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[Sojourner]

Well Sojo it makes me feel so much better to know that I'm part of a big fairy tale.  Please...if your God knows everything that's going to happen, then why can't he just end all suffering?  This is real life here buddy, not a story.  It seems to me if he was as loving and compassionate as you say he is, he'd give a little more.  What about all the child pornographers out there?  Huh?  He cares enough about the kids to make them suffer through unspeakable terrors and then grants them mercy when they die.  Yeah, sounds just like the type of God I want to worship.  "Listen, I'm going to put you through a lot of crap, but if you worship me then I'll kill you and you can come to heaven.  Oh one more thing if you don't worship me, then I'm sending you to Hell which will make getting raped feel like a walk in the park.  Another thing I'm going to do is not show up for a very long time so you have to question you faith.  Yeah you heard me right.  I'm not coming around and you still have to worship me or else that getting raped thing is nothing compaired to the punishment you'll get when my ex-BFF Satan get's a hold of you."

Seriously though, if he's going to end all the suffering eventually why not now?  Let's get this over with and move on to the next phase of the design. 

I see what you're saying and it seems logical from the standpoint of human reasoning, but again, we are men and see with the eyes of man. I suppose it is natural for a man who has not had a revelation of who God is and His love to question His goodness, as this world seems to strongly contradict He is loving.

I've said, at times, that if there was no God I'd curse the mindless processes that made us, as they would be the most cruel of all things, but I know that my ending shall not be forever terrible. The greatest test of life for the man who has seen God at one time is to continue to believe God, for God will allow everything around us to preach it was a lie or a delusion. I have had times where I truly began to doubt God and show Him disrespect and strongly question Him, but everytime after I end up in tears, because He reveals Himself to me, and I have to say, "Lord, forgive me, for in ignorance I questioned you."

God flat out allowed Job to suffer, telling Lucifer to his face that he could afflict Job and kill his family, and I'm sure Job began to question if this God who revealed Himself to him in times of old was really loving. In Job's torment he cried out and questioned, but in the end God revealed Himself to Job, and Job said,

Then Job answered the LORD and said: “I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’ “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”

Shaggy, I'm not kidding you when I say I am absolutely confident that the God of the Bible is a reality, and I know for a fact that we will all stand before Him, rather bow. His invitation to be counted among His blessed goes throughout all the earth and whoever receives His invitation will live forever in His goodness.

[PXaiver]

I see what you're saying and it seems logical from the standpoint of human reasoning, but again, we are men and see with the eyes of man. I suppose it is natural for a man who has not had a revelation of who God is and His love to question His goodness, as this world seems to strongly contradict He is loving.

I've said, at times, that if there was no God I'd curse the mindless processes that made us, as they would be the most cruel of all things, but I know that my ending shall not be forever terrible. The greatest test of life for the man who has seen God at one time is to continue to believe God, for God will allow everything around us to preach it was a lie or a delusion. I have had times where I truly began to doubt God and show Him disrespect and strongly question Him, but everytime after I end up in tears, because He reveals Himself to me, and I have to say, "Lord, forgive me, for in ignorance I questioned you."

God flat out allowed Job to suffer, telling Lucifer to his face that he could afflict Job and kill his family, and I'm sure Job began to question if this God who revealed Himself to him in times of old was really loving. In Job's torment he cried out and questioned, but in the end God revealed Himself to Job, and Job said,

Then Job answered the LORD and said: “I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’ “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”

Shaggy, I'm not kidding you when I say I am absolutely confident that the God of the Bible is a reality, and I know for a fact that we will all stand before Him, rather bow. His invitation to be counted among His blessed goes throughout all the earth and whoever receives His invitation will live forever in His goodness.

Ok but here's the thing.  The logic that you have been arguing with basically states that there is no free will.  God has control over everything and knows exactly what you're going to do.  So by that I could walk into a shopping mall and start firing rounds.  When the police came to pick me up I can just tell them that God had this in his plan and I didn't have a choice in my actions.  So this also negates any reason to get "saved".  God knows if he's going to let you choose to be saved.  Free will is null and void by what you've been arguing.  I'll tell you this right now.  If your god is the right one, then I'd rather have mindless happenstance create me.  I'm sorry but your god is a Sadist on a cosmic level.  Hell I don't even think that Galactus would be as cruel and decietful as your god.  The more and more I hear your Christian rhetoric the more and more I'm thinking Satan got a raw deal.  Afterall the guy couldn't help but challenge God.  God knew it was going to happen, and didn't even try to stop it.  Instead there was a war and Satan was condemned to Hell.  Believe it or not I'm actually thinking about becoming a Satanist now because I feel so bad for the poor guy.  He was just a pawn in this massive cosmic story........

