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John Kopke

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1110 on: February 10, 2012, 10:03:46 PM »

Is it legal under the consituation for the President to order insurance companies to "pay" (OK - pass the cost along) for something?  It it not this very type mandate that is being challenged before the SCOTUS this summer? 

Ya know . . . at the risk of getting called names and saying that I am an evil conservative I would like to make an observation.  Being someone who was very interested in Operation Gun Walker / Fast and Furious because of the death of a Michigan resident I was amazed at how the White House would do mass "document" dumps on Fridays - knowing that many would not be paying attention.  So - we wait to announce a major policy change like this late afternoon on a Friday when, to be fair, the program it addresses (Health Care Reform) is currently awaiting it's day before the court - really.  This just all seems so . . . surreal. 


Surreal? Indeed.
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John Kopke

John Kopke

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1111 on: February 10, 2012, 11:03:31 PM »

A Non-Worker Today (Not Me)

I don’t have a job. Well, if the family hunkers down,  $ 300.00 per week unemployment for a 99 weeks plus another $ 75.00 to $ 400.00 a week on the side and we can get by for a couple years till something decent shows up. The New American dream. Waiting for something good to happen.

In the old days you made it happen. Guess that's old fashion.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 11:36:14 PM by John Kopke »
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Will Sweat

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1112 on: February 11, 2012, 09:04:15 AM »

A Non-Worker Today (Not Me)

I don’t have a job. Well, if the family hunkers down,  $ 300.00 per week unemployment for a 99 weeks plus another $ 75.00 to $ 400.00 a week on the side and we can get by for a couple years till something decent shows up. The New American dream. Waiting for something good to happen.

In the old days you made it happen. Guess that's old fashion.

I was unemployed for just over six months last year.  Everyday - Monday thorough Friday was consumed with going to the unemployment office and or library and searching for jobs.  On the days that I did have a "lead" and the money I would drive to the company and put in an application or drop off a resume.  Friday afternoon through Sunday was consumed with being with my three oldest children (something that meant a two hour drive - or 96.3 miles round trip). 

I "hunkered down" as I did not receive unemployment.  I picked up bottles, scrapped metal (it's amazing what you can find), cut wood, painted a house, worked on a farm for a few days and did whatever I could find.  At one point a MT poster let me know about giving plasma at a place in Toledo called Talecris that paid you for this.  I even went there - only to find after filling out the initial paperwork that I lived outside of the 25 mile limit that they place on donors - boy was that a depressing day to use that much fuel only to be turned away.  It was and is still a difficult time for my children and I as I try and "dig back" out of it after being employed now for just five months.  During that time my savings was gone and I can honestly say that there were weekends that my children maynot have had food were it not for the wonderful folks at the Salvation Army - which BTW . . . because I had grown so tired of being idle I spent several weeks going in and out of as a volunteer helping clean and work in the food pantry. 

I am writing all this because I don't believe that "waiting" is the new American dream.  I came into contact with a lot of folks; younger, my age and even older, that were desperate to find some chance - some opportunity.  One day on a "rumor" that an auto parts supplier would be hiring I went there only to be confronted with a line of more than 40 guys and gals who had also heard that rumor.  Most of them were the same people that I saw at the unemployment office nearly each day. 

I believe the dynamics of the "American Dream" has changed and that the average American Citizen had little to no control over the changing dynamics.  NAFTA, GATT, the failure of our manufacturing industry to reinvest and remain competitive, short term "greed" that infected much of the financial industry, unfunded mandates placed upon State and Local governments that made it difficult (if not impossible) to offer business' tax incentives to reinvest, governmental agencies getting into the business of "speculating" and deciding who will or will not be "winners" and none of this addresses the very real disallusion that has been caused by Public Sector Unions over the last several years.  Imagine if you are out of work and you read story after story of the pay and benefits of public sector folks . . . people being compensated from your tax dollars and how the Unions have (in some but not all - it's just that the "some" always make bigger headlines) refused any changes to pay or benefits.  As a so called "Gen - X'er" I find it odd how many folks older than me talk about the "good old days".

