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Categories => News => Topic started by: offroadracer99 on August 05, 2008, 12:45:51 AM

Title: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: offroadracer99 on August 05, 2008, 12:45:51 AM
 WDET News

Buy American or You're Fired!
Aug 4, 2008
General


A Metro Detroit mayor says he wants his department heads to think carefully the next time they walk into an auto showroom.

    Warren Mayor Jim Fouts says his 40 or so appointees – from the city engineer to the police commissioner – could find themselves unemployed if they decide not to buy from the Detroit Three automakers.

    He says his appointees have already signed an ethics code against ageism, racism, sexism and drinking on the job.

    “I believe I can also say that I expect you to buy an American made automobile. Now, if they choose not to that they can terminate their employment and work somewhere else… but I have an obligation to the taxpayers in this city to make sure that those of us who benefit from the taxes they pay will support the taxpayers who pay our salaries.”

    Fouts says the Buy American effort is important because Warren is the home of the General Motors Tech Center and a Chrysler plant – the city’s two biggest taxpayers.

    Fouts says the city attorney is researching the legality of imposing such a rule on the personal shopping habits of Warren’s city department heads. Fouts says he’s also going to talk to leaders of the city’s employee unions about his Buy American campaign.

End Article.

I seen this and think it is a little out of line trying to tell people what to buy. Where will it end, you have to buy only American clothes, electronics, or food? So no new Nikes, new TVs or Bananas?

You can't get rid of someone based on what car they buy. Thats just BS.

Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: PrincessAmy on August 05, 2008, 01:57:53 AM
I call BS since my friends Honda Accord was made in the US, and the Ford Focus was made in Mexico.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: EggMan on August 05, 2008, 05:44:18 AM
The Toyota Camry, Avalon and some other Toyota vehicles are designed in Ann Arbor and built in Georgetown, Kentucky.

People who say things like what Fouts said here haven't got a clue.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: the nosh on August 05, 2008, 08:35:16 AM
i think the clue is...where the final dollar ends up. japan or the usa.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: PXaiver on August 05, 2008, 08:43:33 AM
i think the clue is...where the final dollar ends up. japan or the usa.

Well then does that make me a traitor for working for a Japanese company?
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: the nosh on August 05, 2008, 08:52:35 AM
Well then does that make me a traitor for working for a Japanese company?




i think the answer to that is...only if you think so yourself!!

i work for an american company that sells and services japanese crap. and i am far from a traitor!  ;)
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: 7n7 on August 05, 2008, 09:00:53 AM
i think the clue is...where the final dollar ends up. japan or the usa.

How many Euros make it back to the US from GM Europe?   ???
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: EggMan on August 05, 2008, 09:09:03 AM
If the cars are built in Kentucky with local workers ... nosh, your response is classic "big three or nothing", which makes no sense today.

Look here (http://www.nummi.com/co_info.php): "New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc.(NUMMI) is the pioneering joint venture of General Motors Corporation and Toyota Motor Corporation. Established in Fremont, California, in 1984, NUMMI helped change the automobile industry by introducing the Toyota Production System and a teamwork-based working environment to the United States ... Today, NUMMI has grown to become a company of 5,440 team members who produce three award-winning vehicles: Toyota Corolla, Toyota Tacoma and Pontiac Vibe ..."

Chevy Geos and Toyota Corollas have always rolled off that line together; they're basically the same car.

I'll bet you even like Canadian ketchup! Yup, that Heinz stuff ... danged Canooks ... ;D
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: daphne on August 05, 2008, 01:21:46 PM
So does this mean pre-DaimlerChrysler Jeeps are okay, and ones built in the last year or so, but you'll be fired if you drive one from the years when the profits were going to Germany?

What about my Honda? Built in Ohio, it has more American-made parts than anything else I could have purchased in the price range at the time -- including so-called Big Three cars.

I forget the Republican talking points so easily.  Capitalism and free choice are good, unless you're making choices they disagree with. Maybe there's a cable news channel that could help me.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: the nosh on August 05, 2008, 01:28:37 PM
if it says ford...i will buy it. ;)
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Bedfordres on August 05, 2008, 02:23:55 PM
Private companies can do what they want.  But I still don't think it's right to tell people what to buy.  I know some auto plants made employees park in a separate lot if they drove something other than who they worked for.  Governments shouldn't be telling people what to buy or they lose their jobs.  I think if they are procurement people they can be told not to buy certain products.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 05, 2008, 03:16:54 PM
Here are some talking points for you to remember when you're considering what type of vehicle to buy next.

* GM, Ford, and Chrysler, operate units in all 50 states.
* Employ 8 out of every 10 American auto workers (this figure is likely smaller  but still significant now)
* Impact more than 7 million American jobs. By comparison all other automakers impact about 1.8 million.
* The Big Three spend more on research and development than any other industry in this country at approximately 16.9 billion dollars per year.
* The Big Three purchase nearly 80% of all US auto parts. They spend about 171 billion dollars per year on American auto parts; the Japanese and other manufacturers spend about 50 billion.
* Have the highest domestic parts content of any manufacturer
      * The Big Three = 76%
      * Japanese        = 48%
      * European        = 7%
      * Korean           = 3%
* the Big Three build 7 out of every 10 cars and trucks made in America. In 2005 that figure stood at 7.8 million vehicles manufacturered by the Big Three here in American.
* By nearly 13 billion dollars are the largest exporters of American goods.
* From 2003-2006 invested more than 38 billion dollars in America. That is more than all other manufactures had in the previous 25 years (33 billion).
* The Big Three design and manufacture in the most open auto market in the world. Nearly 40% of all vehicles sold in the US are imported compared to about 5% in Japan and less than 3% in Korea. The Asian competitors use non-tariff barriers to maintain closed domestic markets whereas the American market is free and open to competition.
* The manipulation of the value of the Yen by the Japanese government has lead to huge artifical subsidies on Japenese imports to this country unfairly giving them an advantage over American manufacturers.

*** Sources include:

Direct employment provided by the manufacturers themselves as of 1/1/06
Center of Automotive Research
Wards Automotive Facts and Figures
2005 parts pruchases by manufacturers
US Department of Transportation - American Automobile Labeling Act 2006
US Motor Vehicle Production Reports 2005
US Department of Commerce
Automotive News
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Lethlweapn on August 05, 2008, 03:44:02 PM
    *  Ford F-150: 80% domestic content, down from 90% for '07
    * Chevrolet Silverado 1500: 85% for '08, down from 90% for '07
    * Toyota Camry/Solara: 68% for '08, down from 78% for '07
    * Honda Accord: 60% for '08, down from 65% for '07
    * Toyota Corolla: 50% for '09, down from 65% for '08
    * Toyota Matrix: 65% for '09, down from 75% for '08
    * Dodge Ram: 68% for '08, down from 72% for '07
    * Honda Pilot: 70% for '09, same as '08
    * Honda Civic: 70% for '08, up from 55% for '07