[Sojourner]

Ok but here's the thing.  The logic that you have been arguing with basically states that there is no free will.  God has control over everything and knows exactly what you're going to do.  So by that I could walk into a shopping mall and start firing rounds.  When the police came to pick me up I can just tell them that God had this in his plan and I didn't have a choice in my actions.  So this also negates any reason to get "saved".  God knows if he's going to let you choose to be saved.  Free will is null and void by what you've been arguing.  I'll tell you this right now.  If your god is the right one, then I'd rather have mindless happenstance create me.  I'm sorry but your god is a Sadist on a cosmic level.  Hell I don't even think that Galactus would be as cruel and decietful as your god.  The more and more I hear your Christian rhetoric the more and more I'm thinking Satan got a raw deal.  Afterall the guy couldn't help but challenge God.  God knew it was going to happen, and didn't even try to stop it.  Instead there was a war and Satan was condemned to Hell.  Believe it or not I'm actually thinking about becoming a Satanist now because I feel so bad for the poor guy.  He was just a pawn in this massive cosmic story........

Again, I believe we have free will, but not as much as we think we do. I've already explained that pretty clearly, I think. And I bet you won't go fire rounds in the name of God, as only insane people do that, and insanity is a tragic result of the fallen creation. May God have mercy on those who have done evil due to insanity, and I trust He will. Life is a terrible tragedy, but no matter what, even through madness, God will bring His own into everlasting life.

And if you knew Lucifer you wouldn't pity him. He is pure wickedness and such wickedness has its rightful place in destruction.

Life is unquestionably a tragedy and it was either made by mindless matter, or it was made by a God who allows evil and creates beings who can do evil. I am confident of God. We can choose to accept His invitation into life or trust in nothing and perish. The call goes out and His beloved will come to Him, but the wicked will perish and when it's all said and done God will be proved Just in all His doings, and not one law will find fault with Him.

As the great mystery reads, "God hides his power in weakness, his wisdom in folly, his goodness in severity, his justice in sins, his mercy in anger. In His own world He is content to play a losing game."

[Mike Ingels]

Hey, can I throw a framework out there so everyone can poke holes in it?  My thoughts on all of this are a constant work in progress, but here is what I think currently:

I think that God created people so that he might be loved.  It must be incredibly lonely to be the omnipotent ruler of the universe with no one else to share it with.  Of course, it is difficult to truly love another without there being some kind of equivalent relationship.  So, our divinity was the necessary piece to ensure that we can legitimately have a choice to love or not to love.

I think that God is relatively distant so as to give us meaningful free will.  If God is as great as people imagine, his constant, every-day presence in the world would make our abilty to choose or reject him  moot.

But I think that God works in the world mostly through the divine that is in each human.  Of course, the problem of a relatively distant God is that the framework for this distance - the earth/universe - creates the possibility of natural disaster.  And free will makes evil possible.

The traditional line of attack against my line of thinking is the problem of evil.  How can a loving God allow evil to happen?

But I'd respond that the converse to the problem of evil is the possibility of good.  We certainly have evil.  But we also have tremendous good that would not be possible if we were simply automatons without the capability of loving and doing tremendous things.

Any response?

[Sojourner]

No one fully knows the mystery of free will, and it's just that, a mystery. I do believe we have free will, and quite a bit of it, but in the most important of things, I believe God works upon the will in such a way as to accomplish His will.

Remember in the book of Judges when it said:

After Abimelech had reigned over Israel three years, God sent a spirit of ill will between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech, that the crime done to the seventy sons of Jerubbaal might be settled and their blood be laid on Abimelech their brother, who killed them, and on the men of Shechem, who aided him in the killing of his brothers. - Judges 9

GOD sent the spirit. The men of Shechem had no idea God was behind what they willfully did.

Another very interesting passage shows God's working the will of man without man's knowing.

Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.” 1 Kings 22

And guess what, Ahab went up to Ramoth Gilead and died.

Did Ahab know God was allowing a spirit to work on the minds and wills of the prophet? No. Not at all. This shows Ahab did have a will of his own, but God accomplished HIS purpose by moving the will of Ahab as He so pleased.

We have free will to a degree, but God WILL get His ultimate will done and He has countless ways to move our will to do so.

