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Categories => News => Topic started by: BigRedDog on October 03, 2017, 10:00:44 AM

Title: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 03, 2017, 10:00:44 AM
Lots of discussion on the interweb last night on a potential '2nd shooter'...   even some grainy (why are they always grainy?) videos that purport to show muzzle flash coming from much lower in the hotel. 

Let me be right up front and make it clear...  I am not saying there was a 2nd shooter but only that there is a lot of discussion at this very early stage in the investigation.  It appears to me that there is currently more  'conspiracy talk' than is typical this early on. 

Do a Google search for Las Vegas and one of the top 'suggested' responses is '2nd shooter'.  Here's the results from a search I just did.  Please note that over time the responses will certainly change...   probably by the minute or hour.

https://www.google.com/search?q=las+vegas+2nd+shooter&rlz=1CAACAT_enUS737US737&oq=las+ve&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i60j69i57j69i60l2.5416j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=las+vegas+2nd+shooter&rlz=1CAACAT_enUS737US737&oq=las+ve&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i60j69i57j69i60l2.5416j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

I am not going to post any of the articles or youtubes at this point so as not to influence anyone's opinion.  Just posting this to give the 'curious' something to think about as this entire investigation progresses.  It is not by any means 'uncommon' to hear talk of conspiracy theories following any major event.  I think back to the assassination of JFK when it seems like it was years before the '2nd shooter' discussion went mainstream.  Obviously, no internet back then so much more difficult to communicate.

Also there is no intent to take anything away from any of the victims of this tragic event.  In fact getting to 'the bottom' of all the circumstances both before, during and after the actual shooting should be considered as helping to honor their loss.  If I were to 'go' in a similar situation I would the world to know 'the truth'!!!

Anyone else have 'early on' thoughts or suggestions as to what might be lurking in the background ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 03, 2017, 10:08:27 AM
Before anyone gripes about posting this on the 'news' board I did think about it before hand as to where to post my question.  The politics board may have upset some too and so far we don't have a board for 'conspiracy theories'.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Newport-Bill on October 03, 2017, 11:18:32 AM
I think its a question worth asking.  In watching the news reports the pictures of the Mandalay Bay show 2 windows on the 32 floor blown out.  The first thing I said was why need a second one when you have a direct view of your target from the first?
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 03, 2017, 12:51:53 PM

The two windows used were on different planes.    This 45 degree offset allowed he to increase his  instead killing field from about 170 to about 215 degrees.     You will see how the shooter used this increased range when they map the ballistics.


Someone posted a video of when they stayed in that same room.

Mandalay Bay room 32135 Route 91 2016. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skcuvo9Z9BY#)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 03, 2017, 02:15:15 PM
Couple things.  One the whole thing smells like yesterdays fish.  This guy, wealthy, with no record goes on a killing spree from a 32nd floor hotel room, makes no sense to me.

I surmised correctly that contrary to the reports (from supposedly learned people in the crowd) that it was 'automatic weapons fire' from a select fire rifle, it wasn't.  It was a gas blowback semi-auto AR15 platform equipped with a readily  available slide fire butt stock you can buy for 70 bucks and any gun shop, Cabelas included or, online for that matter.

The clandestine pictures of the hotel room and the 2 AR's on the floor (with numerous shell casings all around) were, I surmised correctly again, either 223's or 556 NATO.  It was reported that he was shooting a large caliber weapon.  Not true.  I listened to the sound clips and I knew it was a 223 or 556, not a 7.62 x 54 (308), I know the difference is sound, I have both and fire both.

All the guns I'm sure were bought legally.  This guy could have passed any NICS check, if, in fact he did it.  Thhere is no plausible reason for him to, why I don't think he did.

I also don't think we will ever know.  We will only learn what the media wants us to learn.

I feel bad for his immediate family as well as the dead and injured.

But, I'm of the school of thought that he either had a partner or he was a fall guy for the real shooter.

None of it concerning him, makes any sense at all.

I do know one thing for sure, I know why I avoid crowds.  Was like shooting fish in a barrel.

I'm sure the gun bangers will be out in full force, chanting for gun control again, even though this had nothing to do with gun control at all.

Bloomberg probably walked around yesterday with a hard on all day.... ;D
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 03, 2017, 02:57:36 PM

Marilou Danley seems to be the key to this puzzle.

Las Vegas Shooter Wired $100,000 to Philippines Last Week

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/las-vegas-shooting/las-vegas-shooting-what-we-know-about-victims-so-far-n806961 (https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/las-vegas-shooting/las-vegas-shooting-what-we-know-about-victims-so-far-n806961)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 03, 2017, 03:50:29 PM
His girlfriend might clear some things up. What did she know about him? When did she leave the country??  Where does she stand regarding his assets?
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: nails on October 03, 2017, 05:57:49 PM

As long as we're talking about hypotheticals . . .

Although he wasn't a veteran, maybe he watched the "Ken Burns Vietnam Documentary" and got caught up in the military scenario. That has been on TV during the days leading up to this.

Sounds far fetched, but nothing is making sense about this one.
Old white guy, shooting a bunch of white people, without a cause that we know of.
Did he send his girlfriend on a vacation to keep her away from suspicion?

Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Maverick on October 03, 2017, 06:00:09 PM
Did anybody check the grassy knoll
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 03, 2017, 06:02:09 PM
Article from the Washington Post contains photos that were apparently leaked by a LV Police Dept. person!!!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/10/03/as-las-vegas-grieves-investigators-struggle-to-piece-together-the-motives-behind-shooting/?utm_term=.761ce3197df9 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/10/03/as-las-vegas-grieves-investigators-struggle-to-piece-together-the-motives-behind-shooting/?utm_term=.761ce3197df9)

(http://)

I was going to link to the image but in the time I copied the article link and started posting here the photo had disappeared when I went back to the article...   strange!!!

Quote from the article regarding the photo (among others):

Quote
Lombardo also said the department has opened an investigation into the unauthorized release of images that show the crime scene, including the bullet-riddled door to the suite used by the gunman, Stephen Paddock. Police said Paddock fired at hotel security before taking his own life.

In these photographs, obtained by the German newsmagazine Bild on Tuesday, a portion of Paddock’s two-room suite is visible. A gun with a scope and a stand can also be seen inside the room, just behind yellow crime-scene tape crisscrossing the door.

Lombardo declined to confirm whether the images were legitimate, but he said the department is trying to determine how the images were made public.

“I can tell you I’m very troubled by it,” Lombardo said. “We have an internal investigation going as we speak as to how those photographs were obtained.”

Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 03, 2017, 06:03:22 PM
Did anybody check the grassy knoll

Exactly...   let's look at and debunk or accept all the 'theories' right now...   not wait 30 years ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 03, 2017, 06:11:25 PM
Try this... not sure if it will work or how long the link will stay active:

