Print

[JessStar]

Really not trying to be argumentative, but I'd sure like to see some sort of statistic regarding frequency on that statement. 

It has gone as an unsolved case too long. Personally, I just don't expect it to be.

I'm not sure such statistics exist. But I can give you anecdotal stats if you want. I've been a trial lawyer for 17 years. My team routinely brings in new faces in large cases to get fresh new perspectives on the evidence, case theories, leads, you name it. It's not so much a question of something being overlooked. It's more a question of strategy and perspective. This is even more important in the criminal realm where the people only get one bite at the apple.

[The Fuzz]

Engineer here by training.....anecdotal stats are kind of obscure to me.  I agree mishaps and that things could be overlooked in an investigation.  Seems to me there was a rather large contingent of several LE agencies here for a long time on this investigation where many strategies and perspectives were readily available.

Sorry, still feel the same.

[The Chicken]

I'm not sure such statistics exist. But I can give you anecdotal stats if you want. I've been a trial lawyer for 17 years. My team routinely brings in new faces in large cases to get fresh new perspectives on the evidence, case theories, leads, you name it. It's not so much a question of something being overlooked. It's more a question of strategy and perspective. This is even more important in the criminal realm where the people only get one bite at the apple.

I agree...  that is how some cold cases are solved.. a different pair of eyes..  and getting the results of the autopsy was expidited because of the Nature of the case..

But it is my understanding the the Michigan Crime Lab is very overwhelmed and underfunded...  Simple DNA could be waiting for months to a year or more before it is entered in the data base..

I understand Sheriff's Crutchfields stance on not releasing the details of the crime..  but that has led to people having nothing else to do but speculate..

The Media went away as soon as the next case grabbed the headlines..  maybe the only thing that will ever bring some light onto this is someone writing a book and looking into it privately...

Again.. we don't know if there is DNA or not..

We don't know the timeline of that day...

The family itself has suspicion casted their way, simply because of the people who were in Neveah's life and the choices made by some of the adults she depended on... had a cast of characters that, well are not citizens of the year...

It may take an outsider to look at what there is available that the public is not privy to (nor do I think the public should know everything)..

I do know that some people have said that the Grandmother said she was not molested...  I don't know if she was actually told this.. or if this is "how" she heard it and wants to believe it..  or if this is how she is coming to terms with it...   

So we don't even know if she was taken by a perve..  because there has been NO official word..

Maybe its time Tilman looks at what has been made public.. reiterate it.. and decide if there is anything else he can tell the public about this case, that may stir some additional leads..

Again.. If there were DNA evidence..  I would be the first in line to offer my DNA to see if I am related to the killer...


Even an investigative Journalist at this point could help put it in a perspective...  I mean we have seen a cast of characters... the one guy who granted the interview...  It was disturbing to say the least...  but if there is DNA, he could have simply been ruled out.. 

To me.. he is too disorganized to get away with something... you have to have some sort of organizational skills.. I don't know if the crime scene was disorganized... but that is what usually separates the people who kill on impulse.. and those that have had a plan in their head...

So I have to wonder about the evidence.... Is there DNA or not? 

I do know Sheriff Crutchfield and this case... will haunt him..  He is not the type of guy who can just shake things off like this..  and if he were still with the State Police.. he would have been an investigator on cases like this..   

The Case has everything LE can provide.. I am sure the FBI has a profile of the type of person who would do this... Usually they are pretty insightful.. unfortunately they can be broad, especially with the age range...

but resources are even more limited because of budget woes...

maybe someone with resources would pick up this investigation.. even our media and journalism have gone on the wayside...

You know..  I can't remember his name.. He used to be a reporter here in Tampa, and when FOX bought out the CBS affiliate he worked for here... They got rid of him because he was investigating something they did not want him to....  He and his wife were fired..  I seem to recall she sued successfully for her termination...

He then ended up in Detroit working for Channel 7... I can't remember his name... but he is the one that blew the lid off of Kwame... 

Then Channel 7 fired him a couple of years ago...  I really have problems with nouns so.. bare with me..

He was starting some sort of online news source for investigative Journalism...  He was starting it up over a year ago...  and if I could remember his name.. I would be curious to see how that is going for him... because he is doing this as a not for profit and its hard to start up something like that..

But if he is still around... and if he did get his project off the ground...   He would be a person who may take an interest in this case... and find some answers or maybe questions we should be asking...   

just a thought...

