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SPOOKYTOOTH

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2011, 05:23:13 AM »

The biblical flood cannot be not true due to high school level science.
  • You cannot fit two of every unclean animal and seven of every clean animal onto any current or past man-made seaworthy structure.
  • You cannot flood the Earth. There is not enough water on the planet.
  • If the entire Earth were flooded, there would be so much moisture in the air that no mammal would be able to breath.
  • All the plants on the planet would die so there would be nothing to eat once the waters magically disappeared.
  • There is no extrabiblical proof that Noah even existed.

Just because some theoretical storm could happen does not mean the flood story is even remotely true. One has nothing to do with the other. That is what is called a logical fallacy.

I wasn't going to bother to respond to your post as some of the "insights" you present really aren't worthy of a reply; but I decided to in order to present insights that ARE backed up by fact if one bothers to research into them.

It is a fact that many animals share common ancestors, and that mutations do occur forming sub-spieces of the original. Its also proven that animals can be reproduced through cloning via surrogate. I could be mistaken but I'd bet that DNA takes up a lot less room and doesn't require nearly as much feed and bedding as the actual animals themselves do.

Furthermore, while land animals would not be able to survive in water, water dwelling animals would, not to mention fish, reptiles, etc. Bacteria... again how much feed and bedding do you suppose bacteria and parasites require? Suppose they could simply hitch a ride on a floating log or two?

Plants... don't know much bout gardening do ya? Seeds can survive fire, ice, and a multitude of other adversities that would render many other living things extinct.

Extinction.... now there's a part of the flood not considered by most. God says he rendered man extinct except for Noah and his family. To my knowledge he does not state the types of animals and plants that were rendered extinct... 

Because you consider the Bible to be fairy tales you limit your knowledge of the world that once was. You ASSUME man is now at the  apex of his existence. Christ stated that the Last Days would be as the days of Noah were... and The Preacher stated that there is nothing new under the sun.

That means all that now is has been before. The Chinese had flying machines five thousand years ago, and the ancient Romans used steam power in their time....  and if you read Genesis and Samuel you would know that nuclear weapons existed long before the Germans ever did their first experiments in the thirties.

How small of a thing would it be to ensure that a few animals could be preserved alive through a worldwide flood? ... an obvious impossibility for those who choose to believe in the vanity of their own  imaginations.     


....oh yeah, ... you mentioned something about them eating....  I'll answer you with a question; how long was it that Noah waited after the dove did not return and he let the animals out of the Ark?

Let me add some personal insight here: I have planted greens in mid April in Michigan and harvested them for the table and canning by mid May... fully 30 to 60 days sooner than what is KNOWN as their maturity time. I have planted tomatoes in early May and been slicing them for the table the second week of June. How fast do weeds or feed grasses mature under optimum soil conditions and optimum climatic conditions...? 


Like I said, I don't seek to change your mindset, that's up to you... but I will take the opportunity to render some 'foot n mouth' here n there.
 
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2011, 06:48:03 AM »

I have to disagree with you. Yes, if you went to that elevation now, it would freeze you and you would have no oxygen. Say the world did flood that high, then they would be at sea level with normal sea level temperatures and pressures. Sorry.

You disagree with me, or you have sources with scientific evidence that disagrees with me?
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2011, 07:00:28 AM »

Lol...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/I225Vcs3X0g" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/I225Vcs3X0g</a>
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 07:03:15 AM by Xerxes »
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mohamed_kalij

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2011, 11:00:50 AM »

You disagree with me, or you have sources with scientific evidence that disagrees with me?

I disagree with the claim that if the world were hypothetically flooded as mentioned in the bible, that the elevation above the tallest mountain would be cold with little atmosphere. Say ocean levels did rise that high, and a boat was floating on the surface of the water but above the tallest mountain, then the boat would be at the new sea level. The atmosphere would also float on the surface of the water which would raise the entire atmosphere of the earth. This would mean that it would provide the same thermal insulation at that level that it provides now at current sea level with similar pressures. Sorry I have to disagree with you even though we are arguing on the same side.

No matter the outcome, there are still a lot of reasons besides this one as to why the biblical flood was impossible. Several people on this thread have listed many with possibly hundreds left unsaid.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2011, 11:18:47 AM »

I disagree with the claim that if the world were hypothetically flooded as mentioned in the bible, that the elevation above the tallest mountain would be cold with little atmosphere. Say ocean levels did rise that high, and a boat was floating on the surface of the water but above the tallest mountain, then the boat would be at the new sea level. The atmosphere would also float on the surface of the water which would raise the entire atmosphere of the earth. This would mean that it would provide the same thermal insulation at that level that it provides now at current sea level with similar pressures. Sorry I have to disagree with you even though we are arguing on the same side.