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wvAdSJkQQfj2VNtn2Zu3mxWQoOkezctEk9V0GV5gcQTQS77RYloAukGAdFQb/Cq2F2piHYhr9zjuYjyir9RxTnico6W353J4oWtmbDB+zLjEO7Mpsst0BADmDXoLjdGWQSO+iFzY2bBphnuwyKgFwDUNbIKsATv6o415bcxd5mhrtw6wQXbh3mosdOfTeRvPbTvgqsmnKeltuRscUskemWfZcXSy/xBvXpt3MyqpcNaYw+UE/dYIeyKIY72LuMpIOItRde8GtiGXOIdQYPVJlvGsl/p97RLg+luLhy9xwEV5EqmnV14EgN4Ctfe/wBUb/C0i/muL6VTscr36x/whHU+APwCYXC3GP8AEAFhBV3QaZ3uCBodDcYd0cq0+z8I962t2yM9tvddSpUwYMGeYNZfGf6j3XMsmGnmYbd4E0Pv/wCo98COntKOARG07IiKhPounUlec236fQKrNKyRvL2zrq+8h8IPpNC8ftO1YjpSySYGa3cgk8ActYHFf6g3WP8APY9ywKD4z2qv3TlF14OmsRHbQ/BqHOXt9A9fI9KPtXgwTN7cYPUub/8AbQm5e2bnZjdfM1zpIi5AaVaAMmillzRzY1gbiyDpopjvHA/CrOGsEqHmTOvaN0/EVWn0ZTp+GUl6r6GdVvVI2hTZxTIL90QAAwD5tFZQc3R7+uW74NWL+FwmJYkYi6T0S2zvmAykscy++wXKTyJrG26P+zYEuewep+lUlwdu9jldeX0Ap7WJr/8ABF3H8cwuI0A5ZNuOlhR1YIBumJ/AKu7ZxGGxGQ/xgRrauAcu9nUKGYEfdYBoG+vO8NrexB53W/8Acxqe80A/vtqc+Gamnjd1ppv6DKWWhuL4wjOrjF2xlZDBjUKqLBJPJD/up2LNlypGMw8KEgZlzZlgMSc25lUCK8puYx2YqgnlAM1PgrjmQwgjsjfTdkmlfH8hesV9Dc7WtqplesrhipTVS4I0lTJlocxqehVRyOj2bhjasqjGWAljzY6n46Vm/YHGozHD3ADr0lueDDePLrD8pNbXFWwN1ebxdSUbUntnfnyKwX6gZirYuLkn3iCYP3VIJ893jWO2oDfYkDQkdGIhxkAgAcZ6S4Z7Oyim0MmEnIJN24HaDBCL1iF7CQV/8ys/t45LrKpOh0kzA3wp5Ek6cBpXdwkMKvfJ6f7JVM8i/hMO/SobltpBYMeYKgDUdq7+2ojhnzKcjCLjnwYL9I8KCi+/428zTFxNyf5j/wC5vrXVZ3FsaNFPSlgrwbobUNwImZ+71THDd2UdfE15zisXc0+0ff8AiP1rlp7jT120HFjUqvDupZ3DF2NJjLTnEdJk6oOhkCePPmaz22AynrQWKiYM9mvwqXB2JOuu7f3gVH7Qt1yO70rpoxcWkJNZAUilT4pV1kTWX3zGeUwO07ye2quNcjLG/hUw1qLEWy2g94LPxNc8dSqIsSwJt3BvgT4UsSxZQTvkns1/fwqF7nVReU/GpFO4do+Rp2Zj0DKw1loBPcdTXQD13B93Ve4H6TXcXdhj4fQ/OoCcqDvjy/zQMcxt6WVhxE+O6o7jAhQd4Pw40mEhY4A+tNKwQeH7miYkxAhuW70qLMKtM6SSyZjw1I0p4xCjdatjvBNawCgbg/xUN49holdxLEcB3ACh93fRMU3qbCgBgTuqJt9TnSKL0Ag1s15JUiVafAxTrV3JbJOoA7Oc/SosIhUC4O3TjP8Ag12/amyTxEA/3EfQ0Bggty2OLHuMfDKa0Hs44IchSNQNZk7+f0oGi1oNgjqN+b5D60lXKI0NTG4dIuX/APxnHkxpY1oU9xontnBC3efKZ6Q9IewtoR5qT40MxiEiBxkCpN3dxtEBunKWkC6MTJbj3fEeVQ2sS7OuZideJp9xSVRYAKzJ57vp8amwODhpJkjyqzasStmEsDcdHV0MMpBB7Rr5V6qmMF22lwbmG7keI8DNedYe1ArcbEwZtWQDvbrEcpiBHcB514/SEIySb1OmndAzb1gXFzcU1HPLvI+E/wBorH3bTMSTxrY7UxJRl/CGAftVpUd+mZtPwUBxdjI7LyPw3j4VbhsUYJP0FeoL/habZwup/fE1fBFMtjf4en611JgsDcfZAy959K7aXqMe4VLtH3lHYT6frTQIt97egp2Ak2eOt4j4Saq+0KgEEb2MnwEVe2cNfP0A+dDvaFpdRyBPmf0p4eMWfhBE/uaVdilXRZkTWrbhgN8gnyNV9oXcl3MBHUA9auEfaj8p9RVXaYGZeZInu3fOuSLbkdMoJIoW7cqWPDdUrmUEe8I/Smi1AuLwH1+lddh4xH6+tVzJjXGa2DxWQfH58fGnLYzWyeIMx2cfnUVxSFjxP78alW8FNuOM5v7q1jEbMMw7tR20sQY0jiSO40sZaymY3n9inMZGo935/s0QDA0gd1OikiQBUgWiwDMlVLo61X4qjf3mgmYotvHfUx3RUIGo76nsJBLHhTAQX2Y+qgjqgnx46+MVNjV0/NdA8M36UthqrIAeDlvCOHiKnxtuTb7b0eRM+lAbYtKtH9jCLf8AcflQRRR7Zn8sePrU63hGhqAvaI/bdyr8zQi5oVPj5H9KM7SUNfuyPdQeYA+poFi93nUr5DMGRV7ZqbyeQqoN/jRLZmXXMaaWgsUaP2awXTXhIlE6z8uweJ+E1qds4rIC3LcO2pNh7OFiyFiHbrP38B4D4zWa9pceTcyKAQu8zxrxJS7RXstEdNsMQXtuS5uakOAy9mmWI3SBprzNSYqxNu27xmygGDwMlfhT7B6RMrx1GDTu6hIzwewCa5bdbh+6qXAFCngRokAaAdSPDz9NN4UuRDRlHOg3a9wmuCOUV0rGlcNMncYG4w/aH8o+f6Urnur4n4/pTL5l37wPgKfiNMo/pFVsKW9nj0+f6UF2203T2AD5/OjCNltseQHp9TQVsM7tMEzxNPT1uJPkUgKVExsZuYpVfGuZPCw8x+0H5T6ihu2B1yeSj50Qj7Ufk+dVMYJuEEaFR5j/ADXLSfeOmbyK1u/KNPee/wDzXXtgsBuG/Xl+/WolKqCN4INOFwe8eKgR2/sCrkSS3dVnY7gVPfAFVxh9Bm0B+FR3rZAU99T3VJQGeYNbMxNikMANv4fH9+NQICzZe3XwqS7em2J3ggeW/wCHrUrKA1w7ur68qyZhrxJjd9NKeoqrnA8hVizcB40QHWFDcRvPjRgIIoNi95rIDKQ3zyqbPpHMzUNtJNS2wI1/cVjI0WybBXI593fPZMedTuRnsqNYuORzy5WPqK5gJZLIExlGbkNTqf3yqy9sHEWgvujPB4aKQT5knxrDllVo1g9EXu+dUItrvaewfp9avqAVESARpzE/OpVnkNDUyu3HYPccGAWjeJIgaRMnfw50KxLad9EtrKbty4xJ6ztmMklut291DzcykEcPl2UmxmU1Q9um/wDWtP7H7PQu2Ju6WbHWJO7N90RxjfHcONCQBdC27ZPSMYywIZiYGvw/ZrZYuwLNoYS2Cci5nYbjdZXcHXQhTbBj+q3yqNeV1gWr9luwwVszRbYx3R22fjuA5k7q89ZiSSd5Mmne0G1XuXbdueraUB43NciG8jp51GDXLwnDOhDvaspKWInsXMrA7xxHMHQg+FdtYTLfWQMiSxbmGPUJMb9F03e8aiBqw9wmywQS5yox+9kJMRpr1miOTGulPPzFaGYpw0XBucT3EaMPP1qq71JYuZg9tRKpqp4dWA3nqaZhNn3bvuKY/EdF8/pW8OoE7gctJY/1H1iiFrZt263UXQQMx0Xz4+E0Ww2yLFiekbprgBYqB1RqJ0/uG/hwp2K2ozW2+41sowVZjLyY9/dqKLqSb7oLg3amHVLLDOGYFQQOE8z3A0jiQFVQoBCgGN57Tyqhj36hTcOlMGOAkejCuY3GohhWnw3nsHAd+tWUW0LiLRdv2aVBTtJuXxrlPgYMSNF/2n9nzqltO6c4A4QSf32VeB+0/s+dUdr2+uIjUa/rSU9Ss9ClhrWbfuPGmuyydO6o0knKNPrup+SJB0NXIlm2QQFblIqI3pDADTh4UsQQBA3io0nL2Df461jEuGtSCWOgn4a/SusSw/t18J+tK2TcKrPAz2nt+FdsXMpK9o8tSTWMVb05iI1GlS2JGpjxrl7MTO6abaTnRFLLY8jQR60MxFyZNXHs6QI8SPnTBgwd7oP7gaxihabWpUTfy/elTBRbuBlu6RrH6SP8VPfvrvQ7/wCn1kAEUTBfASAgneoBjipHCK0WF2WzHKgL8QFBJ5bh2isvs3HqmVjiblplj+XbndxDB1ywRuFen+yW2cLZwyhMSGzMzlnBUkk69VjIj9aAydyHZ3sPff3gqD+ttf8AasnwMUOuW8rFQZykjy0rc4Lalu8CUu5wpgwdB4VgXuaE+Nc9VlI5GULaE8yT5kmqu0MN1B31ZG6OyrtrZrYm4lpIA+8ddAAJb1PeQKnKairsNrlr2M2WLVt8a4DFFbo53THWYnkN0/mpuKxrqt0uczB2CMDo/WUI+mmgs6jcc39VGjfQ3uhXq2UQ2VAIKMHTOWPaBbI46NP3jWX2lfNw9YgwI0EAniQO36VzU23Nyks3b+OX18wtbIChqvYe9Iiq1nBXHbLbRnPYNB3ncPGtBgvZdkGfEXVtqBJAI+LHQfGrznCKs3mBIHA1cwmZXkghTIadNDRs3rOHbJbt9fIXzHWQAToZk+7wjUigm07vTWXuOczZurlAChSCYIHvCEOpnV6nHFNaZBbQrimyFUQWLTM8RqO8EZp/MvOtXaxKsgPAqNOzlWQPWAIH2n8sxz+6T2GBrRPa182LAKDNlAX5SfH1qXErHhS8VwRyA6XAl45ZKrmBPPq65jwGbMKqrjN4JDllhtOqQJI/Ny5VWS8zt1jpBMDQeXzplga/vu+ddtuYuEbtstMmdF8PCgk1otuv9mRzIHz+VZ2K6qXhJT1ED3V2mzXatkIbMD7Q/kHrUl/ZYuQwYqw8R5VGP5h/KPU1dtbq4I5M65AbFbIuq4dQGHGDy7DQ/FoQQWUg8QRBrXByK6zKfeWR2iapjJuJkkMkht59Yp2FYEFTubQHtrQ3NlWXkjqk8QePcaF4zZDKMqOHI4Cc3lrRxpgaaKmCuZfAfGf35VI1mbnYwk/TziuWtn3Cx6pB036etEMNslgczONNwGvxNM5IFhYXCJALak8J0+GtWLlqI6I9HEzCLrujU68PjXL1oW4AOm6osReZUJVWY7lgE9Y6AedZO5rGc2gYvMCczT1mjjVn+CESGkc8oontT2fuWsN0lzLOZTcObrSzAHUaQM3Oj2D9jywGZsugO4EDsgNwrOQFExa4UE/4pgeCV/Dp+xXpOG9h043SfyqB6k1W2h7O4S00XL5QfhYKW+HDwoKQcJk9jYQ3MQtknKTOYwJAjMAO2DWkseyqreuW7t3LbbD3rtm7G42QrMGUQCQCeO4VFh8HG07FzB2HuWraiSVKozEOCWZlC7mUzXoON2FfxzWf4o2wtssVtpnMhhlZXYMJBGhA07Ke5rC/0g2Qo2YcVdBL3jccZuCLKqI3fdLT/VWOxJhG7FPpXs+0EFnBXVUKq27DhVQQqhUIAA4AV4xfwzvbYIpMiJ3DzOlc/ETSV2x6SZmDWywGHFm1kLMmIxKuEIBOSFkSdwIkHXedOFVdjezRDq91gcuuUaieEk+kUsRbvPjoJYgOCu6EQZHJHYxCqe0HnXmzrQrScYvJK7LWcSnsjZ2IvWs2VU6QklpMCSZK6TBXKBHAkUSfYeHw6dJeLXOAEaEwWgKN5OU7zG6tLZRVUKogKAAOQFUNuFOilxKhgSPhp51zdslWqqOib2DgwxA9jbQN1LVtFt25OpH3YGWFEBSSSOPu9tBMazhczlnaQC0+7lyK08BOfcBGZTTNn2yWRmGYLkDmBHVg5jOggy3pVbFYlQWJPSM0lguiSddW3nWd0b69aNOFOXdRDN6hLaN5zdQsQSLcmNAJU7yebBoOm8UIt4hVQWwc0Hh7sCQAWO/fw86HYzGvc0Y6D7o0UR2fWpsIRFMotRNbMJbKxTC7rENpA0APP986PYhA6lTuIIrL2/e8/kKN/wAcBazsYjQ9+7x3zXLWp3mpIpfIzYtFC4O8CPiKbhB1vL1n5VNcbNbzcdEPhuPlp4VHgV1/fAH611pZCEPtA2ijt9B+tA6K+0DdZR2E+f8AihINddJd0jPU7XabSqohs1/mH8o9TRK1hmKgqRrwP1/Shin7Q/lHqaNYO+MoGhI315qvc7GVmDjejeGtR9MfwnxosrrSfUaif3wpsRsIHyFtWOnIfM76ntHKIG74VYOGHaPT41E+HYGBr3VnJC2K965J1j51G9+N5J13/WuXUYsQFNTWdmsfeMd2p+lMmgWGWSGMQOyd1XNjXGvXGIBy2myrO4tuLDuBgdjHnU1nA9GCUWTH3t/9sDSi2B2XiXUEWnYQNBoPDXUUykCxFtLZb4iy9pLN28YnLbVyMw1ALDQa8CRUm0dnYxWF02L1sBSIg/iG+JHultdY0MGK9G9jsT0FhbN2ybNwEkrIIaToVIMExAI3gjtFaJdoWiCc4UDfmOUjvB3U0oqS1ExNM8kw2Au4sKFuXDlVUuLb3F1EMSw5nwo9sX2O6NtLIU8XcyfD9KN4rbuHTMEDkz/2bEIfE7vAVmtre0xUS93ol1P8xsxCjMYkyYAJ6orj7RTprCnifwKpN/A177Nw9sTceORJC+Q41TxXtDaTSyC3hlX6/CsLa2v0t82wrtCktcJESGygamTMEzuiOdZ7bW0L6X3BuHKj9JbUDLpbtZiCw95S1xRB/Cal2mtVk4RWHK+YcKWepuds+1vVK3HEN1ejQZi05oBGp1KMvAEiKzuK2pcu9CLKQLiB4fRwudVOg00Rs2/lWf2pdyYnELuCNcuL/citp3Pcc970bGMWza6VkYsC6qFWSAz8BOohVMchpXPWo3wyd5N8/LkNGWuw7aG0eiexaVi2VvtDIkmMsN+HrXbTEaaMI0EUUwOGCy+uZwJJ3xJYd2rE+Q4Vh8Lgmu3OmdggVUF5nbqtcQsrHtMpoOUbtKLYv2sRFCWFNwqAM7SF0Ebt53dlJxHCtpQpa/qDGW7NU9wKCSQAN5J0HfNZbb3tLZZSiL0uoM6hJBka727hoedZrH4y9fYdK5Yawu5R3KNPGlbtQKfhujo02pSd2GU75IV+9cuRnbTgq6KO5RXGtCKlC0q9H4ErAfE24NNsvBojirMihbCNKeOeQAlhzqe75mp1eT0R3Opg8mEZfmPGh2Cu6nupYxznEaEAbu8/Ss0bUvIgAFqd4gg7xcMMIHZoDUWBXXXeJ+Q+tTH/AL8cQTA/7w9Q+pI76cpBltI48sw3+e/xrXAgBttvtO5RQ6re03m6xGo09Kq12x0Iy1Oiu1wUqewpsUP2h/KI8z+lK7sVnOdXXXgZHZvH0qps33j3fStls/BzbVid44d9ee+6zrXeBOBwJt+9cZjyk5R3UQs2WPug+golbw6ruWe+nyaSQ9ivZwh+8YPZrTXw+XhNWQx5VwHnSuxgezCf3NPtmiIwJbeB3n5cat4fZthdSHc/mhfhqe+RUp8TThqw4WX/AGTFllfpERmBBBYTA4RPaK0b7ZVRCgt3DTzrOLisuiIidy6+bSfjUVzEMeJrll0jfKBurCeP2zcYQQqryMH10+FZLG+1FrSGN0h7Vs6mALolGk71jlzrHA3CMNevOTJBtM7SSzGy5A/u6ZYPA1WugIHA3hF/3YfpAvwsvXWuFxu9STfyJOpbRGrxm0MRcwdm6pW3cuOpGU6QQ2RWLc36NW7zQ2zh8twPdTMLl/EWgNWZXcurGPuiLaajhm8btkD+Bui8xZGuui6AdGOm6JYP9LdeT8qp7JxF93tsEZylxHdfdAa7aYlsx03PJ7xzpaSUVKySSbNLOxF7FYi411NQPs2zyCSQtuwFynnJDa9tWds4dulyEm7cFpSxC9Zs7LbJyjd7o7qfgMDbwpRnvHOqqDbt6yRbS2Qx5TbnhOlXLntEzNFq2oZoEkyx5TEdtLOpLrscFdW8gxj3bMdj9jZ8Q1xiMusji0rZBnkPsnHjQvb15i6XFLNbZFKFWAQOrdIGYcZASD2Ecat+0m0SlvoQwa6VDOke/bLZXC8JIJHOAe+s1tPaUqlkksySGY6aTCjTmFBJ7qPD06jtKTvbJeXMMraIgVi7GTpqdeZOp7zvq2loCqmz/e8KIxXU1YCImGo7jUlMPvHuHqafQMcpV01ytqAY1Dsba3mKJ1BilBUiir3MBrTRXbt+WJ7qdft5Y7apgzNXSuT0DWzsSGHRcSMy/nEx5ildOVGtxuX4xJ07pHgKD2SwYZfekRG+eEUd2lai07kZcwAidxYyw8CD50jSUswvNGXauCpsa6m45QQuYx3bp8d8dtRV1oiNzUqVdpgGl2Wese6vQtmpNlDxj51gNkWyXygToa9F2YsWlBGoGteZXqxg82dlJZDFBmplB5fvxqPHY+zZGa66p3nXwG80Iu+05bpOgtM4t2y5dtFHULKI94zHZXI605/lx9SjstQ90I4+lSIgG4ePGgfsptW5fW4L2TOpQjIIGS4gdYnxo9XncROtGeGTHjZq6FNdmmk0prjeuYx0mkGrhNUsdtS1a/mOAeW9vIa08YylK0UZ5amFx15rloWcoItm7kgEtmjEgDvHRoRFFG2C7dI1wraQm51mI3McUJjuvodYqG/7RqmYYayqZmLMx3lm3mP18KBYvG3Lpm45bv3DuG4eFfRx6ySyWFe5yWW5pX2phbKXLYLYgXGLFWg2xLFoWRESZ0nXjVDF+0d65pOVeQ3R2xr8aE4axJ7Y0nnwq7hEAMlQxjuE1upgnd5sZNlclm3n6VqPZvAi1afEupbqno1HvGAZgHidw8edDtj7M6a7H3BqxHLkO01ovaeyuS0xUFLVxSV7D1AV5FSVPcDUK1SLkqfP79wpZXMpib/SHpmCySCAr5gG4hTvyMEstHDpH51mrTSznm1HcSQA0AASxgbtf0geFZ7BHQntrvhploSDOyt7HsFEaobJGjeHzq/SyeYxEN58KlqJd57/AKVLFIwippNdrlbMw01FfbSnXLkVVuvTpAK+MWVFUtn4J7rZUWT8AOZPAUZwmAa7MdVB7zncO7mavdKlq2qWdAX6x0zOAJJPHf6VlUtkgNECYdLIy2zmuElTc7hJCch2/sUNtXIREG6M5E6zr8vSpUvgKqxJEk8gY+nCh20pzOd8AegHzpoRvK7FloCxXKfFNy12ERZaVdy0q2JGNb7Ofzx3H0rXbUuFcLcKkggGCDBHcRSpV8/xn5sfT5ndS8LMpty2C2NYgEjoIJGolVmDwrRWR/xeMHA2bc+TD0pUq7X4F5fQm9Sn7Ce83/69j/5K2FKlXj9Ifnv0+Ral4RGmtSpVwT3Kgn2lusuHYqxU8wSD8K8+mdTSpV7vRy/8fUjW1ImpW6VKvRIMIYcfOrCmlSqTGRrvZIfYt+c+gqT2kP2Ld3zFKlXkT/yPUuvCYTHe435TQTCe74mlSr3YeE5nqGtke63f8qv8KVKkkEis8fzVKdw/fKlSpJbBQxKY9dpVkYrXarYilSp4mZodvdXD2gugkaDQbieHbQe57qnjNz/3R6V2lUqfh9QS8QPtb/P0qTa46jfmHypUq64iz0AsU0UqVdJAlXdXaVKlCf/Z)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: nails on October 03, 2017, 06:16:11 PM
Here's an interesting video from a taxi driver sitting at the Mandalay Bay hotel.

