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Categories => Businesses => Topic started by: Professor H on November 17, 2017, 09:36:14 PM

Title: Tesla
Post by: Professor H on November 17, 2017, 09:36:14 PM

never could figure out how the business model works...  but apparently rich greenies have lots of money they don't need so they give it to Tesla?

How do you get someone to give you $250K for a vehicle that they will deliver in 2020?


http://fortune.com/2017/11/17/tesla-ambition-drain-finances-analysts/ (http://fortune.com/2017/11/17/tesla-ambition-drain-finances-analysts/)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: The Fuzz on November 18, 2017, 09:55:50 AM
Meijer's is jumping in!

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/mobility/2017/11/17/meijer-tesla-semi/107777724/ (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/mobility/2017/11/17/meijer-tesla-semi/107777724/)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Professor H on November 20, 2017, 11:15:33 AM
And it reminds me of the ...  look squirrel...  mentality! 

Can't make more than 3 cars a day right now -  but they are breaking out the race car and Semi intro's   
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on November 20, 2017, 11:34:07 AM
Muskmelon / Tesla is heavily subsidized by the government (aka: you and me with no choice), much like the corn distillers, so, they both can act with big pockets and aren't doomed to fail.

Very poor business model IMO but, poor or not, it works for now.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on November 20, 2017, 04:04:12 PM
I don't think I'm totaly against the government helping a start up if there appears to be great potential in the product..But at some point the business needs to produce or close up.  And in no way should a business be paying out huge wages and bonuses to owners/employees.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: ytrewq on November 21, 2017, 08:19:45 AM
Professor H hit it pretty spot on.   Finish something right, then move onto the next.  Though with all the things they've got in the works, if they hit on one they could really make it big I guess.

That said, you may not see many around here but in other parts of the country the cars are very commonly seen.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: The Fuzz on November 21, 2017, 06:36:17 PM
Muskmelon / Tesla is heavily subsidized by the government (aka: you and me with no choice), much like the corn distillers, so, they both can act with big pockets and aren't doomed to fail.

Very poor business model IMO but, poor or not, it works for now.

I wonder why Trump hasn't pulled the government plug on him yet......probably knows Elon would kickhissass in a Twitter war.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on November 22, 2017, 09:04:46 PM
I wonder why Trump hasn't pulled the government plug on him yet......probably knows Elon would kickhissass in a Twitter war.

Simple answer.  Musk is Space X.  He's our shuttle provider.  Musk would never kickhisass on twitter.  Trump is king there.

I suspect that at some point in the future, Musk will turn into another DeLorean.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: eriemermaid on November 23, 2017, 08:54:04 AM
Say what you want, but I love the Tesla.  They are fun driving and riding in.  I will be in one going thru Monroe County in March.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on November 23, 2017, 10:15:43 AM
I like a smooth ride and lots of speed, but i also love the deep sound of the old powerhouse V8's
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on November 23, 2017, 05:02:43 PM
Musk and Trump have alot in common.

They both like firing people.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on November 23, 2017, 09:20:48 PM
Musk and Trump have alot in common.

They both like firing people.

Trump is a successful businessman unlike Musk who is a player in the shadows.  Tesla is nothing more than a huge ponzi scheme.

No way would I ever consider buying a 60 grand toaster on wheels.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Professor H on November 24, 2017, 07:04:36 PM
The Tesla vehicle market was targeting rich greenies -  with their pay up front scheme I don't know many who can afford.   It may be a nice car - but without the ability to see one and test drive/kick the tires - I don't see it making the mainstream purchaser.

The federal tax rebates were reaching their limits -  doubt they will be renewed. 

They can't make more than 3 cars (recently reported troubles) a day of their cheap model (30k base price) 
Not sure who's looking for the super fast version - or how much you have to give them for a few years for the option to purchase
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on November 24, 2017, 07:26:33 PM
I would think every tree hugging living breathing liberal would be buying one of these..
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on November 24, 2017, 08:35:47 PM
I would think every tree hugging living breathing liberal would be buying one of these..

Kind of a dilemma actually.  Tree Hugging Uber Liberals for the most part aren't overly flush.  People that buy into the Tesla thing are wannabe tree huggers that conveniently forget where the extension cord that is charging up there 'green' Tesla is getting it's juice from.

Musk is an opportunist and not much more.  If I wanted a 'green' car, I'd buy a Prius.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on November 24, 2017, 08:39:52 PM
The Tesla vehicle market was targeting rich greenies -  with their pay up front scheme I don't know many who can afford.   It may be a nice car - but without the ability to see one and test drive/kick the tires - I don't see it making the mainstream purchaser.

The federal tax rebates were reaching their limits -  doubt they will be renewed. 

They can't make more than 3 cars (recently reported troubles) a day of their cheap model (30k base price) 
Not sure who's looking for the super fast version - or how much you have to give them for a few years for the option to purchase

I've seen some of the 'quality' workmanship underneath of a Tesla and unless it's greatly improved, I'm not impressed, but then skilled workers are a premium in a state where techno geeks live.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Professor H on November 25, 2017, 09:21:57 AM
And my friend who owns one of the S models - claims it has regenerative brakes - and very few moving parts for service or maintenance... 

I just can't see 60K to save a little on maintenance - and you can buy a boatload of gas for 30K
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on November 25, 2017, 11:09:38 AM
And my friend who owns one of the S models - claims it has regenerative brakes - and very few moving parts for service or maintenance... 

I just can't see 60K to save a little on maintenance - and you can buy a boatload of gas for 30K

Probably does.  DC motors have that feature built in.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on November 25, 2017, 06:17:30 PM
And my friend who owns one of the S models - claims it has regenerative brakes - and very few moving parts for service or maintenance... 

I just can't see 60K to save a little on maintenance - and you can buy a boatload of gas for 30K

60K?  I don't think you can buy a Model S for 60K.

They start at 68K - and as you know everyone wants options.....
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on November 25, 2017, 09:32:41 PM
60K?  I don't think you can buy a Model S for 60K.

They start at 68K - and as you know everyone wants options.....

What options come with a toaster on wheels?
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on November 25, 2017, 10:43:51 PM
What options come with a toaster on wheels?

Oh.....  little things.....  like a bigger battery that does what they advertise.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Professor H on November 26, 2017, 10:57:55 AM
60K?  I don't think you can buy a Model S for 60K.

They start at 68K - and as you know everyone wants options.....
Probably got the Federal government subsidy of 7500...   

This guy is looking at the next gen with the self driving option (10K) 
like I said rich greenies...   

He did tell me I could get 4 sets of clubs in the vehicle :)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on November 26, 2017, 11:20:38 AM
Probably got the Federal government subsidy of 7500...   

This guy is looking at the next gen with the self driving option (10K) 
like I said rich greenies...   

He did tell me I could get 4 sets of clubs in the vehicle :)

LOL - built with Government money, and then the buy is subsidized with more Government dollars.

I hope he is willing to wait for the "new" car.

Elon isn't very good at building them.

Oh - and this "green" guy also puts rockets up.  That is a totally "green" endeavor.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on November 26, 2017, 11:25:33 AM
i think before it's over with Trump is going to put an end to this crook
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on November 26, 2017, 11:27:56 AM
i think before it's over with Trump is going to put an end to this crook

I hope so.

Elon is just another jet setting Liberal Hypocrite - only he survives on our tax dollars to fund his genius endeavors.

He doesn't make money on any of them - yet he has unlimited dollars to always continue doing it.  How does that work?

And the Liberal "Greenie" sheep stand in line to but up his subsidized crap.

Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on November 26, 2017, 01:58:30 PM
Once the government 'help out' goes away, so does Musk.

People don't understand (and maybe don't want to) is that incentive money is tax dollars, it ain't free.

I'd like to see that apply to ethanol producers as well.  Then, they'd go tits up too.  Neither business is sustainable without tax dollar infusions.

I will say that I give Musk credit for being an opportunist.  He saw the opportunity and is milking it for all it's worth (which is a gob).

Let the incentives lapse and that will take care of the whole business.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Professor H on December 01, 2017, 11:43:54 AM
I see he made his big battery for Australia - so he can collect $50million... from their government. 

Its not like they were putting batteries in cars they were making!
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 01, 2017, 04:57:17 PM
Like I said, an opportunist.... ;D
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on December 14, 2017, 11:14:31 AM
I see Pepsi pre-ordered 100 of their semi tractors!
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 14, 2017, 02:21:40 PM
I see Pepsi pre-ordered 100 of their semi tractors!

Must be a lot of money in carbonated beverages...

UPS went that route (electric delivery vans) didn't pan out too well.    Could you imagine an electric semi tractor up here with all the road salt and cacl.  All of that stuff with water makes an excellent conductor and it's corrosive too.

