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[ducksoup]

the hypothetical scenarios are thought experiments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment) that provide us with a way of understanding ideas that may not seem apparent at first glance.  it would serve you well to start thinking a little more in depth. 

Hypotheticals can indeed be supportive of an argument... if they are validly related.  Which, if you are unable to understand.. was my point.

[JL]

Here's how your little system is discriminatory.  Let's play your game and take a hypothetical situation.

Let's say I'm shot.   The ambulance pulls up, cuts open my shirt to work on me and notices my pentagram tattoo.  None of the workers want to associate with Pagans, and by your rules they don't have to, so they leave me there.  After a little while someone who doesn't mind associating with Pagans takes me to the hospital, but they don't want to associate with me because of my religion.  I'm starting to go into shock, but they still won't take me and they don't have to.

Well the person who took me to the hospital likes me but doesn't like the people in the next town over so they won't drive me there to get checked out.  Even if I find a ride to the next hospital, there's no telling if the doctors at that hospital want to associate with me.  Hence, I end up dying because people don't want to associate with me because of my religion.  Now replace "religion" with "sex", "sexual orientation", "skin color" etc....

How does it feel to belong to a group that harbors racists and bigots?


Oh one other thing for the hypothetical situation, I was shot by a yak that was shooting mind bullets at me from 200 yards away.  Sorry I left that bit of information out.  You may be able to find an answer now.

you're making broad generalizations, and assumptions about how people will react to a particular situation.  bigotry is a human flaw of the psyche.  no amount of legislation or force can change the way a person thinks.  the injustice is when a person acts on these feelings and initiates force against another person.  i don't claim to know how a free society would operate, just as i don't know the entire workings of a car, but from a moral standpoint it is superior to a system that is based on the initiation of force.  a system that is as unjust at its very core. 

anyhow, i don't know why you are on this topic.  i guess you are avoiding the topic again.

"we are all sovereign individuals, regardless of our location on earth, and no one has a right to initiate force against us, period.  forcing someone to either move or follow unjust rules, is an injustice in and of itself.  that is not a solution, it is a symptom of the problem."   

[PXaiver]

But by choosing not to help me they are merely exercising their right to association so why does my right to life trump their right to associate? 

Again, no one is forcing you to do anything.  You are your own person.  You make choices everyday that yoy feel benefit you.  No one is forcing you to live in this country.  No one is keeping you from starting your own country.  Your society will fail because it goes against human nature.

[ducksoup]

But by choosing not to help me they are merely exercising their right to association so why does my right to life trump their right to associate? 

Again, no one is forcing you to do anything.  You are your own person.  You make choices everyday that yoy feel benefit you.  No one is forcing you to live in this country.  No one is keeping you from starting your own country.  Your society will fail because it goes against human nature.

I don't agree that it goes against human nature.  JL and others repeately say that it is a "right" to follow human nature.. to be bigoted, or murderous.  Unfortunately, after teh argument the rules change and miraculously there is no need for a structure because everyone becomes angelic.  Without structure, humans are, for the most part, cruel and self serving...

THanks for the parable note Griff.

[JL]

But by choosing not to help me they are merely exercising their right to association so why does my right to life trump their right to associate? 

Again, no one is forcing you to do anything.  You are your own person.  You make choices everyday that yoy feel benefit you.  No one is forcing you to live in this country.  No one is keeping you from starting your own country.  Your society will fail because it goes against human nature.

it doesn't.  that's a decision that they are free to make.  would it be ok for me to put a gun to your head and force you to spend the rest of your life saving the lives of others? 

of course, practically speaking, why would a service provider deny someone service?  that's bad for business unless you are not bound by the competitive regulation inherent in a free society -- such as in a government monopoly. 

against human nature?  but you're ok with initiating force against others? 

[JL]

I don't agree that it goes against human nature.  JL and others repeately say that it is a "right" to follow human nature.. to be bigoted, or murderous.  Unfortunately, after teh argument the rules change and miraculously there is no need for a structure because everyone becomes angelic.  Without structure, humans are, for the most part, cruel and self serving...

