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Categories => Politics and Government => Topic started by: lordfly on August 12, 2007, 09:18:16 PM

Title: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: lordfly on August 12, 2007, 09:18:16 PM
Just askin'.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Griff on August 12, 2007, 09:28:53 PM
Just askin'.


WARNING: RANT IS COMING....

We have two border control agents in US prison serving the equivalent of murder sentences for having shot an illegal alien (in the butt) who was admittedly carrying drugs into the US. This admitted 'mule' attempted to do so a second time following the first attempt.

He is wandering free in his home country, moving freely across our border with illegal substances, while the agents are serving time.

My President had an opportunity to commute the sentences of the two border agents but instead commuted the sentence of a man involved in the outing of a CIA operative.

My President has ignored the pleas of the families of the agents, the Congressmen from border states and has instead listened intently to the government of Mexico and the pleadings of known drug mule.

END OF RANT...

I think we should enforce the laws we have.

Peace,
Griff
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: no one gets my name right anyway on August 12, 2007, 09:44:07 PM
Griff, I need some facts/documentation before I openly believe those are the exact details.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Griff on August 12, 2007, 09:49:14 PM
Griff, I need some facts/documentation before I openly believe those are the exact details.


Here is the first link that came up in a search...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52545

I can't believe you haven't heard of this previously.

Peace,
Griff
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: no one gets my name right anyway on August 12, 2007, 09:52:33 PM
According to that article, they didn't follow protocol.  They violated two key areas: pursuit of the suspect by border patrol without supervisor approval, and shooting someone in the back.

I'd be mad at the people who made these laws instead, and the peers who convincted them.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Griff on August 12, 2007, 10:04:04 PM
I don't mean to hijack this thread, however....

During the trial, supervisors admitted knowing of the pursuiit and admitted knowing of the weapons discharge.

The agents testified that illegal alien attempting to smuggle drugs into the US was turning and pointing at them as if he had a weapon. They followed protocol by firing.

The illegal alien admitted (from the saftey of Mexico) that he was attempting to enter thye US illegally, that he was attempting to smuggle drugs.

That link is not the only source of information--take some time and follow-through with more information from reliable sources.

Thread hijack over,

peace,
Griff
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Matt (formerly ML) on August 12, 2007, 11:02:37 PM
Laws prohibiting any drugs do violence to the concepts of self-ownership and individual liberty. Such laws are invalid.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: eaglepride on August 12, 2007, 11:54:31 PM
I do think they should let the Indians in South Dakota grow hemp.  ;D
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Griff on August 13, 2007, 11:28:02 AM
Laws prohibiting any drugs do violence to the concepts of self-ownership and individual liberty. Such laws are invalid.


Please clarify... do you mean that if all laws prohibiting the sale, possesion and use of drugs were eliminated, thereby by making drug use legal; that it would/should by extension be legal for a minor child to use drugs?

peace,
Griff
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Farmer.Ted on August 13, 2007, 11:47:44 AM
I am not voting because you have no choice for reviewing ALL drug laws and rewriting them.  I will not vote no change because some of them need to go.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: SMASH on August 13, 2007, 12:05:39 PM
Not only did this illegal bring durgs in once he did it on at least one other occasion while awaiting to testify against the border patrol agents!!

There are several theroies regarding this event.
1) He was an agent working for the DEA or some other government agency that was using the dope money to support a covert operation.
2) The U.S. Justice Dept. sought him out for testimony to test the viability of the NAU. Under pressure from the White House.
3) He was possibly an agent of the government of Mexico.

None of these theories matter. The agents should be released and all those involved in this persecution, not prosecution charged and tried.
End the so called "War on Drugs" and save the U.S. taxpayers a ton of dough.
If you want to stop drugs entering this nation you can under the Constitution. Employ the power of the U.S. military and the Coast Guard and the National Guard. It is the duty of the government to provide for the security of the nation, well, do it. Not with some fake war that gets a lot of people killed and has NO hope of ending anything.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Ördög on August 13, 2007, 12:06:56 PM
I think that eliminating most marijuana laws, or even legalizing it would be a great start. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head but I do know that a lot of the people in our prisons and jails are there because of non violent marijuana charges. Just think about how many tax dollars could be saved if the marijuana users weren't being pursued, arrested, booked, jailed, and using up court time and costs. And I'd be willing to bet that the Monroe County Jail wouldn't need to send people to other jails if they sent all the pot heads home.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: zard0z on August 13, 2007, 12:39:45 PM
Legalize marijuana and tax it, it has a two fold benefit, money for the state and less small time criminals in the jail systems which are over crowded...!
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: lordfly on August 13, 2007, 12:50:29 PM
Legalize marijuana and tax it, it has a two fold benefit, money for the state and less small time criminals in the jail systems which are over crowded...!