http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=amMade0808&subject=ami

What Are the Top American-Made Cars?
Cars.com's American-Made Index rates vehicles built and bought in the U.S. Factors include sales, where the car's parts are made and whether the car is assembled in the U.S. Models that have been discontinued are disqualified, as are those with a domestic-parts content rating below 75 percent.
Rank   Make/Model   U.S. Assembly Location   Last Rank
1.   Ford F-150*   Claycomo, Mo.; Dearborn, Mich.   1
2.   Chevrolet Cobalt   Lordstown, Ohio   2
3.   Chevrolet Malibu**   Kansas City, Kan.   9
4.   Pontiac G6   Orion, Mich.   5
5.   Toyota Tundra   Princeton, Ind.San Antonio   4
6.   Toyota Sienna   Princeton, Ind.   6
7.   Honda Odyssey   Lincoln, Ala.   -
8.   Chevrolet Silverado 1500*   Fort Wayne, Ind.; Pontiac, Mich.   3
9.   Chrysler Sebring   Sterling Heights, Mich.   -
10.   Ford Explorer/Sport Trac   Louisville, Ky.   
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: the nosh on August 05, 2008, 04:29:36 PM
you can stuff your honda up someones toyota.  ;)
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Boylanjl on August 05, 2008, 05:11:04 PM
With the economics the way they are, you see more "Globaly" sourced parts in the auto industry.  I support buying from American owned companies as much as possible.   I think what this mayor is doing is wrong, telling employees buy from here or your fired is wrong.  Telling them they must live within the city, ok, we pay you to work here so you must reside here is different.   
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: lordfly on August 05, 2008, 05:52:56 PM
I support buying the best car for your money.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: ytrewq on August 05, 2008, 10:48:24 PM
Can anyone provide a breakdown of the nationalities of the owners of the publicly traded companies that produce cars?
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: bethany6788 on August 05, 2008, 10:51:30 PM
I support buying the best car for your money.



I hear ya on that one, lordfly
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: monroedude on August 05, 2008, 11:10:43 PM
I think this is America where I can buy whatever car i damn well please.  That is total BS especially when most Hondas and Toyotas sold here are also BUILT HERE.  Ford Fusions are built in Mexico, now tell me which one is an American made car!
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: dlambrix on August 05, 2008, 11:20:15 PM
That's the exact attitude that got Michigan exactly where it is now.  Great attitude!
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Aunt Lisa on August 05, 2008, 11:22:19 PM

   I will always buy US, but I will never buy another Ford. (Before you jump on me, I strongly disagree with the gay community lifestyle or support but I won't judge them, it's not my job. I would help them and love them just as much as my best friend.) Ford can give money for them but lay off many hard working men and women. And PLEASE just sell the Lions football team.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 05, 2008, 11:36:55 PM
I think this is America where I can buy whatever car i damn well please.  That is total BS especially when most Hondas and Toyotas sold here are also BUILT HERE.  Ford Fusions are built in Mexico, now tell me which one is an American made car!

Most?!?

Really. So please tell me of all the vehicles sold by Toyota in this country where most of them are manufactured? Your concept is ENTIRELY incorrect.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: lordfly on August 05, 2008, 11:47:41 PM
That's the exact attitude that got Michigan exactly where it is now.  Great attitude!

No, the attitude that got Michigan where it is now is relying 100% on an industry that was too cocky to improve itself.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: ChadB on August 06, 2008, 12:20:13 AM
if it says ford...i will buy it. ;)

God bless you, Nosh!
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: ChadB on August 06, 2008, 12:25:50 AM
  I will always buy US, but I will never buy another Ford. (Before you jump on me, I strongly disagree with the gay community lifestyle or support but I won't judge them, it's not my job. I would help them and love them just as much as my best friend.) Ford can give money for them but lay off many hard working men and women. And PLEASE just sell the Lions football team.

Sweetheart, gays aren't going anywwhere. Ford's decision to target the gay community was the RIGHT one. Gays spend the same money we do, and they generally have more of it. If they buy Fords, and Ford's decision to market to them means they likely WILL..that's just super news to me.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: ChadB on August 06, 2008, 12:27:02 AM
No, the attitude that got Michigan where it is now is relying 100% on an industry that was too cocky to improve itself.


Don't stick a welder in your eye! I'll help you! ;D
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Sojourner on August 06, 2008, 12:45:33 AM
if it says ford...i will buy it. ;)
God bless you, Nosh!
My Dad retired from Ford's, so I'm pretty fond of them.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: eriemermaid on August 06, 2008, 06:08:39 AM
I think this is America where I can buy whatever car I please. 

This is the land of the free - home of the brave.  We have choices we can all make.  If you are worried about the big 1-2-3??  buy another F-150.  As for me, I will by what I want!  I love freedom!  I love choice!
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Sojourner on August 06, 2008, 06:28:23 AM
This is the land of the free - home of the brave.  We have choices we can all make.  If you are worried about the big 1-2-3??  buy another F-150.  As for me, I will by what I want!  I love freedom!  I love choice!
I love supporting our Country that gives us that choice by buying American.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: ell on August 06, 2008, 08:29:27 AM
I love supporting our Country that gives us that choice by buying American.

That a sentiment I agree with Sojo.  I will buy American badged products if at all possible.  While that list is shrinking, there are a lot of things we buy that can be found to be American made.  People need to look around and see if their source of income can be outsourced out of country or to the internet.  I make very few purchases online for this reason.  I seek out places with good customer service.  Of course internet sales will slow some with laws coming out for the collection of sales taxes.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: wingsfan24 on August 06, 2008, 08:46:16 AM
I am proud to say I own a Honda one the number 1 car company's out there because they know how to run a good business, how is it that Honda and Toyota have been importing jobs to america to where nearly all there cars are built here now andour so called American Car Companies have to export them to other countries.  The bumper stickers that read OUt of a Job yet? Keep buying Foreign, are very ignorant and obnoxious bumper stickers, just cause I buy a honda isn't going to prevent me fromgetting a job. 
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: the nosh on August 06, 2008, 08:51:57 AM
i know this isnt much...but something with a foreign name on it will never get in front of me in a traffic jam.  ;)
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: T-M-T on August 06, 2008, 08:54:22 AM
I am proud to say I own a Honda one the number 1 car company's out there because they know how to run a good business, how is it that Honda and Toyota have been importing jobs to america to where nearly all there cars are built here now andour so called American Car Companies have to export them to other countries.  The bumper stickers that read OUt of a Job yet? Keep buying Foreign, are very ignorant and obnoxious bumper stickers, just cause I buy a honda isn't going to prevent me fromgetting a job. 

I'd like a bumper sticker that says:  Out of a job yet?  Keep building junk.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: 7n7 on August 06, 2008, 09:15:14 AM
Might be of interest to some...

http://www.cnbc.com/id/25349480/site/14081545/
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 06, 2008, 10:41:34 AM
I'd like a bumper sticker that says:  Out of a job yet?  Keep building junk.


That a common American misconception; a very ignorant one at that.

The difference in quality anymore is negligble at best. JD Power and Associates tends to agree.

I am proud to say I own a Honda one the number 1 car company's out there because they know how to run a good business, how is it that Honda and Toyota have been importing jobs to america to where nearly all there cars are built here now andour so called American Car Companies have to export them to other countries.  The bumper stickers that read OUt of a Job yet? Keep buying Foreign, are very ignorant and obnoxious bumper stickers, just cause I buy a honda isn't going to prevent me fromgetting a job. 

Your purchase of a Honda at some point will or already has caused the loss of an American job. The American manufactrers pay better wages, benefits, etc. and their direct manfuacturing efforts here have a larger impact on the local economy that those of their foreign competitors.

Most Japanese cars sold here in this country are not manufacturered here.

American car companies do not export many vehicles; they are growing their brands in those nations by building facilities there.

There is too much ignorance in terms of the attitude towards American auto manufacturers.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: T-M-T on August 06, 2008, 10:56:25 AM
I am not referring to just the quality issues, but also resale values.  The Japanese and European cars I have owned have far exceeded any American car on both of these fronts. 

Like Lee Iacocca used to say, "If you can find a better car, buy it."  That's what I do.

     
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 06, 2008, 11:17:54 AM
I am not referring to just the quality issues, but also resale values.  The Japanese and European cars I have owned have far exceeded any American car on both of these fronts. 

