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Greg Chamberlain

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2007, 02:54:04 PM »

If I convince somebody to commit suicide and they actually go through with it...then it was voluntary, no? How would that be right?
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"To preserve the freedom of the human mind then and freedom of the press, every spirit should be ready to devote itself to martyrdom; for as long as we may think as we will, and speak as we think, the condition of man will proceed in improvement." - Thomas Jefferson

marilyn.monroe

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2007, 03:02:46 PM »

Even if that person was in agony and had been for a long time, with no relief available?

If you are talking about terminally ill people, I have struggled with this issue. I hate to see people suffer, but yes, I would try to deter them from suicide.
As far as other reasons for suicide...I have a pretty easy time saying, "Yes" I would try to stop someone from killing themselves, if I could.

This topic kind of confuses me  :P
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zard0z

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2007, 09:26:06 AM »

If you are talking about terminally ill people, I have struggled with this issue. I hate to see people suffer, but yes, I would try to deter them from suicide.
As far as other reasons for suicide...I have a pretty easy time saying, "Yes" I would try to stop someone from killing themselves, if I could.

This topic kind of confuses me  :P

That is what most of the people on here who are for it are saying..."Terminally ill, no hope for recovery, in agonizing pain...Would you just let that person suffer...?  I have seen first hand what it looks like for someone to go through an agonizing death...it's not pretty and I hope that none of you EVER have to go through it...

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marilyn.monroe

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2007, 11:33:30 AM »

That is what most of the people on here who are for it are saying..."Terminally ill, no hope for recovery, in agonizing pain...Would you just let that person suffer...?  I have seen first hand what it looks like for someone to go through an agonizing death...it's not pretty and I hope that none of you EVER have to go through it...


I am dealing with my own pain right now due to an ovarian cyst. I sometimes wonder if I would be able to stand the pain if it became something worse. I wonder if I would feel like just dying. I wonder if I would feel like I should end it all to ease my family's suffering. I don't know. I don't have all the answers.
I am not going to condone suicide.
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Pleasantville

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2007, 11:40:52 AM »

Here's what I had in mind when I started this thread: all human interaction is either voluntary or involuntary.

For example, when you purchase something from someone, that relationship is voluntary. When someone steals something from you, that relationship is involuntary.
The relationship is STILL voluntary-- the person who stole from you VOLUNTARILY chose to steal things that were NOT theirs to begin with. There is NO relationship in a purchase agreement or in a theft.... it is merely and interaction and while voluntary in both scenarios..... neither are possible without ONE being the VOLUNTEER initiator.

Only voluntary relationships can be morally good, because they're based on mutual consent. Involuntary relationships are not. They are based on negligence, fraud, or force and can only be morally wrong.

I do not understand how you can have a VOLUNTARY relationship unless you call RAPE a relationship. And that is a crime against someone else..... a woman/man who is NOT a volunteer... and the other person who obviously is.



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zard0z

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2007, 12:54:29 PM »

I am not going to condone suicide.

That is totally fine, no one ever asked you to do so...I on the other hand feel that if someone wants to end their life, let them...I'm worn thin from the ethical point of view that human life is precious, if that was the real case than we wouldn't have people starving or dieing in senseless wars over oil rights or religious views...We have far too long to go before we can seriously start thinking that way...
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Greg Chamberlain

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2007, 08:13:07 AM »

Why does ML duck out when all the hard questions start coming up?

Here is another one involving suicide: If all voluntary interaction is right, then does ML believe that suicide pacts should be allowed? And should a contract involving a suicide pact be enforceable by law?
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"To preserve the freedom of the human mind then and freedom of the press, every spirit should be ready to devote itself to martyrdom; for as long as we may think as we will, and speak as we think, the condition of man will proceed in improvement." - Thomas Jefferson

Matt (formerly ML)

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2007, 12:46:48 PM »

Why does ML duck out when all the hard questions start coming up?
I've been busy. I'll get back to you.