I've often said that. If you tax it and make sure that 100% of the tax goes towards education scholarships, you can have your stoners subsidizing the kids who want to go to the University of Michigan (as long as they're drug free.. otherwise they have to pay their way)

Win/win. It's a deterrant for crime (who wants to have to pay for college AND weed?), and schools get a MASSIVE boost of funding (seriously probably at least a quarter of Monroe's population smokes weed on a regular basis... deal with it)
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: The Fuzz on August 13, 2007, 02:36:45 PM
I vote for the decriminalization of set, small amounts of marijauna.  I am afraid it would never happen in Monroe tho......that would be liberal and progressive and piss some of the folks off that don't get thier leaves picked up by the local governments.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Matt (formerly ML) on August 13, 2007, 03:30:42 PM
Laws prohibiting any drugs do violence to the concepts of self-ownership and individual liberty. Such laws are invalid.

Please clarify... do you mean that if all laws prohibiting the sale, possesion and use of drugs were eliminated, thereby by making drug use legal; that it would/should by extension be legal for a minor child to use drugs?
Always with the children.

Would you let a child for whom you're responsible eat nothing but butter and corn syrup?

If a person is capable of understanding and voluntarily accepting the consequences of drug use, they can use whatever drugs they want, whatever their age.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Greg Chamberlain on August 13, 2007, 03:41:11 PM
Right, because a tablespoon of butter is just as dangerous as a tablespoon of opium.  ::) ::) ::) ::)

Some of the examples you people give are lame.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Griff on August 13, 2007, 03:44:56 PM
Laws prohibiting any drugs do violence to the concepts of self-ownership and individual liberty. Such laws are invalid.

Please clarify... do you mean that if all laws prohibiting the sale, possesion and use of drugs were eliminated, thereby by making drug use legal; that it would/should by extension be legal for a minor child to use drugs?
Always with the children.

Would you let a child for whom you're responsible eat nothing but butter and corn syrup?

If a person is capable of understanding and voluntarily accepting the consequences of drug use, they can use whatever drugs they want, whatever their age.

Yes, it seems that my questions return often to applying your statements to everyone, as you imply. Just checking if I am misaaplying what you are actually meaning.

Why wouldn't I feed nothing but butter and corn syrup if the child can accept the consequences of my interaction with them?

Then the same would be applied to a minor child's legal purchase of alcohol and weapons such as a gun?

To use your reponse to a recent post (and pardon the unintentional pun...)

"your in the weeds."
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Matt (formerly ML) on August 13, 2007, 09:42:26 PM
Right, because a tablespoon of butter is just as dangerous as a tablespoon of opium.  ::) ::) ::) ::)

Some of the examples you people give are lame.
It's not about equating amounts or concentrations. It's about the concept of doing something to yourself, while knowing and accepting the potential consequences.

A very young child usually doesn't know that eating nothing but butter and corn syrup can be harmful, just as a very young child usually doesn't know that excessive use of just about anything, including opium, can be harmful. Do you see, now, how the example is analogous?
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Frenchfry on August 13, 2007, 09:58:10 PM
We would have zero chance passing any laws allowing all drug use so perhaps we really should try to legalize marijuana or at least decriminalize it.
I also feel that since 18 year olds can risk their lives fighting for this country that they should be allowed to drink alcohol. That alone would prevent many of our young people from having negative experiences with the criminal justice system.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: no one gets my name right anyway on August 13, 2007, 10:00:28 PM
We would have zero chance passing any laws allowing all drug use so perhaps we really should try to legalize marijuana or at least decriminalize it.
I also feel that since 18 year olds can risk their lives fighting for this country that they should be allowed to drink alcohol. That alone would prevent many of our young people from having negative experiences with the criminal justice system.


I agree in the sense that if you can defend our country you deserve more rights, but there is a lack of maturity that I worry about in terms of drinking and driving.