18 wheeled toaster...
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on December 14, 2017, 02:53:03 PM
Part of the FCI fleet operating out of Toledo converted to natural gas awhile ago.  Now all gone..
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on December 14, 2017, 05:35:24 PM
Must be a lot of money in carbonated beverages...

UPS went that route (electric delivery vans) didn't pan out too well.    Could you imagine an electric semi tractor up here with all the road salt and cacl.  All of that stuff with water makes an excellent conductor and it's corrosive too.

18 wheeled toaster...


I believe you're thinking back to when UPS tried some hybrid vehicles.  A big difference between hybrids and pure electric. 

There's been some major improvements in batteries just in the last year or two so don't be surprised to see UPS 'revisit' the hybrid concept at some point in the future.  Right now they seem pretty satisfied with their current fleet of electrics though!

Both of these articles are from just a month ago:


https://electrek.co/2017/11/10/ups-converting-battery-electric-delivery-trucks-new-york/ (https://electrek.co/2017/11/10/ups-converting-battery-electric-delivery-trucks-new-york/)

https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/10/ups-is-converting-diesel-trucks-to-electric-for-nyc-deliveries/ (https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/10/ups-is-converting-diesel-trucks-to-electric-for-nyc-deliveries/)

One more article:

http://mashable.com/2017/11/10/ups-coverting-diesel-trucks-to-electric/#u4AdUscjkmqL (http://mashable.com/2017/11/10/ups-coverting-diesel-trucks-to-electric/#u4AdUscjkmqL)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 15, 2017, 08:35:46 AM
Different yes.  Principle the same.  The electrical systems were the issues, not the mechanical systems.  Road salt, chemical de-icers and CaCl are hell on electrical systems and Tesla is no exception.  They all use the same Molex and physical connections and are all prone to water and corrosion shorting....

and Tesla's QC is questionable anyway.

Glad I'm not in the market for a remote polluting plug in electric vehicle of any kind.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 15, 2017, 08:40:07 AM
Don't know if they are satisified (UPS) with their fleet of hybrids.  I'd say it's more like saving face and 'appearing satisified' for the public more than anything else.  They (UPS Hybrids) seem to spend a lot of time in the shop (Freightiner), getting worked on.

In actuality, I don't care.  No hybrid crap in my driveway and will never be either.  If I want a toaster I'll get a 2 slice.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on December 15, 2017, 10:08:58 AM
Different yes.  Principle the same.  The electrical systems were the issues, not the mechanical systems.  Road salt, chemical de-icers and CaCl are hell on electrical systems and Tesla is no exception.  They all use the same Molex and physical connections and are all prone to water and corrosion shorting....

and Tesla's QC is questionable anyway.

Glad I'm not in the market for a remote polluting plug in electric vehicle of any kind.

Every vehicle you own or drive already has a fairly complicated electrical 'system'. 

With modern OEM battery technology I'm typically seeing up to 7 years of life on an original battery. 

The last starter I changed was at around the 120,000 mile (9 years hanging down in all the good stuff you're describing) mark. 

That same vehicle needed an alternator at only 100,000 miles.  It was probably just a $7.00 set of brushes but it made more sense just to swap it out with a rebuilt under the circumstances.

Neither the starter or the alternator on that vehicle were anything but 90's technology plain old Ford 'technology'!!!

Only time will tell I guess.

I see FoMoCo is working on an electric F150. 

A lot of people don't realize that the first automobiles were all electric powered.  An electric motor is very simple while a comparable powered gasoline engine is 'very' complicated.

Many electrics back in the 1800s and they were actually 'killed' by Henry Ford's ability to build a lower cost vehicle.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f4/df/16/f4df1633cf3cf471be23251f63535eb2.jpg)

Here's a quote from a great resource:

Quote
Many innovators take note of the electric car’s high demand, exploring ways to improve the technology. For example, Thomas Edison thought electric vehicles were the superior mode of transportation and worked to build a better battery.

Lots more on early electric vehicles at:

https://energy.gov/articles/history-electric-car
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: ytrewq on December 15, 2017, 06:59:02 PM
No one’s quality is braggable these days. 
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 15, 2017, 08:59:00 PM
No one’s quality is braggable these days.

Thats the truth.  Build 'em cheap, stack 'em deep and sell them high...

BRD.  Back in the day wintertime was basically sodium chloride on the roads...and hot sand.  That's changed with brine, liquid CaCl and other corrosive chemicals that attack electrical systems.  One thing I always do is, I get into all my electrical connectors and fill them with di-electric grease.  At leas that keeps out the water and chemicals and prevents corrosion at least for a while.

No, I'm not buying a toaster on wheels, you can if you want.  Not me.  Electric vehicles are a 'feel good' thing' for greenies.  Problem is, the power still comes from basically a pollution emitting powerplant.

I saw a solar powered RV ar a show last fall.  It was covered with thin film panels and only had a 50 mile range.  That don't work, at all.  Concept is good.  Technology isn't there yet and when it gets there, the price (like a Tesla) is prohibitive.

Rest assured, that alternator is crapping because of the de-icer it's inhaling as you drive down the road.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Professor H on December 18, 2017, 09:29:07 AM
Interesting expose on the Tesla  "branding" - where they really aren't breaking new ground in Manufacturing - but have people think they are - and they take shortcuts and quality issues are popping up.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/12/05/how-tesla-manufacturing-compares-to-other-auto-makers/#44109dfb3169 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/12/05/how-tesla-manufacturing-compares-to-other-auto-makers/#44109dfb3169)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Maverick on December 18, 2017, 12:48:16 PM
Thats the same business plan the DeLorean had
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 18, 2017, 04:34:04 PM
Thats the same business plan the DeLorean had

We all know what happened to DeLorean..


Back to the Future...lol
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 18, 2017, 04:36:24 PM
Forbes don't like my ad blocker so I cannot read it.  All I can say is pizz on Forbes.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on December 18, 2017, 05:45:35 PM
Interesting expose on the Tesla  "branding" - where they really aren't breaking new ground in Manufacturing - but have people think they are - and they take shortcuts and quality issues are popping up.

Not a good company, and not a good owner.

Elon likes firing people who tell him what he doesn't want to hear.

What is the outcome of this?

Inexperienced youngsters I know who were pretty unexceptional engineers have went to Tesla - cause California is cool and they don't want to buy houses anyway - and they land in rolls where they are the "expert" or Chief Engineer in their area - with only a year or two experience at our company.  They then call back to their "friends" and ask what they should do for xyz.  Sorry dude - you work for a competitor, we can talk about the Lions if you want - but I'm not going to give you technical answers anymore.  Now - once I retire in a few years you can pay me as a consultant - and I'll answer all the questions you want me to.

That is not a good formula for building a large number of high quality vehicles with a low number of recalls.

But - what do I know?
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 18, 2017, 10:40:03 PM
Like I said, won't be piloting a 50 grand toaster anytime soon.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: The Fuzz on December 19, 2017, 08:10:32 AM
I think anyone who frequents this site pretty well knows that.

It's a personal preference!  I doubt I will ever have one either but perhaps would if my driving habits worked with the lower end battery options.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 19, 2017, 09:13:27 AM
I think anyone who frequents this site pretty well knows that.

(really...lol)

It's a personal preference!  I doubt I will ever have one either but perhaps would if my driving habits worked with the lower end battery options.

I can well afford one if I wanted one and I'd pay cash but I don't want a toaster.  I'm a carbon footprint at the source person.

Just like I'd never buy a Tier 4 final diesel pickup truck.  Too much emissions garbage built with lowest bidder components.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: The Fuzz on December 19, 2017, 10:09:01 AM
No doubt, I'm kind of the same way.

The footprint is a totality obviously of which the sum of expended in vehicle manufacturing, power/recharge manufacturing, and end daily item use.

If you reduce any of that over fossil fuel, you have reduced the carbon footprint to a degree.
Title: and now UPS has their order in for 125 Tesla Trucks... largest pre-order yet!
Post by: BigRedDog on December 19, 2017, 02:14:01 PM
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ups-tesla-orders/ups-pre-orders-125-tesla-electric-semi-trucks-largest-order-yet-idUSKBN1ED1QM (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ups-tesla-orders/ups-pre-orders-125-tesla-electric-semi-trucks-largest-order-yet-idUSKBN1ED1QM)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on December 19, 2017, 07:17:12 PM
I have an electric car because it was cheap to buy, and it is cheap to operate compared to an equivalent gasoline car.  It is also kind of fun to drive.

I don't pretend that it is green as compared to alternatives.

Electric cars will take off when they make economic sense - or the Government forces it on people.

Needless to say I didn't spend the 60-80K to make the fashion statement that people with Tesla's want to make.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 19, 2017, 08:09:12 PM
You can book all the orders you want but if you cannot turn out the product or it's inferior, you loose.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 19, 2017, 08:13:07 PM
I have an electric car because it was cheap to buy, and it is cheap to operate compared to an equivalent gasoline car.  It is also kind of fun to drive.