The good old days when a man could get a job at Chrysler then move to Ford then finally settle with Monsanto for 30 years (like my father did).  The good old days when Monroe Ford would hire folks.  The good old days when . . . . well, ever consider that one of the biggest "killers" of the "good old days" are . . . . (boy do I hate to say this) . . . the "good old people" and the legacy cost that exist from all those years?  A reality is that many of those same folks continue to occupy jobs that would be better served by people who are younger and may have more inactive, desire and creativity.  Trust me - I am not saying that people should not work but . . . who is benefiting by paying people two or three times the going rate simply because they have 30 - 40 years experience?  I don't want to force people into retirement, I want to ask them it they think staying for those "highest five years" of retirement pay will in the long run benefit the company and help it sustain for the future or if it is simply about "them".  I find it funny that people talk about "corporate greed" (a very real thing when one does not consider the impact of your behavior) but never mention the folks who engage in this (what we used to call in the Army ROADS Scholar behavior (Retired On Active Duty) as it is the same type of greed.  I have a friend that is a maintenance supervisor for an organization we both worked at.  He is now 68 and has been scheduled to retire every year for the last six years.  Each year he puts it off and take another (as he likes to joke) 155.00 a month in retirement pay.  OK - except 155.00 x 12 x 6 = 11,160.00 in retirement that the "nonprofit" will pay out when they (and he) can see revenues are falling and the truth is, as much as I love him, he does very little except ride around on a golf cart, drink coffee and cut out of work early on Fridays.  Of course - the company is also responsible because they allow it but so too is he . . . whatever happen to the "good oldies" when folks wanted to see the company they worked for do well and were dedicated to that company?  Both dedication to the worker and dedication from the worker has died off in many sectors and for many reasons.  Reality is that many corporations gave too much but at the time things were booming.  Competition was week (remember when Japanese and Korean cars were laughed at) and America believed we would always be the HCIC ("head country in charge").  What we have found is that Gil Scott-Heron (the jazz poet) was right when he said (in 1981) ; "America has found that what we once thought was the second world has now made a firm down payment on the first, we have changed from the producers to the consumers . . . America will learn that once the producer names the tune . . . the consumer has got to dance". 

We are not "waiting" we are wanting and trying to create that next opportunity.  Imagine - (just speaking from my own experience) . . . you played by the rules, served your country in the Military, graduated from College and continue to only see positions that are "flat lined" (meaning REAL pay has not risen in 6 - 7 years and now employers require you to pay 25% (or more) for any of your benefits).  Yep - that too is the new American reality.  I have a friend who is working on her PhD in Pharmacy at Ohio State and she became highly involved with the "Occupy Columbus" folks.  Because of my work I had to go to Columbus last October and November and was able to spend sometime there.  What I found were people not wanting to "wait" or wanting a "hand out" (understand - I can and will only speak to my experience) but educated people who feel "duped, bamboozled, hoodwinked" by the system that has allowed the very real structural changes to our economy that is hurting them.  Republicans blame one side (Unions, higher taxes, regulations) while Democrats blame the other (lower taxes, deregulation) when it seems more possible that the truth is someplace in the middle and that both sides are wrong . . . but - by protecting the argument they present they serve the interest of those who most financially support them and as such THEY continue to remain in power - all the while we get to do what . . . "wait". 

Yesterday someone that I dearly love and respect said in the course of an exchange that, "life is not fair and once you realize that things get better".  Of course, I know life is not fair . . . don't we all?  But somehow over the last thirty of forty years "opportunity" has been eroded in many sectors and a lot of people who, in good faith, went into those fields only to see what to government, industry and colleges and universities sell was a product that at best was days old and headed for the recycle bin.  The great majority of people are "making it happen" or are giving it there damnedest try.  For me . . . that means working a full time job and searching with desperation for a part-time late afternoon / midnights job (if ya know anyone hiring . . . . shoot me a message  ;)).  It also means continuing to feel the frustration of things out of my control and battling to climb from that hole.  Ya know - I work in Toledo which means a 92 mile drive everyday and it also means that I get to pay payroll taxes to the City of Toledo!  Payroll taxes that are just . . . "poof" . . . gone!  That was 296.00 in just a few months last year that I can never recover (just "filed" my City of Toledo Taxes yesterday) and I get 0 refund.  So - sometimes you feel that the "good old days" of op pourunity are a bit "stacked" against you.  But - then you wake up and realize that we still live in the greatest country on the earth with the greatest people in the world. 