Besides, MIPs aren't too much to get through...

Maybe we should just make 21 the legal military age?
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: eaglepride on August 13, 2007, 10:11:40 PM
I think the Indians in South Dakota should be able to grow hemp.  ;D
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Frenchfry on August 13, 2007, 10:33:04 PM
Lowering the drinking age to 18 doesn’t give anyone a free pass to drink and drive.

They really should allow the Indians to grow hemp.
There are huge fields of very tall marijuana plants growing on the side of the freeway in Iowa right now.
They have huge buds on them and look like a “High Times” readers dream but the hemp plants are really very low in the active ingredient, THC.
No buzz from that stuff.


Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: eaglepride on August 13, 2007, 10:36:54 PM
Lowering the drinking age to 18 doesn’t give anyone a free pass to drink and drive.

They really should allow the Indians to grow hemp.
There are huge fields of very tall marijuana plants growing on the side of the freeway in Iowa right now.
They have huge buds on them and look like a “High Times” readers dream but the hemp plants are really very low in the active ingredient, THC.
No buzz from that stuff.
So why is the government refusing to allow the Indians to grow it and make a living?
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Frenchfry on August 13, 2007, 10:50:39 PM
Maybe nobody in the government knows about Iowa or perhaps they don’t want the competition.
I do know that I saw what looked like a military guy jogging through an asphalt path in the middle of the field heading toward the freeway and yet there are no buildings, houses or vehicles around for miles.
That guy has to have some kind of underground bunker in there somewhere.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: doubtfire on August 13, 2007, 10:55:26 PM
Legalize marijuana and tax it, it has a two fold benefit, money for the state and less small time criminals in the jail systems which are over crowded...!
 When we were at the Jazz festival and art fair, there was a man (older gentleman) and he asked us to sign a petition for legalizing marijuana. Imagine that person on the streets of Monroe?  I was surprised!  I had seen several people walking around with the petition in Ann Arbor, but Monroe?
   Well, I am so sick of all the government control they have  over us, when they can do just about anything and then get away with it. (Like Scooter Libbey being pardoned, for an example.)  So maybe I don't agree with this but I signed it anyway, and so did my husband.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Matt (formerly ML) on August 13, 2007, 11:03:58 PM
Laws prohibiting any drugs do violence to the concepts of self-ownership and individual liberty. Such laws are invalid.

Please clarify... do you mean that if all laws prohibiting the sale, possesion and use of drugs were eliminated, thereby by making drug use legal; that it would/should by extension be legal for a minor child to use drugs?
Always with the children.

Would you let a child for whom you're responsible eat nothing but butter and corn syrup?

If a person is capable of understanding and voluntarily accepting the consequences of drug use, they can use whatever drugs they want, whatever their age.

Yes, it seems that my questions return often to applying your statements to everyone, as you imply. Just checking if I am misaaplying what you are actually meaning.
Young children (who are entirely different than the legal concept of "minors", which is arbitrarily based on age) are not usually capable of completely understanding and voluntarily accepting the consequences of their actions. That is why when one becomes a parent, one is responsible for one's offspring, until they are capable of being responsible for themselves. Until a child has that capacity, parents act as the responsible party on behalf of the child, so yes, the concept applies to everyone, with a parent as proxy for a child who is not yet completely responsible for himself.

Quote
Why wouldn't I feed nothing but butter and corn syrup if the child can accept the consequences of my interaction with them?
You've altered the context of the example. I stipulated that you're responsible for the child. If a person is capable of understanding and voluntarily accepting the consequences of their actions, they don't need you to be responsible for them.

Quote
Then the same would be applied to a minor child's legal purchase of alcohol and weapons such as a gun?
Yes, as long as they're capable of understanding and voluntarily accepting the consequences of their actions. But again, be careful with vague labels like "minor" and "legal".

Quote
To use your reponse to a recent post (and pardon the unintentional pun...)
"your in the weeds."
Hardly. That was directed at a person who chose to take umbrage at my choice of analogy, rather than address the issue at hand.

