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[MonroeMonkey]

Linking a PDF file is not discussing the subject matter.

Less, you're nothing more than a troll. I'll resume these discussions with people who address the subject matters.

[Forsythia]

So Less, as I understand it you refuse to answer Xerxes points because you have faith that you are correct in your beliefs.  If so would you convict a man of a crime because you believed him to be guilty or would you want evidence first?

Another thing you have to take into account is that the "Jesus" story was repeated at least 4 times before the before his birth.  Look at the story of Horus or Krishna.  They all show striking similarities and they came before your bible.

[LessGovernment]

Here's the "subject matter" of the thread, that me the "troll", is derailing...

"I think every christian and non-christian should read Ehrman's works, if you care about the true history behind Jesus and the New Testament scriptures concerning him."

Presumptively, you have started a thread(after you and I have this established history) whereby you think the people that frequent this forum/topic have/share an INTEREST in the true history behind Jesus and the New Testament scriptures concerning him. 

Your post says: "if you care" - now, had I not replied at all(to which you clearly TOOK THE BAIT), this thread would have less than twp dozen views.

Your next statement says: "Ehrman doesn't take any sides, he only shows the history we have. People are free to choose where they stand on Jesus after taking into account a realistic historical view of him."

So, you've basically have lauded and recommended an author you admire, and told your viewing audience that they "are free to choose where they stand on Jesus after taking into account a realistic historical view of him" - to which I would say we are all "free to choose where [we] stand on Jesus" any time we want; without taking anything you recommend into account.

I then recommended a video by Paul Washer that emboldens the faith of sincere believers who may be weary from battling the likes of guys like you who come along and attempt to kill their faith; like a troll I might add.

What I have accomplished is, increasing the number of views to this thread by better than 20-fold in calling you out on your childish demeanor, whereby you attempt to hide behind your claim of higher intellect, with a healthy dose of a haughty attitude about how "learned" you are with respect to this supposed Bible-debunking historic method.

The truth is, you stand virtually alone in you exposed positions of denying God's existence, and mocking fundamentalists who DO(or may be inclined to entertain my perspective) that we ought to not only maintain our faith in the TRUE historical account we already have in Jesus, the Gospel accounts, and His deity - and - Christians also ought to give God's Word the benefit of the doubt that the literal 6-day creation account, and the worldwide flood account are ALSO true ... and truthfully ... guys like you who come along with you mockery, only manifest how TRUE the scriptures are, when it comes to passages like 2 Peter 3:3 "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,"

The truth of the matter is, you have yet to receive ONE "thank you" that I have read for having started this thread; and recommending to your non-responsive/silent audience that they "choose where they stand on Jesus AFTER they take into account" what you obviously "care about"...which is debunking the Bible with "great swelling words of vanity, [that] allure through [excusing] the lusts of the flesh," - such as homosexual behavior(as discussed earlier in other threads) and all the other things you believe are NOT sins against a Creator.

Your philosophical viewpoint is duly noted, I have addressed it in my own manner without falling into your trap - and - in my humble opinion; I think you have no audience here ... so ... you best take your hobby to an atheistic website, or and agnostic one; where you will be in better company.     

[Forsythia]

So admit that he trapped you and could prove you wrong at every turn.  Well at least you admit it now.

[LessGovernment]

he didn't trap me, he laid a trap....suppose I start a thread with subject matter he.knows nothing about...and have a whole host of information I am holding back to refute all his responses....what would you call that???

I call it childish...he is faith-bashing, trying to upset people....and FAILING at it...

[Forsythia]

So you're saying that using logic, scientific method, and factual counter points is laying a trap?  To me that sounds like being a solid debater.

[LessGovernment]

So...it's not logical that mankind has a conscience, given to him by His Creator...and...without paraphrasing/plagarizing the PDF(which I am more than capable of doing); he and I should engage in a tit-for-tat on the historical development of the story of Jesus.
 
Why don't we just cut to the chase and call me a fundamentalist, and him a de-converted naysayer who revels in derailing other people's walk of faith?

What are you defending Forsythia, him?  Sounds like I whipped him pretty good and exposed his.TRUE motives once again.

[Forsythia]

So...it's not logical that mankind has a conscience, given to him by His Creator...and...without paraphrasing/plagarizing the PDF(which I am more than capable of doing); he and I should engage in a tit-for-tat on the historical development of the story of Jesus.
 
Why don't we just cut to the chase and call me a fundamentalist, and him a de-converted naysayer who revels in derailing other people's walk of faith?

What are you defending Forsythia, him?  Sounds like I whipped him pretty good and exposed his.TRUE motives once again.

I don't think he's trying to "derail their faith" I think he's trying to get them to question it.  I see nothing wrong in questioning your faith.  I question mine all the time and it only helps to make it stronger. 