No country is a compassionate to others.  No country offers the level of freedom and opportunity to dream.  Yeah - I think we have gotten off course over the last few years but - I believe we will be better.  I believe that because I want to and have to - I have four children that I need them to have a better financial life then I.  I know that I am part of a generation that for many of us (lower middle class up bringing) will most likely not do as good as our parents because the "education" that was sold to us as the "panacea" of success is not the magic pill we were told.  I can deal with that - but . . . for my kids . . . I will see a better America.  An America that stops pining for the "good ole'days" and looks to the future. 

No - we are not waiting . . . we are just looking toward a future that maybe not everyone can see but one that we know will be better for our children - even if we have to sacrifice ourselves - but that's just me.   

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T-M-T

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1113 on: February 11, 2012, 09:31:14 AM »

Obama’s HHS, under authority of Obamacare, ruled that Catholic Hospitals and other religious charities etc. shall henceforth offer health insurance that offers reproductive healthcare.  Well Catholic Church said hold on a minute. You crossed the freaking line! Obama says OK. You win. Your employees will still get reproductive healthcare insurance benefits, but the church won’t be paying for it… the insurance companies will provide it for free.


Here's a free Biology/Economics lesson for you:

Insurance companies are never "forced" to provide contraception.  They do it vey happily, because bIrth control pills are far less expensive than the costs for childbirth.

Obama has handled this issue brilliantly, forcing people like Romney and Gingrich to foolishly speak out against contraception despite the fact that over 98% of women (yes, even Catholics) use it at some point.
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Will Sweat

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1114 on: February 11, 2012, 09:48:10 AM »


Here's a free Biology/Economics lesson for you:

Insurance companies are never "forced" to provide contraception.  They do it very happily, because birth control pills are far less expensive than the costs for childbirth.

Obama has handled this issue brilliantly, forcing people like Romney and Gingrich to foolishly speak out against contraception despite the fact that over 98% of women (yes, even Catholics) use it at some point.


T-M-T . . . I'll bite - so then who will actually "pay" for this.  I get that it is "cheaper" than the birth of a child however there is still a cost and someone still pays for it. 

I don't believe the President handled this brilliantly based simply on members of his own party coming out against him.  Additionally - the conversation isn't about contraceptive devices but about a government mandating an organization must fund something that is against the principals they hold - honest - it's that simple. 
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Skittelroo

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1115 on: February 11, 2012, 10:08:21 AM »

I was unemployed for just over six months last year.  Everyday - Monday thorough Friday was consumed with going to the unemployment office and or library and searching for jobs.  On the days that I did have a "lead" and the money I would drive to the company and put in an application or drop off a resume.  Friday afternoon through Sunday was consumed with being with my three oldest children (something that meant a two hour drive - or 96.3 miles round trip). 

Will Sweat, often when a post this long I will skim through it.   I have to say that I read yours completely and agree with much of what you wrote.   Times have definitely changed from our parents' generation, some is easier and some is harder.     Anyway, I just wanted you to know I read this with interest and compassion.... we have been through a lot of what you expressed.   Your kids surely have a very caring and loving father.   I wish you the best in the very near future (though I suspect the "best" is what you already have had, even through the tough times). 

Skitt
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ducksoup

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1116 on: February 11, 2012, 10:43:58 AM »

I was unemployed for just over six months last year.  Everyday - Monday thorough Friday was consumed with going to the unemployment office and or library and searching for jobs.  On the days that I did have a "lead" and the money I would drive to the company and put in an application or drop off a resume.  Friday afternoon through Sunday was consumed with being with my three oldest children (something that meant a two hour drive - or 96.3 miles round trip). 

I "hunkered down" as I did not receive unemployment.  I picked up bottles, scrapped metal (it's amazing what you can find), cut wood, painted a house, worked on a farm for a few days and did whatever I could find.  At one point a MT poster let me know about giving plasma at a place in Toledo called Talecris that paid you for this.  I even went there - only to find after filling out the initial paperwork that I lived outside of the 25 mile limit that they place on donors - boy was that a depressing day to use that much fuel only to be turned away.  It was and is still a difficult time for my children and I as I try and "dig back" out of it after being employed now for just five months.  During that time my savings was gone and I can honestly say that there were weekends that my children maynot have had food were it not for the wonderful folks at the Salvation Army - which BTW . . . because I had grown so tired of being idle I spent several weeks going in and out of as a volunteer helping clean and work in the food pantry. 