It's no one's business but your own what you do with yourself.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Massagetherapyworks on August 13, 2007, 11:08:12 PM
In my opinion, there should be much stiffer alcohol laws and much lighter marijuana laws. There are masses of drivers, everywhere, under the influence...killing and injuring every day. Alcohol is ruining people's, and their families, lives...and they're getting younger and younger. And they're disgusting and violent.
While I don't condone it, I don't often hear of someone who's high on pot causing massive auto accidents. They don't seem to beat doors down, or shoot the fast food server. Let's roll those babies into pot packs just like cigarettes and make some money for the USA farmers. It would be a great change-over for the tobacco farmers, although you could easily grow your own...maybe that's why the GOV doesn't want to legalize it. Just like having the electric co.'s develop solar energy...they won't til they can figure out how to charge us for it.
Years ago my dear mom asked me about pot...I told her it's like this...Three guys walked up to a locked door, with no way of turning back. The guy on LSD said 'Let's float through the keyhole", the guy on alcohol said "Let's break the door down!", and the guy on pot said "Let's wait for someone to come and unlock the door".
I lived in Ann Arbor when there was the $5 ticket for posession of less than an ounce of pot. There didn't seem to be any huge problems then. Let's bring it back! ...even though I don't smoke it anymore...
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Frenchfry on August 14, 2007, 12:13:06 AM
“Three guys walked up to a locked door, with no way of turning back. The guy on LSD said 'Let's float through the keyhole", the guy on alcohol said "Let's break the door down!", and the guy on pot said "Let's wait for someone to come and unlock the door"

I like that analogy.  ;D

Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: PrincessAmy on August 14, 2007, 12:18:57 AM
The Netherlands hasn't had problems since they legalized small amounts of marijuana

You can't grow your own, but you can smoke it in coffeeshops. I personally never touched the stuff, but got a big whiff of the smell when walking by one in Amsterdam!

Small amounts is not a big deal. Big amounts (as in poss w/intent) is a problem.

But as a poster before me said - alcohol is a MUCH bigger problem.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: the nosh on August 14, 2007, 09:00:45 AM


Small amounts is not a big deal. Big amounts (as in poss w/intent) is a problem.

amy...where do the people with the "not a big deal small amounts"...get them from?? usually from the big amounts person that is a problem!!  ;D

the bottom line is...it should be legalized/decriminalized.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Dadof7 on August 14, 2007, 10:45:56 AM
What is interesting about marijuana laws is where they actually came from... the mid-20's when Dupont was interested in finding a way to monopolize the fabric industry with their new invention, Nylon.

The hemp plant actually has quite a history prior to the 1920's... and if it wasn't illegal, there is a good chance that we'd have MANY things that would be made from hemp.

Hemp makes excellent paper, rope, clothes, and the oil derived from hemp could be used to make alternative fuels for transportation.  If legal, we wouldn't need to worry about all the deforestation, because marijuana grows so rapidly by comparison to trees and fossil fuels.

However, due to the government's desire to TRY to protect people from themselves, we'll most likely never know all the things that would in fact be better if marijuana/hemp were legalized.

My idea:  Take all the child molesters and violent criminals that are incarcerated, and make them grow marijuana on government fields.  Then the government can produce it for next to nothing, and sell it to American Citizens for a 1000% mark-up.  The sales and taxes created by this idea would be enough to help pay down our national debt, feed the hungry, and house the homeless.

Ask any doctor, and they'll tell you:  marijuana is less dangerous than alcohol or tobacco... but the lobbyists won't let you know this important information.  We all know tobacco can and does kill people.  We all know that alcohol can an does kill people.  I have never seen or heard of anyone that died from smoking a joint...

When a person drinks and gets drunk, and then makes the mistake of driving... all they want to do is see how fast they can go and how much attention they can draw to themselves.  Whereas, when a person smokes marijuana... all they wish to do is eat some junk food, watch the best crappy movie that anyone else has ever seen... and sleep.

Oh, and when was the last time you saw someone commit a violent crime because they were so high on pot?

Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Griff on August 14, 2007, 10:52:22 AM

My idea:  Take all the child molesters and violent criminals that are incarcerated, and make them grow marijuana on government fields.  Then the government can produce it for next to nothing, and sell it to American Citizens for a 1000% mark-up.  The sales and taxes created by this idea would be enough to help pay down our national debt, feed the hungry, and house the homeless.

Dadof7 I was tracking along with you until you got to this point.