It's unedited and I think gives a little different scene than what the news is showing.
Notice the long periods of time between gunfire. TV news makes it sound like it was constant.
They must be editing the clips to take out the non-firing parts.
Also listen to the shots in the beginning. You can almost hear the difference between firing from the different windows. One burst is quieter, and one burst is very loud, at the same location. There are also echoes bouncing off the buildings, but I think you can hear what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBbOFwWquAw
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBbOFwWquAw)

If you read the comments under the video, your head will really spin.
Talk about conspiracy theories.

Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 03, 2017, 06:28:59 PM
Here's an interesting video from a taxi driver sitting at the Mandalay Bay hotel.

It's unedited and I think gives a little different scene than what the news is showing.
Notice the long periods of time between gunfire. TV news makes it sound like it was constant.
They must be editing the clips to take out the non-firing parts.
Also listen to the shots in the beginning. You can almost hear the difference between firing from the different windows. One burst is quieter, and one burst is very loud, at the same location. There are also echoes bouncing off the buildings, but I think you can hear what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBbOFwWquAw
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBbOFwWquAw)

If you read the comments under the video, your head will really spin.
Talk about conspiracy theories.

I think many people are reluctant to 'accept' what they see on the news today...

from any source, not just one or two particular sources.  Again, the Kennedy Assassination was my earliest 'personal' experience but you can go back a long way in time and find plenty of them.

Let's face it...

there are always a high number of people (may not be a majority but still a lot of people) that just don't 'accept' anything and everything we hear from the government sources and that includes the police.  It's too bad we can't all accept it as fact but it is the way we have gotten over the years :( :( :(
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 03, 2017, 08:03:49 PM
I surmised correctly that contrary to the reports (from supposedly learned people in the crowd) that it was 'automatic weapons fire' from a select fire rifle, it wasn't.  It was a gas blowback semi-auto AR15 platform equipped with a readily  available slide fire butt stock you can buy for 70 bucks and any gun shop, Cabelas included or, online for that matter.

I told people when the videos first started surfacing that it wasn't an automatic weapon - and they told me I didn't know what I was talking about - it was clearly a machine gun.

When I can count the shots - that isn't an automatic weapon.  That is a semi-automatic with some kind of I don't care what I hit - but I want to put out a bunch of bullets - mostly legal POS device on it.

If they ban the sale of those - I have absolutely no issue with it.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 03, 2017, 08:24:56 PM
I told people when the videos first started surfacing that it wasn't an automatic weapon - and they told me I didn't know what I was talking about - it was clearly a machine gun.

When I can count the shots - that isn't an automatic weapon.  That is a semi-automatic with some kind of I don't care what I hit - but I want to put out a bunch of bullets - mostly legal POS device on it.

If they ban the sale of those - I have absolutely no issue with it.

But what if I'm out hunting and I get attacked by a herd of deer...

how will I ever be able to defend myself ??? ??? ???

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTK1MsXAp6GN_bnH8EAu88LmU0P-cIdVsZfU-BrqtQsUShA5lpGXw)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 03, 2017, 08:33:33 PM
But what if I'm out hunting and I get attacked by a herd of deer...

how will I ever be able to defend myself ??? ??? ???

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTK1MsXAp6GN_bnH8EAu88LmU0P-cIdVsZfU-BrqtQsUShA5lpGXw)

Grenade Launcher?

My Viet Nam Vet / Lions Game / Michigan Hockey buddy said it was his favorite weapon.

He said it was good for breaking up crowds.

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8c/a7/55/8ca7558cdb80a4aaecb3c992afc28a39--lakes-vietnam.jpg)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 03, 2017, 08:44:15 PM
I guess if there was ever a time or a reason to steal a truck - this would be a good one.

I guess if it was my truck - I'd have to let the guy slide, and maybe buy him a beer.

http://ijr.com/the-declaration/2017/10/989697-marine-veteran-las-vegas-concert-stole-truck-rush-dozens-shooting-victims-hospital/?utm_campaign=Conservative%20Daily&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=56967775&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-__nGhEf3dFciLgnNLuiD6O1_uxDTYOl7g7HWwUXO_OJuG12nSBTVBU9WczBdrC1mSBOUwzbDxbP7HS54GxPORf_wSBJA&_hsmi=56967775 (http://ijr.com/the-declaration/2017/10/989697-marine-veteran-las-vegas-concert-stole-truck-rush-dozens-shooting-victims-hospital/?utm_campaign=Conservative%20Daily&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=56967775&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-__nGhEf3dFciLgnNLuiD6O1_uxDTYOl7g7HWwUXO_OJuG12nSBTVBU9WczBdrC1mSBOUwzbDxbP7HS54GxPORf_wSBJA&_hsmi=56967775)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 03, 2017, 08:48:05 PM
But what if I'm out hunting and I get attacked by a herd of deer...

how will I ever be able to defend myself ??? ??? ???

([url]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTK1MsXAp6GN_bnH8EAu88LmU0P-cIdVsZfU-BrqtQsUShA5lpGXw[/url])


To each his own...   probably preferences tend to run with what you were most accustomed to.  I trained on grenade launchers in both basic and AIT but my personal preference was the 4" mortar...

it could handle way bigger crowds and you didn't even have to be up close to see all the blood and gore!