I am writing all this because I don't believe that "waiting" is the new American dream.  I came into contact with a lot of folks; younger, my age and even older, that were desperate to find some chance - some opportunity.  One day on a "rumor" that an auto parts supplier would be hiring I went there only to be confronted with a line of more than 40 guys and gals who had also heard that rumor.  Most of them were the same people that I saw at the unemployment office nearly each day. 

I believe the dynamics of the "American Dream" has changed and that the average American Citizen had little to no control over the changing dynamics.  NAFTA, GATT, the failure of our manufacturing industry to reinvest and remain competitive, short term "greed" that infected much of the financial industry, unfunded mandates placed upon State and Local governments that made it difficult (if not impossible) to offer business' tax incentives to reinvest, governmental agencies getting into the business of "speculating" and deciding who will or will not be "winners" and none of this addresses the very real disallusion that has been caused by Public Sector Unions over the last several years.  Imagine if you are out of work and you read story after story of the pay and benefits of public sector folks . . . people being compensated from your tax dollars and how the Unions have (in some but not all - it's just that the "some" always make bigger headlines) refused any changes to pay or benefits.  As a so called "Gen - X'er" I find it odd how many folks older than me talk about the "good old days".

The good old days when a man could get a job at Chrysler then move to Ford then finally settle with Monsanto for 30 years (like my father did).  The good old days when Monroe Ford would hire folks.  The good old days when . . . . well, ever consider that one of the biggest "killers" of the "good old days" are . . . . (boy do I hate to say this) . . . the "good old people" and the legacy cost that exist from all those years?  A reality is that many of those same folks continue to occupy jobs that would be better served by people who are younger and may have more inactive, desire and creativity.  Trust me - I am not saying that people should not work but . . . who is benefiting by paying people two or three times the going rate simply because they have 30 - 40 years experience?  I don't want to force people into retirement, I want to ask them it they think staying for those "highest five years" of retirement pay will in the long run benefit the company and help it sustain for the future or if it is simply about "them".  I find it funny that people talk about "corporate greed" (a very real thing when one does not consider the impact of your behavior) but never mention the folks who engage in this (what we used to call in the Army ROADS Scholar behavior (Retired On Active Duty) as it is the same type of greed.  I have a friend that is a maintenance supervisor for an organization we both worked at.  He is now 68 and has been scheduled to retire every year for the last six years.  Each year he puts it off and take another (as he likes to joke) 155.00 a month in retirement pay.  OK - except 155.00 x 12 x 6 = 11,160.00 in retirement that the "nonprofit" will pay out when they (and he) can see revenues are falling and the truth is, as much as I love him, he does very little except ride around on a golf cart, drink coffee and cut out of work early on Fridays.  Of course - the company is also responsible because they allow it but so too is he . . . whatever happen to the "good oldies" when folks wanted to see the company they worked for do well and were dedicated to that company?  Both dedication to the worker and dedication from the worker has died off in many sectors and for many reasons.  Reality is that many corporations gave too much but at the time things were booming.  Competition was week (remember when Japanese and Korean cars were laughed at) and America believed we would always be the HCIC ("head country in charge").  What we have found is that Gil Scott-Heron (the jazz poet) was right when he said (in 1981) ; "America has found that what we once thought was the second world has now made a firm down payment on the first, we have changed from the producers to the consumers . . . America will learn that once the producer names the tune . . . the consumer has got to dance". 

We are not "waiting" we are wanting and trying to create that next opportunity.  Imagine - (just speaking from my own experience) . . . you played by the rules, served your country in the Military, graduated from College and continue to only see positions that are "flat lined" (meaning REAL pay has not risen in 6 - 7 years and now employers require you to pay 25% (or more) for any of your benefits).  Yep - that too is the new American reality.  I have a friend who is working on her PhD in Pharmacy at Ohio State and she became highly involved with the "Occupy Columbus" folks.  Because of my work I had to go to Columbus last October and November and was able to spend sometime there.  What I found were people not wanting to "wait" or wanting a "hand out" (understand - I can and will only speak to my experience) but educated people who feel "duped, bamboozled, hoodwinked" by the system that has allowed the very real structural changes to our economy that is hurting them.  Republicans blame one side (Unions, higher taxes, regulations) while Democrats blame the other (lower taxes, deregulation) when it seems more possible that the truth is someplace in the middle and that both sides are wrong . . . but - by protecting the argument they present they serve the interest of those who most financially support them and as such THEY continue to remain in power - all the while we get to do what . . . "wait". 