He presents factual evidence and asks for a response.  When your response is nothing but "my faith tells me so", it doesn't make for a good debate, and shoots holes in your argument.

Faith is great, but you have to understand that there are a ton of skeptics out there and the skeptics are growing daily.  I have known more people to stop beliveing in religion than to start....

[LessGovernment]

If his stuff was "factual", Christianity would have been dismissed centuries ago by a majority of humanity...yet it has not.

There is also plenty of "factual" evidence on the contrary...now, shall I quote the scriptures(as he does) that encourages/discourages the believer with respect to questioning their faith...and why it is not spiritually healthy, profitable, or productive....as well as the chief ploy/game of Satan to disrupt God's good work of spreading the Gospel?

[Forsythia]

The reason why religion hasnt disappeared is because man needs to have something to believe in.  For many it's too frightening to think of death as nothing more than nonexistence.  It's built into us through evolution.

Go ahead and quote scriptures.  I say your book cannot be the word of god because man wrote it.  Theres a lot of good lessons in there, but it's not the word of god.  Not to mention the fact the concept of your christ was stolen from at least 4 other religions....

[LessGovernment]

Here is how the game is played, for the record - since of course - Xerxes is a self-professed DE-CONVERTED Christian(which makes guys like him ripe to infiltrate a church with his vast knowledge, and advance heresies and paralyze their good works):  It's a DANGEROUS game guys like Bart and Xerxes play in the face of the Holy Creator - and I could only hope Xerxes is weighing that now - that is why he attempted to changed his tone from mockery to supposed intellect; because Jesus Christ might just be the REAL DEAL(do your own research on Bible preservation from an "accredited" seminary like Tennessee Temple or Maranatha Baptist Bible college)

Be careful before you just jump on the bandwagon with itching ears, hearing what you want to hear about the Bible and Christ being one big hoax - It is the hope of Christians that many of these modern day mockers/scoffers personally wouldn't want to give an answer for their attempts to trip up believers while claiming they KNOW the same scriptures "inside and out"; and their moral instructions to mankind and believers condemning certain thoughts, words and deeds!

Hell probably burns a little hotter for those who abandoned the faith, and went off to hunt/capture others into their camp.

No doubt hypocrites hurt the faith, but Christians are supposed to follow after Christ - and not fallible man.  Christians are supposed to compare themselves to the Word, not other men.  I know Xerxes loves to quote the scriptures I am in violation of as I admonish him - but - if he had the credibility to do so, he would have to have the Spirit within him to understand why I step in and buffet him, and he would also have to admit those scriptures are then TRUTHFUL and BINDING - and that opens a whole can of worms to his assertions that it should ALL be suspect then(because the principles can easily be applied to non-believers(i.e. those "good lessons" you mentioned)).  He can't cherry pick that which he bashes to win an argument - either it is TRUE, or it isn't - and that's my position.

As far as quoting scripture goes: we'll start here ...

Jude(half brother of Jesus) Chapter 1 verse 3 "...it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Jud 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Yep, powerful and an extremely offensive WARNING to those professing they were Christians ONCE, and then abandon the faith for some higher intellect - who then come back and direct their ATTACKS at new or wavering believers living in difficult economic times(preying upon them for JOY and self-rationalization) while believers are not finding comfort in their faith alone.

And like I mentioned; people like this then often enter into churches, and upset their good works... 

In my estimation, God abhors people like that; and I likewise have very little respect for them - and I am inclined to SHAME them for their attempts to harm believers while in their professed "advantageous" position of being "learned" in these matters.

Jud 1:17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

INSTRUCTION:
Jud 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jud 1:21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen

It's Xerxes choice to stay this course, or abandon it.  He knows I frequent this forum - and out of compassion for the READERS(some of who I know PERSONALLY from living there), I step in and slap him down because I know his motives are not pure, and not for prosperity sake ... Now, do I have compassion for Xerxes; of course I do - but, I will address him only in the manner that he has published his position of being a de-converted open mocker, and denier of the things he knows I(and many others) believe are TRUE.

Got anything else for me, guys?

[Forsythia]

But you are following the word of man.  The bible was written by man even though you believe it to be inspired by your god.  Since man is fallable cannot the bible be corrupt?  You have also failed to mention the scriptures that werent included in the bible.

Also can you address the similarities between your christ and those of religious prohpets from religions thag came thousands of years before yours?

[LessGovernment]

Overlapping similarities in a religious "system" is no factual proof that The prophecy wasn't prophesied verbatim as recorded in the Old Testament, wasn't fulfilled on time by Jesus with a .1000 percent batting average; nor is it proof Jesus did not rise from the dead, wasn't seen by over 500 witness, and didn't ascend into the clouds right before their eyes.