[The Fuzz]

It could be that it was a botched investigation where the crime scene was contaminated, evidence mishandled, destroyed, or lost too.  Maybe the silence is a cover up.

[Frenchfry]

No FF... I am sorry.. it could have been an alien from the moon... but the reality of it being a moon man is not logical...

My casting dispersions over the field of law enforcement is partly based on my observations of the LE members that consider themselves above the law.

Wasn't all that long ago that a Monroe cop tried to kill a woman that tried to go around his mini-roadblock. The bullet holes were perfect head-shots and if not for the fact the slope of the windshield deflected those bullets....that woman would be dead. Her original crime was throwing a statue through a window. The cop was cleared of wrongdoing and the woman went to prison.
Justice in Monroe. 
And I recall the cop said the woman rammed his car....yet the extensive crime scene photos revealed the cop car wasn't damaged at all.
Full disclosure...I don't personally know the woman or the cop....I'm just going by what I read in the paper.

Now going back to the week prior to somebody kidnapping Nevaeh. The news was plastered with impending layoffs of those in law enforcement because of budgetary problems.
The Nevaeh search necessitated lots of overtime for those law enforcement officers and brought out lots of citizens clamoring to save the police from those impending layoffs.
If I recall correctly, the effort was successful....other departments were forced to make bigger cuts than first proposed and law enforcement remained untouched.

So if one looks for motive....a bad apple in law enforcement is certainly a possibility.

Or as I've said before, it could've been someone that feared being hurt by those layoffs....a relative or maybe a spouse of someone in LE.

I can't discount anyone....everybody is a suspect in my book.

Okay let's move on and consider where Nevaeh was found.

I'm unfamiliar with the location as I've never had any reason to venture in that direction so I have no idea whether there are houses nearby but it seems the killer chose it for a reason.

The fact that the killer used concrete to replicate the boulders around there screams that the sicko was from that area...and most likely male since concrete mix isn't exactly light.

It's unbelievable that somebody didn't see the guy hauling a bag of concrete out of a vehicle....or lugging the girl...but then he may have made her walk.

The longer this case remains unsolved....the more the memories of potential witnesses can fade.

The cops ought to cross-reference the locals that have ever lived near that area with those that lived in the complex at the time of the murder.

Then gather the records of vehicles they've owned or had access to and then canvass the area where Nevaeh was found. Somebody may remember something.

Of course I know nothing of law enforcement procedures....they've probably already visited every possible angle....I'm just tossing stuff out there in case it wasn't.

I have zero tolerance for those that harm innocent children.

This monster must be caught.

[justbeingme]

If I remember correctly..but correct me if I am mistaken...when Jennifer called George when Nevaeh went missing was he NOT fishing in the same spot that Nevaeh was found at???  At least thats what I heard when rumors were flying around, plus I thought it was said that Savannah was also with him at that time?

The site where she was buried at ...is not easily visible from the road for passers to see. It is on a curve of Dixon Rd that as heading south has a steel rail around that side (right side)...just inside the rail is a trail that a car could pull into..then next to that is a huge DROP that you have to crawl down...you could very easily slip ..it is that steep..that leads down to the river bank area. I do believe that more than one person was in on this..that slope is steep enough that when I visited the burial site..I wouldnt attempt to go down it, let alone having to carry objects down also..but I saw others do it when out there. Lots of dirt and a sort of ledge made from the dirt and stones almost like steps but really not.

The closest houses are about 1/8 of a mile or just a bit closer to the site..I think the first is on the opposite side of the road from the area.
There is NO way you could see down into that area very well from walking or driving by ..unless you are on the inside of that handrail...if there had been a firepit of some sort..you may have seen the light..but thats about all.
It is a very isolated area to say the least...and YES people have to know that area to know its there!

[BigRedDog]

If I remember correctly..but correct me if I am mistaken...when Jennifer called George when Nevaeh went missing was he NOT fishing in the same spot that Nevaeh was found at???  At least thats what I heard when rumors were flying around, plus I thought it was said that Savannah was also with him at that time?

The site where she was buried at ...is not easily visible from the road for passers to see. It is on a curve of Dixon Rd that as heading south has a steel rail around that side (right side)...just inside the rail is a trail that a car could pull into..then next to that is a huge DROP that you have to crawl down...you could very easily slip ..it is that steep..that leads down to the river bank area. I do believe that more than one person was in on this..that slope is steep enough that when I visited the burial site..I wouldnt attempt to go down it, let alone having to carry objects down also..but I saw others do it when out there. Lots of dirt and a sort of ledge made from the dirt and stones almost like steps but really not.