[Boudica]

Sojourner,

You're just creepy. Makes me want to get the hell out of this town to tell you the truth. You seem to think Obama was appointed by God?

I'll throw this back at you from your beloved Book of Revelations: Mark of the Beast. A time will come when an anti-Christ will arise and fool the world into believing He is the long awaited Savior.

That time will be the beginning of the end.

Oh, hey. That's just a paraphrase, though! I'm not inclined to search out the exact verse that predicts the rise of the Anti-Christ.

I'm not as obsessed as you and some of the other fundies on this site.

You religious fundies scare me as much, if not more, than the radical Islamists that purport to be spreading 'The Word' to the rest of us.

Bottom line for me is this: Any religious fanatics trying to force their own beliefs on other people are all equally dangerous. I don't care if you call it Christian, or Islam.

Seriously, Sojourner, take your doomsday crap to some religious board...a board that is dedicated to radical fundies of any persuasion, please.

Not all of us here appreciate, much less respect, what you feel is your right to impose your religious zealotry on the rest of us.

[PXaiver]

Again, I believe we have free will, but not as much as we think we do. I've already explained that pretty clearly, I think. And I bet you won't go fire rounds in the name of God, as only insane people do that, and insanity is a tragic result of the fallen creation. May God have mercy on those who have done evil due to insanity, and I trust He will. Life is a terrible tragedy, but no matter what, even through madness, God will bring His own into everlasting life.

And if you knew Lucifer you wouldn't pity him. He is pure wickedness and such wickedness has its rightful place in destruction.

Life is unquestionably a tragedy and it was either made by mindless matter, or it was made by a God who allows evil and creates beings who can do evil. I am confident of God. We can choose to accept His invitation into life or trust in nothing and perish. The call goes out and His beloved will come to Him, but the wicked will perish and when it's all said and done God will be proved Just in all His doings, and not one law will find fault with Him.

As the great mystery reads, "God hides his power in weakness, his wisdom in folly, his goodness in severity, his justice in sins, his mercy in anger. In His own world He is content to play a losing game."

Well since Satan is the ultimate deciever, what better way to decieve than create a book and label it the word of god?  Seriously Sojo, do you actually believe what you type?  If there is a Satan I would choose him in a heartbeat over the sadistic god you worship.  Afterall, God knew that Satan would turn on him right?   He didn't stop it.  He didn't sit down and have a talk with the guy and explain things.  Nope he turned his back on one of his creations not to mention all the angels that "fell".

First you say we don't have free will, then you do.  Which is it?  The way I see it, you either have TOTAL free will or none at all.

[Sojourner]

Sojourner,

You're just creepy. Makes me want to get the hell out of this town to tell you the truth. You seem to think Obama was appointed by God?

You religious fundies scare me as much, if not more, than the radical Islamists that purport to be spreading 'The Word' to the rest of us.

Bottom line for me is this: Any religious fanatics trying to force their own beliefs on other people are all equally dangerous. I don't care if you call it Christian, or Islam.

Seriously, Sojourner, take your doomsday crap to some religious board...a board that is dedicated to radical fundies of any persuasion, please.

Not all of us here appreciate, much less respect, what you feel is your right to impose your religious zealotry on the rest of us.

I am in the Religion thread and you come into it telling me to go to a Religion forum. Why not just ignore my posts if you have a problem with them. I'm not going anywhere.

And don't worry, the New Testament, which Christians follow, tells us to turn the other cheek if struck, and in no way promotes violence against enemies, rather the opposite.

[PXaiver]

And don't worry, the New Testament, which Christians follow, tells us to turn the other cheek if struck, and in no way promotes violence against enemies, rather the opposite.

Yeah but it's ok for your god to let a child get raped.... *

[Boudica]

I am in the Religion thread and you come into it telling me to go to a Religion forum. Why not just ignore my posts if you have a problem with them. I'm not going anywhere.

And don't worry, the New Testament, which Christians follow, tells us to turn the other cheek if struck, and in no way promotes violence against enemies, rather the opposite.

Typical fundie crap talk. You know fully well that my suggestion was for you to find a fundie Christain forum rather than talking your crap here.

Honestly. This town scares me more and more with every post like yours that I read. I haven't lived here in Monroe all of my life like some of you. I'm more accustomed to more cosmopolitan views. They don't include people of the ilk like you.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. People like you and your cohorts who preach superstition scare me as much as the radical Islamists.

Both of your groups are just as intent on forcing your religious beliefs on the rest of us as the other one is. I have no use for this blatant intimidation regardless of how it's disguised.