THanks for the parable note Griff.

um..murder is the ultimate form of initiating force.  that's the epitome of what i am opposed to.  i am for structure based on voluntary associations not the current structure which is based on the advancement of wealthy governing elites and obedient subordinates like you.

if humans weren't self serving, we'd probably be extinct by now.  its the self serving that is driven by the initiation of force (which is what you are supporting through government) that is the problem. 

[PXaiver]

JL what you are asking for is a utopian society.  I'm sorry but its not going to happen.  I understand that capitalism has some merits in society despite the fact I hate it.


For the record the reason why we have advanced as a species is not because we're self serving.  Its because we cooperated with each other.

[JL]

JL what you are asking for is a utopian society.  I'm sorry but its not going to happen.  I understand that capitalism has some merits in society despite the fact I hate it.


For the record the reason why we have advanced as a species is not because we're self serving.  Its because we cooperated with each other.

i have to explain this every time, and it just doesn't sink in.  i never once claimed that things would be utopian, even in a voluntary society.  humans are inherently flawed beings and there will always be those that seek to gain at the expense of others.  that is not a good reason to guarantee through government fiat, these injustices and put power into the hands of a few people who are no less likely to commit atrocities than anyone else.  it's a dangerous concept that has given us all the infamous government murderers over he years (eg. caesar, hitler, lenin, stalin, wilson, truman, bush, obama). 

[PXaiver]

JL life isn't fair.  I looked at your side and the one thing that kept coming back to me is that your ideals can't happen because of human nature.  That's why my utopian socialist ideals can't work.  I accepted that fate and modified my hard line leftist ideas.  I accept the fact that humans aren't always looking out for the better interest of their fellow man.  You do what you feel is right and I do the same.  That's all you can ask of another person despite that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[JL]

JL life isn't fair.  I looked at your side and the one thing that kept coming back to me is that your ideals can't happen because of human nature.  That's why my utopian socialist ideals can't work.  I accepted that fate and modified my hard line leftist ideas.  I accept the fact that humans aren't always looking out for the better interest of their fellow man.  You do what you feel is right and I do the same.  That's all you can ask of another person despite that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

we will never see a world void of murder, and theft either.  should we not strive for and end to those things, and preach against them?  or should we legalize them and incorporate them into government? 

you're mistaking a common mistake by assuming that because i am offering an alternative to the status quo, that i'm claiming it's the key to utopia.  i've made no such claim; only that the current system is immoral and destructive at its very core. 

[Abby]

Here's how your little system is discriminatory.  Let's play your game and take a hypothetical situation.

Let's say I'm shot.   The ambulance pulls up, cuts open my shirt to work on me and notices my pentagram tattoo.  None of the workers want to associate with Pagans, and by your rules they don't have to, so they leave me there.  After a little while someone who doesn't mind associating with Pagans takes me to the hospital, but they don't want to associate with me because of my religion.  I'm starting to go into shock, but they still won't take me and they don't have to.

Well the person who took me to the hospital likes me but doesn't like the people in the next town over so they won't drive me there to get checked out.  Even if I find a ride to the next hospital, there's no telling if the doctors at that hospital want to associate with me.  Hence, I end up dying because people don't want to associate with me because of my religion.  Now replace "religion" with "sex", "sexual orientation", "skin color" etc....

How does it feel to belong to a group that harbors racists and bigots?


Oh one other thing for the hypothetical situation, I was shot by a yak that was shooting mind bullets at me from 200 yards away.  Sorry I left that bit of information out.  You may be able to find an answer now.

Wow!  In your little list of substitutions, some may want to substitute "poor health", a disability, aging..." and you just might be talking about how some would be viewed in light of the proposed "sickness management" that is being packaged as national health care. That was a great story, Shag!

[PXaiver]

Actually national health care wouldn't allow for discrimination like our current system does.

[jbs49238]

NOTE to JL:

No one is violently forcing you to do anything.

Name me one thing you HAVE to do by force... tell me who is at your door, gun in hand forcing you to do something you don't want to do.