No matter the outcome, there are still a lot of reasons besides this one as to why the biblical flood was impossible. Several people on this thread have listed many with possibly hundreds left unsaid.


I don't mind you disagreeing with me, and you may be right, but I'm asking if you have scientific sources to back what you're saying. I'd like to look into it so I don't make this claim wrongly in the future. I've heard this argument about the lack of oxygen and freezing a few times from atheists. I'm curious as to who is right, you or the several atheists who make this claim, such as in the video above.
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mohamed_kalij

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2011, 11:46:31 AM »


It is a fact that many animals share common ancestors, and that mutations do occur forming sub-spieces of the original. Its also proven that animals can be reproduced through cloning via surrogate. I could be mistaken but I'd bet that DNA takes up a lot less room and doesn't require nearly as much feed and bedding as the actual animals themselves do.


Wow. So your reply to the logistic impossibility of two of every animal is that an old drunk from the bronze age is going to take DNA samples of every animal on the planet, store them properly in a refrigerated environment, then clone and redistribute the basic animals to then have them evolve? Also, they are to evolve in less than 6000 years? Again, wow.


Furthermore, while land animals would not be able to survive in water, water dwelling animals would, not to mention fish, reptiles, etc. Bacteria... again how much feed and bedding do you suppose bacteria and parasites require? Suppose they could simply hitch a ride on a floating log or two?


Water dwelling animals would die do to many factors including changing temperatures, changing water salinity, the surfacing being further away from photosynthetic plants that normally feed on sunlight. Reptiles??? Yes, some float around in the water, but most would die in the ocean due to lack of natural habitat.


Plants... don't know much bout gardening do ya? Seeds can survive fire, ice, and a multitude of other adversities that would render many other living things extinct.


So he is going to replant all plants before he clones the animals? How long would it take the biosphere to get going again with proper plant life if all you had were seeds? This is impossible for one man and his family to accomplish. What would they eat while waiting for plants to grow? Animal DNA samples?


Extinction.... now there's a part of the flood not considered by most. God says he rendered man extinct except for Noah and his family. To my knowledge he does not state the types of animals and plants that were rendered extinct... 


Yes it does. Gen 7:2-4
"Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”

Notice the word "every"? And to top it all off, he did this in seven days.

Because you consider the Bible to be fairy tales you limit your knowledge of the world that once was. You ASSUME man is now at the  apex of his existence. Christ stated that the Last Days would be as the days of Noah were... and The Preacher stated that there is nothing new under the sun.


This story is what originally made me start questioning the validity of the bible which eventually led to my atheism.

By assuming something is correct without question limits your knowledge. Where would our space program be if we decided not to question the Flat Earth theory, or the Geocentric theory, or the Creation theory? Each questioning of the assumed facts brought us closer to understanding how the world actually works rather than filling that gap in our knowledge with the bible or god and making no further advancements. I assume nothing. I draw the best conclusion I can based on available evidence. I also change my opinion about an event or how the world works when presented with new evidence. Your assumption that the bible is correct blocks acceptance of new evidence which limits your ability to learn.
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mohamed_kalij

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2011, 11:52:33 AM »


I don't mind you disagreeing with me, and you may be right, but I'm asking if you have scientific sources to back what you're saying. I'd like to look into it so I don't make this claim wrongly in the future. I've heard this argument about the lack of oxygen and freezing a few times from atheists. I'm curious as to who is right, you or the several atheists who make this claim, such as in the video above.

I have been looking into this a little more. I would like to change my opinion of your claim from "not correct" to "I don't know". Ignore my posts about the atmosphere and freezing. I hate it when I'm wrong :)
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SimpleMan

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 09:26:20 PM »

I find it interesting that one can discuss religion, which deals with the META physical, and apply to it the laws of which we know of the physical realm. If one accepts God, whether that person be someone with views such as Xerxes, or someone like me who accepts Catholicism, then one must accept that things happen beyond our physical realm, and the laws of physics as we know them do not apply. To say that the Biblical flood couldn't happen, or that Noah couldn't have fit that many animals onto a boat, because physically it is impossible, is fine if you're a total atheist. If you accept God, whether you're Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, or any variation thereof, then such statements are silly.   
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Baby Hitler

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 09:37:46 PM »

I have been looking into this a little more. I would like to change my opinion of your claim from "not correct" to "I don't know".
Now if only you could do the same thing on the existence of God.
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Tiny

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 10:01:40 PM »

What does it matter whether it (the biblical flood) happened or not, the question is why would God do this? What's the purpose? Why not just drown everyone/everything and start over. For that matter why start over, if his first creation turned out so bad why let them start again? If God is all knowing, he knew this was going to happen right? What's the purpose of creating man?
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2011, 10:26:17 PM »

If you accept God, whether you're Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, or any variation thereof, then such statements are silly.   