The closet houses are about 1/8 of a mile or just a bit closer to the site..I think the first is on the opposite side of the road from the area.
There is NO way you could see down into that area very well from walking or driving by ..unless you are on the inside of that handrail...if there had been a firepit of some sort..you may have seen the light..but thats about all.
It is a very isolated area to say the least...and YES people have to know that area to know its there!

I don't recall hearing that George was at that particular spot when she called.  It would seem if that was the case LE would have been more attentive to that location before her body was discovered.

Here's a link to a Google Map of the site as justbeingme is describing it.

These photos were taken some time last fall so you are actually seeing some of the things left there as a memorial site. 

A is at the top of the bank right beside Dixon Rd.

B is the parking spot along the road and behind the guard rail.  You can see the two tracks and a vehicle could get closer to the crime scene than where I put my B (so as not to obscure too much).

If you zoom the map out some you can see the proximity of  the houses to the scene.

At the time there was even some speculation that someone went to the extreme to use a boat to transport the cement and body to that sight.  I have never thought that would have been necessary.

Even if I was driving down that road in broad daylight and saw someone carrying a young girl that age over their shoulder from a car I would just assume that she was sleeping from the ride.

http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=41.96443,-83.58333&z=20&t=S&marker0=41.96439%2C-83.58317%2C4.4%20km%20NW%20of%20Monroe%20County%20MI&marker1=41.96439%2C-83.58375%2C4.4%20km%20NW%20of%20Monroe%20County%20MI

[BigRedDog]

Here is the Google "streetview" of the scene...   not sure when this photo was taken but definitely since the memorial site was established.  You can get some idea of how fast the bank drops off right there.  Once someone is over that bank the only way they can be seen is from the river itself or from the top of the bank and on the river side of the guard rail.  A car or even a tall truck can not see down there. 

I would have to think the burial happened at night so it would be that much more difficult to see anything. 

And there are people fishing there all the time so even the immediate neighbors wouldn't think anything of seeing a car parked behind the railing.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dundee,+mi&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=37.598824,100.546875&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Dundee,+Monroe,+Michigan&ll=41.964341,-83.583448&spn=0.008632,0.024548&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=41.964337,-83.583595&panoid=ZHTpcsDW34ZlyvyoldMcEQ&cbp=12,352.67,,0,13.51

[Frenchfry]

Thanks for the maps. I had no idea the river was that wide and somehow I kept envisioning everything happened on the north side of it.

Still the killer must have known that area would receive visitors or else why would he go to the lengths he did by trying to replicate a boulder or whatnot?

I would be incredible to someday find out the person that collected the reward had something to do with this.

[The Chicken]

My casting dispersions over the field of law enforcement is partly based on my observations of the LE members that consider themselves above the law.

Wasn't all that long ago that a Monroe cop tried to kill a woman that tried to go around his mini-roadblock. The bullet holes were perfect head-shots and if not for the fact the slope of the windshield deflected those bullets....that woman would be dead. Her original crime was throwing a statue through a window. The cop was cleared of wrongdoing and the woman went to prison.
Justice in Monroe. 
And I recall the cop said the woman rammed his car....yet the extensive crime scene photos revealed the cop car wasn't damaged at all.
Full disclosure...I don't personally know the woman or the cop....I'm just going by what I read in the paper.

Now going back to the week prior to somebody kidnapping Nevaeh. The news was plastered with impending layoffs of those in law enforcement because of budgetary problems.
The Nevaeh search necessitated lots of overtime for those law enforcement officers and brought out lots of citizens clamoring to save the police from those impending layoffs.
If I recall correctly, the effort was successful....other departments were forced to make bigger cuts than first proposed and law enforcement remained untouched.

So if one looks for motive....a bad apple in law enforcement is certainly a possibility.

Or as I've said before, it could've been someone that feared being hurt by those layoffs....a relative or maybe a spouse of someone in LE.

I can't discount anyone....everybody is a suspect in my book.

Okay let's move on and consider where Nevaeh was found.

I'm unfamiliar with the location as I've never had any reason to venture in that direction so I have no idea whether there are houses nearby but it seems the killer chose it for a reason.

The fact that the killer used concrete to replicate the boulders around there screams that the sicko was from that area...and most likely male since concrete mix isn't exactly light.