I don't pretend that it is green as compared to alternatives.

Electric cars will take off when they make economic sense - or the Government forces it on people.

Needless to say I didn't spend the 60-80K to make the fashion statement that people with Tesla's want to make.

I didn't know you had a toaster..  What do you have?  A Leaf?

I was teasing my cousin, he has a Prius.  Told him he should open a portable welding business.  A couple Tweco quick disconnects on the battery terminals, some welding cable, stinger and ground clamp and he's be in business running low hydrogen DC reverse polarity SMAW.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on December 19, 2017, 08:17:23 PM
I didn't know you had a toaster..  What do you have?  A Leaf?

I was teasing my cousin, he has a Prius.  Told him he should open a portable welding business.  A couple Tweco quick disconnects on the battery terminals, some welding cable, stinger and ground clamp and he's be in business running low hydrogen DC reverse polarity SMAW.

I have a Leaf.

It makes it to work and back - charging on each side.

It's now 5 years old, and I have about 80 or 90 percent of the battery capacity left, but the 1st gen had a tiny battery by today's standards - but it gets what I need done done - only not in the winter if you want little things like HEAT.

Electricity at work is free.  I spend maybe 15 or 20 bucks a month for home charging.

Way less to operate than fueling a car.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: The Fuzz on December 19, 2017, 08:21:27 PM
There ya go MN, reduce that overall carbon footprint!   ;)

Curious.....how effective is the heater in the passenger compartment?
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 19, 2017, 08:23:37 PM
Do the old Volkswagen thing..  A can of sterno to keep you warm....  Or a Buddy heater on the passengers floorboard.  You have to improvise when being 'Green'.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 19, 2017, 08:24:54 PM
Problem is Fuzz, it don't reduce the carbon footprint, just moves it elsewhere....
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: The Fuzz on December 19, 2017, 08:26:55 PM
You may want to do some more detailed inputs and outputs of the equation before making that statement.  Yes, it moves some to one side of the equation or other, but the sum is less carbon foot print in terms of output.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 19, 2017, 08:33:51 PM
I believe you...sort of.

Don't really matter though.  Only Kalifornians embrace the plug in cars in any quantity and we all know what they are about.

I'm happy with my suck-squeeze-bang-blow internal combustion engine, thank you.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: The Fuzz on December 19, 2017, 08:56:00 PM
Yea, they are not my gig either, I still like the sound of that combustion engine.  But I will tell you what, I test drove a Model S development vehicle well before their release to mass production........that torque and responsiveness damn near gave me an erection!
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on December 19, 2017, 10:22:27 PM
I like the sound of the old muscle cars. I have a pretty new veh now with a 4cyl turbo and it doesn't make any noise..
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on December 20, 2017, 09:12:45 AM
When I went for my walk yesterday afternoon I happened to catch our neighbor outside...   the one that drives UPS semi trucks.  Asked him what he thought of the prospect of electric trucks and he figures that at least most of the original ones will stay right there in Nevada and California. 

Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on December 20, 2017, 09:15:52 AM
Do the old Volkswagen thing..  A can of sterno to keep you warm....  Or a Buddy heater on the passengers floorboard.  You have to improvise when being 'Green'.

VW and Corvair both used a gasoline fired heater.  Seems like at least the VW was a Bosch built heater. 
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 20, 2017, 09:51:05 AM
Yea, they are not my gig either, I still like the sound of that combustion engine.  But I will tell you what, I test drove a Model S development vehicle well before their release to mass production........that torque and responsiveness damn near gave me an erection!

The physics of an electric motor is...  They produce maximum torque at stall (0 rpm) and the faster the armature spins, the less torque they develop.  Why a diesel-electric locomotive make an excellent starting horse but a steam locomotive will beat any diesel electric for top speed.  Steam engines torque rise increases with rpm (so long as the boiler can supply enough steam that is.

So..  the seat of the pants feeling with an electric car will always be greater than an internal combustion engine.  IC engines build torque (torque rise) with rpm.  An electric motor don't.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on December 20, 2017, 09:51:45 AM
I like the sound of the old muscle cars. I have a pretty new veh now with a 4cyl turbo and it doesn't make any noise..


There are hundreds if not thousands of YouTube videos on muscle car roar!!!

Muscle car roar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNkiOvEGBus#)

Listen real close as he's cranking the engine to start it...   the Vbelt squeals a tad just as it starts.  Part of regular maintenance was tightening the belt or out and out replacing it.  I kept a set of used ones in the trunk 'just in case'.

Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 20, 2017, 09:53:27 AM
When I went for my walk yesterday afternoon I happened to catch our neighbor outside...   the one that drives UPS semi trucks.  Asked him what he thought of the prospect of electric trucks and he figures that at least most of the original ones will stay right there in Nevada and California.

They have a few package trucks in Maumee.  I know, they visit my old employer (Freightliner of Toledo) on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 20, 2017, 09:55:55 AM
VW and Corvair both used a gasoline fired heater.  Seems like at least the VW was a Bosch built heater.

VW used Bosch and I think Corvair used them as well but they could have been Stewart-Warner built under Bosch license..  I had a Veedub van with a Bosch unit.  That sucker would roast you out.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on December 20, 2017, 10:00:20 AM
I had a 65 chevy with a 396 425HP.  It sounded a little better than that.  I noticed the guy pumping the gas.  That was a big no no.  It would flood easily.  In cold weather it was once to the floor to set the choke and that was it.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: The Fuzz on December 20, 2017, 02:41:19 PM
The physics of an electric motor is...  They produce maximum torque at stall (0 rpm) and the faster the armature spins, the less torque they develop.  Why a diesel-electric locomotive make an excellent starting horse but a steam locomotive will beat any diesel electric for top speed.  Steam engines torque rise increases with rpm (so long as the boiler can supply enough steam that is.

So..  the seat of the pants feeling with an electric car will always be greater than an internal combustion engine.  IC engines build torque (torque rise) with rpm.  An electric motor don't.

Totally understood the physics of it.......college engineering school paid off after all.  I was surprised at the physical magnitude of the physics was like on a human body.  Cool stuff.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on December 20, 2017, 06:09:40 PM
There ya go MN, reduce that overall carbon footprint!   ;)

Curious.....how effective is the heater in the passenger compartment?

Very effective. 

My generation didn't have a heat pump for heat - it has electric heat with toaster coils.

It is great - heat just about immediately when you ask for it.

Only problem - you can have range, or you can have heat, but you can't have both.  Hence - it is sitting in the corner of the garage.  I lose just enough distance using the heater that I don't feel comfortable it would make it on the cold days.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on December 20, 2017, 06:13:36 PM
Problem is Fuzz, it don't reduce the carbon footprint, just moves it elsewhere....

The efficiency of the Monroe Coal Power Plant is far above that of even the best internal combustion engine.

Even with transmission and storage loses....  I think electric wins for lowest carbon footprint.

Now - if you want to talk about TOTAL footprint with the manufacturing?  Maybe not....
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 20, 2017, 09:27:34 PM
The efficiency of the Monroe Coal Power Plant is far above that of even the best internal combustion engine.

Even with transmission and storage loses....  I think electric wins for lowest carbon footprint.

Now - if you want to talk about TOTAL footprint with the manufacturing?  Maybe not....

Coal is bad, the 'greenies' want coal gone, replaced with wind and solar.  Nuke is out too.  Could you imagine wind turbines 6 deep from Zug Island to the Ohio line making sometimes wind power for us..  I cannot.  Wind turbines only make power when the wind blows and solar only when the sun shines...

I do my part to perpetuate the carbon footprint.  I'm all about it.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on December 20, 2017, 10:13:03 PM
If there's no wind you could just plug the wind turbine in to generate electricity couldn't you..
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 21, 2017, 10:55:54 AM
If there's no wind you could just plug the wind turbine in to generate electricity couldn't you..

What the wind turbine folks need to do is build a wind farm around the State Capitol.  Plenty of 'wind' up there to spin those wind turbines 24/7....  just say'in... ;D
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on December 27, 2017, 09:46:17 AM
More on the planning for the Tesla pickup!

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2017/12/27/tesla-pickup/108938380/ (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2017/12/27/tesla-pickup/108938380/)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on December 27, 2017, 10:11:04 AM
What the wind turbine folks need to do is build a wind farm around the State Capitol.  Plenty of 'wind' up there to spin those wind turbines 24/7....  just say'in... ;D

Hoping the petition started by Brian Calley gets enough signatures to get on the ballot to put Mich legislature to part time.  I received a petition to collect signatures and have it filled and ready to return.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 27, 2017, 10:19:47 AM
Hoping the petition started by Brian Calley gets enough signatures to get on the ballot to put Mich legislature to part time.  I received a petition to collect signatures and have it filled and ready to return.