Explain to me why I am required to give up my right to representation under the laws of our Nation, so that you can feel satisfied in residing upon this earth.  Explain to me how your whims can be morally justified!  We live in a country of laws, laws drawn up by men and women who frankly are much much more intelligent than YOU or I, many of our laws were penned by people following what they felt was God's Divine Law.

I guess I need you to explain to me why you stand here and argue that we are all of the same importance, yet your posts would indicate that the only persons concerns or Rights that are of any importance are yours.

Government is important, some structure is important, your plan for the world is incredibly risky.  Your plans would lead to even more of what you complain of now... isolated wealth, mindless followers of the elite, etc.  Your plan would in no way hope to eliminate the pillars of racism, bigotry, and hate... in fact would only insulate them and give them an environment in which to flourish.

As for your initial retorts in this thread... it is sad to see that after your hiatus that steel trap of yours is even more hopelessly welded shut.  I would have hoped you had spent the time searching for a tool to unlock the potential gift residing between your ears.  If you find it please loan it out, there are at least 2 others in this thread who could benefit.

[JL]

NOTE to JL:

No one is violently forcing you to do anything.

Name me one thing you HAVE to do by force... tell me who is at your door, gun in hand forcing you to do something you don't want to do.

Explain to me why I am required to give up my right to representation under the laws of our Nation, so that you can feel satisfied in residing upon this earth.  Explain to me how your whims can be morally justified!  We live in a country of laws, laws drawn up by men and women who frankly are much much more intelligent than YOU or I, many of our laws were penned by people following what they felt was God's Divine Law.

I guess I need you to explain to me why you stand here and argue that we are all of the same importance, yet your posts would indicate that the only persons concerns or Rights that are of any importance are yours.

Government is important, some structure is important, your plan for the world is incredibly risky.  Your plans would lead to even more of what you complain of now... isolated wealth, mindless followers of the elite, etc.  Your plan would in no way hope to eliminate the pillars of racism, bigotry, and hate... in fact would only insulate them and give them an environment in which to flourish.

As for your initial retorts in this thread... it is sad to see that after your hiatus that steel trap of yours is even more hopelessly welded shut.  I would have hoped you had spent the time searching for a tool to unlock the potential gift residing between your ears.  If you find it please loan it out, there are at least 2 others in this thread who could benefit.

let me ask you this, jbs:  do you approve of the wars in iraq, afghanistan, etc.?  do you approve of torture, domestic spying?  what about bank bailouts, corporate welfare, farm subsidies, etc.? 

do you support all everything the government does?

while you're mulling that over i'll give you one thing that i'm forced to do against my will:  pay income taxes.  if i stand up for my right to keep the fruits of my labor there will eventually be a government agent, gun in hand, at my door forcing me to give them the money i earned with my labor.  don't believe me?  try to keep your earnings and see what happens.  that's just the tip of the ice-berg.  you'd be hard pressed to find a facet of your life that isn't impacted by the force of the government.  government by it's vary nature is forceful.  it can operate no other way.  imagine a government unable to use force.  imagine a tax that was voluntary.  it's an oxymoron. 

[ducksoup]

let me ask you this, jbs:  do you approve of the wars in iraq, afghanistan, etc.?  do you approve of torture, domestic spying?  what about bank bailouts, corporate welfare, farm subsidies, etc.? 

do you support all everything the government does?

while you're mulling that over i'll give you one thing that i'm forced to do against my will:  pay income taxes.  if i stand up for my right to keep the fruits of my labor there will eventually be a government agent, gun in hand, at my door forcing me to give them the money i earned with my labor.  don't believe me?  try to keep your earnings and see what happens.  that's just the tip of the ice-berg.  you'd be hard pressed to find a facet of your life that isn't impacted by the force of the government.  government by it's vary nature is forceful.  it can operate no other way.  imagine a government unable to use force.  imagine a tax that was voluntary.  it's an oxymoron. 

Wrong... IF you make no income you are not required to pay a tax.  Your choice was made to make an income, although no one had a gun to your head to do that... it was YOUR choice, exposing you to a result.