It's unbelievable that somebody didn't see the guy hauling a bag of concrete out of a vehicle....or lugging the girl...but then he may have made her walk.

The longer this case remains unsolved....the more the memories of potential witnesses can fade.

The cops ought to cross-reference the locals that have ever lived near that area with those that lived in the complex at the time of the murder.

Then gather the records of vehicles they've owned or had access to and then canvass the area where Nevaeh was found. Somebody may remember something.

Of course I know nothing of law enforcement procedures....they've probably already visited every possible angle....I'm just tossing stuff out there in case it wasn't.

I have zero tolerance for those that harm innocent children.

This monster must be caught.

Fry.. where I live.. you come after LE in a vehicle, it is considered an imminent threat and Law Enforcement is trained to shoot to kill...   They don't know why the person is coming at them.. when you are ordered to stop... you stop!..    Going around a road block.. they do what they are suppose to do..

We have had five or more officers murdered so far this year because of routine traffic stops..  They had no idea the people they were approaching in the car were going to kill them and drive off.. 

So yeah... you may not like it.. But I have to say LE needs the benefit of doubt because they do not know who is behind the wheel of the car, or why they are not stopping, and coming in their direction..   

The woman is fortunate she did not get killed... and in my opinion... She is exactly where she needs to be..   We have to respect laws.. and protect our Law Enforcement Officers...  Because around here.. it can be like the wild west!.. 

The Two Tampa officers who were murdered.. did not know the passenger in the car was wanted for three murders.. he had only been out of prison for two months and was already a suspect in three murders...  They locked down this town..  For three days they chased him around where I live..  He found friends that would hide him.. then he hid in strangers homes while holding them at gunpoint...

All because the car he was in was pulled over... because it had an expired tag...   He came out of that car and shot both officers in the head..  One was just getting out of his car... the other one they ran his body over after shooting him.. 

You don't think LE even in a town the size of Monroe isn't aware that there are people in cars that will murder a cop, rather face going to jail...

No...  you stop.. you don't drive around road blocks.. and you don't drive your car at LE... Period!!!

They don't have a crystal ball that tells them this person is not dangerous, even though they are acting dangerous..  they can only go on what they see... and what their training tells them to do..

Its a matter of their life and death...  So they have to make the decision to use deadly force.. or risk losing their own life..  Training is the difference for an officer.. one that second guesses or lets their guard down because its only an expired tag...  They are the ones that get murdered!

[The Chicken]

The Spot where she was found.. has haunted me.  I grew up there.. I fished there.. even when I got my drivers license.. me and a friend went to that spot on a warmer February day.. So we could use that guardrail to set up cardboard..  to block the wind.. In order for us to lay out in the sun to get a head start on our tans!!!   Why there? .. I have no idea.. we were 16...  but we went there all the time.. 

I was a wild child tomboy that had a horse, a mini bike, even my bicycle.. I can't tell you how many times I have crossed that Rail road tressel to get to the other side of the river...  When you live in the sticks.. You have to travel to meet your friends..  I had little supervision and hated being in the house.. so I rambled that river...   I have a weird memory.. I remember almost everything that happens everyday!..  Its photographic.. I recall memories by seeing it in my mind like how a movie will show on a screen..   If your mind works differently.. I envy you! 

This is why when I saw where she was found... I too have an intimate knowledge of that place.. Now factor in, I am trained.. I understand pathologies, what is logical and what is not...

I don't think it takes an Einstien to see how this spot would relate to the killer....  I really think if it were someone as obvious a Kennedy and the other one..  Not counting the weirdo that lives in the Orchard..  If they have evidence.. The case would be solved...

So if I think that there is evidence and the issue is they have not found the physical evidence to tie them...  Then I have to think that it maybe a stranger abduction..  but not a stranger to the place where she was found...

When the news broke when she was found.. I immediately went on the SO's website to see if I knew anyone who is connected with that site..  There is..  He grew up on the river.. going to Dundee we all rode the same bus no matter what grade you are in...  He rode my bus... he is younger than me.. that family had like five sets of fraternal twins..  They were in every grade!   But one of them is on the list.. he is on 24 hour monitoring for raping a child..  I do know they checked him out... His whereabouts are accounted for... 

But I have wondered about other members of his family... It is rather strange that out of that number of people living in the same environment.. that only one of them has been convicted of a sexual crime..  So there we have an outlayer.. If indeed there is DNA.. They would have it because of the one that is a convicted child rapist...  So simply checking his, and not seeing any family markers in that family.. it rules out them...

