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[__Resurgam__]

Calvinism is a branch of Christian doctrine that teaches before the world was God picked and chose those who would be saved, not because of their own goodness but according to His own purpose, and the rest are left to perish.

There are A LOT of verses to back this. But I will only quote a few, as I don't want to drown this post in verses.

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written:  “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.” Romans 11

Another:

And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”  As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Romans 9

And one more:

...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48

And we know not all in this text believed.

Now, how can God pick and choose and be just? It's pretty simple if you understand law.

If a man kills and is put in prison, he is rightly paying the penalty for his crime, and the judge is not obligated to free him at any time, but the judge, if he is in complete control, can have mercy on him and free him if he so wishes, but again, he is by no means obligated to.

In the same way, men have sinned according their will, no one forcing them to, and are rightly and justly, by law, under condemnation. Is God now obligated to save and forgive those justly under condemnation? No court room would say He is. But He may have mercy on whom HE wills, according to His purpose.

Now, some Christians will say, "But that's unjust!" But how is it? Show me how God is obligated to save any. He was not obligated to save angels that sinned and offered them no chance at repentance, so why is He obligated to save sinners who are justly and rightly under condemnation?

All are under sin and God doesn't have to save any, as He didn't save the angels, BUT He can have mercy on those He wishes. And for what reason would He have mercy on wicked sinners? To the glory of His mercy. In this, you see that man has no room to boast before God, but only to be completely and utterly grateful.

Now, you run into the problem of will. Does God force His elect to come? No. He gives them eyes to see and ears to hear and the ability to come to Him, but the rest He leaves to perish, as He is by no law obligated to save them. He sends His call throughout all the Earth, and those who are His will come, but those who are not will by no means come.

Jesus said, "The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep." Then He says, "But you do not believe because you are not My sheep." Jesus also says, "All the Father has given Me WILL come to Me. And no one will take them out of My hand." What about those that don't come? It's simple. They were not given to Him by the Father. Again, Jesus said, "No man comes unless the Father draw Him."

All sin according to their will and are justly, by law, under the penlaty of sin, and God, by law, is not obligated to save any.

I could explain further, but I'll leave room for people to question.

[cc]

So where how does the verse John 3:16  fit in? 

 "For God so loved the world the He gave His only begotten Son that WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"



This says WHOEVER - not the elect ot only certain people but WHOEVER - meaning ALL.

[__Resurgam__]

So where how does the verse John 3:16  fit in? 

 "For God so loved the world the He gave His only begotten Son that WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

This says WHOEVER - not the elect ot only certain people but WHOEVER - meaning ALL.

Let's look at it as written. "That whoever believes in Him." But let's not overlook the verse that says, "... And all who were appointed to eternal life believed." So it's logical to conclude that the whoever are His own.

Now, let's look at John 13:1 to harmonize both those verses:

Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. John 13:1

Jesus made it clear that ALL the Father gave to Him will come to Him, and that He would in no way cast them out and that they would never perish. So what about those that will not come and that do perish?

It's already been established that by law God is not unjust in letting some perish.

[cc]

We have free will - If one chooses not to believe that is their own free will -


What about the people that believe once saved always saved? 


I dont really like the way the church dictates certain versus and the way docterine is impossed sometimes gets me going.  I think that is what pushes many people away.

[__Resurgam__]

We have free will - If one chooses not to believe that is their own free will -

Jesus made it clear not none come to Him/God unless God draws them, and Paul speaks of being a slave to sin. Stating that in him, his flesh, no good thing dwells and that he cannot do good. It's clear that man will not come to God by any good in themselves. They'll only come if God gives them the power to come, which proves the first of the five points of calvinism.

Here's a prime example of the will of man and how God works on that will without forcing.

Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.” 1 Kings 22

God didn't force Ahab to go into battle, but he allowed a lying spirit to persuade Ahab's will. Ahab ended up going to battle and dying.

What about the people that believe once saved always saved?

 
What about them? Once save always saved is scriptural in relation to the elect.

[DeamonCohln]

Since Christian sectarian in-fighting means nothing to me, I'll let my homie ProfMTH do the talking for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKkqns8nvyo

[__Resurgam__]

Since Christian sectarian in-fighting means nothing to me, I'll let my homie ProfMTH do the talking for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKkqns8nvyo

I watched that video and that man clearly has no real knowledge or understanding of Calvinism. Maybe I'll do a video response to his video this week.

[DeamonCohln]

I watched that video and that man clearly has no real knowledge or understanding of Calvinism. Maybe I'll do a video response to his video this week.

I'll inform the Prof of your intent.

[__Resurgam__]

I'll inform the Prof of your intent.

Cool. I'll try to explain the logic of Calvinism in under ten minutes and address his points.

[DeamonCohln]

Cool. I'll try to explain the logic of Calvinism in under ten minutes and address his points.

Bah, do what I do and make a long video and split it into parts.

[zard0z]

Cool. I'll try to explain the logic of Calvinism in under ten minutes and address his points.

Bah, do what I do and make a long video and split it into parts.

OH SNAP, here we go with a religion throw down...I can't wait...

[__Resurgam__]

I posted a video response but it doesn't appear until he approves it.

[__Resurgam__]

To address the matter of will in relation to election, I'll post a quick explanation.

John 1:10-13

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those verse above seem almost contradictory, but not when read in harmony with all scripture, and these verses prove election and predestination.

First it says, "He came to His own, and His own did not recieve Him."

This is clearly speaking of Israel. But why won't Israel receive Him? Paul makes it clear, saying, "Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written:  “God has given them a spirit of slumber, Eyes that they should not see, And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.” Romans 11

Next, it says, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:..."

That makes it look like men *Received Him* of their own will and goodness. But what does the following part of the verse say?

"...who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Not born of the will of man, but of God. They *Received Him* because it was the will of God. He worked within His elect and gave them the power to become Children of God.

[__Resurgam__]

Since Christian sectarian in-fighting means nothing to me, I'll let my homie ProfMTH do the talking for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKkqns8nvyo

Here's my video response. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/wHPyY5m0Ibw&amp;hl=en" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/wHPyY5m0Ibw&amp;hl=en</a>

I wrote out my thoughts first and then read them back. I am much better at writing out my thoughts than speaking them, as you'll see I'm more precise in this than in my experience video.

[Lithunica]

Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and as s. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

Yep sounds pretty just to me