Yesterday someone that I dearly love and respect said in the course of an exchange that, "life is not fair and once you realize that things get better".  Of course, I know life is not fair . . . don't we all?  But somehow over the last thirty of forty years "opportunity" has been eroded in many sectors and a lot of people who, in good faith, went into those fields only to see what to government, industry and colleges and universities sell was a product that at best was days old and headed for the recycle bin.  The great majority of people are "making it happen" or are giving it there damnedest try.  For me . . . that means working a full time job and searching with desperation for a part-time late afternoon / midnights job (if ya know anyone hiring . . . . shoot me a message  ;)).  It also means continuing to feel the frustration of things out of my control and battling to climb from that hole.  Ya know - I work in Toledo which means a 92 mile drive everyday and it also means that I get to pay payroll taxes to the City of Toledo!  Payroll taxes that are just . . . "poof" . . . gone!  That was 296.00 in just a few months last year that I can never recover (just "filed" my City of Toledo Taxes yesterday) and I get 0 refund.  So - sometimes you feel that the "good old days" of op pourunity are a bit "stacked" against you.  But - then you wake up and realize that we still live in the greatest country on the earth with the greatest people in the world. 

No country is a compassionate to others.  No country offers the level of freedom and opportunity to dream.  Yeah - I think we have gotten off course over the last few years but - I believe we will be better.  I believe that because I want to and have to - I have four children that I need them to have a better financial life then I.  I know that I am part of a generation that for many of us (lower middle class up bringing) will most likely not do as good as our parents because the "education" that was sold to us as the "panacea" of success is not the magic pill we were told.  I can deal with that - but . . . for my kids . . . I will see a better America.  An America that stops pining for the "good ole'days" and looks to the future. 

No - we are not waiting . . . we are just looking toward a future that maybe not everyone can see but one that we know will be better for our children - even if we have to sacrifice ourselves - but that's just me.   




Will, I really liked your post.  I can see that it was made with a great deal of real thought and from the heart.  It was also clear that you were trying to avoid most of the typical spin type political rants.

About OWS, that is pretty much the main message I have gotten as well.

Your observation about the business/worker problem of not caring about each other is a big problem.  I personally despise the culture of workers simply being replaceable cogs, numbers and not people.  I do not like that people do not care about their employers either.  It does no good to place blame on which is the cause.  However, I think the logical solution would be for business to care about employees and they will likely return it.  Sure, even in the “good old days” some did not, and not all would still.  I say business first because if every employee cared about their company, I think it highly unlikely that it would change how business views workers.

One thing that I do not get is the idea that worker wages, no matter where it is said, are too high, or benefits are too costly and the worker must absorb part.  Are wages, all of them too high?  I think of John’s “good old days” and when someone was out of work he could go to many other jobs that equally would pay a wage that a family could live on, almost all well enough to own a house.   Can one do that in this age?  I remember no one at all in the “good old days” having to work two or three part time jobs to survive, let alone do well. 

Why educated individuals are systemically underpaid I cannot fathom.  It seems that it is exactly the message... strive to be better and do better as a result.  So, why is it strive to do better and don’t get to be better?

So, I do not get the drive to push wages lower, or stagnate them lower.  Is there a real reason?  I might be myopic, but I see the only motivator as corporate profits at the expense of labor.  Maybe I cannot see a valid other reason?

One thing you said I was aware of, but paid not enough attention to.  I am glad you said it.  The costs of the “good old days” are a big factor in our problems.  I had seen it as a part of things like pension costs, but not from the individual level.  I had not seen the effect one person was having on the overall picture.  I suppose there can always be exceptions; that unique individual that has knowledge that surpasses his wages and cannot be easily replaced.  But, yeah, I have seen many as you noted, basically doing nothing and getting away with it because he/she has been there so long.  I think that this must be a different setting than general workers, as most companies got rid of the older workers making more money to take on younger cheaper labor.

