern 'truck based' ones we have today.  For some people the only ride they ever got in a Cadillac was in an ambulance or a hearse >:( >:( >:(

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0006_zpse707ace0.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0006_zpse707ace0.jpg.html)

A different view of the scene as above...  somehow the little blonde gal snuck in the picture again though:

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0007_zpscc27754a.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0007_zpscc27754a.jpg.html)

They were trying to keep the trucks hauling the carcasses from going in to where they wanted to bury them:

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0008_zpsb6c185e4.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0008_zpsb6c185e4.jpg.html)

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0009_zps3bd99303.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0009_zps3bd99303.jpg.html)

Hanging in effigy...   the sign the 'hangman' is holding says "Milliken is an idiot"

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0010_zps4f4fa377.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0010_zps4f4fa377.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 05:20:36 PM
The governor in the picture is "Soapy" Williams.

Right you are...  bow tie and all ;) ;) ;)

He must have been there as a 'former' Governor...

by then he'd been out of office for a couple of terms.

Thanks for the 'good eyes'...  I better pay closer attention when I 'borrow' someone's photos!!!
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 26, 2014, 05:24:58 PM
I've got some more pictures but have some other projects to work on too...

I'll add some more later!
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on March 27, 2014, 10:42:06 AM
These look like the last 3 photos I took that day... 

I'm hoping some day someone can tie the pictures to a bit of a geographical relationship to each other.

I'd really like to hear from one of the protesters...  be really neat if I had their picture posted here!

Or one of the MSP Troopers.  I'm guessing most that would have been there are now retired or they're in the very upper echelon at the MSP by now.  I wonder how many 'manhours' the MSP put in at the site during that summer ??? ??? ???

This poster says "Why Poison our children and grandchildren"!  I like the gal on top of the car...  she must be the appointed 'lookout'!  I can't read the sign the man in the dark shirt is carrying...  looks like it's on grocery bags.  I hope he figured out they may be readily available but they're real had to read ;) ;) ;)

I notice there is also some 'writing' on the pavement.  Just the kids amusing themselves with sidewalk chalk or something the MSP had put down?

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0013_zps6de12f61.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0013_zps6de12f61.jpg.html)

I've decided this must be on M-33 just as the highway turns to the east and the little road that goes straight ahead would go north to the 'burial pit' and also if you turn left up there you would be at the resort.  I'm curious what the resort had to do with all this.  One of the first photos I posted showed 4 MSP cars parked at their entrance. 

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0014_zps0f6df2f1.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0014_zps0f6df2f1.jpg.html)

There are 3 more MSP cars at this corner.  I don't have any idea the relationship of this corner to everything else though.  There had to be at least a dozen MSP marked cars that I saw...  I'm sure there were more I missed or that were out of sight and probably a few unmarked command cars too.  We didn't observe any violence and all seemed quiet except for the one gal getting medical attention.

Some night when I can't sleep I'll get on Google streetview and try to figure out any visible landmarks.

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/bigreddog1/scan0015_zpsbbfdbd74.jpg) (http://s905.photobucket.com/user/bigreddog1/media/scan0015_zpsbbfdbd74.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on August 06, 2014, 04:54:58 PM
Here's a current article (with video for those that don't like to read) from the Detroit Free Press with updates and current conditions in St. Louis.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2014308030057 (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2014308030057)
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: SidecarFlip on August 06, 2014, 05:57:19 PM
Actually, the text is as good as the video.  In some areas, the soil has to be excavated to a depth of 4 feet for mitigation and 300 Million for the 54 acre plant site alone.  I find it interesting and sad that the compay settled with the EPA and the went bankrupt for a measly 20 mil.  20 mil ain't even a downpayment.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on August 07, 2014, 12:14:20 PM
Actually, the text is as good as the video.  In some areas, the soil has to be excavated to a depth of 4 feet for mitigation and 300 Million for the 54 acre plant site alone.  I find it interesting and sad that the compay settled with the EPA and the went bankrupt for a measly 20 mil.  20 mil ain't even a downpayment.