Like Lee Iacocca used to say, "If you can find a better car, buy it."  That's what I do.

     

That might be where they're truly still ahead and that was largely due to the fact that the foreign competitors didn't fleet their vehicles.

However, as their sales rise I think you're going to see this trend change as well.

The American manufacturers, specifically GM and Ford .. are much closer to catching up then some think.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: T-M-T on August 06, 2008, 11:34:22 AM
The American manufacturers, specifically GM and Ford .. are much closer to catching up then some think.

I really wish they would make some cars worth buying.  If the new Cadillac CTS is any indication, they actually can make an exciting car.  Those are nice and definitely on my list for next time.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 06, 2008, 12:00:08 PM
I really wish they would make some cars worth buying.  If the new Cadillac CTS is any indication, they actually can make an exciting car.  Those are nice and definitely on my list for next time.

The new Malibu is phenomenal and the G8 is an absolute blast to drive.

I don't know as much about Ford's vehicle lineup.

The biggesst trick is returning to profitability and leveling the playing field (read: getting the Bank of Japan to cease their currency devaluation and getting the foreign countries to open their markets to the point that ours are.)
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: T-M-T on August 06, 2008, 12:07:42 PM
The new Malibu is phenomenal and the G8 is an absolute blast to drive.

I don't know as much about Ford's vehicle lineup.

The biggesst trick is returning to profitability and leveling the playing field (read: getting the Bank of Japan to cease their currency devaluation and getting the foreign countries to open their markets to the point that ours are.)

I like both of those cars a lot, but can't believe they don't offer an in-dash navigation system in either one.  After having it in my last two cars, I'll never buy one without it.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 06, 2008, 12:17:28 PM
I like both of those cars a lot, but can't believe they don't offer an in-dash navigation system in either one.  After having it in my last two cars, I'll never buy one without it.

That is strange. I know at our dealer you can get it added on, third party. GM also does offer the OnStar which has the option for turn-by-turn directions which work excellent. Of course there is the subscriber fee but I don't think its very much considering all of the safety aspects that come associated with OnStar.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: ell on August 06, 2008, 01:05:27 PM
I like both of those cars a lot, but can't believe they don't offer an in-dash navigation system in either one.  After having it in my last two cars, I'll never buy one without it.

I would rather go with a handheld.  An in-dash navigation system was one of the things listed as an option to avoid.  It seems the article mentioned something about updating the system, but then that problem may have been resolved by now.  In any case, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but I understand it is important to some.  Just a question, do you turn your cars over relatively quick, say 2-3 years?
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: T-M-T on August 06, 2008, 01:19:36 PM
I would rather go with a handheld.  An in-dash navigation system was one of the things listed as an option to avoid.  It seems the article mentioned something about updating the system, but then that problem may have been resolved by now.  In any case, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but I understand it is important to some.  Just a question, do you turn your cars over relatively quick, say 2-3 years?

I usually keep cars for 3-4 years.  I actually have a portable GPS that I use when I rent cars in other cities.  I don't like the cord and having the unit in the way of my vision, plus I worry about someone breaking into the car to steal the unit.  The in-dash setup is just so much cleaner and I like the way it works with the other electronic functions in the car.  (For instance, it can lower the radio volume when it gives out verbal directions.)  My wife and I each have different nav systems built into our different car brands, but they both work by DVD.  You can get a new DVD if you want to update the system.  The portable can be updated just by a download from the internet, so it is actually more up-to-date, but other than a few hotels and restaurants changing names, the updates aren't that critical to me.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: ell on August 06, 2008, 01:29:14 PM
I usually keep cars for 3-4 years.  I actually have a portable GPS that I use when I rent cars in other cities.  I don't like the cord and having the unit in the way of my vision, plus I worry about someone breaking into the car to steal the unit.  The in-dash setup is just so much cleaner and I like the way it works with the other electronic functions in the car.  (For instance, it can lower the radio volume when it gives out verbal directions.)  My wife and I each have different nav systems built into our different car brands, but they both work by DVD.  You can get a new DVD if you want to update the system.  The portable can be updated just by a download from the internet, so it is actually more up-to-date, but other than a few hotels and restaurants changing names, the updates aren't that critical to me.

Thanks for the information T-M-T.  I'm not familiar with the systems and have to base my limited knowledge on what I read.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: T-M-T on August 06, 2008, 01:35:50 PM
Thanks for the information T-M-T.  I'm not familiar with the systems and have to base my limited knowledge on what I read.

I will add that an updated DVD for my nav system (Acura) runs $185, which is more than some complete portable GPS units run.  So if you are looking to save money, portable is definitely the way to go.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Lethlweapn on August 06, 2008, 01:37:17 PM
Most Japanese cars sold here in this country are not manufactured here.
While most of them built here are sold here. And are made of mostly US parts as shown in my previous post.

American car companies do not export many vehicles; they are growing their brands in those nations by building facilities there.

Then they also import a lot of vehicles, from those countries like South Korea, Mexico, etc. Mostly the economical cars that get good gas mileage, although that is starting to change now that the American appetite has changed. Making even more jobs go overseas and outside of our borders.

There is too much ignorance in terms of the attitude towards American auto manufacturers.
As there is about foreign car companies building cars here.

I could have also changed that to

There is too much arrogance in terms of the attitude From American auto manufacturers.

Which has gotten the Big three to where it is today.

Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: ell on August 06, 2008, 01:47:00 PM
I will add that an updated DVD for my nav system (Acura) runs $185, which is more than some complete portable GPS units run.  So if you are looking to save money, portable is definitely the way to go.

Thanks again for that information.  Heck, I don't think the car I'm driving is worth $185! lol.  :-\
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: SidecarFlip on August 06, 2008, 01:50:07 PM
you can stuff your honda up someones toyota.  ;)

You can stick your Corolla up someone's Tundra....................... :o
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: SidecarFlip on August 06, 2008, 01:52:30 PM
Thanks again for that information.  Heck, I don't think the car I'm driving is worth $185! lol.  :-\

You can get a hundred buck for the convertor if you saw it off and take it to the scrap yard........................
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: ell on August 06, 2008, 02:02:35 PM
You can get a hundred buck for the convertor if you saw it off and take it to the scrap yard........................

Thanks Flip, I'll keep that in mind.  I guess I could strip the copper out of it too.  I hear copper is around $4 per pound.  Maybe I could break the $200 barrier!
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 06, 2008, 02:19:36 PM
Lethl, you listed a few vehicles made here with high American parts content.

The fact of the matter is The Big Three companies across the board use more domestic parts and support more domestic jobs than all of the foreign competitors combined.

Quote
From IHT.com

Toyota accounts for 9 percent of automotive manufacturing jobs in the United States and roughly 16 percent of the vehicle market, while GM accounts for 29 percent of the jobs and about 24 percent of the market, Doyle said. "We lose 10 for every one job that they bring," Doyle said.

Your implication that they also import a lot of their vehicles is also incorrect.
Quote
From IHT.com (same article)

And despite the start of Camry production in the United States, Toyota will still import 60,000 Camrys from Japan this year, Lentz said. Along with that, Toyota also expects to import about 70,000 more Priuses than in 2006, when it sold just under 107,000 in the United States.

Especially incorrect on the assumption that the good gas mileage vehicles are imported.

Quite the contrary, with General Motors, the Pontiac G5 and Chevy Cobalt are both assembled in Lordstown, Ohio. The Pontiac G6, in Orion, Michigan.

Yes, the Aveo is an exception.

I know more about GM products, that is why I generally use them as an example more often than not.