So do I.  I found it interesting the my liberal family members (on CL's) side are against a part time legislature claiming it will never pass a ballot inititative.  I reminded them that they said Trump would never get elected either...  Bunch of liberal idiots.

Bunch of idiots (about Trump and the ballot inititative).  I want them to get the 300,000 dignatures (registered voters only) so Michigan voters can vote on what I see is a good plan to get the legislation in line with the majority of the rest of the country.

We need the same thing with insurance reform.  Make it a ballot inititative and get it out of the legislature's hands.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 27, 2017, 10:22:26 AM
My only issue is, it was initiated by Calley, not a grass roots organization and having said that I wonder what Calley's motivation is.  I have to say, given the choices for governor, I will vote for Calley anyway.  Certainly not Schutte nor Gretchen or the towel head from Dearborn.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on December 27, 2017, 10:25:18 AM
Hoping the petition started by Brian Calley gets enough signatures to get on the ballot to put Mich legislature to part time.  I received a petition to collect signatures and have it filled and ready to return.

On Labor Day when I finished the Bridge walk there were several tents set up in the 'cool down' area where they were doing all sorts of petitions.  I signed one there from one of the grass roots organizations and then never heard anything more about it.  Must not have gotten enough signatures :-\ :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 27, 2017, 10:26:16 AM
More on the planning for the Tesla pickup!

[url]http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2017/12/27/tesla-pickup/108938380/[/url] ([url]http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2017/12/27/tesla-pickup/108938380/[/url])


Bet those Tesla's (and the rest of the toasters) don't do well in this cold snap....  Batteries don't perform well in very cold temperatures.

My BIL saw a Tesla SUV the other day.  I looked up the price on the Tesla site.  How about $128,800.00. OTD.

I don't think so.  I'm not that flush.  Are you?
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 27, 2017, 10:36:41 AM
On Labor Day when I finished the Bridge walk there were several tents set up in the 'cool down' area where they were doing all sorts of petitions.  I signed one there from one of the grass roots organizations and then never heard anything more about it.  Must not have gotten enough signatures :-\ :-\ :-\

There are very specific guidelines set by the Board of Canvassers concerning the signing of any petition and the validation of signatures...
1.  The signer must be a registered voter
2.  The Signature must be in black or blue ink, not pencil and must include the residence address
3.  The signer has to state in what county they live in and can only sign a petition for that residence county.  IOW, if you sign a petition and you live in Monroe County and someone signs the same petition that resides in Lenawee County, ALL THE SIGNATURES ON THAT PETITION ARE NULL AND VOID.
4.  The petitioner must completely fill out the conformation in the lower right hand corner or the petition is null and void...

If it's not correct, it don't count and people are generally poor at following instructions anyway.

The one you signed, BRD, probably got round filed...
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on December 27, 2017, 10:37:35 AM
Bet those Tesla's (and the rest of the toasters) don't do well in this cold snap....  Batteries don't perform well in very cold temperatures.

My BIL saw a Tesla SUV the other day.  I looked up the price on the Tesla site.  How about $128,800.00. OTD.

I don't think so.  I'm not that flush.  Are you?

Can it tow an 8000 pound trailer?
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on December 27, 2017, 10:43:57 AM
There are very specific guidelines set by the Board of Canvassers concerning the signing of any petition and the validation of signatures...
1.  The signer must be a registered voter
2.  The Signature must be in black or blue ink, not pencil and must include the residence address
3.  The signer has to state in what county they live in and can only sign a petition for that residence county.  IOW, if you sign a petition and you live in Monroe County and someone signs the same petition that resides in Lenawee County, ALL THE SIGNATURES ON THAT PETITION ARE NULL AND VOID.
4.  The petitioner must completely fill out the conformation in the lower right hand corner or the petition is null and void...

If it's not correct, it don't count and people are generally poor at following instructions anyway.

The one you signed, BRD, probably got round filed...

No idea...   It didn't make it to the ballot is all I know at this point.

When I got to the front of the line (not real long but it was steady) they asked what County I lived in and sent me to the proper person.  A cute young gal (student from U of M).  She asked me which municipality and I told her LaSalle Township and that she probably wouldn't have any others from LaSalle.  She found the right file folder and I was actually the 4th or 5th signer.  I recognized the other names but hadn't seen any of them on the bridge.

I don't remember what color ink they were using though!!!
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on December 27, 2017, 10:44:32 AM
There are very specific guidelines set by the Board of Canvassers concerning the signing of any petition and the validation of signatures...
1.  The signer must be a registered voter
2.  The Signature must be in black or blue ink, not pencil and must include the residence address
3.  The signer has to state in what county they live in and can only sign a petition for that residence county.  IOW, if you sign a petition and you live in Monroe County and someone signs the same petition that resides in Lenawee County, ALL THE SIGNATURES ON THAT PETITION ARE NULL AND VOID.
4.  The petitioner must completely fill out the conformation in the lower right hand corner or the petition is null and void...

Nailed it...Everyone that signed mine is valid and lives in Bedford Twsp..

If it's not correct, it don't count and people are generally poor at following instructions anyway.

The one you signed, BRD, probably got round filed...
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 27, 2017, 11:53:23 AM
Can it tow an 8000 pound trailer?

Nor sure.  Probably can for a little ways at least until the battery gets too low...  or something structural fails.  I've heard their assembly and welding isn't all that great.

For a hundred grand you can buy a full loaded with every option, F350 Ford King Ranch turbo diesel 4x4 that will easily handle the trailer.  Still too much money but more practical in my view.

With the influx of electrics by the established players, Ford, GM, BMW, Audi, Porsche and everyone else plus hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, the playing field is going to get real crowded, real fast and I don't see Tesla surviving.  The have a captive (so to speak) market right now but that is about to change in the coming year.  Musk needs to divest himself of Tesla and concentrate on Space-X, until at least Trump ramps up the space program and NASA starts launching their own vehicles again and eliminates Space-X.

IMO, Musk is an opportunist but lacks foresight.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on December 27, 2017, 12:29:48 PM
Musk is an expert at taking tax dollars for his own benefit.

I hope Trump stops crony capitalism, but we shall see.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on December 27, 2017, 05:23:19 PM
Musk is an expert at taking tax dollars for his own benefit.

I hope Trump stops crony capitalism, but we shall see.

Musk is going to hang himself with his own device..  The Tesla, once everyone gets on board, he's done.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on December 27, 2017, 05:33:11 PM
Musk is going to hang himself with his own device..  The Tesla, once everyone gets on board, he's done.

He hit the niche that others were not.

While some car companies were concentrating on entry level, low cost, old Elon went after the Luxury People who can spend stupid money on inferior products.  Basically - he went after the Apple Demographic.

I am pretty sure that BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and others will soon offer better products that you don't have to wait two years for.

Eventually most i Phone users figure out that the Samsung is better, and they don't limit what you can download.  It will happen to old Elon too.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on February 07, 2018, 07:18:14 PM
They only lost 675 million last quarter.

What does that work out to per vehicle built?

 :o

Yep - Elon is going to rule the car business.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2018/02/07/tesla-release-earnings-scrutiny-grows/110194480/ (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2018/02/07/tesla-release-earnings-scrutiny-grows/110194480/)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: The Fuzz on February 10, 2018, 02:18:09 PM
Naw....that's not the goal he is after!  Perhaps the richest automaker courtesy of you , me and many others financed.   ;)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on February 10, 2018, 02:24:46 PM
Naw....that's not the goal he is after!  Perhaps the richest automaker courtesy of you , me and many others financed.   ;)

Elon doesn't do anything without Taxpayer dollars.

I was hoping Trump would put an end to it.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: The Fuzz on February 10, 2018, 03:43:45 PM
Don't worry, he will since one of his campaign promises was to reduce the size of government and wasteful expenditures.  My guess is that he will leave SpaceX alone since the government has taken a back seat to commercial launching of payloads.  Saves NASA expenditures.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Professor H on February 12, 2018, 09:39:12 AM
Tesla can't deliver to their customers... but had an extra car to blast off into space...   

wonder if that was a write off
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on February 12, 2018, 10:42:56 AM
Just opened a 'Tesla Supercharging Station' on Alexis in the parking lot behind Mc Dee's.   If you own a Tesla (other than the base model) and use a Tesla charging station, it costs you nothing for the life of the vehicle, it's included in the price.

My Cousin in law in Illinois bought a new Tesla SUV and I have to admit it's a sharp car.  Cannot afford one but nice to look at anyway.  Think they are way north of 1000 grand.