Ahhh yes...

the corporate shield!!!
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: SidecarFlip on August 07, 2014, 09:15:54 PM
St. Louis is a very nice small town right off 127.  Been there a few times, never got ill from it.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on August 08, 2014, 11:47:29 AM
St. Louis is a very nice small town right off 127.  Been there a few times, never got ill from it.

Even though Midland county is considered the 'middle' of Michigan (well, the lower peninsula anyway) the actual center is located in St. Louis.  They even have a little park there which is kind of interesting to visit if you're into that sort of thing. 

I had an aunt and uncle that lived a few miles south of St. Louis along the Pine River (the contaminated one) and we would spend some time with them in the summers.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: SidecarFlip on August 09, 2014, 08:37:36 AM
Does that mean you 'glow' at night?

Sort of like Alma.  I remember when they dismantled the refinery on the east side of town.  That was ugly.  I wonder if that site is contaminated too?
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on December 07, 2014, 10:03:11 AM
St. Louis is a very nice small town right off 127.  Been there a few times, never got ill from it.


While some of the effects are fairly quick (and obvious) there are also some long term implications that you probably don't even want to think about.  I doubt a few visits would be a problem...  unless you were digging in the dirt while you were there!

Here's another article I found:

http://archive.freep.com/article/20120923/NEWS06/309230153/Toxic-aftermath (http://archive.freep.com/article/20120923/NEWS06/309230153/Toxic-aftermath)
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 07, 2014, 01:48:49 PM
Maybe Fry was 'digging in the dirt' there.  He's noted for stirring up shitte...
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on May 12, 2016, 09:39:13 AM
I wonder how long this will go on?

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/05/velsicol_superfund_st_louis_pb.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/05/velsicol_superfund_st_louis_pb.html)
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on January 06, 2018, 11:07:43 AM
I wonder how long this will go on?

[url]http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/05/velsicol_superfund_st_louis_pb.html[/url] ([url]http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/05/velsicol_superfund_st_louis_pb.html[/url])


And now the 'next' step in the cleanup!!!

http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2018/01/epa_officials_work_to_clean_up.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2018/01/epa_officials_work_to_clean_up.html)
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: SidecarFlip on January 06, 2018, 12:39:35 PM
I suspect the remediation will go on for generations at the cost of Billions in taxpayer money,  I sometimes winder how polluted Midland is.  Dow made some really nasty stuff there.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on January 06, 2018, 08:04:12 PM
I suspect the remediation will go on for generations at the cost of Billions in taxpayer money,  I sometimes winder how polluted Midland is.  Dow made some really nasty stuff there.


They're still working on cleaning up the plant site itself.  I don't think they've even started on an cleanup of the Pine River and the Chippewa River yet.  There's also a mile of so of the Tittabawassee between the confluence with the Chippewa and the Dow  (now Dow DuPont)  plant.  Below the DD plant clear to the Saginaw River and then clear out into Saginaw Bay they are slowly in the process of cleaning up the river.  But above Dow clear to the old Velsicol plant the cleanup is still waiting. 

If we (the taxpayers) ever decide to clean up the plant site itself I doubt the government will be able to borrow enough money from China to handle it!

Here's some good reading while it's still cold out!!!

https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=0503250 (https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=0503250)

http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2016/10/epa_seeks_public_comment_on_ne.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2016/10/epa_seeks_public_comment_on_ne.html)

http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2015/05/dow_chemical_asks_450_property.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2015/05/dow_chemical_asks_450_property.html)

http://michiganradio.org/post/why-does-it-take-40-years-clean-polluted-river (http://michiganradio.org/post/why-does-it-take-40-years-clean-polluted-river)

If it hasn't warmed up and you still want to read some more here's over 8200 more articles!

https://www.google.com/search?q=dow+chemical+cleanup+tittabawassee+river&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS481US482&oq=dow+chemical+cleanup+tittabawassee+river&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.6869j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=dow+chemical+cleanup+tittabawassee+river&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS481US482&oq=dow+chemical+cleanup+tittabawassee+river&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.6869j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

This is all just on the river downstream from DD.