If you can open the phone book to the yellow pages and find a private business already doing it, you should keep the government out of it. Why do you want to compete with farmers that have the infrastructure in place and could use the alternate revenue source?

Griff
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Farmer.Ted on August 14, 2007, 01:18:09 PM
I was going to reply to someone here..

Ok what I want to say is..

Does anyone have any gum?

Ever wonder why left is called left and right is called right?

Man am I hungry...

Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: riar on August 14, 2007, 06:16:24 PM
I would much rather live with, near, or know people that prefer to smoke a joint than drink anyday. Drinking and drunks have ruined more lives than any marijuana smokers. Instead of road rage, spousal abuse, and obnoxious and sometime dangerous intentions through drunkeness, with marijuana we would have people going about 45 mph on the highway, if they managed to leave the house at all, zero spousal abuse because no one would remember the details that set off the argument, and the abuser wouldn't bother to get off the couch to do anything. If there must be addictions, then let them roll joints 

Besides what about the pharmaceutical companies that PUSH drugs on anyone that enters a doctor's office? Now that looks like a conspiracy to do harm. Tell me the pharmaceutical industry wouldn't love to see everyone on earth on some kind of pill? If we don't control that, we have no business controlling the other. And what control? I think the DEA is just a way to funnel money to friends.

Mayor LaGuardia had it right way back in the 50's, "We cannot control a weed that can grow just about anywhere!" Legalize it. The number one reason prohibition was overturned was because the laws just could not be enforced, yet we carry on with these marijuana laws for 40 some years now, while one of the biggest hits on TV is "Weeds."

We're a bunch of hypocrites. When Ronnie Reagan got his DEA together to crack down on cocaine, the U.S. was the largest exporter to South America for the chemicals needs to process it. Now if that isn't the right hand doing something completely different than the left I don't know.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: gefiltefish on August 24, 2007, 08:09:23 PM

Mayor LaGuardia had it right way back in the 50's, "We cannot control a weed that can grow just about anywhere!" Legalize it.

[/quote]

Mayor Fiorello Henry LaGuardia of New York died on September 20, 1947.



Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: chuntley on August 25, 2007, 08:32:36 AM
The major problem with legalizine weed is the goverments ability to control the cultivation and thus the taxation Booze was simular until the government figured how to tax it,, the biggest problem with the ability to tax weed is anybody can grow it basically anywhere,, from your basement to your attic.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Frenchfry on August 25, 2007, 10:16:50 AM
I wonder what the two people that voted for stiffer penalties were thinking.
Maybe they’re in construction and hoping that more prisons would be built.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: chuntley on August 25, 2007, 10:33:10 AM
there is already too many small time dealers sitting in prison. People don't rob and break into your house to buy beer,, if you could buy the stuff walmart people might stop hurting others for it. Can you inagine a old granny in line with a dime bag next to her depends
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: afveteran88 on August 25, 2007, 02:50:26 PM
I happen to work in a prison and I here about these drug sentences daily. Almost all the criminals know what the penalty is for any drug crime. My simple standing on this matter is "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time" The only part about drug laws that has to looked at is the conspiracy aspect. For example. If I sold you one pound of weed 5 years ago and you get picked up today for possesion. You then rat to the police everyone you ever bought weed from. The police now come get you and figure you've now been selling weed for at least the past five years at a pound a week. Now you are being charged with a huge crime and you may have stopped selling 5 years ago. Was it wrong that you sold in the first place? Yes But should the police now be able to pin 5 years worth of drug sales on you? No. Some things do need to change.
Title: Re: Poll: Should the drug laws be lowered/removed?
Post by: Matt (formerly ML) on August 25, 2007, 03:12:14 PM
My simple standing on this matter is "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time"
Like the crime of sitting in the white people seats on the bus?

Quote
Was it wrong that you sold in the first place? Yes
No, it's not wrong. Drug sale, possession and use are matters of personal preference.

So many issues like this can be answered by looking at them from a small scale perspective. Ask yourself: would you get together with a few of your neighbors to forcibly prevent some of your other neighbors from smoking some plant? I certainly wouldn't, and neither would you, and if you you tried, you'd deserve the thrashing you'd receive.

There is nothing magical about scaling up the number of people who get together to compel other people to comply with their preferences that transforms mere preference to "right". Whether it's some neighbors or millions of voters, both groups are forcing their preferences upon people.