I know I have already mentioned the other known perves I have encountered in my limited years I lived there..  I can even say I know a child that was sexually abused.. and he is from very near there..  He would be about 37 years old.. so near no one would even give it a second thought why would they be there...  The person who sexually abused him, committed suicide that summer...  I have no idea of what transpired since the incident when the child was five... or the person who did it..  but I do know what happened.. and I do know the who did it was mentally disturbed and the paramour of the mother... and after the incident.. they moved back home to her family farm...

So there is another one.. again.. total speculation..  but things like this don't happen on accident.. the way the body was disposed of.. in my opinion..  Tells so much about the person..  again stranger abduction theory is what I believe...   

I really think people need to put on their thinking caps...  if it is a perve stranger abduction.. and tie someone to that site.. 

Hey.. I can prove I was in Tampa or I may put me on the list!!  that is how much I have thought about people...  I have always watched people...   

Whoever did this.. the spot is the key.. I know they did this crime scene by the book.. there were too much media around and FBI waiting to find her for it not to be...   Sheriff Crutchfield says there IS evidence.. we just don't know what it is..

Did he do any kind of press release or update this past year?

I think when its a major crime like this.. Here in Tampa it gets buried because there is always something else that takes the place when a tragedy happens.. we have them almost everyday!

But in Monroe...  I say this as an objective observer...  I periodic update with the public would not be a bad idea...  State if leads are still coming in.. if there anything the public can do? 

Reassure the community and let know.. whoever it is.. that Neveah has not been forgotten..

[Frenchfry]

Fry.. where I live.. you come after LE in a vehicle, it is considered an imminent threat and Law Enforcement is trained to shoot to kill...   They don't know why the person is coming at them.. when you are ordered to stop... you stop!..    Going around a road block.. they do what they are suppose to do..

We have had five or more officers murdered so far this year because of routine traffic stops..  They had no idea the people they were approaching in the car were going to kill them and drive off.. 

So yeah... you may not like it.. But I have to say LE needs the benefit of doubt because they do not know who is behind the wheel of the car, or why they are not stopping, and coming in their direction..   

The woman is fortunate she did not get killed... and in my opinion... She is exactly where she needs to be..   We have to respect laws.. and protect our Law Enforcement Officers...  Because around here.. it can be like the wild west!.. 

The Two Tampa officers who were murdered.. did not know the passenger in the car was wanted for three murders.. he had only been out of prison for two months and was already a suspect in three murders...  They locked down this town..  For three days they chased him around where I live..  He found friends that would hide him.. then he hid in strangers homes while holding them at gunpoint...

All because the car he was in was pulled over... because it had an expired tag...   He came out of that car and shot both officers in the head..  One was just getting out of his car... the other one they ran his body over after shooting him.. 

You don't think LE even in a town the size of Monroe isn't aware that there are people in cars that will murder a cop, rather face going to jail...

No...  you stop.. you don't drive around road blocks.. and you don't drive your car at LE... Period!!!

They don't have a crystal ball that tells them this person is not dangerous, even though they are acting dangerous..  they can only go on what they see... and what their training tells them to do..

Its a matter of their life and death...  So they have to make the decision to use deadly force.. or risk losing their own life..  Training is the difference for an officer.. one that second guesses or lets their guard down because its only an expired tag...  They are the ones that get murdered!

Please....they aren't the only ones being murdered....and the cop knew not only was the person a harmless woman but also the minor crime she was being accused of.

But thanks for exemplifying the common mindset that LE should be allowed to do whatever they want because they're putting their lives on the line.

Sure they have the right to shoot to kill but that still doesn't make it right.

[JessStar]

Engineer here by training.....anecdotal stats are kind of obscure to me.  I agree mishaps and that things could be overlooked in an investigation.  Seems to me there was a rather large contingent of several LE agencies here for a long time on this investigation where many strategies and perspectives were readily available.

Sorry, still feel the same.

Please don't take offense, but this is why I rarely choose engineers as jurors. Engineers have a tendency to think in black and white and expect most things to be explained to scientific certainty using hard fast, proven rules, like the laws of physics or mathematics.  With engineering principles, if it doesn't exist in the now, it can't exist later.   The law doesn't work that way. Rarely does any set of facts repeat, there is no mathematical formula or paradigm to apply to a set of facts to determine the outcome, and developing a case is a dynamic process, not a static one.

[The Fuzz]

None taken, Jess!  Understandable in the terms you are talking about.