Many who believe great intelligence/consciousness is behind the Universe do not buy into *biblical* extraordinary claims when there isn't a shred of evidence to prove them. To expect someone who isn't a Christian to accept extraordinary claims without evidence is silly.


Lake Erie alone testifies of several reasons the global flood never happened 4,000 some years ago.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2011, 10:30:04 PM »

What does it matter whether it (the biblical flood) happened or not, the question is why would God do this? What's the purpose? Why not just drown everyone/everything and start over. For that matter why start over, if his first creation turned out so bad why let them start again? If God is all knowing, he knew this was going to happen right? What's the purpose of creating man?


Good questions.


I'm glad the definition of God is so much different in other cultures. The East has much greater views on the nature of God, etc., in my opinion. Often times the God of the Bible seems just like a man, and an unstable unintelligent bi-polar one at that.
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mohamed_kalij

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2011, 11:59:44 PM »

I find it interesting that one can discuss religion, which deals with the META physical, and apply to it the laws of which we know of the physical realm. If one accepts God, whether that person be someone with views such as Xerxes, or someone like me who accepts Catholicism, then one must accept that things happen beyond our physical realm, and the laws of physics as we know them do not apply. To say that the Biblical flood couldn't happen, or that Noah couldn't have fit that many animals onto a boat, because physically it is impossible, is fine if you're a total atheist. If you accept God, whether you're Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, or any variation thereof, then such statements are silly.   

What is the "META physical"? What proof do you have for it's existence? What properties does it have? Why would we assume the flood story takes place in any other realm when it mentions several times that the event was on this planet with no mention of another realm? An important piece to leave out. Besides, even if you could prove other realms of existence, it wouldn't matter. The flood was specifically designed to wipe out god's screw-ups that he made on Earth in this realm.

BTW, it was physically impossible, and I am an atheist (and very proud of it). If god existed and was as powerful as you say, then why doesn't he change my mind? I am open to evidence. All he has to do is strike lightning two times in the same spot exactly one minute apart during a clear day whenever asked. I will accept that as proof for my own beliefs. Until then, from what I have seen so far, belief that any god exists has the same likelihood as lepercons or unicorns.

What does it matter whether it (the biblical flood) happened or not, the question is why would God do this? What's the purpose? Why not just drown everyone/everything and start over. For that matter why start over, if his first creation turned out so bad why let them start again? If God is all knowing, he knew this was going to happen right? What's the purpose of creating man?

This is also a very good argument. I was just looking at this from a physics perspective. I forgot the moral perspective. You're very right. If god were real, and it was the god of the bible, I wouldn't side with him. I'd pick any side that opposed him. He is a complete monster who loves all kinds of horrible things and is fractally incompetent (means incompetent when looking at the big picture of his work, but also incompetent no matter what part you zoom in on and no matter how close you zoom).

I'm so glad that he more than likely does not exist. I say "more than likely" because nobody can have absolute proof of non-existence. I am 99.999% sure he does not exist, but I would be stupid to claim absolute knowledge and be completely closed off to proof.

Now if only you could do the same thing on the existence of God.

I have studied the god existence question intently nearly all my life. The majority of those years I was a believer. I'm only 30, but after that long with no evidence, it is safe to say I won't find any. So I rely on others to show me their evidence, to which I will always listen.
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SimpleMan

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2011, 02:37:26 AM »

I am a pompous *** and and far too self-important. I am smarter than anyone on this forum, hell, anywhere, and if you dare to believe in anything I don't, you're an idot. I think calling myself atheist gives me some sort of credibility and impresses my friends who think likewise like so many sheep, and I'm very proud of it).

There, I fixed it for you.

Change your insulting and inappropriate avatar, and your arrogant attitude if you want anyone to take what you have to say seriously.

I'd like to add, for Mohammed whatever he calls himself, that if you're such a proud atheist, why the bloody hell do you bother to post in the religion thread? I mean, really, if you have no interest IN religion, why bother talking about it? Are you so pompous, so full of yourself, that you think the nonsense you post here will change anyone's mind?

I dislike sports. I have no interest in them. For those reasons, you won't see me posting in the sports threads. I fail to see why people who take such pride in calling themselves atheists don't take the same approach to subjects regarding religion.
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SimpleMan

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Re: "...and it rained for forty days and forty nights..."
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2011, 02:52:00 AM »


Many who believe great intelligence/consciousness is behind the Universe do not buy into *biblical* extraordinary claims when there isn't a shred of evidence to prove them. To expect someone who isn't a Christian to accept extraordinary claims without evidence is silly.


There are many, probably more, "extraordinary claims" in NON Christian texts than there are in the Bible.
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