I will complain less and accept more just as soon as Japan and Korea open their markets up to us as freely as we have opened ours to them. Furthermore, the direct involvement of the Japanese government in devaluing the yen against the dollar to unfairly advantage Toyota and other Japanese manufacturers in this market needs to come to an end.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Lethlweapn on August 06, 2008, 03:23:08 PM
Keith,

I know that you sell GM cars for a living, so I would expect for you to defend to the bitter end your position.

My point is, if you think that just because you are buying a Ford, or GM, or whatever, doesn't mean it was made in the U.S., and just because you buy a Honda, or a Toyota doesn't mean it was made overseas.

If you buy a car based on where it was built and how much U.S. Content goes into your vehicle, you don't necessarily have to buy a car from the Big 3. Some cars built buy Toyota, and Honda, are made right here in the U.S. and have more U.S. parts in them than some of the vehicles built by the Big 3.

As far as protectionism goes I'd agree that I'd like to have their markets more open to our products, and I'd like for our government to stop the devaluation of the dollar.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 06, 2008, 03:27:19 PM
Hey LTW,

I can agree with you for the most part ... what you have said is largely true.

I would also like our dollar to gain value but at least the devaluation of our dollar hasn't been artificial to provide an unfair business advantage to our manufacturers. Maybe we should be doing that however.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Lethlweapn on August 06, 2008, 03:29:39 PM
Hey LTW,

I can agree with you for the most part ... what you have said is largely true.

I would also like our dollar to gain value but at least the devaluation of our dollar hasn't been artificial to provide an unfair business advantage to our manufacturers. Maybe we should be doing that however.

You MIGHT be right.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Stubborn on August 07, 2008, 12:51:24 AM
Honestly I have always been baffled by people having such strong opinons on the subject of 'American Made'. 

Does it classify as 'American Made' if the thing (auto or otherwise) is assembled in the US but owned by a foreigner and uses imported parts?

Does it classify as 'American Made' if it's owned by an American but assembled overseas and uses their local (to us foreign) parts?

Does it classify as 'American Made' if it uses American parts but is located overseas and uses their local (to us foreign) parts?

Our entire economy is based on a global system.  Given that there seems to be dissagreement among people as to what constitutes 'American Made', I think finding something (auto or otherwise) that is ENTIRELY American made is difficult at best.

I can't prove this but my theory is that because so many people want bigger/better/classier stuff but can't afford it(or live beyond their means), and the demand for cheaper products to fufil that is the primary drive in consumerism, I think that companies have outsourced so much to meet that demand.  But that is just my opinion, I can't point to fact or webpage to that effect.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: lordfly on August 07, 2008, 01:41:52 AM
Honestly I have always been baffled by people having such strong opinons on the subject of 'American Made'. 

Because nationalism trumps reasonable thinking.

Quote
I can't prove this but my theory is that because so many people want bigger/better/classier stuff but can't afford it(or live beyond their means), and the demand for cheaper products to fufil that is the primary drive in consumerism, I think that companies have outsourced so much to meet that demand.  But that is just my opinion, I can't point to fact or webpage to that effect.

That's the very definition of consumerism; buy as much stuff you can afford, then throw it away so you can buy more stuff.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: ChadB on August 07, 2008, 02:00:30 AM
I wonder when we'll see the vaunted, superior Hondas and Toyotas winning demolition derbys?

Clearly, they must be better than some beat up 20 year old Crown Vic, right? :D
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: lordfly on August 07, 2008, 02:59:23 AM
Anything with crumple zones is doomed. :P
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: shetalks on August 10, 2008, 06:14:03 PM
As we all know, America was created based on capitalism (competition). The only stuff we should buy are quality products at the lowest price. So, if Honda makes the best compact car now... we should buy one now. This gives incentive for competitors to create a better compact car to beat the competition. Its not any more complicated than that! Personally, my family consists of auto workers including Dodge, Ford, and GM.... but I personally CANNOT wait for the Honda water car to make its way here! If not, let's hope Ford, GM, or Dodge can keep up and create their own water engine!
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 10, 2008, 07:16:26 PM
As we all know, America was created based on capitalism (competition). The only stuff we should buy are quality products at the lowest price. So, if Honda makes the best compact car now... we should buy one now. This gives incentive for competitors to create a better compact car to beat the competition. Its not any more complicated than that! Personally, my family consists of auto workers including Dodge, Ford, and GM.... but I personally CANNOT wait for the Honda water car to make its way here! If not, let's hope Ford, GM, or Dodge can keep up and create their own water engine!


I haven't heard anything about this water car.

But keep in mind ... regardless of the type of engine (gas, water, hydrogen) the more we consume the higher the price will go. Water is relatively inexpensive now ... it wouldn't be if we all started driving vehicles powered with water engines.


***** edit:

I just searched for Honda Water Car and this is what I got.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/ (http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/)

It appears it is a hydrogen fuel cell. It's quite an interesting concept but the lack of available hydrogen refueling stations in most of this country at this time makes the vehicle functionally obsolete.

***** 2nd edit:

Here is a website dedicated to showing where H2 stations are located throughout the country.

http://www.netinform.net/H2/H2Stations/H2Stations.aspx?Continent=NA&StationID=-1 (http://www.netinform.net/H2/H2Stations/H2Stations.aspx?Continent=NA&StationID=-1)
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Lethlweapn on August 10, 2008, 07:55:14 PM
I haven't heard anything about this water car.

But keep in mind ... regardless of the type of engine (gas, water, hydrogen) the more we consume the higher the price will go. Water is relatively inexpensive now ... it wouldn't be if we all started driving vehicles powered with water engines.


***** edit:

I just searched for Honda Water Car and this is what I got.

[url]http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/[/url] ([url]http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/[/url])

It appears it is a hydrogen fuel cell. It's quite an interesting concept but the lack of available hydrogen refueling stations in most of this country at this time makes the vehicle functionally obsolete.

***** 2nd edit:

Here is a website dedicated to showing where H2 stations are located throughout the country.

[url]http://www.netinform.net/H2/H2Stations/H2Stations.aspx?Continent=NA&StationID=-1[/url] ([url]http://www.netinform.net/H2/H2Stations/H2Stations.aspx?Continent=NA&StationID=-1[/url])


The one I saw had a complete home energy center, it would produce all the electricity, heat and fuel for your car. It's a great concept. I hope they can pull it off.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 10, 2008, 08:07:31 PM
The one I saw had a complete home energy center, it would produce all the electricity, heat and fuel for your car. It's a great concept. I hope they can pull it off.


That is the vehicle I linked to, the Clarity. The electricity is prodcued by the hydrogen tank. You can go to the link and it'll explain the performance of the engine.

Again, at this point in time it would be functionally obsolete to bring this vehicle to most parts of the US. The vehicle will only go about 280 miles before needing refueling and the closest hydrogen refueling station I have been able to locate is in Taylor.

Hydrogen is an interesting technology that needs to be explored but as with the Chevy Volt I am afraid these vehicles may price themselves right out of the market.

The Honda Clarity is being leased (very minimally) in Souther California for $600/month.

Now, should Honda be able to pull off the Home Energy Station (see link below) I will be impressed.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/home-energy-station.aspx (http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/home-energy-station.aspx)
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: karen4851 on August 12, 2008, 02:59:26 AM
Nothing you buy is made in America,  why does your car have to be?

Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: eriemermaid on August 12, 2008, 07:44:07 AM
The American manufacturers, specifically GM and Ford .. are much closer to catching up then some think.