(http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_120mm_Mortar_Firing_Afghanistan_lg.jpg)

My MOS (military occupational specialty) was a mortar crewman.  11Charlie...   and yes, it does take an entire crew to handle one of those.  I was actually pretty good with them but unfortunately the skills I developed didn't transfer over to my civilian life very well.  Actually I picked up a lot of info for doing land surveys so I guess that was good.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 03, 2017, 08:52:09 PM
I guess if there was ever a time or a reason to steal a truck - this would be a good one.

I guess if it was my truck - I'd have to let the guy slide, and maybe buy him a beer.

[url]http://ijr.com/the-declaration/2017/10/989697-marine-veteran-las-vegas-concert-stole-truck-rush-dozens-shooting-victims-hospital/?utm_campaign=Conservative%20Daily&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=56967775&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-__nGhEf3dFciLgnNLuiD6O1_uxDTYOl7g7HWwUXO_OJuG12nSBTVBU9WczBdrC1mSBOUwzbDxbP7HS54GxPORf_wSBJA&_hsmi=56967775[/url] ([url]http://ijr.com/the-declaration/2017/10/989697-marine-veteran-las-vegas-concert-stole-truck-rush-dozens-shooting-victims-hospital/?utm_campaign=Conservative%20Daily&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=56967775&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-__nGhEf3dFciLgnNLuiD6O1_uxDTYOl7g7HWwUXO_OJuG12nSBTVBU9WczBdrC1mSBOUwzbDxbP7HS54GxPORf_wSBJA&_hsmi=56967775[/url])


He probably did the truck owner a favor by getting it away from the scene.  I wonder what the blood does long term to the paint though.

Did you ever see where a bloody crash victim has been on the road for a long time (dead and waiting for crash investigators is typical)...   the blood will literally dissolve something in the asphalt and you can see where they were even years later!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 03, 2017, 09:02:52 PM
To each his own...   probably preferences tend to run with what you were most accustomed to.  I trained on grenade launchers in both basic and AIT but my personal preference was the 4" mortar...

it could handle way bigger crowds and you didn't even have to be up close to see all the blood and gore!

([url]http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_120mm_Mortar_Firing_Afghanistan_lg.jpg[/url])

My MOS (military occupational specialty) was a mortar crewman.  11Charlie...   and yes, it does take an entire crew to handle one of those.  I was actually pretty good with them but unfortunately the skills I developed didn't transfer over to my civilian life very well.  Actually I picked up a lot of info for doing land surveys so I guess that was good.


He spent his tour and a half on the fire bases where they would blow off the top of a hill and then bring in the artillery to do fire support missions.  I'm guessing the 155 mm cannons were better than a mortar.

The grenade launcher was just for welcoming anyone who might decide to climb up the mountain to say "hi" to them.

He did mention once that if you thought an especially big crowd was hanging around and wanted to meet you - they would call in a B52 strike or two to make the jungle go away, and make everyone feel better about hanging around on the mountain top.

He said there was every toy an 18 year old would want to play with there, and all the beer you could drink.

When his tour was up he still had a few years of enlistment to go.  They told him he could go to the States or Europe for a few years - or serve 6 more months in the Nam and be done.  He took them up and stayed for 6 more months.  He said he wasn't having that bad of a time, and that got him on with his life that much sooner.  He didn't think he could handle Army chickenshit after hanging in Nam for a year.

Good guy.  Fun at a football game.

Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 03, 2017, 09:06:19 PM
He probably did the truck owner a favor by getting it away from the scene.  I wonder what the blood does long term to the paint though.

Did you ever see where a bloody crash victim has been on the road for a long time (dead and waiting for crash investigators is typical)...   the blood will literally dissolve something in the asphalt and you can see where they were even years later!

I am guessing the smell of the blood in the interior would be tough to deal with.

Probably just ask your insurance company to replace the carpet and seats.....  That isn't going to clean out.  If they were lucky they had the hoseable floor.

Still - who cares?  In the big picture it is no big deal.  More important to get people to the hospital.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 03, 2017, 09:08:28 PM
It appears that photos from the room are leaking.    It appears that he left a note.


(http://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/204/photos/291000/Las-Vegas-Shooting-Pictures-Stephen-Paddock-Body-Motive-Note-Gun-Hotel-Room-Mandalay-Bay-1095291.jpg)

(http://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/204/photos/294000/Las-Vegas-Shooting-Pictures-Stephen-Paddock-Body-Motive-Note-Gun-Hotel-Room-Mandalay-Bay-1095294.jpg)






[
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 03, 2017, 09:26:30 PM
more photos:

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/10/03/14/44FD20C300000578-4944234-image-a-38_1507036054886.jpg)


(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/10/03/14/44FD20BF00000578-4944234-image-m-37_1507036043091.jpg)


(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/10/03/17/44FFC66900000578-4944234-image-a-49_1507047336445.jpg)


(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/10/03/20/450125BE00000578-4944234-image-a-50_1507060177092.jpg)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 04, 2017, 09:40:57 AM
This is the photo that so quickly disappeared on me yesterday:

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/10/03/17/44FFC66900000578-4944234-image-a-49_1507047336445.jpg)

There is a photo floating around that shows where the shooter apparently shot at the door from inside apparently when hotel security approached the door.  He had cameras set up so he could observe the hallway.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 04, 2017, 09:51:33 AM
Note:  the photo I just posted above is one I grabbed from excelsior's excellent string of photos. 

I often hear someone say that some of these shooters (other criminals too) are motivated by all the notoriety they know they will receive even though they know they will most likely die or commit suicide during or after their crime.  Is there any way we can change tactics as a nation to where we avoid giving the criminal so much exposure?

I guess I can kind of answer my own question with the thought that then we would have even more citizens screaming 'cover up' or 'conspiracy theory' :-\ :-\ :-\

The very fact that the LV police are so upset over the release of the photos tends to create some immediate question of 'what are they hiding'?

Something I did notice in various stories I read last night and this morning is that almost every article mentions that police are fairly certain or somewhat certain that this was a single shooter operation. 
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 04, 2017, 10:47:06 AM
I thought I read fairly early on in the investigation that among evidence seized from the shooter's property (somewhere) was some ammonium nitrate.  That is the fertilizer you mix with fuel oil if you want to blow up a federal building somewhere.  Definitely would not have been effective for his Las Vegas assault though.

I haven't heard any other mentions of this...   anyone else recall where and how much authorities may have found? 
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 04, 2017, 10:48:34 AM
It appears that photos from the room are leaking.    It appears that he left a note.

I haven't heard any details on the note yet...

is this going to be another closely guarded secret at this point?






[
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 04, 2017, 10:56:39 AM
He spent his tour and a half on the fire bases where they would blow off the top of a hill and then bring in the artillery to do fire support missions.  I'm guessing the 155 mm cannons were better than a mortar.

The grenade launcher was just for welcoming anyone who might decide to climb up the mountain to say "hi" to them.

He did mention once that if you thought an especially big crowd was hanging around and wanted to meet you - they would call in a B52 strike or two to make the jungle go away, and make everyone feel better about hanging around on the mountain top.

He said there was every toy an 18 year old would want to play with there, and all the beer you could drink.

When his tour was up he still had a few years of enlistment to go.  They told him he could go to the States or Europe for a few years - or serve 6 more months in the Nam and be done.  He took them up and stayed for 6 more months.  He said he wasn't having that bad of a time, and that got him on with his life that much sooner.  He didn't think he could handle Army chickenshit after hanging in Nam for a year.

Good guy.  Fun at a football game.

Yes, a 155 is better in some operations than a mortar but in other operations a mortar is superior.  Both are necessary for a well rounded infantry operation. 

Military weapons fall into 2 basic categories.  Direct fire (something you can see) and indirect fire (something you can't see). 

A mortar is actually a pretty basic weapon and it honestly would not be difficult to build one with a not so big machine shop.  I'm surprised that terrorists have not started using them as weapons of mass destruction.  Again, you can hit targets pretty accurately without being seen and from some distance away from the scene.  The 120 mm mortar has a range of 7200 meters...  that's more than a couple of miles!!!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 04, 2017, 11:57:48 AM
The girlfriend is back in the country and obviously facing some intense grilling. 

http://www.13abc.com/content/news/Las-Vegas-gunmans-girlfriend-flown-back-to-US-449370013.html (http://www.13abc.com/content/news/Las-Vegas-gunmans-girlfriend-flown-back-to-US-449370013.html)

Interesting list of prior occupations:

Quote
Paddock had a business degree from Cal State Northridge. In the 1970s and ’80s, he worked as a mail carrier and an IRS agent and held down a job in an auditing division of the Defense Department, according to the government. He later worked for a defense contractor.


Quote
He had no known criminal record, and public records showed no signs of financial troubles.


One of the very first stories I read Monday morning claimed he was a registered sex offender!  But there were also stories reporting  a completely different person as the shooter and they are in fact still receiving death threats!  I also recall at least one police department claiming he was 'on their radar'...

but for what?
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 04, 2017, 12:40:23 PM
I told people when the videos first started surfacing that it wasn't an automatic weapon - and they told me I didn't know what I was talking about - it was clearly a machine gun.

When I can count the shots - that isn't an automatic weapon.  That is a semi-automatic with some kind of I don't care what I hit - but I want to put out a bunch of bullets - mostly legal POS device on it.

If they ban the sale of those - I have absolutely no issue with it.

While that can be construed by pro firearm advocates as infringement and it is a slippery slope and the NRA will adamantly oppose it, my personal opinion is. no one needs to possess a slide fire butt stock but lets go farther shall we..

Being a life member in the NRA I get every month, my choice of NRA periodicals, this year I'm getting American Rifleman.  American Rifleman is supposed to be about sporting firearms and hunting but over the last year or so, about every page is filled with AR platforms.  AR this and AR that.  What I cannot comprehend is American's fascination with that platform.  Is it a macho thing?  Do people want to emulate the military?  Do people want to emulate LE?  I don't get it.  I find AR's to be ugly firearms that serve no useful purpose in a civilian setting.

It's a military firearm, not a sporting firearm.

I'm also a member of Hunt'in Fool (Cedar City, Utah) and receive their monthly magazine, devoted entirely to out west (and eastern big game hunting) and I've never seen one advertisement or article in it concerning an AR platform.  Ethical hunters don't use AR's.  They might own one or more, but they certainly don't hunt with them and I've never seen any hunters here in Michigan hunting with one either, at least upstanding hunters.  I'm sure there are 'slob' hunters out there that use them, but I've never come across any.

The pictures being released of Paddock's room show it littered with AR platform rifles, some with sliding butt stocks (which I recognized right away because I'm familiar with them.

What will transpire now will be a concerted effort by the anti-firearm faction to ban black guns with a counter push by the NRA to keep them.

My opinion is, they serve no useful purpose (just like slid fire butt stocks) and should be removed from public ownership.  I realize that is a slippery slope but to do it now will save a lot of grief later.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 04, 2017, 02:26:47 PM
Here we go...   how to spot a future madman!!!

Quote
More details are emerging, investigators say, that suggest Paddock’s mental state was deteriorating before the shooting — significant weight loss, an increasingly slovenly physical appearance and an obsession with his girlfriend’s ex-husband.