I guess I see our problems as being mainly business driven; devaluing workers and making them numbers only, and the drive for ever more corporate profits at any and all expense whether people or the environment.  Others see it as the government “in the way” of them making extreme profit.  Maybe on that the real answer is in the middle. 

I do not mean that to sound anti business.  I am all for mom and pop businesses that pay what they can for employees and probably care about them.  It is the “too big to fail” climate that can dictate because of sheer size.

To me I want to see micro business promoted over “small” business.  The corner store, the small machine shop, the independent electrician or plumber.  Help them.  I do not want to help “small” business that makes $300,000,000 a year because they employ only 5 people.  Unfortunately, that is more the way of “small” business.  The mom and pop store doesn’t even make it UP to being “small”.

Anyway, great job Will.  I might not agree with you 100% but I very much appreciate the honest thought and care without trying to purposefully intending to be partisan.

I guess maybe I am biased.  I saw your post as “people are important than personal greed”  Kind of where I at least try to speak from.
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ducksoup

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1117 on: February 11, 2012, 10:50:19 AM »


Here's a free Biology/Economics lesson for you:

Insurance companies are never "forced" to provide contraception.  They do it vey happily, because bIrth control pills are far less expensive than the costs for childbirth.

Obama has handled this issue brilliantly, forcing people like Romney and Gingrich to foolishly speak out against contraception despite the fact that over 98% of women (yes, even Catholics) use it at some point.


Okay, this is where an R would say "don't confuse him with facts."

it is nice that the right is all behind what the Catholic Church says and supporting it.  The Church also said that we need to quit the gutting of unemployment and work at creating jobs.  Hope the right supports that too.

Unfortunately, this is just a wedge issue and nothing else.

It does bring up a very real question.

The right wants to legislate morality by eliminating birth control and abortions.  They believe life is sacred.  Well, I think we all do, but whatever.  However, the real question is.... why is it after they are born the attitude is 'Well, if that kid working at age three cleaning out toxic sludge cannot survive it then it is his own fault.'  I don't get how life before birth is "sacred" and after they are born are trash and interchangeable cogs that can be killed or thrown away without thought or care.
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Baggins

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1118 on: February 11, 2012, 11:19:57 AM »

Will and Duck, those last two post were the most comprehensive and to the point posts I have seen in a long time, no political bias, just heart felt opinion that makes sense...I wish I could shake both of your hands, thank you...I think between the two of you, you have spoken the truth of the plight of the lost American dream and where we have gone astray.
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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1119 on: February 11, 2012, 11:41:00 AM »

Will and Duck, those last two post were the most comprehensive and to the point posts I have seen in a long time, no political bias, just heart felt opinion that makes sense...I wish I could shake both of your hands, thank you...I think between the two of you, you have spoken the truth of the plight of the lost American dream and where we have gone astray.

I agree with Baggins! 

Duck, I wonder how much women in the workforce contributes to lower wage increases.  I haven't thought this through yet, but when I was little I didn't know any wives or mothers with full-time jobs.  Seems to me that nowadays it is a necessity for both spouses to be working to pay normal household expenses.  But does their combined income pay for any more than we had?  A house, one or two cars, and a few kids...what is left over for so many?  Were there ever enough jobs to offer a double increase in those seeking jobs?  Perhaps they hire "2 people for the same wage" that one used to make?  Employers used to give raises of $1 or more per hour/annually.  I see more often now that a raise is for only a few cents per hour.  Yet the cost of living keeps creeping up by the month. 

Not sure this was the right topic to place these thoughts and questions.  Mostly, I put it out as"food for thought" and maybe further discussion another day.

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ducksoup

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1120 on: February 11, 2012, 12:35:19 PM »

I agree with Baggins! 

Duck, I wonder how much women in the workforce contributes to lower wage increases.  I haven't thought this through yet, but when I was little I didn't know any wives or mothers with full-time jobs.  Seems to me that nowadays it is a necessity for both spouses to be working to pay normal household expenses.  But does their combined income pay for any more than we had?  A house, one or two cars, and a few kids...what is left over for so many?  Were there ever enough jobs to offer a double increase in those seeking jobs?  Perhaps they hire "2 people for the same wage" that one used to make?  Employers used to give raises of $1 or more per hour/annually.  I see more often now that a raise is for only a few cents per hour.  Yet the cost of living keeps creeping up by the month. 