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Fred Munny

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2007, 04:31:45 PM »

I've been busy. I'll get back to you.

Yeah Greg, we can't all have 459 posts on here. Geez.
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Greg Chamberlain

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2007, 10:29:26 PM »

Hey, I don't have as many as some!
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"To preserve the freedom of the human mind then and freedom of the press, every spirit should be ready to devote itself to martyrdom; for as long as we may think as we will, and speak as we think, the condition of man will proceed in improvement." - Thomas Jefferson

marilyn.monroe

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2007, 08:16:46 AM »

Why does ML duck out when all the hard questions start coming up?

Here is another one involving suicide: If all voluntary interaction is right, then does ML believe that suicide pacts should be allowed? And should a contract involving a suicide pact be enforceable by law?
And should a contract involving a suicide pact be enforceable by law?
I don't know whether to laugh or cry @ that.
I am beginning to get the feeling that "voluntary" and "involuntary" choices aren't so clear. If you voluntarily choose something, does that hold you responsible for all things that may occur nonvoluntarily out of your choice? I could see someone doing something "involuntarily" that led to something good, but then one could argue the original decision was voluntary, thus the succeeding result was voluntary.
Yep, I am still confused over this subject.
Does this have anything to do with predestination?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 08:20:24 AM by marilyn.monroe »
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Matt (formerly ML)

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2007, 12:37:11 AM »

Why does ML duck out when all the hard questions start coming up?
What question here is "harder" than the one I posed when I started this thread?: what is the right basis for human interaction?

That question encompasses everything, in almost every moment of everyone's life.

Here is another one involving suicide: If all voluntary interaction is right, then does ML believe that suicide pacts should be allowed? And should a contract involving a suicide pact be enforceable by law?
Your answer to the question I originally posed already addresses that:

Let's begin that people have the right to life, liberty and property, and go from there.

If a person has a right to their life, then they certainly have the right to make contracts about the disposition of their life. If it's morally wrong to forcibly end the life of someone else, how can it be morally right to forcibly prolong the life of someone else who doesn't wish to continue living? In both instances, it's morally wrong, because that other person's life does not belong to you. You said it yourself: people have the right to life. That includes the right to end their life. If it doesn't, then their life must belong to someone else, which is in direct contradiction to your original answer.

Then there's this, in regard to my comment that using age as a measure for informed consent to sex is completely arbitary:
Okay, that's an interesting approach. Now how well does it apply to real life?
Your appeal to "real life" is an attempt to separate underlying philosophy from human action. The two cannot be separated. Your philosophy determines your decisions. Your only choice is whether to have a rational philosophy, or an irrational one.

Not one person here has offered an alternative to my proposal that all human interaction is either voluntary or involuntary. Is there an alternative?
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Matt (formerly ML)

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Re: What Is the Right Basis for Human Interaction?
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2007, 12:45:41 AM »

For example, when you purchase something from someone, that relationship is voluntary. When someone steals something from you, that relationship is involuntary.
The relationship is STILL voluntary-- the person who stole from you VOLUNTARILY chose to steal things that were NOT theirs to begin with. There is NO relationship in a purchase agreement or in a theft.... it is merely and interaction and while voluntary in both scenarios..... neither are possible without ONE being the VOLUNTEER initiator.
If the word "voluntary" doesn't work for you, think about human interaction as either based on mutual consent, or not based on mutual consent.

Only voluntary relationships can be morally good, because they're based on mutual consent. Involuntary relationships are not. They are based on negligence, fraud, or force and can only be morally wrong.
I do not understand how you can have a VOLUNTARY relationship unless you call RAPE a relationship. And that is a crime against someone else..... a woman/man who is NOT a volunteer... and the other person who obviously is.
Rape is certainly a relationship; a brutal, violent, involuntary relationship, which is absolutely not based upon mutual consent.
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