This seems to describe about half the men I know :-\ :-\ :-\

I do think I'll go shave though...  just in case!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/portrait-emerging-las-vegas-shooter-man-descending-madness/story?id=50275427 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/portrait-emerging-las-vegas-shooter-man-descending-madness/story?id=50275427)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 04, 2017, 07:18:49 PM

Being a life member in the NRA I get every month, my choice of NRA periodicals, this year I'm getting American Rifleman.  American Rifleman is supposed to be about sporting firearms and hunting but over the last year or so, about every page is filled with AR platforms.  AR this and AR that.  What I cannot comprehend is American's fascination with that platform.  Is it a macho thing?  Do people want to emulate the military?  Do people want to emulate LE?  I don't get it.  I find AR's to be ugly firearms that serve no useful purpose in a civilian setting.

It's a military firearm, not a sporting firearm.


The modularity of the AR platform is a big reason why it is so popular.    You can get conversion kits from the 22 LR to the .458 SOCOM.

Is there better firearm to express yourself ?   Apply some cerakote and you will have Colin taking a knee and putting on his police pig socks out of respect.


(https://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/uploaded/thumbnails/projects/31609/KOTED-ARMS-H-167-USMC-Red-H-146-Graphite-Black-H-220-Ridgeway-Blue-H-170-Titanium-and-H-300-High-Gloss-Armor-Clear-63808-full.jpg)


Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 04, 2017, 08:02:01 PM
What will transpire now will be a concerted effort by the anti-firearm faction to ban black guns with a counter push by the NRA to keep them.

My opinion is, they serve no useful purpose (just like slid fire butt stocks) and should be removed from public ownership.  I realize that is a slippery slope but to do it now will save a lot of grief later.

Nope.

It's a slippery slope.

Defend every stinking inch of ground.

However - even the Military has figured out the AR platform is better when used in semi automatic.

Of course - they usually don't engage crowds of 20,000 plus......

 8*
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 04, 2017, 08:25:55 PM
Im still happy I bought my AR15 a couple of years ago when Obama was a big promoter...it works just fine as a semi automatic.  I can't envision any reason that I need to modify it to an automatic..
If it comes to point that a car load of gangbangers wants to disrupt my neighborhood I think I'll be ok..
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 04, 2017, 08:32:06 PM
Every Afghanistan and Iraq vet I've talked to said they NEVER use automatic.

They aim, fire, take a shot.  Repeat. 

That is what they are taught.

Having good optics I am sure helps.

Automatic is movie stuff, and spray and pray - unless you are on a saw or something like that - and even then you are taught short bursts with aiming.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 04, 2017, 09:08:30 PM
Just hearing on Hannity so it must be true..The killer bought 33 of  his rifles in the last year.
It's legal but have to wonder how many people do that..
Should it arouse any suspicion.
Where do you draw the line 1-10-20 ??
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 05, 2017, 10:16:36 AM
I read a couple of articles on my phone during the night (didn't sleep good  :( )  The sheriff is speculating that the shooter was planning on making an escape attempt at some point but in his opinion the unarmed hotel security guard fouled his plans when the guard found his room so soon into the shooting.  The guard was actually wounded in the leg by gunfire through the room door but still managed to help LE evacuate guests on the 32nd floor prior to LE making their 'explosive' entrance.

Not sure what they use now but in the Army we used a glob (non technical term) of C-4 plastic explosive.  Kind of felt like kid's play clay but had a stronger odor!!!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 05, 2017, 10:19:00 AM
I had started reading another article when my eyes finally closed and my phone hit me on the nose!  I tried to read some more but after I hit my nose the 2nd time I called it a night.  The story was an interview from the man that was in the room adjacent to the shooter.  Hopefully I'll run across it today so I can finish it!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 05, 2017, 11:45:53 AM
I posted my thoughts on this over in the hurricane thread:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/353936-all-five-living-former-presidents-to-attend-hurricane-relief (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/353936-all-five-living-former-presidents-to-attend-hurricane-relief)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 05, 2017, 02:45:25 PM
I'm thinking there will be plenty of similar searches across the nation by potential 'copy cat' (seems there is always at least one) shooters! 

http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/news/las-vegas-shooter-stephen-paddock-researched-hotels-near-fenway-park-lollapalooza-chicago-boston-red-sox/2odiv45189601ort6e9tr0zdv (http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/news/las-vegas-shooter-stephen-paddock-researched-hotels-near-fenway-park-lollapalooza-chicago-boston-red-sox/2odiv45189601ort6e9tr0zdv)

How many potential victims might be 'in range' at Tiger Stadium from atop Ford Field or at the "Big House" from atop Crisler Arena" ??? ??? ???

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTeRvDZX_Zr3J_ayr62XQEsbF9OebYJRl-XVCVB-Vqn4YUjl_Mq)


(https://aeroscholar.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/img_0904.jpg)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 05, 2017, 03:12:13 PM
Just saw another article that he had scouted hotels in Chicago too.  Interesting what they can find on a computer or a phone or tablet even long after the fact of 'the search'!

Here's the article on the hotel security guard:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/05/just-job-las-vegas-security-guard-jesus-campos-hailed-braving/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/05/just-job-las-vegas-security-guard-jesus-campos-hailed-braving/)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 05, 2017, 03:14:54 PM
Question for Excelsior (or anyone really...  he just seems to have fresh news on the topic):  do we know what the note in the hotel room said?  I've read repeatedly that it was not a suicide note but now what it was!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 05, 2017, 03:46:53 PM
A few years ago after a shooting I could spot guys on top of the suites at Mich stadium
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 05, 2017, 06:15:58 PM
A few years ago after a shooting I could spot guys on top of the suites at Mich stadium

They are still there.

2 on each end of the suites, 8 total.

It isn't hard to figure out what they are for.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 05, 2017, 06:43:44 PM
And now LE is looking for a mystery woman that was apparently seen with the shooter prior to the shooting.  I guess he had no scruples whatsoever!

http://nypost.com/2017/10/05/investigators-hunt-for-mystery-woman-seen-with-vegas-shooter/ (http://nypost.com/2017/10/05/investigators-hunt-for-mystery-woman-seen-with-vegas-shooter/)

And for everyone always saying the gun laws in Chicago don't work take a look at this article.  He had apparently booked and paid for 2 adjacent rooms in Chicago overlooking the Lollapalooza music festival (up to 100K people a day in attendance) but then apparently he never showed up...   maybe he got to checking up on the Chicago gun laws and didn't want to get in any trouble ;) ;) ;)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-las-vegas-gunman-lollapalooza-20171005-story.html (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-las-vegas-gunman-lollapalooza-20171005-story.html)

I'll bet a lot of hotels are going back and checking their records to see if he had been a guest there recently!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 05, 2017, 09:17:16 PM
(https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2017/10/04/f71d4413-3f3a-486b-9581-9aa20ec48a43/resize/620xg8/7398c821521ff8543065c12c93afc6d6/boots-2017-10-02t140415z-247359453-rc130f64d0b0-rtrmadp-3-usa-lasvegas-shooting.jpg)

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/las-vegas-shooting-cowboy-boots-viral-photo/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/las-vegas-shooting-cowboy-boots-viral-photo/)

As bad as these shootings are at least we often get to read stories of how some hero or a few heroes manage to step up and help do the right thing during a situation probably impossible to imagine to most people.

Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 05, 2017, 09:53:58 PM
The two windows used were on different planes.    This 45 degree offset allowed he to increase his killing field from about 170 to about 215 degrees.     You will see how the shooter used this increased range when they map the ballistics.


Here's one theory on the need for the second window.


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLV0WhIWAAAbZtW.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 05, 2017, 10:31:54 PM
Here's one theory on the need for the second window.


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLV0WhIWAAAbZtW.jpg:large)

I had heard some references to him shooting some Jet Fuel tanks but didn't realize it was in tanks that close to the scene of the shooting.  Looks like it would have been maybe 1000 ft or slightly more from the center of the festival grounds.

Jet Fuel is glorified Kerosene so there was almost no chance of it 'exploding' even if he had been successful at getting a round or two or even 20 or 30 to puncture the tank.  Maybe he had some incendiary rounds he followed up with...   investigators will eventually know the answer to that one too (if they don't already). 

Anyway, I don't see an explosion happening but the sight of a fire burning near or up the side of an obvious storage tank would certainly have made for another distraction.  If the fire was burning alongside the tank long enough it might have gotten hot enough to distort the tank but not sure it ever could have gotten hot enough to rupture.  Even if it ruptured it most likely would have just been a big 'whoosh' of a fire.  The tank probably has a containment dike around it in case of leaks anyway.

The guy certainly had a detailed plan even if it didn't all come together!  I'm guessing he was hoping for a much higher number of Ks than he actually got :( :( :(
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 06, 2017, 09:49:35 AM
Going to be a real effort getting all the personal possessions back to people that lost them or had to leave when running away.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 06, 2017, 10:05:54 AM
A light armor piercing 223 (M191 Green tip, isn't capable of piercing a steel tank wall (even a thin one) at 2000 feet, it don't have enough kinetic (impact) energy to to that.  Even a 7.62 x 54 at 2000 feet (308) has minimal kinetic energy and light armor piercing 7.62 x 54 rounds are not available to the public and never have been to my knowledge.

People need to 'get real' with some of this media spin crap.  Most of it is all phooey anyway.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 06, 2017, 10:12:09 AM
Steel and soft tissue are 2 entirely different mediums when it comes to penetration.  If Paddock was as well versed in firearms and ballistics as the media makes him out to be, he would have know that beforehand.  I don't buy into the fuel tank crap / spin at all.  Just too far for that caliber to do anything. (223 or 308).

You can penetrate soft tissue (human body) at 2000 feet, but not even sheet steel the thickness of a car body.

Don't by into the media hype, it's phooey.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 06, 2017, 10:38:24 AM
it shouldn't be too difficult for investigators to determine if the jet fuel tanks have been shot at recently and they can probably even get a pretty good idea of the probably trajectory which should narrow it down to the potential shooters location.  That has probably already been completed and they have most likely traced the location to the suspect shooter.  They may have more trouble trying to get the time frame of the tank shooting into the overall time line of the entire assault.  Probably either at the beginning and hoping to cause yet another distraction and possibly drive potential victims back towards his location.  The other likely (at least to me) scenario is he did it near or at the very end and was hoping for a big fireball as a 'grande finale' for the evening!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 06, 2017, 10:39:09 AM
The media so dissappointed that the fuel tanks didn't  explode.  Can you imagine the pics they would have had to put in the papers and internet..  And another reason to outlaw guns
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 06, 2017, 11:09:40 AM
it shouldn't be too difficult for investigators to determine if the jet fuel tanks have been shot at recently and they can probably even get a pretty good idea of the probably trajectory which should narrow it down to the potential shooters location.  That has probably already been completed and they have most likely traced the location to the suspect shooter.  They may have more trouble trying to get the time frame of the tank shooting into the overall time line of the entire assault.  Probably either at the beginning and hoping to cause yet another distraction and possibly drive potential victims back towards his location.  The other likely (at least to me) scenario is he did it near or at the very end and was hoping for a big fireball as a 'grande finale' for the evening!


The local newspaper has sources that have told them the tanks were hit.

Las Vegas Strip shooter targeted aviation fuel tanks, source says

Las Vegas Strip mass murderer Stephen Paddock used his Mandalay Bay hotel room to fire bullets at jet fuel tanks Sunday night, a knowledgeable source told the Las Vegas Review-Journal.

The bullets left two holes in one of two circular white tanks. One of the bullets penetrated the tank, but did not cause a fire or explosion near the Route 91 Harvest country music festival, another knowledgeable source said late Wednesday.