Here's a list on a few of Dow's landfills around the plant.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Dow+Poseyville+Landfill&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS481US482&oq=Dow+Poseyville+Landfill&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.9269j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=Dow+Poseyville+Landfill&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS481US482&oq=Dow+Poseyville+Landfill&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.9269j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

Velsicol in St. Louis was 54 acres.  I don't know how big the DD plant is now but I know it's often referred to as the largest Chemical plant in the world.  And that doesn't include the former Dow Corning plant which isn't included.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: The Fuzz on January 07, 2018, 09:53:55 AM
BRD......I had it in my mind that DOW was associated with that big dairy cattle kill up in Alma back in the 70's so I searched real quick.

Not sure about this blog, but well written.  Does this match your recollection?

http://ymaout.blogspot.com/2013/03/pbb-disaster-of-1970s-poisons-all-of.html (http://ymaout.blogspot.com/2013/03/pbb-disaster-of-1970s-poisons-all-of.html)

Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: Maverick on January 07, 2018, 10:10:41 AM
We've talked about this before probably on this thread. When I was a kid we used to hunt in the area of the Pennsylvania Crossing dump site before and after it was there. I still own 80 and a cabin off of Mt Tom rd and pass the dump site every time we I there.
I would say the dump site has had no ill effects on me but that might set off a lively debate!!!
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on January 07, 2018, 12:02:14 PM
BRD......I had it in my mind that DOW was associated with that big dairy cattle kill up in Alma back in the 70's so I searched real quick.

Not sure about this blog, but well written.  Does this match your recollection?

[url]http://ymaout.blogspot.com/2013/03/pbb-disaster-of-1970s-poisons-all-of.html[/url] ([url]http://ymaout.blogspot.com/2013/03/pbb-disaster-of-1970s-poisons-all-of.html[/url])


The blog seems pretty factual.  The only thing that jumps out at me right away as being slightly wrong was the part about the supervisor telling the crew to just go ahead and mix the (unknown at the time) fire retardant with the food.  That scenario happened at Farm Bureau from what I have read. 

We've talked about this before probably on this thread. When I was a kid we used to hunt in the area of the Pennsylvania Crossing dump site before and after it was there. I still own 80 and a cabin off of Mt Tom rd and pass the dump site every time we I there.
I would say the dump site has had no ill effects on me but that might set off a lively debate!!!


You most likely have had far more exposure in your like by eating contaminated food and drinking contaminated milk. 

Even if any of the burial sites are leaking each cow had only parts per million of contamination. 

In some cases it does take years to show any signs of exposure too.

My wife's mother grew up within site of the Pine River below St. Louis and in the 80s had many issues that can potentially be traced back to PBB exposure.  After a couple of years they seemed to diminish and she lived into her 90s.

Our youngest daughter was born (late 80s) with issues that potentially can be linked back to possible PBB exposure. 

Several years ago I posted here about some issues my wife had suddenly started having.  They mimicked very closely what her Mom had gone through decades earlier.  She was ultimately diagnosed with Lupus which is similar to but different from rheumatoid arthritis.  RA symptoms are very prevalent to some of the farmers that were actually pouring the bags of feed out for the cattle and other related jobs involving the cattle feed.

All coincidences or all a direct link...

who knows?

Anyway, glad you haven't had any issues and hopefully you never do because they're not pretty!
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on January 07, 2018, 12:07:07 PM
BRD......I had it in my mind that DOW was associated with that big dairy cattle kill up in Alma back in the 70's so I searched real quick.

Not sure about this blog, but well written.  Does this match your recollection?

[url]http://ymaout.blogspot.com/2013/03/pbb-disaster-of-1970s-poisons-all-of.html[/url] ([url]http://ymaout.blogspot.com/2013/03/pbb-disaster-of-1970s-poisons-all-of.html[/url])


No, it wasn't Dow but rather St. Louis Chemical (later Velsicol).

The similarities is they were both situated in the central Michigan area and both extracted chemicals from brine or salt in the area.  Another similarity is both were not very careful on keeping they're pollution out of the adjacent rivers which actually connected the two plants.