[PXaiver]

Typical fundie crap talk. You know fully well that my suggestion was for you to find a fundie Christain forum rather than talking your crap here.

Honestly. This town scares me more and more with every post like yours that I read. I haven't lived here in Monroe all of my life like some of you. I'm more accustomed to more cosmopolitan views. They don't include people of the ilk like you.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. People like you and your cohorts who preach superstition scare me as much as the radical Islamists.

Both of your groups are just as intent on forcing your religious beliefs on the rest of us as the other one is. I have no use for this blatant intimidation regardless of how it's disguised.

You know I completely agree with you.  I was stationed in San Diego for a while and I loved that town.  All sorts of people intermingled and I miss that feeling of freedom...

[Sojourner]

Well since Satan is the ultimate deciever, what better way to decieve than create a book and label it the word of god?  Seriously Sojo, do you actually believe what you type?  If there is a Satan I would choose him in a heartbeat over the sadistic god you worship.  Afterall, God knew that Satan would turn on him right?   He didn't stop it.  He didn't sit down and have a talk with the guy and explain things.  Nope he turned his back on one of his creations not to mention all the angels that "fell".

First you say we don't have free will, then you do.  Which is it?  The way I see it, you either have TOTAL free will or none at all.

No, I didn't. I have not changed what I said at all. I said we have free will, but not as much as we imagine, and then I explained that pretty clearly. Anyone can read my posts in this thread and they'll see I never said we have no free will at all.

Yes, God knew Lucifer would fall. He condemned the sinning Angels and gave them no chance of repentance. He also doesn't have to save sinners who are by law justly condemned, but He chose to have mercy on some, to the glory of His grace.

You can pick fault with God all day, but when it's all said and done we'll all find God justified in all His ways, and no one will be able to bring a just accusation against what God did with His own creation. He may appear dark and creepy when it comes to such things, but as it's said, "He clothes Himself in darkness." But when He is revealed at last, we'll see He is holy and righteous in all His ways.

Such verses are this: "The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of destruction." Proverbs 16:4, may make men assume God has unrighteousness in Him, but as the Apostle Paul said, "Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!"

I think men have such a problem with God guiding the will, because the very nature of sin wants complete control of oneself, like God Himself. And then it cries injustice! when it sees it's not God.

[Boudica]

You know I completely agree with you.  I was stationed in San Diego for a while and I loved that town.  All sorts of people intermingled and I miss that feeling of freedom...

Glad to know there's at least one other person on this forum that understands the limitations of small town minds, ShaggyMarlin.

I wouldn't trust most of the posters on this forum any further than I could throw them. There's too many fanatics here that would just as soon damn my soul to hell based on NOTHING tangible.

Question them and their faulty premises and all you get in return is something like: "My God says you're going to hell'.

The problem with any God is that throughout the centuries, GOD (or some version of GOD) has been the basis for mass genocide in the name of every 'religious' fanatic known to the human race.

[autum]

Right, and because of their hardness of heart, God appointed them a King.

it didn't turn out well for them.... know your history or you are doomed to repeat. We are seeing it today

[PXaiver]

No, I didn't. I have not changed what I said at all. I said we have free will, but not as much as we imagine, and then I explained that pretty clearly. Anyone can read my posts in this thread and they'll see I never said we have no free will at all.

Yes, God knew Lucifer would fall. He condemned the sinning Angels and gave them no chance of repentance. He also doesn't have to save sinners who are by law justly condemned, but He chose to have mercy on some, to the glory of His grace.

You can pick fault with God all day, but when it's all said and done we'll all find God justified in all His ways, and no one will be able to bring a just accusation against what God did with His own creation. He may appear dark and creepy when it comes to such things, but as it's said, "He clothes Himself in darkness." But when He is revealed at last, we'll see He is holy and righteous in all His ways.

Such verses are this: "The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of destruction." Proverbs 16:4, may make men assume God has unrighteousness in Him, but as the Apostle Paul said, "Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!"

I think men have such a problem with God guiding the will, because the very nature of sin wants complete control of oneself, like God Himself. And then it cries injustice! when it sees it's not God.

Ahh so sin is more powerful than god.  Gotcha, it all makes sense now.  Wait, I thought he was omnipotent and created sin.  So how can god create something that is more powerful than him?  Do you realize the circles you talk in?  I thought the things that go on inside my head were scary, but I'd hate to get inside your brain.  I'm just glad you're ok with worshiping a sadistic monster because there's no way that I would be.