The tanks are roughly 1,100 feet from the concert site, where Paddock killed 58 people and wounded almost 500. Several airplane hangars belonging to prominent corporations are also near the tanks.

Within the past couple of days, a construction crew repaired the holes, and FBI agents inspected the tanks and took measurements of the line of fire from Mandalay Bay, the sources said.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/las-vegas-strip-shooter-targeted-aviation-fuel-tanks-source-says/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/las-vegas-strip-shooter-targeted-aviation-fuel-tanks-source-says/)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: old salt on October 06, 2017, 11:40:29 AM
In this video, it sounds like 2 gunmen.  Closer to the 2 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR6DsDGM1no (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR6DsDGM1no)

Could also be echos.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: The Fuzz on October 06, 2017, 12:24:11 PM

The local newspaper has sources that have told them the tanks were hit.

Las Vegas Strip shooter targeted aviation fuel tanks, source says

Las Vegas Strip mass murderer Stephen Paddock used his Mandalay Bay hotel room to fire bullets at jet fuel tanks Sunday night, a knowledgeable source told the Las Vegas Review-Journal.

The bullets left two holes in one of two circular white tanks. One of the bullets penetrated the tank, but did not cause a fire or explosion near the Route 91 Harvest country music festival, another knowledgeable source said late Wednesday.

The tanks are roughly 1,100 feet from the concert site, where Paddock killed 58 people and wounded almost 500. Several airplane hangars belonging to prominent corporations are also near the tanks.

Within the past couple of days, a construction crew repaired the holes, and FBI agents inspected the tanks and took measurements of the line of fire from Mandalay Bay, the sources said.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/las-vegas-strip-shooter-targeted-aviation-fuel-tanks-source-says/ (https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/las-vegas-strip-shooter-targeted-aviation-fuel-tanks-source-says/)

That conflicts with SCF's expert opinion on being able to penetrate those tanks.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 06, 2017, 06:17:58 PM
In this video, it sounds like 2 gunmen.  Closer to the 2 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR6DsDGM1no (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR6DsDGM1no)

Could also be echos.

It sure doesn't do anything to eliminate the 2nd shooter theory.  I'm sure LE will be analyzing that at some point.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 06, 2017, 06:35:14 PM
That conflicts with SCF's expert opinion on being able to penetrate those tanks.

I just was going to comment on SCF's remarks. 

A.  I think he's underestimating the availability of armor piercing rounds.  One of the big issues we had in the Army was accounting for ammo after training sessions.  In a combat situation I don't know how would they even go about trying to account for it.  We quite often had rounds or magazines of rounds missing including armor piercing.  I doubt much has changed in almost 50 years. 

B.  I guess we're all assuming that the shots that hit the tank (only 2 of them total) were from the hotel window.  Perhaps they were from much, much closer (and perhaps by that potential 2nd or even 3rd shooter).  Once the shots started raining down on the crowd anyone could have shot anything in the area and no one would have noticed.

C.  I haven't seen a complete inventory of weapons recovered yet but certainly conceivable that there could have been at least one larger caliber rifle in the mix.  I've shot a .50 caliber and it delivers a lot more recoil than a .223 or 7.62.  That might have been the need for a potential 2nd shooter too.

Hitting that tank even at 2000 feet certainly would not need the skills of a sharpshooter...  it was still a looming target. 

Just listening to the 6:30 national news and they're mentioning that nothing has been ruled out yet as far as potential accomplices.  That could be anyone from a 2nd shooter to a straw buyer for a weapon or maybe a supplier of armor piercing ammo. 

One thing to keep in mind is this guy had practically unlimited resources financially.  Request something on the black market and be prepared to pay dearly and you'll probably have it in very short order.

Hopefully we'll know more about the shots that hit the jet fuel tank soon.  It's not going to take a lot of investigation to figure out what caliber it was and the direction and even the distance the shots came from.

Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 06, 2017, 08:17:43 PM
I saw another newscast later and they said that LE has all but ruled out a 2nd shooter...

which translates to 'they haven't ruled it out yet'! 

And even when they do rule it out there is still going to be a lot of theories out there that says they're wrong.

Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 06, 2017, 08:23:10 PM
I'm seeing lots of reports that the shooter had brought along tracer bullets...   did he ever actually use them during the attack?

I'm thinking he was hoping to use these to ignite the fuel leaking from the tank. 

The down side to a series of tracer bullets is they not only show the shooter where his shots are hitting but they also tend to point back to where the shooter is located. Seems like he may have been hoping to keep a low profile at least early on in the attack.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 07, 2017, 09:05:25 AM
Seeing more on 'the note' now on tv...   they say it is a series of numbers and very cryptic...   nothing like a little extra mystery when you're slaughtering dozens!

LE still believes he was a lone shooter although they do believe he may have help with the planning and they do know that some of the ammunition was bought by other people.  They now believe the mysterious woman was just a local Las Vegas hooker and was most likely not involved in the overall 'plot'.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 07, 2017, 12:39:30 PM
Go online and load up the G2 or G7 ballistics calculator and plug in an appropriate bullet.  Usually a 223 / 556 projectile (22 caliber) is a 55 grain FMJ spire point or modified hollow point round and a typical 308 (7.62 x 54) 30 caliber will be a 168 grain FMJ.

He was shooting factory ammunition, not handloads so user the median propellant load for each caliber and the ballistics calculator will tell you what the kinetic energy and bullet drop is at any distance you want.

I'm telling all of you, there is no way (unless he hit a weak point on the tanks) that either will penetrate steel at that distance.  No possible, but don't take my word for it.  Download the ballistics calculator and see for yourself.

If the tanks were indeed shot and holed, it wasn't Paddock that shot them.  Too far and the caliber with factory loads isn't capable of doing the deed.

Again, I don't buy into the media BS, especially in this instance.

I can probably load up a round that would make the trip but it's not going to be anything the average shooter would use or would have available.  In actuality, to develop kinetic energy, the cartridge would have to be loaded way above the acceptable SAMMI pressure and all facroey ammo is loaded BELOW that pressure point.

What I'm saying is, to make the trip and retain enough kinetic energy to penetrate the steel, it would be a one shot deal because the firearm that the round was shot in, the bolt would not open without outside force, hammer the bolt open and , the case would have to be physically driven out.

Conversely, if it was detonated in a semi-auto gas blowback rifle, the action would lock because the case would not eject.

Candidly, I don't give a hoot one way or another about if he did shoot them or not.  I don't believe anyone will ever know the actual truth about the whole incident and the media has already so muddied the facts that it's hard to discern facts from media fantasy.

Like Don Henley's song 'Dirty Laundry'.  All it is and all it ever will be.

The 'theory' that he shot the tanks is media conjecture and strictly BS.

I do this stuff all the time and I know what various calibers are capable of and what they aren't capable of.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 07, 2017, 12:43:11 PM
Don't take my word for it, load up the ballistics calculator and see for yourself.  Ballistics calculators are available no the .net and are free downloads.  I use the G2-G7 calculator because I load Berger Bullets but anyone will work.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 07, 2017, 12:54:50 PM
Go online and load up the G2 or G7 ballistics calculator and plug in an appropriate bullet.  Usually a 223 / 556 projectile (22 caliber) is a 55 grain FMJ spire point or modified hollow point round and a typical 308 (7.62 x 54) 30 caliber will be a 168 grain FMJ.

He was shooting factory ammunition, not handloads so user the median propellant load for each caliber and the ballistics calculator will tell you what the kinetic energy and bullet drop is at any distance you want.

I'm telling all of you, there is no way (unless he hit a weak point on the tanks) that either will penetrate steel at that distance.  No possible, but don't take my word for it.  Download the ballistics calculator and see for yourself.

If the tanks were indeed shot and holed, it wasn't Paddock that shot them.  Too far and the caliber with factory loads isn't capable of doing the deed.

Again, I don't buy into the media BS, especially in this instance.

I can probably load up a round that would make the trip but it's not going to be anything the average shooter would use or would have available.  In actuality, to develop kinetic energy, the cartridge would have to be loaded way above the acceptable SAMMI pressure and all facroey ammo is loaded BELOW that pressure point.

What I'm saying is, to make the trip and retain enough kinetic energy to penetrate the steel, it would be a one shot deal because the firearm that the round was shot in, the bolt would not open without outside force, hammer the bolt open and , the case would have to be physically driven out.

Conversely, if it was detonated in a semi-auto gas blowback rifle, the action would lock because the case would not eject.

Candidly, I don't give a hoot one way or another about if he did shoot them or not.  I don't believe anyone will ever know the actual truth about the whole incident and the media has already so muddied the facts that it's hard to discern facts from media fantasy.

Like Don Henley's song 'Dirty Laundry'.  All it is and all it ever will be.

The 'theory' that he shot the tanks is media conjecture and strictly BS.

I do this stuff all the time and I know what various calibers are capable of and what they aren't capable of.

And 'what if' he was using a .50 caliber?   Unless you've seen an inventory of the 30 some various weapons that I haven't seen how do we know he didn't have one on hand just for the purpose of those tanks ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 07, 2017, 01:00:52 PM
I was googling for more on the hotel guard...

interesting article from CNN that says that once the shooter was distracted by the hotel guard he never went back to shooting out the windows...   that may have saved literally hundreds of lives!!!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/las-vegas-shooting-alarm-led-to-discovery-of-shooters-position/ar-AAsY5NE?li=BBnb7Kz (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/las-vegas-shooting-alarm-led-to-discovery-of-shooters-position/ar-AAsY5NE?li=BBnb7Kz)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 08, 2017, 08:48:34 AM
And 'what if' he was using a .50 caliber?   Unless you've seen an inventory of the 30 some various weapons that I haven't seen how do we know he didn't have one on hand just for the purpose of those tanks ??? ??? ???

I am pretty sure you wouldn't use a bump stock with one of those......

Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 08, 2017, 09:59:29 AM
I am pretty sure you wouldn't use a bump stock with one of those......

I don't recall ever stating that he did use a bump stock on "one of those"...

could you point out for me as to just where I stated that ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 08, 2017, 10:35:53 AM
Sounds like the numerical 'note' left behind by the shooter was just his calculation sheet for trajectory drop between his 'window' perch and the concert field below.

Revised to add the link which I forgot to post originally:

http://www.monroenews.com/zz/news/20171007/las-vegas-gunman-made-notes-to-target-shooting-area (http://www.monroenews.com/zz/news/20171007/las-vegas-gunman-made-notes-to-target-shooting-area)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: The Fuzz on October 08, 2017, 11:17:26 AM
Don't take my word for it, load up the ballistics calculator and see for yourself.  Ballistics calculators are available no the .net and are free downloads.  I use the G2-G7 calculator because I load Berger Bullets but anyone will work.

I don't need to bother and waste my time, I trust your word as the expert!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 08, 2017, 03:26:58 PM
I don't need to bother and waste my time, I trust your word as the expert!

Not an expert, just follow the science of external ballistics.  Nothing more.  Pretty easy to extrapolate with the right program with all the formulas built in.  You enter the constants and the program provides the answers....
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 08, 2017, 03:29:20 PM
Sounds like the numerical 'note' left behind by the shooter was just his calculation sheet for trajectory drop between his 'window' perch and the concert field below.

Revised to add the link which I forgot to post originally:

[url]http://www.monroenews.com/zz/news/20171007/las-vegas-gunman-made-notes-to-target-shooting-area[/url] ([url]http://www.monroenews.com/zz/news/20171007/las-vegas-gunman-made-notes-to-target-shooting-area[/url])


And note...  not the fuel tanks.  He knew that what he was shooting (caliber) would not reach (and penetrate the tank walls).  I'll give him that much.