My wife and I both grew up literally on the banks of the Pine River about midway between the two plants.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: The Fuzz on January 07, 2018, 02:36:48 PM
I would say the dump site has had no ill effects on me but that might set off a lively debate!!!

Mav......you and I grew up in a time when preservatives were being introduced to the baby food we were fed as kids (1st generation to do so), processed foods were the norm (nitrates and nitrites), and a whole host of chemicals first introduced to man.

I marvel at my willingly consumed "chemicals" and still surprised I have appendages and 3 active brain cells.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: SidecarFlip on January 07, 2018, 07:49:00 PM
We've talked about this before probably on this thread. When I was a kid we used to hunt in the area of the Pennsylvania Crossing dump site before and after it was there. I still own 80 and a cabin off of Mt Tom rd and pass the dump site every time we I there.
I would say the dump site has had no ill effects on me but that might set off a lively debate!!!

When you stopped by this spring. you had a strange odor about you...... ;D  Smelled like something chemical... :o
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: Maverick on January 07, 2018, 11:48:35 PM
Round Up ready GMO Bean soup !!
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on January 08, 2018, 10:45:34 AM
We've talked about this before probably on this thread. When I was a kid we used to hunt in the area of the Pennsylvania Crossing dump site before and after it was there. I still own 80 and a cabin off of Mt Tom rd and pass the dump site every time we I there.
I would say the dump site has had no ill effects on me but that might set off a lively debate!!!


This study is right in your area then.

Your tax dollars at work:  http://www.midnr.com/Publications/pdfs/ForestsLandWater/Cmpt_Reviews/Grayling/2010/Cmpt029NarReportMap.pdf (http://www.midnr.com/Publications/pdfs/ForestsLandWater/Cmpt_Reviews/Grayling/2010/Cmpt029NarReportMap.pdf)
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on May 03, 2018, 10:17:27 AM
And now in St. Louis (MI) where the problem all started they're still working to clean up the site. 

Some of this looks very new but if it works to treat the waste 'on site' it should save some money in the long run not to mention the chance of contaminating new victims by digging it up and transporting it to an incinerator. 

http://www.mlive.com/expo/erry-2018/05/81ef53cdeb445/index.html (http://www.mlive.com/expo/erry-2018/05/81ef53cdeb445/index.html)

(https://expo.advance.net/img/72380c6a7f/width960/749_epa_tour20180430_144513.jpg)
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: blue2 on May 03, 2018, 10:26:54 AM
They did something like this at the corner of Sterns and Secor last year.  Wasn't' quite this sophisticated but pretty much like this.  There was a gas station at the site for years.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on May 03, 2018, 10:59:33 AM
They did something like this at the corner of Sterns and Secor last year.  Wasn't' quite this sophisticated but pretty much like this.  There was a gas station at the site for years.



That corner is still showing as 'active' on the map at the link below.  Not sure at what point they consider a location 'clean'.

Looks like there is still some cleanup to do at what is now the Kroger Fuel Center across the corner. 

http://www.circleofblue.org/LUST.html (http://www.circleofblue.org/LUST.html)
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: blue2 on May 03, 2018, 03:33:12 PM
I'm betting the website just hasn't been updated. They had this equip in place for months. Then they hauled out lots of dirt and refilled
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: SidecarFlip on May 03, 2018, 04:36:09 PM
I see we have one in Summerfield Township south of the fire hall on Sylvania-Pete Road.  Interesting map BRD, thanks.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: SidecarFlip on May 03, 2018, 04:39:46 PM
They did something like this at the corner of Sterns and Secor last year.  Wasn't' quite this sophisticated but pretty much like this.  There was a gas station at the site for years.

There was / is a huge similar one on the OTPK at the closed rest area on the eastbound side before the Airport Highway exit.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on May 04, 2018, 09:09:18 AM
I'm betting the website just hasn't been updated. They had this equip in place for months. Then they hauled out lots of dirt and refilled

I haven't kept up with this recently but there is a timeframe that they will come back and check the onsite test wells and then some wells around it but 'off site'.  Once all of those test 'safe' and probably a bunch of other criteria are met then the proper authorities will remove it from their listing.  So many levels of government and different agencies involved. 