I am waiting for Ford.  For now I will drive the best there is for me. 
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: zard0z on August 12, 2008, 08:30:38 AM
Nothing you buy is made in America,  why does your car have to be?


That isn't necessarily true, there are a lot of American made products...You just have to look for them.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Lethlweapn on August 12, 2008, 08:37:31 AM

That isn't necessarily true, there are a lot of American made products...You just have to look for them.

Yep plenty of US made TV's, no wait, I mean computers, no wait, I mean cordless phones, no wait I mean.......
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: zard0z on August 12, 2008, 08:38:44 AM
That is the vehicle I linked to, the Clarity. The electricity is prodcued by the hydrogen tank. You can go to the link and it'll explain the performance of the engine.

Again, at this point in time it would be functionally obsolete to bring this vehicle to most parts of the US. The vehicle will only go about 280 miles before needing refueling and the closest hydrogen refueling station I have been able to locate is in Taylor.

Hydrogen is an interesting technology that needs to be explored but as with the Chevy Volt I am afraid these vehicles may price themselves right out of the market.

The Honda Clarity is being leased (very minimally) in Souther California for $600/month.

Now, should Honda be able to pull off the Home Energy Station (see link below) I will be impressed.

[url]http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/home-energy-station.aspx[/url] ([url]http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/home-energy-station.aspx[/url])



That home energy station is quite impressive, too bad it's Honda coming up with it...What ever happened to American ingenuity...?


But, $600/month for the car...That's more than I pay for rent... :P

Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: zard0z on August 12, 2008, 08:45:59 AM
Yep plenty of US made TV's, no wait, I mean computers, no wait, I mean cordless phones, no wait I mean.......



Here is a not so short list of American made products...It's categorized in alphabetical order.

http://www.usstuff.com/prodlist.htm
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: eriemermaid on August 12, 2008, 02:41:45 PM

Here is a not so short list of American made products...It's categorized in alphabetical order.

[url]http://www.usstuff.com/prodlist.htm[/url]


I went to purses to take a look, and most of them listed are made from imported products!
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Stubborn on August 12, 2008, 11:47:05 PM
As we all know, America was created based on capitalism (competition). The only stuff we should buy are quality products at the lowest price. So, if Honda makes the best compact car now... we should buy one now. This gives incentive for competitors to create a better compact car to beat the competition. Its not any more complicated than that!   

And that is exactly why our jobs get cut, shifted to foreigners overseas and so on.  Because people are more interested in getting things cheap rather than a quality product made with skilled workers.  I don't see how you can have both at the same time.  If it's quality it's going to cost more, if it's cheap someone has cut corners somewhere either at the expense of the worker, or the final product.

I know as I used to work for a supplier to the big 3 for a number of years.  All the jobs the company got they got because they were the lowest bidder and had the shortest deadline.  I can't tell you how many times we got told that bad parts were considered passed simply to make a deadline even though our line had not yet had the bugs worked out of it.  In my complaining that it was against the QC specs I got told by a lead, a supervisor and the dept head that I was going to pass it or lose my job because the receiving company could later sort out the bad ones and send them back, but that our company would have technically made the deadline.  I'm talking about major vehicle components that could cause a catastrophe if they were passed and put into production by the receiving company in the name of a deadline or price.  Attitudes like those are what take the joy out of pride of workmanship.

Do you still want cheaper and cheaper products?
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: katy scarlett on August 13, 2008, 12:14:43 AM
And that is exactly why our jobs get cut, shifted to foreigners overseas and so on.  Because people are more interested in getting things cheap rather than a quality product made with skilled workers.  I don't see how you can have both at the same time.  If it's quality it's going to cost more, if it's cheap someone has cut corners somewhere either at the expense of the worker, or the final product.

I know as I used to work for a supplier to the big 3 for a number of years.  All the jobs the company got they got because they were the lowest bidder and had the shortest deadline.  I can't tell you how many times we got told that bad parts were considered passed simply to make a deadline even though our line had not yet had the bugs worked out of it.  In my complaining that it was against the QC specs I got told by a lead, a supervisor and the dept head that I was going to pass it or lose my job because the receiving company could later sort out the bad ones and send them back, but that our company would have technically made the deadline.  I'm talking about major vehicle components that could cause a catastrophe if they were passed and put into production by the receiving company in the name of a deadline or price.  Attitudes like those are what take the joy out of pride of workmanship.

Do you still want cheaper and cheaper products?

That supplier obviously has no business sense. I have also worked for a tier 1 supplier, and for them quality was everything. If we had bad parts that got to the customer they flipped out! They always said it cost them too much $$ to have the parts shipped back (both in shippng costs themselves and reputation) If there was a deadline approaching and we had quality issues management, qc and maintenance worked their tails off to get the problem fixed and gave us overtime if necessary to get the parts out the door on time. Also, remember that for every year of a contract the supplier is given less for the parts regardless of risng raw material costs. For example if a supplier is given a contract for 4 years on an alternator, and when they sign the big 3 pays $35/piece, year 2 its $25/piece, etc. and they often won't renegotiate the contract.  That of course of course is automotive suppliers.........
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: T-M-T on August 13, 2008, 11:09:19 AM
And that is exactly why our jobs get cut, shifted to foreigners overseas and so on.  Because people are more interested in getting things cheap rather than a quality product made with skilled workers.  I don't see how you can have both at the same time.  If it's quality it's going to cost more, if it's cheap someone has cut corners somewhere either at the expense of the worker, or the final product.

Do you still want cheaper and cheaper products?

How do you explain Lexus then?  They're certainly not cheap and the quality is exceptional.  Does that mean the Japanese workers at Lexus are more highly skilled than American workers?
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 13, 2008, 12:46:55 PM

That home energy station is quite impressive, too bad it's Honda coming up with it...What ever happened to American ingenuity...?


But, $600/month for the car...That's more than I pay for rent... :P



Don't kid yoruself ... ever car manufacturer is working on this technology .. there is currently an event featuring hydrogen powered vehicles (from many manufacturers) that are being driven across the country.

In terms of the home energy station I am sure Honda isn't the only one working on it. Honda, is however, more adaptable to reaching the consumer on that level .. they make small engines for mowers, etc. They're branded across a wide array of products/services.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 13, 2008, 12:52:07 PM
How do you explain Lexus then?  They're certainly not cheap and the quality is exceptional.  Does that mean the Japanese workers at Lexus are more highly skilled than American workers?

Quality is a word that is tossed around a lot and not fully understood. According to the 2008 JD Power and Associates Initial Quality Survey Lexus has 99 problems per 100 vehicles (or .99 problems per vehicle) while Merucry has 104 (or 1.04 per vehicle), Ford had 109 (or 1.09 per vehicle), and Cadillac and Chevrolet had 113 (or 1.13). These are statistical anomalies and are further proof that American cars are essentially caught up with other manufacturers.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: the nosh on August 13, 2008, 01:14:01 PM
if it says ford...i will buy it.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: lordfly on August 13, 2008, 01:44:16 PM
Yep plenty of US made TV's, no wait, I mean computers, no wait, I mean cordless phones, no wait I mean.......

The US is still a leader in producing non-consumer products. Industrial stuff... machines, engines, gadgets etc.

Our 12 trillion in GDP comes from somewhere. :)
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: lordfly on August 13, 2008, 01:44:37 PM
if it says ford...i will buy it.

Edsel?

Pinto?

:P
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: the nosh on August 13, 2008, 02:59:08 PM
Edsel?

Pinto?