I was teasing him about his 'toaster on wheels'...... ;D
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: ytrewq on February 12, 2018, 11:44:17 AM
They have some kind of deal with Meijer.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on February 12, 2018, 03:27:14 PM
Tesla can't deliver to their customers... but had an extra car to blast off into space...   

wonder if that was a write off

You know it was - and no doubt the US Taxpayers paid for both the car and the Rocket that launched it into space.

Maybe he will actually start selling Roadsters someday.....?
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on February 13, 2018, 08:38:27 AM
They have some kind of deal with Meijer.


The last couple I've encountered have both been at Meijer.  There are two others in the Maumee - Perrysburg area of Toledo and one of them is at a Kroger store. 

Here's an interesting article from a couple of years ago about a guy in Toledo that bought 23 of them!!!

http://www.toledoblade.com/Automotive/2017/03/28/Toledo-entrepreneur-Stanley-Chlebowski-takes-delivery-of-21-Tesla-sedans.html (http://www.toledoblade.com/Automotive/2017/03/28/Toledo-entrepreneur-Stanley-Chlebowski-takes-delivery-of-21-Tesla-sedans.html)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on February 13, 2018, 10:01:32 AM
My cousin-in-law told me that the 'Supercharger' stations charge with 480 volts, the home chargers are 220 so the Supercharger stations take about 15 minutes whereas the home chargers take about an hour.  He's got one in his garage that he plugs his into. 

I asked him about 'unauthorized charging' at the charge stations and he told me the chargers can sense if a Resla is plugged in or not, plus the plug is special.

Kind of interesting but not for me.  One, I cannot afford one and two, the range is limited.  His is about 240 miles.  It's eerie to ride in a noiseless car and the acceleration is nothing short of amazing.  It's a head ripper.  I like the gull wing doors, reminds me of a Mercedes Benz roadster and a Deloran at the same time.

It's a rich man's toy.  His is a company bought vehicle and he owns the company.

At the price point, don't ever see them becoming mainstream.  The average 'Joe' cannot afford one. 

The internal combustion engine will be around for the foreseeable future in my opinion.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on February 13, 2018, 07:41:18 PM
Some info on Tesla:

https://electrek.co/2018/02/13/spacex-launch-prototype-internet-satellite-tesla-ground-station/
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on February 20, 2018, 07:49:59 PM
If you run out of other things to do you can track the car through space!

http://www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2018/02/website_tracks_tesla_through_s.html#incart_river_home (http://www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2018/02/website_tracks_tesla_through_s.html#incart_river_home)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on February 21, 2018, 07:49:56 AM
I'd have to be extremely bored to do that. ;D  Not at that point yet....
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on February 21, 2018, 08:27:56 AM
I'd have to be extremely bored to do that. ;D  Not at that point yet....

it was interesting to see the one time.  Watching the 'distance from earth' number increasing at something like 12 miles a second was neat.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on February 21, 2018, 06:50:28 PM
It's not coming back?  Good.  Too bad Elon wasn't in the drivers seat...
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on February 21, 2018, 07:38:56 PM
It's not coming back? Good.  Too bad Elon wasn't in the drivers seat...

Yes, it might be coming back but now while we have to think about it.  There's about an 8-10% that the orbit it's in 'may' bring it back close to earth in several hundred to several thousand years. 

That's what I was actually looking for when I found the article on the website that's tracking it. 

Right now I'm more concerned one of these cars flying by here in the dark are going to hit one of these rapidly growing potholes and take out my mailbox!!!



Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on February 21, 2018, 07:52:32 PM
Or become a monument to stupidity in your front yard....
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Professor H on March 08, 2018, 11:22:06 AM
2.6 billion pay to the CEO...   

They supposedly are worth more than Ford and GM yet haven't made a profit ever!   Its stupid people throwing money at technology that when perfected will be used by Ford and GM  :)


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-07/musk-s-2-6-billion-award-cheered-on-by-big-tesla-shareholders (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-07/musk-s-2-6-billion-award-cheered-on-by-big-tesla-shareholders)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 08, 2018, 05:24:29 PM
I read that as well.  I wanted to puke.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on March 08, 2018, 05:35:49 PM
2.6 billion pay to the CEO...   

They supposedly are worth more than Ford and GM yet haven't made a profit ever!   Its stupid people throwing money at technology that when perfected will be used by Ford and GM  :)


Don't forget VW.  They just announced an SUV EV - and I bet you they can build all they need to.

]http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2017/11/vw-confirms-2020-u-s-launch-of-all-electric-suv/[url] (http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2017/11/vw-confirms-2020-u-s-launch-of-all-electric-suv/[url)[/url]

Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 08, 2018, 06:36:05 PM
GoodYear (and I'd guess other tire companies) is building special tires for the electric vehicles!

https://electrek.co/2018/03/08/goodyear-tire-electric-cars-reduce-wear-instant-torque/
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 14, 2018, 10:19:31 AM
A Tesla 3 owner from Grand Rapids seems happy with is 2nd Tesla:

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2018/03/tesla_3_owner_is_sold_despite.html (http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2018/03/tesla_3_owner_is_sold_despite.html)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 15, 2018, 05:57:07 AM
GoodYear (and I'd guess other tire companies) is building special tires for the electric vehicles!

https://electrek.co/2018/03/08/goodyear-tire-electric-cars-reduce-wear-instant-torque/

Nice aspect ratio.  That baloney is a pothole blowout waiting to happen.  Lots of tires today with low aspect ratios are blowout babies on Michigan roads.  Blowout babies and rim benders...

I think you should get a 4 wheel toaster, you seem to have a fondness for them...
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 15, 2018, 05:59:13 AM
A Tesla 3 owner from Grand Rapids seems happy with is 2nd Tesla:

[url]http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2018/03/tesla_3_owner_is_sold_despite.html[/url] ([url]http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2018/03/tesla_3_owner_is_sold_despite.html[/url])


If it looks like a liberal, smells like a liberal (expensive after shave) and drives a Tesla toaster...  Then it must be a snowflake liberal  (Grand Rapids is loaded with them).  Glad I don't live there.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 15, 2018, 07:44:25 AM
Nice aspect ratio.  That baloney is a pothole blowout waiting to happen.  Lots of tires today with low aspect ratios are blowout babies on Michigan roads.  Blowout babies and rim benders...

I think you should get a 4 wheel toaster, you seem to have a fondness for them...

I'm working on building one. 

Putting an electric motor on one of my antique (cast iron) Cub Cadet tractors.  It will be powered by 100% solar charged batteries. 

If I'm still driving when Ford is building an electric then I'll worry about buying one then.

Someone started the thread (wasn't me...   thought it was you) so I share articles when I find them.

If you're not interested then don't read them...    it's very, very S I M P L E ! ! !
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 15, 2018, 11:02:20 AM
My, aren't we crabby today....  Ford is going to come out with an electric vehicle shortly btw.

You ought to look around for an old Cub Cadet Electrax electric lawn tractor, they are out there.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 15, 2018, 02:30:18 PM
My, aren't we crabby today.... Ford is going to come out with an electric vehicle shortly btw.

You ought to look around for an old Cub Cadet Electrax electric lawn tractor, they are out there.


I've followed Ford's EV progress pretty close for at least 3 years.

Here's a thread I started in 2015 but no one wanted to talk about it back then.

http://monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=30524.msg699709#msg699709 (http://monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=30524.msg699709#msg699709)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 15, 2018, 03:03:23 PM
My, aren't we crabby today....  Ford is going to come out with an electric vehicle shortly btw.

You ought to look around for an old Cub Cadet Electrax electric lawn tractor, they are out there.


I'm familiar with the Cub Cadet 95 all electric but it is a glorified medium duty mower and far, far from a tractor.

http://www.tractordata.com/lawn-tractors/002/4/6/2463-cub-cadet-95.html (http://www.tractordata.com/lawn-tractors/002/4/6/2463-cub-cadet-95.html)


I'm not aware of any major production all electric tractors from CC.  If you have a link to one please post it.

I know JD had a couple but for whatever reason they never caught on.

Rather than an Electrax are you maybe thinking of the ElecTrak?

The early ones were painted yellow but built by GE, not CC.  When GE decided to drop them then Wheel Horse and Avco held on a little longer. 

(https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Vehicles/ElecTrak/E-12M%20001_small.jpg)

(https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Vehicles/ElecTrak/E-12M%20006_small.jpg)

(https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Vehicles/ElecTrak/E-10%20032_small.jpg)

More info:
Note:  credit for above photos to:
https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Vehicles/ElecTrak/ElecTrak.htm (https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Vehicles/ElecTrak/ElecTrak.htm)

http://www.edisontechcenter.org/ElecTrak.html (http://www.edisontechcenter.org/ElecTrak.html)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elec-Trak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elec-Trak)


I'd buy one if I could find the right one at a reasonable price.  They have their own 'cult' following and can very pricey because of how few were produced.