At one time I heard that someone was developing a bacteria that they could inject into a polluted site and let the bacteria consume the pollution.  I don't know what ever happened with that. 
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on May 04, 2018, 09:12:07 AM
I see we have one in Summerfield Township south of the fire hall on Sylvania-Pete Road.  Interesting map BRD, thanks.

Some of the sites were the result of relatively small amounts of pollutant.  If the same criteria were used across the country that map would be loaded with a lot more blips! 
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: SidecarFlip on May 04, 2018, 09:23:04 AM
CL passes the map on to John Chandler who had no idea the 'blips' existed.  Interesting map and interesting spots on it.  The one is the old Mike's Meat Market in town (now a lawnmower repair shop).
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on May 04, 2018, 09:37:07 AM
CL passes the map on to John Chandler who had no idea the 'blips' existed.  Interesting map and interesting spots on it.  The one is the old Mike's Meat Market in town (now a lawnmower repair shop).

Some of the 'spills' go back decades and are not all 'fuel' spills.  I can't think of anything off hand that a meat market would use that would be a contaminant. 

Is it on a corner? 

Always be cautious of any property on a corner of a main road as it may have been the site of a fuel station at one time.

Dry cleaning fluid is another nasty chemical. 

Each one of those blips has an entire file on it 'somewhere'.  Sometimes you can find info online and other times you can't. 

He should be in a position to get more info (eventually) than many people are.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: SidecarFlip on May 04, 2018, 10:18:46 PM
The old 'Mikes Meats', now a lawnmower repair shop was, at one time a gas station and being in town and not in the township, I don't know if the tanks were ever pulled, same with the property on the corner of Teal and Sylvania-Pete.  That also was a filling station years ago.  I bet those tanks were steel and if still down there have to be leaking.

I suspect if the DEQ did sample borings on Syl-Pete and Teal, that one would also wind up a dot on the map.  The one that puzzles me is the dot on Syl-Pete past the market and fire hall on the east side of the road between the market and the railroad tracks.  There is nothing there but a cultivated field.

I found it interesting that the fiberglass tanks we had buried at the dealership in Toledo (I remember when they put them in) had as much water in them as they did.  Before the dealership was sold they were pulled down (I helped) to all that was left was water and there was 15" of water in the bottom under the diesel fuel.  Two 10,000 gallon glass double walled fuel tanks.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on May 05, 2018, 09:10:49 AM
The old 'Mikes Meats', now a lawnmower repair shop was, at one time a gas station and being in town and not in the township, I don't know if the tanks were ever pulled, same with the property on the corner of Teal and Sylvania-Pete.  That also was a filling station years ago.  I bet those tanks were steel and if still down there have to be leaking.

I suspect if the DEQ did sample borings on Syl-Pete and Teal, that one would also wind up a dot on the map.  The one that puzzles me is the dot on Syl-Pete past the market and fire hall on the east side of the road between the market and the railroad tracks.  There is nothing there but a cultivated field.

I found it interesting that the fiberglass tanks we had buried at the dealership in Toledo (I remember when they put them in) had as much water in them as they did.  Before the dealership was sold they were pulled down (I helped) to all that was left was water and there was 15" of water in the bottom under the diesel fuel.  Two 10,000 gallon glass double walled fuel tanks.

A year or two back I posted a similar map and when you hovered over the blip it would give some more info of what the issue was. 
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: SidecarFlip on May 05, 2018, 01:47:52 PM
I wonder what it's costing the taxpayers to provide the juice to cook the stuff out of the ground in St.Louis.
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: SidecarFlip on May 05, 2018, 01:48:21 PM
A year or two back I posted a similar map and when you hovered over the blip it would give some more info of what the issue was.

That don't work now....
Title: Re: Did the PBB disaster in the 70s poison all of Michigan!
Post by: BigRedDog on May 05, 2018, 06:46:45 PM
I wonder what it's costing the taxpayers to provide the juice to cook the stuff out of the ground in St.Louis.

I'm sure the info is out there somewhere if you dig deep enough...

but there's definitely a reason these are called 'superfund' sites!!!