:P






sure...bring one over...the edsel was a wonderful car.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: forever39 on August 13, 2008, 03:11:21 PM

My brother-in-law has a Lexus that still looks like new - very low miles as it is their 2nd car.  He has tried to trade it, sell it, etc., and cannot get even blue book for it.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Dadof7 on August 13, 2008, 03:35:44 PM
My brother-in-law has a Lexus that still looks like new - very low miles as it is their 2nd car.  He has tried to trade it, sell it, etc., and cannot get even blue book for it.

Have him run it in next years derby to make Squonk happy.

 :o
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: forever39 on August 13, 2008, 05:24:59 PM

I'll suggest it, and he might even consider it! lol
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: muzikjunkie on August 14, 2008, 03:24:37 PM
I absolutely cannot STAND seeing those bumper stickers that read "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign!" I'm sorry, but nowadays, rarely anything is 100% American-made product. Sure, you bought a Ford car, but the engine is most likely from Europe, and most of the cars are made in Japan or China. Almost every shirt on your back says "Made in China." Same with your kids' toys. I support having more American businesses, but c'mon. It'll take a LONG time for that to happen.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Keith_G on August 14, 2008, 05:44:48 PM
I absolutely cannot STAND seeing those bumper stickers that read "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign!" I'm sorry, but nowadays, rarely anything is 100% American-made product. Sure, you bought a Ford car, but the engine is most likely from Europe, and most of the cars are made in Japan or China. Almost every shirt on your back says "Made in China." Same with your kids' toys. I support having more American businesses, but c'mon. It'll take a LONG time for that to happen.

mmmmmmmmm .... most American cars use American parts .. a majority of the parts anyway.

I think the point your making points more to globalization and this is true corporations are global anymore. It's the profit centers you need to pay particular attention to. Toyota, Honda, Sony, etc. sell products here ... well most of the money goes back to where ............
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: the nosh on August 15, 2008, 08:27:17 PM
mmmmmmmmm .... most American cars use American parts .. a majority of the parts anyway.

I think the point your making points more to globalization and this is true corporations are global anymore. It's the profit centers you need to pay particular attention to. Toyota, Honda, Sony, etc. sell products here ... well most of the money goes back to where ............





you gotta forgive the youth of today keithie!! someday when the usa is totally owned by foreign countries...they might understand.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: muzikjunkie on August 15, 2008, 11:51:59 PM
Edsel?

Pinto?

:P

Yeah...and look what happened with the Pinto...(insert explosion here)
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: zard0z on August 16, 2008, 12:01:25 AM
Yeah...and look what happened with the Pinto...(insert explosion here)


Media hyped fear... *:)

I used to own one...No more dangerous than a Honda Civic(small light weight car in the time that most people were driving mega sedans)... :P
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: eriemermaid on August 16, 2008, 06:32:07 AM
 Published on Monday, February 27, 2006 by CommonDreams.org 
When Americans No Longer Own America 
by Thom Hartmann
 
The Dubai Ports World deal is waking Americans up to a painful reality: So-called "conservatives" and "flat world" globalists have bankrupted our nation for their own bag of silver, and in the process are selling off America.

Through a combination of the "Fast Track" authority pushed for by Reagan and GHW Bush, sweetheart trade deals involving "most favored nation status" for dictatorships like China, and Clinton pushing us into NAFTA and the WTO (via GATT), we've abandoned the principles of tariff-based trade that built American industry and kept us strong for over 200 years.

The old concept was that if there was a dollar's worth of labor in a pair of shoes made in the USA, and somebody wanted to import shoes from China where there may only be ten cents worth of labor in those shoes, we'd level the playing field for labor by putting a 90-cent import tariff on each pair of shoes. Companies could choose to make their products here or overseas, but the ultimate cost of labor would be the same.

Then came the flat-worlders, led by misguided true believers and promoted by multinational corporations. Do away with those tariffs, they said, because they "restrain trade." Let everything in, and tax nothing. The result has been an explosion of cheap goods coming into our nation, and the loss of millions of good manufacturing jobs and thousands of manufacturing companies. Entire industry sectors have been wiped out.

These policies have kneecapped the American middle class. Our nation's largest employer has gone from being the unionized General Motors to the poverty-wages Wal-Mart. Americans have gone from having a net savings rate around 10 percent in the 1970s to a minus .5 percent in 2005 - meaning that they're going into debt or selling off their assets just to maintain their lifestyle.

At the same time, federal policy has been to do the same thing at a national level. Because our so-called "free trade" policies have left us with an over $700 billion annual trade deficit, other countries are sitting on huge piles of the dollars we gave them to buy their stuff (via Wal-Mart and other "low cost" retailers). But we no longer manufacture anything they want to buy with those dollars.

So instead of buying our manufactured goods, they are doing what we used to do with Third World nations - they are buying us, the USA, chunk by chunk. In particular, they want to buy things in America that will continue to produce profits, and then to take those profits overseas where they're invested to make other nations strong. The "things" they're buying are, by and large, corporations, utilities, and natural resources.

Back in the pre-Reagan days, American companies made profits that were distributed among Americans. They used their profits to build more factories, or diversify into other businesses. The profits stayed in America.

Today, foreigners awash with our consumer dollars are on a two-decades-long buying spree. The UK's BP bought Amoco for $48 billion - now Amoco's profits go to England. Deutsche Telekom bought VoiceStream Wireless, so their profits go to Germany, which is where most of the profits from Random House, Allied Signal, Chrysler, Doubleday, Cyprus Amax's US Coal Mining Operations, GTE/Sylvania, and Westinghouse's Power Generation profits go as well. Ralston Purina's profits go to Switzerland, along with Gerber's; TransAmerica's profits go to The Netherlands, while John Hancock Insurance's profits go to Canada. Even American Bankers Insurance Group is owned now by Fortis AG in Belgium.

Foreign companies are buying up our water systems, our power generating systems, our mines, and our few remaining factories. All because "flat world" so-called "free trade" policies have turned us from a nation of wealthy producers into a nation of indebted consumers, leaving the world awash in dollars that are most easily used to buy off big chunks of America. As www.economyincrisis.com notes, US Government statistics indicate the following percentages of foreign ownership of American industry:

· Sound recording industries - 97%
· Commodity contracts dealing and brokerage - 79%
· Motion picture and sound recording industries - 75%
· Metal ore mining - 65%
· Motion picture and video industries - 64%
· Wineries and distilleries - 64%
· Database, directory, and other publishers - 63%
· Book publishers - 63%
· Cement, concrete, lime, and gypsum product - 62%
· Engine, turbine and power transmission equipment - 57%
· Rubber product - 53%
· Nonmetallic mineral product manufacturing - 53%
· Plastics and rubber products manufacturing - 52%
· Plastics product - 51%
· Other insurance related activities - 51%
· Boiler, tank, and shipping container - 50%
· Glass and glass product - 48%
· Coal mining - 48%
· Sugar and confectionery product - 48%
· Nonmetallic mineral mining and quarrying - 47%
· Advertising and related services - 41%
· Pharmaceutical and medicine - 40%
· Clay, refractory, and other nonmetallic mineral products - 40%
· Securities brokerage - 38%
· Other general purpose machinery - 37%
· Audio and video equipment mfg and reproducing magnetic and optical media - 36%
· Support activities for mining - 36%
· Soap, cleaning compound, and toilet preparation - 32%
· Chemical manufacturing - 30%
· Industrial machinery - 30%
· Securities, commodity contracts, and other financial investments and related activities - 30%
· Other food - 29%
· Motor vehicles and parts - 29%
· Machinery manufacturing - 28%
· Other electrical equipment and component - 28%
· Securities and commodity exchanges and other financial investment activities - 27%
· Architectural, engineering, and related services - 26%
· Credit card issuing and other consumer credit - 26%
· Petroleum refineries (including integrated) - 25%
· Navigational, measuring, electromedical, and control instruments - 25%
· Petroleum and coal products manufacturing - 25%
· Transportation equipment manufacturing - 25%
· Commercial and service industry machinery - 25%
· Basic chemical - 24%
· Investment banking and securities dealing - 24%
· Semiconductor and other electronic component - 23%
· Paint, coating, and adhesive - 22%
· Printing and related support activities - 21%
· Chemical product and preparation - 20%
· Iron, steel mills, and steel products - 20%
· Agriculture, construction, and mining machinery - 20%
· Publishing industries - 20%
· Medical equipment and supplies - 20%
Thus it shouldn't surprise us that the cons have sold off our ports as well, and will defend it to the bitter end. They truly believe that a "New World Order" with multinational corporations in charge instead of sovereign governments will be the answer to the problem of world instability. And therefore they must do away with quaint things like unions, a healthy middle class, and, ultimately, democracy.