Still no motive, maybe there isn't one.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 08, 2017, 05:53:33 PM
I don't recall ever stating that he did use a bump stock on "one of those"...

could you point out for me as to just where I stated that ??? ??? ???

You didn't say he was.

However - you were speculating that he could have used a .50.  I was kind of refuting that he could have been from what I have heard.

All the videos audio has a fairly rapid pace of fire - which has been credited to the bump stop.  At no time did I ever hear single shot large caliber bangs going off on the videos / audio I got subjected to.  A .308, .223, or .50 make very different sounds - right?  Especially the .50 would make a pretty distinctive bark.

So what I heard was rapid fire, but not fully automatic, from a smaller caliber.

I don't know may 50 or 60 year olds that can rapid fire a .50.  Just saying.

Hence my statement BRD.  I never said you said it.  I was just making an observation.

Sorry if you thought i was saying you did.

Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: The Fuzz on October 08, 2017, 06:00:01 PM
Not an expert, just follow the science of external ballistics.  Nothing more.  Pretty easy to extrapolate with the right program with all the formulas built in.  You enter the constants and the program provides the answers....

Yup.....and I knew that.  Your knowledge probably saved 10 minutes of my time in not bothering to research it.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 08, 2017, 07:13:18 PM
Yup.....and I knew that.  Your knowledge probably saved 10 minutes of my time in not bothering to research it.

10 minutes that could be used to do something important - like researching new herbs or who to pick up on the fantasy team.

 ;D
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 08, 2017, 07:33:07 PM
Not an expert, just follow the science of external ballistics.  Nothing more.  Pretty easy to extrapolate with the right program with all the formulas built in.  You enter the constants and the program provides the answers....

It would provide half of the answer.   The second data point required would be the tensile strength of the impacted material.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 08, 2017, 07:35:30 PM
It would provide half of the answer.   The second data point required would be the tensile strength of the impacted material.

And the gauge of the materials, etc etc etc.

Or you can make assumptions - but we all know what that can result in.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: The Fuzz on October 08, 2017, 07:38:23 PM
10 minutes that could be used to do something important - like researching new herbs or who to pick up on the fantasy team.

 ;D

The new craze is to cook "goodies" with THC extracted and made into a form of butter.....not that I'd research stuff like that.  LOL

I didn't do the Fantasy League thing this year....but I really did enjoy that.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 08, 2017, 08:09:51 PM
The new craze is to cook "goodies" with THC extracted and made into a form of butter.....not that I'd research stuff like that.  LOL

I didn't do the Fantasy League thing this year....but I really did enjoy that.

I didn't like it.    I wish that I would have know this:


“In a nutshell, eaten cannabis gets metabolized by the liver, so delta-9 THC becomes 11-hydroxy-THC, which passes the blood-brain barrier more rapidly and has more of a psychedelic effect than standard THC.”


Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: The Fuzz on October 08, 2017, 08:23:17 PM
I haven't tried it but know of a few that have.  Their experience was described as more of a body buzz, and a little more mellowing.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 08, 2017, 09:17:05 PM
I haven't tried it but know of a few that have.  Their experience was described as more of a body buzz, and a little more mellowing.

My experience was 14 hours of vertigo.   I was hoping for peaceful night of rest and it felt like I was in Dorothy's house leaving Iowa headed for Oz.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Professor H on October 09, 2017, 11:10:36 AM
My experience was 14 hours of vertigo.   I was hoping for peaceful night of rest and it felt like I was in Dorothy's house leaving Iowa headed for Oz.
Oooh...  sorry to hear!
 mine was a mellow experience for relaxing at night - but it was a gummy bear not a brownie!

Shame the fantasy league fell through -  no reason to watch the games now. 

I guess that we've impacted the lower ratings
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 09, 2017, 07:34:20 PM
This really changes the timeline.   The hotel has a lot to explain why the delay in letting the police know what room the shooter was in.

New revelations: Las Vegas gunman shot security guard before opening fire on concertgoers, police say

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-vegas-shooting-20171009-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-vegas-shooting-20171009-story.html)


Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Monroe Native on October 09, 2017, 07:48:20 PM
That would explain why a security guard knocked on a door where there was shooting taking place without any weapon.

He didn't!

 8*
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 09, 2017, 08:26:38 PM
Another case of trying to cover up something or just to much confusion at the time and now they are able to sort it out??
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Professor H on October 09, 2017, 08:44:52 PM
Surprised they don't consider the guard as an accomplice....   200 rounds and only a leg wound? 
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 10, 2017, 10:13:14 AM
Surprised they don't consider the guard as an accomplice....   200 rounds and only a leg wound?

Must be the 'bum stock inaccuracy'....  The whole thing is getting twisted up with lies and spins.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 10, 2017, 10:50:11 AM
Authorities haven't figured out yet they eventually get caught when they lie and fabricate situations.  Of course most of the time there are no repercussions.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 10, 2017, 07:14:49 PM


What's with the numerous changing timelines?

Lombardo also revealed that Paddock checked in to Mandalay Bay on Sept. 25, three days earlier than previously reported.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/homicides/sheriff-says-paddock-shot-security-guard-before-opening-fire-on-festival (https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/homicides/sheriff-says-paddock-shot-security-guard-before-opening-fire-on-festival)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 11, 2017, 10:11:20 AM
It appears we are now in that typical 'in between' stage where there often appear to be conflicting information.  Give the investigators time to go through everything and put all their heads together and put all the facts (or at least strong theories) together and put together an accurate timeline (that seems to be what is jumping around quite a bit right now...  eventually it will all fit). 

Or, as some people are bound to say...

make all the lies fit together!!!

Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 11, 2017, 10:29:58 AM
I understand all the confusion around what happened and when.  Everyone seems to want to be the one with all the answers..They take what they hear and run with it.  I would guess it takes days to review everything and put together the timeline.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 11, 2017, 10:37:41 AM
I understand all the confusion around what happened and when.  Everyone seems to want to be the one with all the answers..They take what they hear and run with it.  I would guess it takes days to review everything and put together the timeline.

I still see 'new' revelations on the JFK assassination...   some are somewhat factual due to new technology...

others are just fodder to get you to read an article.  I'm guessing this shooting will probably be under 'scrutiny' for decades and that not everyone is ever going to agree with the findings!

Some of the 'theories' I've seen are so far off the wall they go beyond common sense...

and some others make a lot of sense.  I'm not posting links or commenting at this point...

read 'em and make up your own mind. 

The biggest thing is try to leave your politics out of your reviews...   some of the theories are so far left or so far right they should fall right off the wall anyway.

Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Professor H on October 11, 2017, 11:22:04 AM
Guard shot first -   before the public -  yet didn't contact anyone to tell the floor room he was on?
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 11, 2017, 03:43:57 PM
Wasn't he able to call?  Can't imagine a guard without a phone.  What about using fire alarm??
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 11, 2017, 04:59:13 PM
Wasn't he able to call?  Can't imagine a guard without a phone.  What about using fire alarm??


Police reported yesterday that the security guard both called and radioed to alert the hotel team:

“He called it in before” the attack began, possibly using a hallway phone to contact hotel security, Clark County Assistant Sheriff Tom Roberts told The Times in an interview. “He manually called down and he used his radio to call. … That’s what we were briefed this morning.”

Roberts said he didn’t know precisely what time Campos called in his own shooting before the assault on the concert began, or whether the hotel immediately passed the information to police.

“We just don’t know how long it took him to call. He’s getting shot at, he’s running, he’s getting shot, he finds some cover, that’s when he starts calling in,” Roberts said.

A spokeswoman for the company that owns Mandalay Bay seemed to dispute the police timeline given to The Times on Tuesday but did not explain why.

“This remains an ongoing investigation with a lot of moving parts. As evidenced by law enforcement briefings over the past week, many facts are still unverified and continue to change as events are under review,” MGM Resorts International spokeswoman Debra DeShong said in a statement. “We cannot be certain about the most recent timeline that has been communicated publicly, and we believe what is currently being expressed may not be accurate.”

DeShong added, “It is not appropriate for us to comment further at this time on what remains an open matter for law enforcement.”


http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-las-vegas-guard-20171010-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-las-vegas-guard-20171010-story.html)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 11, 2017, 05:48:56 PM
Keep hearing 6 mins elapsed between the guard being shot and when the gunman starting shooting people at the concert..  I imagine the hotel guard took some time to ensure he was out of danger before he called anyone..
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 11, 2017, 09:00:05 PM
I read an article on my phone today.  It might have been on AOL News.  The hotel engineer (whatever that is) was also shot at during the initial rounds fired down the hall.  That is literally the first time I've heard anything about an engineer being involved.  Apparently he was being shot at while the security guard was being shot.  Seems to be a lot of confusion on the info that is coming out of the hotel and their staff. 

I'm curious if the hotel security team (a hotel that big had to have more than one active security guard on duty I would think) keeps a recording of their staff's radio calls similar to what central dispatch does.  I have no idea if a private business is required to keep one or not. 

Anyway, if there is a backup then investigators should be able to compare the timeframe between the hotel tape and the central dispatch tape and know to the 10th of a second how much difference there is between the calls.  Without a recording to go from then it's anyone's guess.  I can realistically see it taking a couple of minutes depending on who was on the radio desk when the security guard called downstairs.  That person may have had to get permission to call or pass the info along to a person that had the authority to call.  And if the shooting outside had started then it's entirely possible that central dispatch was so overwhelmed with phone calls that they might not have been able to answer the hotels call for 3-4-5 or maybe even '6' minutes!!!  Although I know the call is recorded I doubt that anything records how many times the phone rings before it is answered by an 911 operator.

Don't make too much out of this 'big gap'...   it might not have been as long as many think and there might have been a very good reason it took so long.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 11, 2017, 09:28:13 PM
I think some people are trying to insinuate that the hotel is incompetent and if they reacted quicker maybe nobody would have been shot other than the hotel guys.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 12, 2017, 09:37:53 AM
I think some people are trying to insinuate that the hotel is incompetent and if they reacted quicker maybe nobody would have been shot other than the hotel guys.

I'm sure the hotel has a full legal team working behind the scenes to try to minimize the legal fallout...   there are going to be lots of lawsuits...   I think that is a given in today's society.  At this point the hotel probably has by far the deepest pockets so they will be the prime target.


This is not the same article I saw that I mentioned reading on my phone but it's what I could find to post.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/worker-warned-hotel-before-las-vegas-shooter-opened-fire-on-crowd/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/worker-warned-hotel-before-las-vegas-shooter-opened-fire-on-crowd/)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: excelsior on October 12, 2017, 02:32:05 PM

This behavior is inexcusable.

Tomorrow's news:   Mandalay Bay resort files for bankruptcy.   


Mandalay Bay staff did not call Las Vegas police until mass shooter Stephen Paddock had already begun firing on concertgoers, a source who has reviewed the records told ABC News Wednesday.

That means the hotel did not call police when security guard Jesus Campos first reported that someone was shooting on the 32nd floor, or when building engineer Stephen Schuck also internally reported someone was firing at him on the same floor.



http://abc7chicago.com/source-mandalay-bay-did-not-call-police-until-shooter-began-firing-on-crowd/2521753/ (http://abc7chicago.com/source-mandalay-bay-did-not-call-police-until-shooter-began-firing-on-crowd/2521753/)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 12, 2017, 03:31:04 PM
Criminal defense lawyers are in a slim pool with politicians. How the hell is the Vegas police force going to make their way from wherever they are to the 32nd floor in 5 mins?
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 12, 2017, 04:04:41 PM
Can I sue too?  I need some extra money.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 12, 2017, 07:03:47 PM
Can I sue too?  I need some extra money.