The nice thing about the old Cub Cadets is while one guy is asking an arm and 2 legs for a starter generator someone else is cleaning out Grandpa's barn and hauling all sorts of good stuff to the salvage yard,  Still plenty of 'buy low sell high' opportunities out there.

I also have a Gilson I bought when we first moved here.  A 16hp Briggs cast iron single that will idle all afternoon at 350-400 rpm. 

That one has a Peerless 4 speed transaxle that looks like the same one they were using in some of the ElecTrak tractors. 

I have a Cub Cadet Corporation (after IH sold out but before MTD got involved) 'lawn' (not garden) tractor with the same Peerless transaxle.

Part of the problem with when the ElecTraks were being developed is the technology was still lagging.

Modern batteries are 'light years' (pun intended) ahead of back then.  Motors are 1/3 to 1/2 the physical size and deliver more torque.  Speed controllers back then were essentially a bunch of series-parallel solenoid devices and today they're completely solid state. 

The other side is the chargers today are much more sophisticated and if you want to stay carbon footprint free you just set up a nice solar array! 
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 16, 2018, 08:09:23 AM
That's it BRD.  I'm not at all into solar anything.  Sun don't shine that much here but I'm considering a couple panels for my RV roof.  Maybe 2 100 watt Grape Solar panels with a controller to keep my house batteries charged on the road.  I carry a small inverter generator anyway.

You need to take a hard look at the new storage batteries, Lithium Iron Phosphate for a mower.  With ordinary flooded cell / AGM or Deep cycle batteries, you can only discharge them to 50% capacity or you severely shorten their lifespan.  The Li batteries can be discharges to almost nothing without any decrease in capacity plus being solid state you can mount them in any position, even inverted.

I looked at a pair of Group 24's for my RV but the cost is prohibitive, around 800 bucks a battery.  I can buy a lot of conventional batteries for 1600 clams.  You are flush, I'm retired.....lol
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 16, 2018, 09:40:05 AM
That's it BRD.  I'm not at all into solar anything.  Sun don't shine that much here but I'm considering a couple panels for my RV roof.  Maybe 2 100 watt Grape Solar panels with a controller to keep my house batteries charged on the road.  I carry a small inverter generator anyway.

You need to take a hard look at the new storage batteries, Lithium Iron Phosphate for a mower.  With ordinary flooded cell / AGM or Deep cycle batteries, you can only discharge them to 50% capacity or you severely shorten their lifespan.  The Li batteries can be discharges to almost nothing without any decrease in capacity plus being solid state you can mount them in any position, even inverted.

I looked at a pair of Group 24's for my RV but the cost is prohibitive, around 800 bucks a battery.  I can buy a lot of conventional batteries for 1600 clams.  You are flush, I'm retired.....lol

Once you get some panels and experiment with them you'll wonder why you didn't do it years ago.  The latest ones do a pretty good job of putting out 'some' power even under cloud cover.  I was watching a youtube last week where the guy parked at night under the parking lot lights at a Wally World and was still able to be charging his batteries just from the parking lot lights.  No, it wasn't a full charge but it was moving the right direction. 

My son has kept me fairly well up to date on battery technology.  The drone industry has been driving much of the experimentation and improvement the last several years. 

He has batteries that are one or two cubic inches that if you calculated out the cost to a pair of 24s would go off the end of the scale.

Those guys really get into the cycles and half cycles when it comes to recharging.

Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Professor H on March 29, 2018, 08:52:08 AM
http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/28/news/companies/tesla-model-3-cash-crunch/index.html (http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/28/news/companies/tesla-model-3-cash-crunch/index.html)

Just saw this article -  on the promises still not being met for production and delivery and now payment of suppliers... 
Add to that the Billion dollars bond payment due this year and their borrowing rating at less than junk bond - it's not looking good for the viability without a partnership or takeover by some other company.

Unless they turn this around - they will be filing for "protection"...  as once you stop paying suppliers you are toast.

---------------------------------
Moody's downgraded its debt deeper into junk bond status on Tuesday and warned more downgrades could be coming. Standard & Poor's also has warned of the possibility of a downgrade.

Bloomberg has been tracking production by continuously monitoring the issuance of vehicle identification numbers issued by the NTSB. It estimates that production stands at 1,026 a week, a big jump from the fourth quarter but less than half the 2,500 a week target that Tesla has set for the end of the third quarter, which concludes Saturday.


------
Tesla reported it owed $2.4 billion in accounts payable at the end of last year. That's not a huge number as long suppliers continue to bill for the parts and raw materials.

But the credit agency downgrade could prompt suppliers to start demanding cash at the time of delivery, according to John Thompson, CEO of hedge fund Vilas Capital Management, which has its largest position shorting Tesla shares, betting big that the stock will fall sharply in value.

"Why did Toys 'R' Us go bankrupt? Its suppliers cut it off. You can have altruistic equity holders, you can have altruistic bond holders, altruistic customers. But suppliers are cold and calculating from my experience," he said.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Professor H on March 29, 2018, 08:58:26 AM
RE the electric lawn mowers -
we tried the early versions of the walk behind - when my parents had a small yard.   Never seemed to have that power.    Now the new battery powered trimmers, edgers, and such seem to have overcome the power and time limits for even a yard my side -

the idea of using solar for a home is intriguing - and I've not done enough research to see how long they last now - and the years of payback.   
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 29, 2018, 09:45:00 AM
RE the electric lawn mowers -
we tried the early versions of the walk behind - when my parents had a small yard.   Never seemed to have that power.    Now the new battery powered trimmers, edgers, and such seem to have overcome the power and time limits for even a yard my side -

the idea of using solar for a home is intriguing - and I've not done enough research to see how long they last now - and the years of payback.   


And now there are even battery powered Zambonis!

http://upnorthlive.com/news/local/northern-michigan-ice-rink-gets-eco-friendly-zamboni (http://upnorthlive.com/news/local/northern-michigan-ice-rink-gets-eco-friendly-zamboni)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 29, 2018, 10:32:22 AM
Remember my mom has a Sunbeam corded lawnmower when I was younger.  Never had much luck mowing with it, was always running over and slicing the cord..... ;D
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 29, 2018, 10:34:43 AM
Better get them panels pronto.  I bet the price increases quite a bit in the near future.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 29, 2018, 11:44:51 AM
RE the electric lawn mowers -
we tried the early versions of the walk behind - when my parents had a small yard.   Never seemed to have that power.    Now the new battery powered trimmers, edgers, and such seem to have overcome the power and time limits for even a yard my side -

the idea of using solar for a home is intriguing - and I've not done enough research to see how long they last now - and the years of payback.   

Remember my mom has a Sunbeam corded lawnmower when I was younger.  Never had much luck mowing with it, was always running over and slicing the cord..... ;D

I've never used one.  I've seen various brands in homes and most were in areas with relatively small lawns.  I can see where running over the cord would be a real possibility. 

I remember buying my first Makita cordless drill.  It used 6V batteries.  In a few years Makita was up to 12 volts and I bought one of those then.  I still have them both but all the batteries are kaput.  Now my cordless drill is a Bosch Industrial at 18 volts.  These batteries will last more than 10 times what my original Makita would and I know the technology has progressed even more than my Bosch. 

I've always had a heavy duty Stihl brush cutter but I could put on a string trimmer head and use it for trimming.  I've had a couple of electric corded string trimmers to use closer to the house and electric outlets. 

My mother in law had several battery operated 'lawn' tools in Florida but again a very small lot.  They evolved over the years (like my drills) and the latest ones weren't too bad for trimming a yard.  They wouldn't hold up out in the brush or woods though. 

In my opinion it's still better to 'over buy' on the tool and let it loaf on the smaller jobs and then be able to do the big jobs when needed.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on March 29, 2018, 03:16:54 PM
Every time i need a drill the batteries are dead and i needed the drill now.  So I dig out my 35 year old Sears electric drill and plug it in
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 29, 2018, 03:49:17 PM
I used to buy those uber buck DeWalt and Makita cordless ones but now I buy the Harbor Freight ones.  Just as good, 1/2 the price (or more with a 20% off coupon).  I like the guarantee too.  90 days no matter what so you beat the heck out of it for 89 days and it if pukes, you take it back and get a new one......

My favorite HF item is their Predator engines.  As my small gas engines peter out, they get replaced with Predator engines.  Pressure washer was Honda, now Pred (had carb issues), Tiller, was Tecumseh, now Pred (threw a rod).  Zero turn (kawasaki), getting a bit of a rod knock, probably puke this summer...  gets a Pred.

Pred motors are all Lifan and Lifan is S. Korea's biggest and oldest small engine builder.  In fact, they built Honda's at one time.