The "security" implications of turning our ports over to the UAE are just the latest nail in what the cons hope will be the coffin of American democracy and the American middle class. Today's conservatives believe in rule by inherited wealth and an internationalist corporate elite, and things like a politically aroused citizenry and a healthy democracy are pesky distractions.

Everything today is driven by profits for multinationals, supported by the lawmaking power of the WTO. Thus, parts for our missiles are now made in China, a country that last year threatened us with nuclear weapons. Our oil comes from a country that birthed a Wahabist movement that ultimately led to 14 Saudi citizens flying jetliners into the World Trade buildings and the Pentagon. Germans now own the Chrysler auto assembly lines that turned out tanks to use against Germany in WWII. And the price of labor in America is being held down by over ten million illegal workers, a situation that was impossible twenty-five years ago when unions were the first bulwark against dilution of the American labor force.

When Thomas Jefferson wrote of King George III in the Declaration of Independence, "He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitutions and unacknowledged by our laws, giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation…" he just as easily could have been writing of the World Trade Organization, which now has the legal authority to force the United States to overturn laws passed at both local, state, and federal levels with dictates devised by tribunals made up of representatives of multinational corporations. If Dubai loses in the American Congress, their next stop will almost certainly be the WTO.

As Simon Romero and Heather Timmons noted in The New York Times on 24 February 2006, "the international shipping business has evolved in recent years to include many more containers with consumer goods, in addition to old-fashioned bulk commodities, and that has helped lift profit margins to 30 percent, from the single digits. These smartly managed foreign operators now manage about 80 percent of port terminals in the United States."

And those 30 percent profits from American port operations now going to Great Britain will probably soon go to the United Arab Emirates, a nation with tight interconnections to both the Bush administration and the Bush family.

Ultimately, it's not about security -- it's about money. In the multinational corporatocracy's "flat world," money trumps the national good, community concerns, labor interests, and the environment. NAFTA, CAFTA, and WTO tribunals can - and regularly do - strike down local and national laws. Thomas Paine's "Rights of Man" are replaced by Antonin Scalia's "Rights of Corporate Persons."

Profits even trump the desire for good enough port security to avoid disasters that may lead to war. After all, as Judith Miller wrote in The New York Times on January 30, 1991, quoting a local in Saudi Arabia: "War is good for business."

Thom Hartmann is a Project Censored Award-winning best-selling author of over a dozen books and the host of a nationally syndicated noon-3pm ET daily progressive talk show syndicated by Air America Radio. www.thomhartmann.com His most recent books are "What Would Jefferson Do?" and Ultimate Sacrifice.
 
 
 
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: eriemermaid on August 16, 2008, 06:33:05 AM
I don't think I ever did a copy and paste like this, but I thought it was appropriate for this thread.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: the nosh on August 16, 2008, 07:53:48 AM
I don't think I ever did a copy and paste like this, but I thought it was appropriate for this thread.





so you think that having a president with the name of hussein obama who basically grew up in a muslim country will change all that? think again!
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: mama1 on August 16, 2008, 01:35:36 PM
I used to work at a daycare that was specifically for Ford and Visteon employees.  It was made clear that if you did not drive an American made car, you were to park in the back lot and walk from the back to the front.  Under no circumstances were you to park your non-American car in the front lot.  Thanksfully, I drove a Ford!
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: ChadB on August 16, 2008, 03:22:55 PM




sure...bring one over...the edsel was a wonderful car.

Right on, Nosh...The Edsel WAS a great car, ahead of it's time. Still see a few of them running around, too. I know my shop teacher in high school drove a '58 Edsel Ranger every day.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Kazimer on August 16, 2008, 04:29:46 PM

sure...bring one over...the edsel was a wonderful car.

Right on, Nosh...The Edsel WAS a great car, ahead of it's time. Still see a few of them running around, too. I know my shop teacher in high school drove a '58 Edsel Ranger every day.

nosh and Squonk you guys are both right about the Edsel.

My dad owned one when they first came out.

He said he had a few minor problems with it and once those things were fixed the car ran great.

I remember my dad talking about the push button transmission and  saying  The Edsel was just ahead of its time.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: eriemermaid on August 16, 2008, 05:21:56 PM




so you think that having a president with the name of hussein obama who basically grew up in a muslim country will change all that? think again!

This was written in 2006.  No, I don't think obama is the man to change ANYTHING for the better.  I think he grew up in Hawaii, didn't he?  I'm not for sure, but I think I read that.  When I read the article I posted, I read that Americans do not own very much of America. 
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: Frenchfry on August 16, 2008, 08:07:02 PM
I don't think I ever did a copy and paste like this, but I thought it was appropriate for this thread.



I enjoyed it and it made me think of what I saw on PBS last month:

BILL MOYERS: Years ago, you write, "On Washington's birthday, a freshman senator would read the farewell address at 12 o'clock noon and then we'd have votes in the afternoon."

FRITZ HOLLINGS: We'd have votes. Now we have merged Lincoln's birthday with Washington's Birthday and take ten days off in February for fundraising. We have St. Patrick's Day, ten day break for fundraising. Easter, Memorial Day, Fourth of July, the month of August, Labor Day, Yom Kippur and Columbus Day that's ten days gone in October. September, October, is fundraising. Everything is attuned for the campaign, the hell with the country.

BILL MOYERS: A constant permanent campaign.

FRITZ HOLLINGS: That's exactly what it is.

BILL MOYERS: Commercial television is the big winner in this because that's where so much of the money goes.

FRITZ HOLLINGS: That's right; the rich have got all the speech they want. The poor got lockjaw. He can't articulate out onto the television. And-

BILL MOYERS: The poor can't. They have no voice.

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Yeah, and that's the trouble. They tell you, don't go waste time and don't go see people and everything. Get on television and get a little tricky television and everything else like that. All these artists have got all kinds of different ways and different things like that to bring up and tricks to play.

BILL MOYERS: The clear message is money has a stranglehold on our democracy.

FRITZ HOLLINGS: You gotta untie that money knot and then begin the government will begin to work.

BILL MOYERS: So, you conclude therefore, if we limit the money, Congress will have time to work for the country, rather than--

FRITZ HOLLINGS: The campaign. That's exactly right. They can talk to each other, they can deliberate. There's no, you fill up the tree with amendments; the leaders know-- legislation is made down on K Street. They tell you when to vote, when they got the votes.

BILL MOYERS: Lobbyists.

FRITZ HOLLINGS: The leader brings it up, he knows where it's going. And it's not going anywhere, but he's goin' to get a vote, to make 'em embarrassed about immigration, or about energy or about sub-prime mortgages. The votes are made for the campaign. It's not to get anything done, bah humbug. You can forget about that. They're not doing anything up here. And the senators and congressmen know it.