Of course you can sue...   it's the constitutional right of each and every one of us to be able to sue for just about anything!

Now, in this particular situation I'm guessing that the attorney you hire is going to be the only person that is going to end up with any 'extra' money ;) ;) ;)

Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 12, 2017, 07:16:21 PM
Criminal defense lawyers are in a slim pool with politicians. How the hell is the Vegas police force going to make their way from wherever they are to the 32nd floor in 5 mins?
Actually, some of the very worst politicians were (are) lawyers!!!

Maybe, on a long shot if one or two of the local LE officers maybe happened to be driving by or even sitting in the parking lot of the hotel then maybe, just maybe, they could have gotten the dispatch and made it inside and gotten to the 32nd floor on the elevator...  not sure what LE procedure is in using an elevator in that scenario though.  So, now you've got one or two street patrol officers with sidearms and possibly a riot shotgun...   not a real good matchup against the multiple weapons the shooter had in the room.

However, we know that it wasn't patrol officers who made the entry to the room.  It was probably some kind of a swat team since we know from very early on that they used an explosive device (go back and check one of my early posts where I mentioned it was possibly just some C-4 plastic explosive.  Most cities don't have a full swat team just sitting around waiting for a call but rather they have to be paged and / or dispatched and then respond to the scene.  That could easily be another 15 minutes or even longer depending on a lot of variables. 

I suppose if maybe the local swat team was having a meeting on the 2nd or 3rd floor they maybe could get their act together and make it up to the 32nd floor in 5 minutes...  but the odds are against that one!!!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 12, 2017, 07:21:01 PM
just seems far fetched to think a call to 911 could have averted the shooting at the concert.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Maverick on October 12, 2017, 07:37:19 PM
Yes, Who would have thought that because there were shots coming from a guest room that there was an imminent threat of slaughter to a concert going on in the parking lot. In hindsight, armchair wanna be SWAT members would have handled it oh so perfectly.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 12, 2017, 08:17:49 PM
Yes, Who would have thought that because there were shots coming from a guest room that there was an imminent threat of slaughter to a concert going on in the parking lot. In hindsight, armchair wanna be SWAT members would have handled it oh so perfectly.

Ah yes...  the "Monday morning quarterbacks" make it all look so simple! 

We've heard that the shooter (I refuse to post his name...  trying not to give him any of the notoriety he was hoping for) had rented a suite of rooms in Chicago and then was a no show...   cold feet?

Maybe he would have gotten cold feet again this time...   but once he took the 'first step' of shooting at the security guard and the 'hotel engineer' (is that a fancy designation for a 'fix it' person?) then he was pretty well obligated to start his mass shooting or start trying to get out of the hotel before LE arrived.

I wonder at what point he broke out the windows.  I know I saw a video (not sure if it was posted here or not) that the poster speculated at what point on the tape the windows were smashed out but not sure if there is any way to tie that video to the actual time frame.  I'm sure they can get it within a minute or two but I mean right down to the second.

(https://img0.etsystatic.com/145/1/11371477/il_340x270.1068424008_ohcy.jpg)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 12, 2017, 08:49:16 PM
The cop OJ made famous, Mark Furman said after a few hundred shots were fired out of the hotel room the police dept is not going to send your regular cops to the scene.  It calls for a swat team with the means to blow the door out.. So to be accusing the hotel of mishandling the situation is absurd..
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 13, 2017, 10:10:41 AM
I read an article last night that the shooter was somehow able to gain access to the hotel's freight elevator and that is how he was able to move so much hardware up to the floor his suite was on.  Still seems like someone could have seen him at ground level (or maybe basement) bringing in carts or dollies or whatever.  Do hotel guests typically have access to the freight elevator?

The same article mentioned that the FBI has located at least 60 private surveillance videos and none of them show him being with anyone else. 

I thought early on we saw a report that he had been spotted with a woman and later they figured out she was one of the local hotel 'comfort gals'!

So many things seem to have changed from early on to now...

how much more will change by the time we get a 'final' report ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Professor H on October 13, 2017, 03:18:13 PM
That final report will be held up for years - with all the legal issues.   Can't imagine anyone winning those in LV-  their laws are set to protect the businesses not let them get sued out of business
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 13, 2017, 04:46:54 PM
The public will never know the facts surrounding the Paddock shootings.  It's a 'need to know' and you don't need to know.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 13, 2017, 05:56:19 PM
Not the time to be sarcastic but if only the republicans would have listened to democrats we would have had total gun control and this wouldn’t have happened.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 13, 2017, 07:53:11 PM
The public will never know the facts surrounding the Paddock shootings.  It's a 'need to know' and you don't need to know.

it that becomes the scenario then I think a lot of people will be wondering who the government is protecting!!!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 13, 2017, 08:25:01 PM
That final report will be held up for years - with all the legal issues.   Can't imagine anyone winning those in LV-  their laws are set to protect the businesses not let them get sued out of business

I'm guessing a lot of people will sue in Federal Court just for that reason!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 14, 2017, 09:40:57 AM
Just listening to 13ABC Toledo news.  There is a country and western music concert at ProMedica Park on the river in Toledo tonight (hope I got most of that right).  Toledo Police Department is definitely concerned of a possible 'copy cat' event and are working on an even higher level of security than they had previously.


No doubt the man in this video is a bit on the extreme end with his opinions but he also brings up some very valid points...   including indications of multiple shooters!

JESUS CAMPOS VEGAS SHOOTING SUSPECT GOES MISSING! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnrS7JWqUY0&feature=youtu.be#)

Below is a link to the same video but it will open in it's own window and should also show you links to 'similar' video topics.  Some of those are from extremists both left and right!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnrS7JWqUY0&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnrS7JWqUY0&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 16, 2017, 09:45:00 AM
Seems like 'official' information coming out of Vegas has slowed to a drip...

lots and lots of speculation flowing though ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Professor H on October 17, 2017, 09:36:00 AM
Seems like 'official' information coming out of Vegas has slowed to a drip...

lots and lots of speculation flowing though ;) ;) ;)


Even more now with the infamous "security guard" now missing... 

Was also interesting to hear "former" security questioning why he wasn't armed and what the hell he was really doing as they didn't have the alarm he claimed he was responding to... 

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-jesus-campos-vegas-20171016-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-jesus-campos-vegas-20171016-story.html)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 17, 2017, 09:43:34 AM
Even more now with the infamous "security guard" now missing... 

Was also interesting to hear "former" security questioning why he wasn't armed and what the hell he was really doing as they didn't have the alarm he claimed he was responding to... 

[url]http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-jesus-campos-vegas-20171016-story.html[/url] ([url]http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-jesus-campos-vegas-20171016-story.html[/url])


The video I posted above has lots of questions about the security guard too. 

If there is some kind of conspiracy (sounding more likely at this point) he may be what ends up 'tripping' everything up. 

Having a security guard accomplice would easily explain how the shooter was able to get so much hardware up 32 floors undetected!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Professor H on October 17, 2017, 09:52:18 AM
The feds were letting him go on the speakers tour - to see what he would say most likely - and then he disappeared...   nothing more conspiracy than that! 
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 17, 2017, 03:33:52 PM
The feds were letting him go on the speakers tour - to see what he would say most likely - and then he disappeared...   nothing more conspiracy than that!


More on the missing security guard:

http://www.dailywire.com/news/22364/las-vegas-security-guard-who-discovered-mass-emily-zanottihttp: (http://www.dailywire.com/news/22364/las-vegas-security-guard-who-discovered-mass-emily-zanottihttp:)

So, the shooter has a 2nd home in Reno which combined LE had gone over closely and decided it needed to be preserved so they assigned both local and state and federal units to 'keep an eye' on things there...

but 'somehow' it was still compromised and someone or someones managed to gain access...

Reminds me of the cartoons we would see of the kids sneaking under the hidden out deputy's car and chaining the rear axle to a tree and then racing by to get the deputy to chase them...

kaboom!!!

//www.dailywire.com/news/22174/fbi-back-reno-after-burglars-elude-security-and-emily-zanotti

Or...

is this just the 'setup' for the cover story for something 'major' down the road :-\ :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 17, 2017, 03:46:55 PM
Maybe authorities have the witness tucked away for his own benefit.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 17, 2017, 03:48:24 PM
Maybe authorities have the witness tucked away for his own benefit.

Entirely possible...

and, of course, that opens up and entire new line of questioning ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: Professor H on October 19, 2017, 06:26:23 PM
The guard ended up on the Ellen show - so apparently he's not in hiding. 
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 20, 2017, 10:05:53 AM
The guard ended up on the Ellen show - so apparently he's not in hiding.

I saw an article Wednesday night on my phone saying he would be on Ellen...   I kind of wanted to watch it but timing didn't work out for that. 

He does seem to be enjoying the transition from being in the background as a security person into the floodlights!!!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 20, 2017, 10:15:16 AM
I don't know what it would take for me to watch Ellen.  This wasn't it
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 20, 2017, 10:31:30 AM
Isn't 'Ellen' gay?
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 20, 2017, 10:44:18 AM
I think I've seen a pic of her with her partner that seems to be the same sex as her
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: The Fuzz on October 20, 2017, 09:31:25 PM
Isn't 'Ellen' gay?

Yes, her and Dick Cheney's daughter hooked up, and they have occasional threesomes with Cher and Sony Bono's daughter.

I don't know what it would take for me to watch Ellen.  This wasn't it

Pot, lots of pot!   ;)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: SidecarFlip on October 21, 2017, 08:00:11 PM
Isn't Rachel Madcow a carpet muncher too?
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 26, 2017, 07:14:45 AM
I saw several news reports last night that the shooter's brother has been arrested on multiple child porn charges!
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on October 26, 2017, 10:29:30 AM
And this story is getting more bizzare.  Rumor has it the wounded hotel guard drove to Mexico and then returned.  Doctors saying that if he was shot with the AR15 like it was reported it's unlikely he could manage that long of a drive.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 26, 2017, 01:31:46 PM
And this story is getting more bizzare.  Rumor has it the wounded hotel guard drove to Mexico and then returned.  Doctors saying that if he was shot with the AR15 like it was reported it's unlikely he could manage that long of a drive.

There's been discussion (arguments too) for years on if AR 15 bullets 'tumble' before they hit a victim or do they start after striking something solid like a bone?

So many variables it would be hard to make a generalization on the security guard's situation without having a lot more information...   information that may at this point only be a guess.
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on October 27, 2017, 08:55:44 AM
I'm seeing a bit of an uptick on the recent talk of a potential '2nd shooter' in  Las Vegas. 
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: BigRedDog on January 21, 2018, 04:26:48 PM
NO 2nd shooter but sounding like they have an accomplice of some sort (not the girlfriend).

Interesting that they've found child porn on his computer. 

What is the tie to child porn with some of these 'extremists'?

His brother had issues with child porn so maybe he will turn out to be the accomplice :-\


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/19/las-vegas-shooter-paddock-had-child-porn-on-computer-fbi-investigating-person-interest-sheriff.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/19/las-vegas-shooter-paddock-had-child-porn-on-computer-fbi-investigating-person-interest-sheriff.html)
Title: Re: Was there a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas?
Post by: blue2 on January 21, 2018, 05:10:06 PM
Porn is porn.  Guys have been watching for years at bachelor party's etc but child porn is sickening..