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lordfly

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2007, 08:28:02 AM »

You don't want to talk about gravity, because you can't deal with the fact Newton was a religious man, who believed in God.

That has nothing to do with anything. Darwin was religious too. So were thousands of other thinkers and scientists. That doesn't affect anything about their theories. Or do you simply discount scientific discoveries based on what the scientists believe in their personal lives?

Do you discount quantum physics and special relativity because Einstein was a humanist/athiest?


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Darwinism has become many things to many people. It finds its roots in the theories of evolution and natural selection.

Again you're comparing and speaking about Darwinism like it's a religion, which is a false dichotomy. It is not a religion, and never has been.

Is psychoanalysis a religion or a scientific theory?

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Evolution does not disprove Creationism, and as you say, evolution does not explain how our world was created.

There's nothing to disprove. You cannot disprove a philosophy or religion. Therefore, it isn't science. Ergo, it should not be taught in science class.

Evolution was NEVER meant to explain where the universe/world came from, much like how cosmology was never meant to explain why wars are fought (that's sociology)

Prove to me that God exists.
Now, prove to me that God does NOT exist.
Prove to me, with facts, that we have a soul and go to heaven when we die.
Prove to me that we do NOT have a soul.

You cannot do either with empircal evidence (The Bible is not empirical evidence).

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marilyn.monroe

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2007, 09:23:18 AM »

That has nothing to do with anything. Darwin was religious too. So were thousands of other thinkers and scientists. That doesn't affect anything about their theories. Or do you simply discount scientific discoveries based on what the scientists believe in their personal lives?
Darwinism is a philosophy and therefore should not belong in science class, according to some.


Do you discount quantum physics and special relativity because Einstein was a humanist/athiest?
Does that mean he didn't have morals? Did his lack of belief in God make it easier for him and his fellow scientists to create nuclear bomb?


Again you're comparing and speaking about Darwinism like it's a religion, which is a false dichotomy. It is not a religion, and never has been. More like a cult... :D

Is psychoanalysis a religion or a scientific theory?
I think that falls under mental health, so religion and science can be applicable.
There's nothing to disprove. You cannot disprove a philosophy or religion. Therefore, it isn't science. Ergo, it should not be taught in science class.
Again, that is your opinion. I am a parent of school children and I pay property taxes. I think that gives me a right to my opinion

Evolution was NEVER meant to explain where the universe/world came from, much like how cosmology was never meant to explain why wars are fought (that's sociology)Really...didn't life crawl out of the ooze of the big bang and evolve into what it is today?  :D

Prove to me that God exists.
Now, prove to me that God does NOT exist.
Prove to me, with facts, that we have a soul and go to heaven when we die.
Prove to me that we do NOT have a soul.

You cannot do either with empircal evidence (The Bible is not empirical evidence).
You seem to present that you have an open mind, altho I do question your openess to Christianity, I would say this, you need to open your heart if you want to know God.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2007, 09:32:00 AM »

"The Philosophy of Science"
Limitations of science

Many people consider science to be the most powerful human system ever devised for the discovery of truth. Certainly, science has been extremely successful, in the sense that scientific theories underly the operation of all of modern technology. For example, humans could not have devised computers, aviation, telecommunications, civil engineering, or Western medicine without the guidance of science, because all of these fields depend deeply on the basic and particular properties of the physical universe for their operation.

However, there are limitations to what any truth-finding method based on objective replication of experiments can discover. Some fields, such as economics, ecology, or social science can be very hard to experiment with. Even more problematic is the study of human consciousness, which is by nature subjective, yet undeniably "real" in some sense. The human race does not at this time possess reliable techniques to study these and other subjects; better methods of truth-determination for these difficult areas are (or should be) an ongoing project of epistemology, the study of knowledge.