Some stuff at HF is junk, I admit, but not all.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 29, 2018, 05:33:35 PM
Here's a ton of photos on the GE Elek-Trak and some of the other related electric lawn equipment.  I even saw an Ariens 48 volt snow blower I've never seen before.

http://www.ebay.com/cln/lawnmower-guy/ge-elec-trak-electric-garden-tractors/57578396017 (http://www.ebay.com/cln/lawnmower-guy/ge-elec-trak-electric-garden-tractors/57578396017)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on March 29, 2018, 05:50:20 PM
Now that would take one heck of a battery to move some of he heavy wet snow we get once in a while?
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 29, 2018, 06:27:45 PM
Now that would take one heck of a battery to move some of he heavy wet snow we get once in a while?

The one down side to battery powered equipment is the cold doesn't allow for maximum performance. 

If you had it in a heated garage or put the batter charger to it just before you used it then it might work ok. 

The newer and more sophisticated batteries are less susceptible to low temperatures and they're getting better all the time. 

Usually not too hard to retrofit because the newer batteries are not only better but also smaller. 
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on March 29, 2018, 07:23:33 PM
Well I'm kind of a sissy. I have a heated garage,,
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 30, 2018, 08:57:33 AM
Well I'm kind of a sissy. I have a heated garage,,

Then that snowblower would be perfect for you! 

I don't mind hearing most lawn equipment engine running when my neighbors up here are out working.  I'm usually up and going before they are anyway.  When we're in Florida it's a different scenario though.  We tend to try to 'sleep in' plus all the lots are so small down there that someone is mowing or trimming or something every morning.  The lawn service people like to start early while it's still 'cool' out and be done by the time the showers arrive late in the afternoon.  Again, down there (or anywhere that neighbors are ultra close) it would be nice if everyone had electric equipment. 
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Professor H on March 31, 2018, 08:30:38 AM
I see another "self driving" car crashed killing the occupant...     going to take light years of experience before I would ever consider that tech - 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-says-autopilot-was-engaged-in-fatal-crash-under-investigation-in-california-1522462409 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-says-autopilot-was-engaged-in-fatal-crash-under-investigation-in-california-1522462409)
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 31, 2018, 08:47:53 AM
Way too many variables on the street to allow any vehicle to be self driving.  Until dedicated self driving lanes are established, no way...
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: The Fuzz on March 31, 2018, 09:09:12 AM
Too many variables to allow safe traditional driving out there.  It all equals out....self driving or not.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 31, 2018, 09:38:33 AM
I see another "self driving" car crashed killing the occupant...     going to take light years of experience before I would ever consider that tech - 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-says-autopilot-was-engaged-in-fatal-crash-under-investigation-in-california-1522462409 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-says-autopilot-was-engaged-in-fatal-crash-under-investigation-in-california-1522462409)

The 'driver' had actually received multiple alerts just prior to the crash that he needed to take physical control of the vehicle but apparently never touched the steering wheel prior to the crash.

Perhaps the driver experienced some type of medical emergency.

This literally may have happened in any vehicle with 'cruise control'... 

at some point the driver has to take responsibility for the 'overall' control of the vehicle. 

https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-data/ (https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-data/)

Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 31, 2018, 09:57:14 AM
CL's cousin Jeff's wife has that exact same Tesla X, right down to the color.  I've ridden it, it's nice (better be for 130,000+ car).  Having said that, I'd never own one.  Couple reasons, one, too dam expensive, two, I always want to be in control and three, if I want a toaster, I'll buy a 4 slicer that plugs in to a wall outlet. ;D

I see there is a charging station in the Meijers parking lot on Alexis by 75 now.  I do know that for as long as the owners of specific Tesla vehicles own them (and Tesla stays in business) that charging at a Tesla charge facility is free.  The X is included in that program btw.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on March 31, 2018, 09:59:42 AM
The 'driver' had actually received multiple alerts just prior to the crash that he needed to take physical control of the vehicle but apparently never touched the steering wheel prior to the crash.

Perhaps the driver experienced some type of medical emergency.

This literally may have happened in any vehicle with 'cruise control'... 

at some point the driver has to take responsibility for the 'overall' control of the vehicle. 

https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-data/ (https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-data/)

Could have been 'distracted'.  Talking on his cell phone, texting, playing a video game...lots of scenario's.  Bottom line is, the driver is deceased and got 'toasted' too.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: The Fuzz on March 31, 2018, 10:04:41 AM
Exactly my point Flip!

Wouldn't have mattered a bit had the vehicle been in control of a human.  There will always be variables and conditions that can't be accounted for.....self-driving or not!

What I do know from my engineering background is that sensors and microprocessors that take input from the sensor and activate mechanical reactions are much faster than the human mind can make.  Even old experienced drivers like you and I.  It becomes a matter of a person needing to feel in control of their own destiny, regardless if it is safer or not.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on March 31, 2018, 10:13:26 AM
Exactly my point Flip!

Wouldn't have mattered a bit had the vehicle been in control of a human.  There will always be variables and conditions that can't be accounted for.....self-driving or not!

What I do know from my engineering background is that sensors and microprocessors that take input from the sensor and activate mechanical reactions are much faster than the human mind can make.  Even old experienced drivers like you and I.  It becomes a matter of a person needing to feel in control of their own destiny, regardless if it is safer or not.

My son and I have had the 'reaction time' discussion. 

He thinks he's a 'safer' driver because his reaction time is quicker than mine (I'm just twice his age right now). 

But then I point out how much higher his 'distraction ratio' is than mine!!!

The bottom line is you can't react if you're not aware!

I think of the young stud from U of M athletic department that rear ended the car out on 23 by Petersburg...

killed the woman and the little girl because he was using his phone to look up strip clubs in wherever he was heading to.

You have to make driving your only priority...

not #2 or #3 or #4. 

I can see how the auto pilot on the Tesla or any self driving vehicle might 'lull' you into neglecting your duty as the driver.  Sounds like that is what happened in this case.  Maybe the driver just dozed off...   we'll probably never know those details.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on March 31, 2018, 10:24:41 AM
Self driving cars i think are experiencing the same problems that cars with drivers are experiencing.  There are accidents..I had an idiot whip in front of me yesterday and he she had to slam on the brakes for the car in front of her.  Thank God I have Brembo brakes or i probably wouldn't have had to stop.  I worry about the guys behind me because they don't have the braking power i do..
Maybe a driverless car would have been able to stop too.  But I don't know as i saw her coming probably before the sensors would have picked it up.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on April 01, 2018, 10:08:06 PM
My son and I have had the 'reaction time' discussion. 

He thinks he's a 'safer' driver because his reaction time is quicker than mine (I'm just twice his age right now). 

But then I point out how much higher his 'distraction ratio' is than mine!!!

The bottom line is you can't react if you're not aware!

I think of the young stud from U of M athletic department that rear ended the car out on 23 by Petersburg...

killed the woman and the little girl because he was using his phone to look up strip clubs in wherever he was heading to.

You have to make driving your only priority...

not #2 or #3 or #4. 

I can see how the auto pilot on the Tesla or any self driving vehicle might 'lull' you into neglecting your duty as the driver.  Sounds like that is what happened in this case.  Maybe the driver just dozed off...   we'll probably never know those details.

I listened to the audio of the crash and at the last second he basically said.... 'Oh shiitte' so he must have been lulled into in attention..

Any distraction, cell phone, hair brush, reading a book, even talking to a passenger can increase the reaction time tremendously.  IMO, with dedicated lanes they might work but on surface streets or highways with normal traffic flow, I think they are a liability at least until the technology becomes more advanced.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on April 01, 2018, 10:13:07 PM
Self driving cars i think are experiencing the same problems that cars with drivers are experiencing.  There are accidents..I had an idiot whip in front of me yesterday and he she had to slam on the brakes for the car in front of her.  Thank God I have Brembo brakes or i probably wouldn't have had to stop.  I worry about the guys behind me because they don't have the braking power i do..
Maybe a driverless car would have been able to stop too.  But I don't know as i saw her coming probably before the sensors would have picked it up.

Brembo brakes...  Thats funny.  Red calipers and not much else really.  Stopping power depends on the friction material and the force applied to the pads as well as the disc's ability to absorb the heat.  They are pretty no doubt but in 90% of situations, any brakes will do so long as they are in good working order.  Like Bilstein shocks.  Advertising hype that garners a premium price.  At least you didn't butt pack her, thats assured clear distance.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on April 02, 2018, 02:45:23 AM
There is a difference in the brakes. That's the first thing everyone notices when they drive my car.  Luckily mine aren't red and stand out like some..
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on April 02, 2018, 10:35:06 AM
There is a difference in the brakes. That's the first thing everyone notices when they drive my car.  Luckily mine aren't red and stand out like some..

The difference is in how aggressive the friction material is, the force applied to it (in your case multi pucks) and the rotor design.

Brembo's have ceramic pads and drilled and slotted rotors which isn't commonplace on most vehicles (but can be refitted).