BILL MOYERS: What do you make of the fact, as you point out in your book, three days before the first presidential primary in Iowa; The New York Times listed the positions of all the candidates on eight important issues. Not one of them on trade or outsourcing of jobs.

FRITZ HOLLINGS: That's right. And they came way out. We had, in South Carolina, since President George W. Bush has been in; we have lost 94,500 manufacturing a net loss. We're getting' some more jobs in BMW in Spartanburg, but a net loss. And they never mentioned it in the early Democratic primaries. They're-

BILL MOYERS: Why?

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Because they gotta get the money.

BILL MOYERS: And who gives them the money?

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Wall Street, the banks, and business BILL MOYERS Yeah, you say presidents negotiate trade agreements not to open markets, but to protect corporate America's foreign investment. That's how you see it.

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Well, I know it. I mean look at the Congress. Under article one, section 8, the Congress shall regulate. Not free-

BILL MOYERS: Regulate--

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Congress regulates trade both domestic and foreign.

BILL MOYERS: And you say in your book that Congress is not doing that.

FRITZ HOLLINGS: They can't do it because they've gotta get the money. You put in a trade bill and down on your head comes THE WALL STREET JOURNAL and the big banks and The Business Round Table and The National Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufactures they're not for domestic. They're for Chinese and Indian manufacturer even The National Chamber of Commerce is not worried about Main Street, Peoria, Illinois; Main Street, Shanghai.

You see, Henry Ford built up the middle class along with organized labor. He said I want the fellow making the car to be able to buy the car. So, he doubled the minimum wage. He put in health care and retirement costs and everything else of that kind, benefits. And so we had a good working relationship between labor and that-- now, all of these trade agreements for the investors to protect their investment in China and India, but, uh-uh forget about labor.

BILL MOYERS: You write--

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Yeah.

BILL MOYERS: Your country and mine, that's the United States of America, is going out of business?

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Oh yeah. What hasn't been outsourced is being bought with that cheap dollar. Vodophone is gone to the Germans. Bell Labs is gone to the French with all their research and everything else. Westinghouse Nuclear with all of their research and technology and everything, is going to Toshiba, Japan. And Anheuser-Busch, the Belgians. Anheuser-Busch is beholden to the stockholders but nobody's beholden to the people other than the congressmen and senators. And they're not doing their job.

BILL MOYERS: But they're voting for NAFTA. They're voting for these trade agreements.

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Yeah, we've gone to an outright trade war and globalization and that's were we're AWOL. The way to get free trade is raise a barrier to a barrier and remove them both. Then you got free trade.

BILL MOYERS: But when you were chairman of this very powerful Commerce Committee, here in the Senate, you'd make these cases.

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Yeah.

BILL MOYERS: They would call you protectionist, they would call you--

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Yeah, I am a protectionist. You-- you got Social Security to protect you from the ravages of old age, Medicare to protect you from ill health. You got food and drugs and clean air, the water we drink, the food we eat, antitrust to protect the openness of the market and everything else. Before I open up Moyer Manufactory, you gotta have clean air, clean water, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, plant closing notice, parental leave, safe working place, safe machinery, antitrust. You can go to China for 58 cents an hour. They'd get you the plant, they own the workers, and you don't have any investments so you don't have to worry about it.

BILL MOYERS: You say all we need to do to make the country work, is follow the lead of the forefathers to compete in globalization. To build the country's economy Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, and Madison, made sure the first bill to pass the Congress in its history on July 4th 1789--

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Seventeen eighty nine.

BILL MOYERS: Was a--

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Protectionist bill, tariff bill on 60 articles. We financed the country's development with tariffs. That's how we--that's the Treasurer's Building is the best building here in Washington. The best building in Charleston is the custom house. The best building in Brooklyn is the custom house. Treasury had the money. Teddy Roosevelt said, "Thank God I am not a free trader." Oh, Lincoln, everybody says, I'm either for Roosevelt, I'm a Lincoln Republican. He was a big protectionist. Oh, he raised tariffs. They were gonna build a transcontinental railroad on the Abraham Lincoln. And they said we could get the steel cheap from England. He said, ah - wait a minute, we're gonna build our own steel mills, and then we'll have not only a steel capacity, but we'll have the railroad. And so he was a builder. Everybody was a builder. Eisenhower, he protected oil. Jack Kennedy, I went to him, and he protected textiles. Ronald Reagan, he protected computers and Harley Davidson. He saved it. I saw George W. the other day about three weeks or a month ago, he was at the Harley Davidson plant, but protectionism saved it. That's why they were making money at Harley Davidson. Oh, he got--

BILL MOYERS: That's because of--

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Voluntarily restraint. Reagan got on steel, computers, machine tools, and automobiles. He got voluntary restraint and that's the only way to do it. Sober up

BILL MOYERS: Do you take any hope on this issue on money in politics? From McCain and Obama? Are they saying anything that or doing anything that--

FRITZ HOLLINGS: I happened to hear and I don't know, but the finance chairman for Obama was just told to get up 300 million for the rest of the campaign till November. Also, get up millions for the Denver convention. And that's all they're doing is raising money.

BILL MOYERS: You and John McCain sat on the same committee. You were chairman of the Commerce Committee--

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Oh yeah

BILL MOYERS: He was a member of the committee--

FRITZ HOLLINGS: We were good friends. And I love him.

BILL MOYERS: And how does he--

FRITZ HOLLINGS: I know him, yeah.

BILL MOYERS: And he used to be thought of as being an advocate of campaign finance reform.

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Exactly right. And he was an advocate against these tax cuts. But now they've taken the maverick McCain and trying to make him the Christian right and the money raiser and everything else like that. They're trying to make him an ordinary Republican. And you can tell he's ill at ease. He, John McCain is not happy campaigning right now. I can tell you that. He's-- the media loves him. He had a room up there by the commerce committee with donuts and coffee and all and the press wouldn't go to the press gallery. They'd go to McCain because they could get a statement out of him. And he was honest. He'd tell you how he felt. So, the press loves him and everything else. But they're disappointed in him now, because they're trying to change him over to qualify him as a Republican.

BILL MOYERS: What would you do about the power of the press in our society today?

FRITZ HOLLINGS: Tell them that by gosh, tell the truth. You know the debate between Walter Lippman and John Dewey. And Walter Lippman said, what we oughta do is get the experts in finance and defense, and education and the various elements of government, and let them determine the company's the country's needs, and give it to the Congress and let 'em pass it. John Dewey, the educator said, no, no, let the free press report the truth to the American people and the needs will be reflected, to the congressmen and senators in Washington. And he was right. But they're not telling the truth anymore. They all were doing the headlines rather than headway. They're all getting by with perceptions; they're all getting by with pollster politics. They're not talking about the needs. The country is ready, willing, and able to work, the government's not working.

BILL MOYERS: And the book is, MAKING GOVERNMENT WORK. Senator Fritz Hollings, it's been good to see you again.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07252008/transcript4.html
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: the nosh on August 17, 2008, 10:04:06 AM
This was written in 2006.  No, I don't think obama is the man to change ANYTHING for the better.  I think he grew up in Hawaii, didn't he?  I'm not for sure, but I think I read that.  When I read the article I posted, I read that Americans do not own very much of America. 




i think he was born in hawaii...then moved to indonesia i think and spent alot of time there in his younger years. too bad that wasnt turned around.
Title: Re: Buy American or You're Fired!
Post by: eriemermaid on August 17, 2008, 05:14:09 PM
I guess you can't help where your mom drags you!  :P