This is why science, though extremely powerful, cannot by itself give rise to a truly complete or balanced worldview. Just as those who do not understand or do not trust science cut themselves off from what may be the largest and most accurate body of knowledge and technique that humankind has ever accumulated, anyone who studies only scientific fields denies a huge amount of knowledge, both currently known and potentially knowable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science

yes yes copy pasta, but I think it's important for you scientists to read  :P

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lordfly

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2007, 10:27:48 AM »

Quote from: marilyn.monroe link=topic=1990.msg41926#msg41926
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Darwinism is a philosophy and therefore should not belong in science class, according to some.
[/color]

How can it be a philosophy? How can I use darwinism to change my life?

you might be confusing it with social darwinism, which was a "social movement" of sorts in the... der.... late 19th century? Basically, people took Darwin's observation (empirical, scientific observation) of animals and tried to shoehorn it into modern society. That is, the weak shall perish, and only the strong (rich, powerful) will survive. It was used to excuse a lot of atrocities in Africa and whatnot.

Darwinism is NOt social darwinism.

Does that mean he didn't have morals? Did his lack of belief in God make it easier for him and his fellow scientists to create nuclear bomb?

It made it harder, but it's irrelevent to the point. you're equating scientific advancements with religion. They are TWO SEPARATE SPHERES.


More like a cult... :D
Not really. If you could get the definition of cult and explain that a scientific observation is a cult, that'd be fab.


Is psychoanalysis a religion or a scientific theory?
I think that falls under mental health, so religion and science can be applicable.

Dodged the question. :) Psychoanalysis is a scientific theory. It deals with spirituality, but it doesn't use spirituality to explain itself (only symptoms and whatnot)

Again, that is your opinion. I am a parent of school children and I pay property taxes. I think that gives me a right to my opinion

Is it your opinion that gravity and germ theory are religious in nature as well?

With all due respect, your opinion on darwinism is mis-informed. You are equating science with religion, which doesn't work. It's like saying an apple is an orange.


Really...didn't life crawl out of the ooze of the big bang and evolve into what it is today?  :D

...no. Big bang does not equal origin of life. Life started on earth (as far as the latest scientific theory can tell) about 4.5 billion years ago (not 6000... how life was supposed to start after the invention of beer is beyond me)


You seem to present that you have an open mind, altho I do question your openess to Christianity, I would say this, you need to open your heart if you want to know God.

My spirituality has nothing to do with scientific inquiry. It shouldn't have anything to do with it at all, ever. Maybe as a springboard, as in "did a flood happen 5000 years ago?", but science isn't a dogmatic belief system. It just explains how stuff works.

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zard0z

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2007, 11:06:05 AM »

You know, I posted the TV listing for people to watch the show and THEN come up with your opinions...But, I guess some don't need the information and feel that their gut instincts are an absolute(I'm guilty of it from time to time)...Go figure...LOL

Sometimes a little information can go a long way...

A recent argument advanced by some creationists is that science is just another religion, and so it deserves no special status in our educational system. This is an interesting twist, because so far the suggestion had been just the opposite: that creationism is science, and therefore it needs to be taught in public schools...Arguing that evolution is a religion is a tactic designed to undermine confidence in the scientific process. This also allows the introduction of Intelligent Design which would not be admissible under rigorous scientific standards. Arguing that religious creationism is needed, however, is based on the assumption that having more religion in schools is necessary to restore the moral fiber of the nation...Creationist leaders have made it clear that their efforts to undermine science are part of a larger agenda to promote religion, but most of the time they keep quiet about this and instead focus on saying that their creationist arguments are just as “scientific” as evolution — this, despite the fact that they have no evidence for their claims, do no research, make no predictions that have or even can be tested and have made no discoveries...

Also, don't confuse the "philosophy of science" with "scientific theory"...They are two different animals...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory






« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 11:27:28 AM by zard0z »
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2007, 03:16:18 PM »

Run Rabbits Run!
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zard0z

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marilyn.monroe

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2007, 03:19:00 PM »

Personally, I think you men choose not to believe in God, because you think if there was a God, it should be you.
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zard0z

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2007, 03:23:12 PM »

Personally, I think you men choose not to believe in God, because you think if there was a God, it should be you.