I refitted CL's buggy with drilled and slotted rotors and EBC high friction ceramic pads when I did her brakes last fall.  She already has twin piston calipers (I replaced them as well), as a rule I never rebuild a caliper, easier to change out and I installed stainless braided brake hoses too.  Easy to tell if you have ceramic pas, there will be very little if any brake dust on your wheels.

OEM's tend not to use ceramic pas because they are expensive and we all know it's a build for the maximum profit scenario.

CL's buggy stops on a dime and gives you 9 cents change.  I did the rears ad well as the front's.  Remember, I'm an EBC dealer in my other life so all it takes is a call to EBC and I have them here.

You can refit most any vehicle to get race brakes if you want to.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on April 02, 2018, 10:39:43 AM
Yeah, i see a number of veh that people refit with the Brembo.
My ATS came with them.  Rotors are huge, but nothing like the guys CTS-V that i know.  I've never seen rotor like that.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on April 02, 2018, 10:52:31 AM
Rotor swept area (which determines the diameter), is based on vehicle weight and what will fit in the inner rim diameter.  The lighter the vehicle the less swept area is required.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on April 02, 2018, 09:20:28 PM
Rotor Swept Area = the amount of area on the rotor that the pad is in contact with.  You tend to get a large rotor swept area if the pad is square - which happens on single piston calipers.

Multi Piston Calipers tend to use a pad profile that is longer than it is tall, and this reduces the "Swept Area," but it allows you to move the "Effective Radius" of the system away from the center of the hub - and that results in more stopping power for the same diameter Rotor.  That is always a good thing.

Usually the rotor size is limited by the wheel selection of the vehicle.  You can't put a bigger rotor than you have wheel to put them in.  Also rotor size can be limited by the weight targets of the vehicle.  Rotating Unsprung Mass is the worst type of mass for many technical reasons.

Here is the reason - however - that Brembo Brakes are really just a marketing ploy for the vast amount of drivers on the road......

The Brakes don't stop your car.  The Tire patch to the road stops your car.  Any brake system on the road is more than capable of locking up your tires on the highest mu surface that is out there.  So - the limiting factor in how fast you can stop your car is the road surface you are on, the condition and type of tires on your corners, and how aggressively your slip control system is tuned - or if you have an old school car how well you keep your car at just before the lockup point.

Now - a Brembo type brake system may be better on a race track - or if you want to run an AMS test or something like that.  Say you are in the mountains, and driving the snot out of your car, then the Brembo's or other performance systems will delay the onset of brake fade, and that is a nice thing, but I doubt many drivers actually drive their cars hard enough to get into fade anyway.  Guys who drive heavy trucks down grades can tell you about fade.

One more thing......  Ceramic Linings is some companies idea of marketing.  There is no such thing.

You have NAO linings - or non asbestos organic linings - which by the way is what "ceramic" linings generally are.  I would say that this type of lining is on 95% of the OEMS cars that are sold worldwide.  They are great for reducing dust - and reducing rotor wear - which by the way is where most of the dust comes from.  Because you aren't wearing the rotor as much - your generation of disc thickness variation is reduced.  NAO linings tend to make less noise than other linings.  The downside to NAO linings is they don't like alot of heat - or they tend to disintegrate.

The other lining types are low steel and semi-met linings.  They are used on some of the heavier trucks and high performance cars - where there is alot of heat expected.  They don't fade as bad, don't give up with heat, won't disintegrate.  The trade off is they are dusty, noisy, and tear up your rotors.  If you gave Brembo a choice - they would use one of these linings, but many OEMS would force them to put a NAO in them - to hold down on warranty - because they know that most of the drivers just think they are better, but will never actually use them.

The biggest benefit of Brembo Brakes to the OEM and customer is they look pretty in the large open wheels that tend to be on those cars.

Now - if you go racing.....  well - you probably want better stuff than an OEM set of Brembos anyway.  All Bling and not so much whoa.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: BigRedDog on April 03, 2018, 10:17:44 AM
Rotor Swept Area = the amount of area on the rotor that the pad is in contact with.  You tend to get a large rotor swept area if the pad is square - which happens on single piston calipers.

Multi Piston Calipers tend to use a pad profile that is longer than it is tall, and this reduces the "Swept Area," but it allows you to move the "Effective Radius" of the system away from the center of the hub - and that results in more stopping power for the same diameter Rotor.  That is always a good thing.

Usually the rotor size is limited by the wheel selection of the vehicle.  You can't put a bigger rotor than you have wheel to put them in.  Also rotor size can be limited by the weight targets of the vehicle.  Rotating Unsprung Mass is the worst type of mass for many technical reasons.

Here is the reason - however - that Brembo Brakes are really just a marketing ploy for the vast amount of drivers on the road......

The Brakes don't stop your car.  The Tire patch to the road stops your car.  Any brake system on the road is more than capable of locking up your tires on the highest mu surface that is out there.  So - the limiting factor in how fast you can stop your car is the road surface you are on, the condition and type of tires on your corners, and how aggressively your slip control system is tuned - or if you have an old school car how well you keep your car at just before the lockup point.

Now - a Brembo type brake system may be better on a race track - or if you want to run an AMS test or something like that.  Say you are in the mountains, and driving the snot out of your car, then the Brembo's or other performance systems will delay the onset of brake fade, and that is a nice thing, but I doubt many drivers actually drive their cars hard enough to get into fade anyway.  Guys who drive heavy trucks down grades can tell you about fade.

One more thing......  Ceramic Linings is some companies idea of marketing.  There is no such thing.

You have NAO linings - or non asbestos organic linings - which by the way is what "ceramic" linings generally are.  I would say that this type of lining is on 95% of the OEMS cars that are sold worldwide.  They are great for reducing dust - and reducing rotor wear - which by the way is where most of the dust comes from.  Because you aren't wearing the rotor as much - your generation of disc thickness variation is reduced.  NAO linings tend to make less noise than other linings.  The downside to NAO linings is they don't like alot of heat - or they tend to disintegrate.

The other lining types are low steel and semi-met linings.  They are used on some of the heavier trucks and high performance cars - where there is alot of heat expected.  They don't fade as bad, don't give up with heat, won't disintegrate.  The trade off is they are dusty, noisy, and tear up your rotors.  If you gave Brembo a choice - they would use one of these linings, but many OEMS would force them to put a NAO in them - to hold down on warranty - because they know that most of the drivers just think they are better, but will never actually use them.

The biggest benefit of Brembo Brakes to the OEM and customer is they look pretty in the large open wheels that tend to be on those cars.

Now - if you go racing.....  well - you probably want better stuff than an OEM set of Brembos anyway.  All Bling and not so much whoa.

The brakes themselves or the tires or any part of the 'braking system' is only as good as the weakest link in the chain.  Most of the time in normal highway driving scenarios the weakest link will always be the 'nut behind the wheel'...   

either human error or more likely today human inattention. 

If the driver is distracted then it doesn't matter how good the brakes or the tires are...   you have problems ahead!!!

The very last 'link' in the braking equation is the condition of the roadway.  As MN mentions the tire has to be in contact with the road or it doesn't matter what your brake pads and calipers are doing. 

Most competition track surfaces are fairly well maintained and fairly smooth.  In everyday driving (especially this time of year) that is not the scenario. 

Here's some up to date info on the investigation into the Tesla X crash in California:

https://sinasdramis.com/michigan-catastrophic-claims-fee


Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on April 03, 2018, 10:27:13 AM
Like I've said all along, remove the mandatory and make it voluntary and the issue is solved.  If you want it fine,  If not you don't have to.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: Monroe Native on April 03, 2018, 08:00:00 PM
I totally agree that the weakest point is the loose nut behind the wheel.

That and the cell phones that people need to pay attention to more than driving is probably why we have the emergence of all the drivers aids.

Most new cars can now stop themselves when they realize the driver is busy doing something else, and many of them can keep them in the lane.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on April 04, 2018, 08:09:24 AM
The operators should not be doing anything else in the first place.  Bottom line.
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: blue2 on April 04, 2018, 10:53:36 AM
My granddaughter tapped the rear end of a veh one day last week and it only cracked her bumper a little and did no damage to the other veh.  Can't imagine what she was doing.
I nicely told her to leave the damn cell phone in the cup holder or pocket when she was driving.
i got no response..
Title: Re: Tesla
Post by: SidecarFlip on April 04, 2018, 10:20:58 PM
My granddaughter tapped the rear end of a veh one day last week and it only cracked her bumper a little and did no damage to the other veh.  Can't imagine what she was doing.
I nicely told her to leave the damn cell phone in the cup holder or pocket when she was driving.
i got no response..

I have blue tooth or WiFi  or whatever it is in my car and I never have to touch the phone.  It goes in the console and there it stays, but then, I'm not a phone junkie either.