Not sure this was the right topic to place these thoughts and questions.  Mostly, I put it out as"food for thought" and maybe further discussion another day.




Certainly: you are correct.  I am sure that it is a part.  There was a time when women working was a choice.  Most chose to raise children, which I personally value higher than working for pay.  Then, I think the middles 70’s it changed to women HAVING to work to sustain their former standard of living.  Now, it seems we are more in a situation of far too many single households desperately trying to survive.  I think you are on to something about paying two people for one wage idea though.

I guess when I think of that situation I get more in to my personal beliefs.  I guess I am old fashioned but my own view is that someone should not be working for pay to raise the kids instead of them raising themselves.  For some it is just greed, but for many it is survival, but I don’t like it.  I believe that the correct thing is for one parent to actively raise the children FULL TIME.  It is not a new thing for me.  Before I married my wife and I discussed this and she was in agreement.  We knew that it would mean less money.  For most of the time I worked and she raised our kids.  Then, because of my physical whatever it is that I was born with got much worse and I could no longer work.  She went to work and I raised our kids.   My daughter will graduate from Eastern in April and I am still a full time dad.  With all of the hours of helping her study, and sometimes calm her stress, I feel very reward.


A couple of related but side things.  My wife makes more than I did, and we have been married 28 years, and still happy.

So, I think that you are on to something that I overlooked because of my other intense feelings.

It is on topic to what it has become, which is usual here.  You put it in the right place.
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Skittelroo

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1121 on: February 11, 2012, 12:58:26 PM »

Duck, I really appreciate that you responded.  I tend to believe that both parents working has left a lot to be desired in the future generations.  There has been a decline in values and manners, and even in learned knowledge that will aid in becoming independent and successful adults.   Some families are able to have two working parents and raise their family quite admirably, but others are not.  Good for you and your wife being able to adjust and compromise to give your family what you believe to be important!  And many successes ahead for your daughter.

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Frenchfry

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1122 on: February 11, 2012, 03:39:23 PM »

Will GOP Support Catholics on Unemployment Benefits?
Republicans claim to support Catholics in light of the recent contraception coverage issue but will they support the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops which is calling for an extension of unemployment benefits?

Will GOP Support Catholics on Unemployment Benefits?
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WARNING! Reading Republican/Conservative/Tea Party comments will lower your intelligence quotient!

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Will Sweat

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1123 on: February 11, 2012, 04:18:37 PM »

Duck, Baggins and Skitterloo - Thank You.  :-)

Will GOP Support Catholics on Unemployment Benefits?
Republicans claim to support Catholics in light of the recent contraception coverage issue but will they support the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops which is calling for an extension of unemployment benefits?

Will GOP Support Catholics on Unemployment Benefits?

Apples and Oranges.  Groups and individuals can suppport some positions and beliefs held by a group or individual without supporting all of them. 

Irrespective of party affiliation it is OK to want to support someones desire to ensure that the Government does not impose on religious beliefs - I don't get why this seems to be such a difficult concept.  I don't agree with the Islamic faith as expressed by the Holy Koran however, I don't believe that the State of Michigan or anyother organization should step in and tell Islamic Schools that they must serve meat prepared in a non ha'al manner. 
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John Kopke

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Re: We're All But Done
« Reply #1124 on: February 13, 2012, 09:59:30 PM »


Here's a free Biology/Economics lesson for you:

Insurance companies are never "forced" to provide contraception.  They do it vey happily, because bIrth control pills are far less expensive than the costs for childbirth.

Obama has handled this issue brilliantly, forcing people like Romney and Gingrich to foolishly speak out against contraception despite the fact that over 98% of women (yes, even Catholics) use it at some point.

T-M-T:
Mathematically speaking when you say insurance co. would rather pay for birth control than child birth you have a very strong argument. Yet the essense of the argument is should the President though regs at his HHS be able to dictate that a private insurance co. provide coverage for free? What part of the 5 year plan does that come under?

You say Obama played it brilliantly. I say, with Obama, nothing is sacred. Nothing.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 10:04:57 PM by John Kopke »
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John Kopke
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