LMAO...!

 *:)  If that was the case I would have ended life on this planet a long time ago...LOL



« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 03:25:49 PM by zard0z »
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Ördög

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2007, 04:19:05 PM »

Maybe they should have two science classes, one for the intelligent and one for those whose parents oppose free thought.


That's a wonderful idea. I think that already exists though. My child is encouraged to think freely, and she will someday soon have the ability to educate herself. She will have all of the tools necessary to seek out answers for herself and to form her own opinions and beliefs. I think the class for parents who oppose free thought is called Sunday school. Do what I say, think what I say, believe what I say.

I'm not breeding sheep in my home. I'm trying to raise an intelligent, free thinking human being who will have the power to choose for herself.
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As a species we're fundamentally insane. Put more than two of us in a room, we pick sides and start dreaming up ways to kill one another. Why do you think we invented politics and religion?

marilyn.monroe

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2007, 04:41:09 PM »


That's a wonderful idea. I think that already exists though. My child is encouraged to think freely, and she will someday soon have the ability to educate herself. She will have all of the tools necessary to seek out answers for herself and to form her own opinions and beliefs. I think the class for parents who oppose free thought is called Sunday school. Do what I say, think what I say, believe what I say.

I'm not breeding sheep in my home. I'm trying to raise an intelligent, free thinking human being who will have the power to choose for herself.
Maybe you should give your daughter a chance to try sunday school, or doesn't your free thinking allow religion?
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2007, 05:47:49 PM »

I am coming across a lot of odd things researching Intelligent Design, or ID...
Flew/Dawkins
http://www.islamonline.net/english/Science/2005/04/article07.shtml
"An eminent British philosopher—a key champion of atheism for more than fifty years—announced late last year that he has come to believe that there really is a God, on account of the intelligent design of the universe and life forms."

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sue lee

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2007, 08:32:03 PM »

I think a class in logic is badly needed. ;)
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Fred Munny

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2007, 08:37:12 AM »

Personally, I think you men choose not to believe in God, because you think if there was a God, it should be you.

On the contrary madam, some of us do believe in god. We just aren't egotistical enough to believe that OUR idea of God is the one and true idea and that everybody else is wrong. Further, we don't hold our beliefs above what we observe to be truth. When ever our belief conflicts with what we observe, we most decidedly choose to go with what we observe.

There is no reason why evolution, the big bang, and modern quantum physics can not be incorporated into a philosophy of intelligent design. After all, it would take a mighty intelligent force to get the ball rolling on all of these things. However, this "intelligence" is not observable, nor can it's effects be measured or even studied. As such, any talk on intelligent design is by definition NOT SCIENCE.

You and the resident christian fundie seem to be taking that as an attack on religion. You dismiss evolution because your book, a book that came about as a resulf of human political process and has been used as the justification for millions of murders, doesn't say it happens?
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zard0z

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Re: [ON NOVA] Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2007, 08:55:18 AM »

Personally, I think you men choose not to believe in God, because you think if there was a God, it should be you.

I believe in God, but that doesn't mean I can't believe in evolution too...Why is it so hard of a leap of faith that maybe God gave the primordial ooze a spark and evolution took over from there...I just don't fall in line to the idea that God made man simply by snapping his fingers and saying "walla you are man now"...The process of nature is very complex and happens over a long period of time...I use science to understand the things I don't know, not to discredit God or to say that he doesn't exist(and I never have!)...Many people other than me can see the wonders that God has crated, and with science we strive to understand them...


And why does it have to be "men" in your statement?...I'm sure there are a lot of women who believe in evolution as well...This is in no way an ego trip of "men"...That statement is callous and doesn't belong in this debate...Go start another thread if you want to bash on men... :(

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