The fact that so many Christian denominations would arise/split, and become/be found in time to be nothing more than centrally organized for the purposes of only serving MONEY(and eventually marry the state in hopes to spoil politics to their favor) by using the story of Jesus lends more credibility to the fact that the story, and the words and eyewitness accounts contained in the CLOSED cannon(66 books) are TRUE!!!

Duh - obviously men were God's instruments to "pen" the words - but you cannot know the SOURCE of their words; you just doubt them.  What are the source of YOUR thoughts/imaginations/words?  Regardless, my point(and Sammy's point) remains valid; it's UNPROVEABLE - and, I might add - the intellectual naysayers are of an arrogant self-aggrandizing spirit, and in the SEVERE MINORITY of those who believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and was the Lamb of God who came to take upon Himself the sins of the whole world.

Considering that the Bible is corrupt certainly serves as but one more excuse NOT to adhere to its moral dictates; I get that - and I am not favor of forcing anyone to do so; your side just THINKS our side aims to...and your scared that we're right.

To each his own, man - I am for Liberty.  Do whatever you want, believe whatever you want - just don't force it down my kids' throat with TAX DOLLARS should I choose to teach them fundamentalist Christianity in my home.

This is why we have the Rule of Law in this country; so you harm not another man's life, interfere with his liberty, or damage his property without compensation ... and our founders made sure we do not live in a theocracy despite their reverence for a Supreme Being...the Golden Rule, man...the Golden Rule...

[MonroeMonkey]

Less, you're not slapping anyone down. I could go point by point on your last posts and point out the nauseating use of logical problems; but as much as you ramble that would take me a good two hours. Those who refuse to see past or question their beliefs may agree with you. I was there once and I know how it is to willfully close your eyes and ears, and say, "Blah! Blah! The bible says it, I believe it! It cannot be wrong or contradict itself!"

But the fact is, the Bible has major problems in light of the historical method, as Erhman points out. And being this is a thread about Erhman, we can discuss the points in his books. You're attacking the MAN and saying his motives are evil. You're trying to Poison the Well (which is a logical fallacy), which is nothing more than an Ad Hominem, used as a Red Herring. Less, your method is pathetic. You're not exposing anything, but using this fallacious logic of, "He must be evil and have evil motives because he uses the historical method on my bible; therefore, I cannot take his arguments seriously!"


Let's discuss this bible in light of the historical method. Every time I try to you run and avoid it. Again, let's get to the real topic matter, as opposed to poisoning the well, by attempting to discredit an argument by attacking the person and their so-called motives. Let's stick to the argument and not the person. You've been in politics too long, perhaps... One thing you read in logic books is the over abuse of logical fallacies among politicians. Christians and politicians are masters of the fallacy, and they don't even know they're using faulty logic; although, some deceptive pastors use it and know they are.



Again, Less, address this argument.

Mark and Matthew are the two earliest gospels, according to Christian and non-Christian scholars. In these two gospels you find Jesus speaking of a literal coming of the Son of Man, in the clouds, in power, and with the holy angels.

Let's look at the scriptures. Jesus is very clear the Son of Man is coming to earth soon, and some alive will see him with their own eyes.


Matthew 10:23 - When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

In Mark 8-9, these two verses are side by side, and remember, there were no chapter and verse to divide these in the original, so they flow into each other, in reality, and are not divided by the chapter number.

For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”

Here is what Jesus says to the Jewish leaders in Mark 14:

But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

In the earliest gospel, Jesus flat out tells the Jewish leaders THEY will see him coming with the clouds of heaven. BUT after all those men died, and it did NOT happen, Luke, who may have used Mark as a source of his copying, CHANGED this. Many scholars believe Mark was a source used for copying, used by the author of Matthew and Luke.

Same passage in Luke 22:

“If You are the Christ, tell us.” But He said to them, “If I tell you, you will by no means believe. And if I also ask you,you will by no means answer Me or let Me go. Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God.” Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?” So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”

What!? Now the Jewish leaders are not going to see him coming in the clouds? It was changed to cover up the fact these men died and never saw him coming in the clouds.

The early Jesus of Mark and Matthew stated he would return and rule as the Son of Man, within that generation. But the later gospels change those verses! Luke even says, "The kingdom is not coming... it's within you..." Within you? And the latest gospel of John never mentions those verses about the Son of Man and his return in that generation.

Now, to the historical method. Was their really an apocalyptic movement in Jesus's day that believed the Son of Man would literally return to earth soon, and rule in a Kingdom where the reversal of fortunes would take place? YES. Was that same movement teaching the same thing Jesus was? YES. Look at even John the Baptist, who Jesus didn't keep company with before his baptism. You find John the Baptist uses the same language as Jesus. He speaks in parables, etc. All common the apocalyptic movement.

You see an evolution of Jesus when comparing the earliest New Testament manuscripts with the most recent. You find him moving away from the Son of Man, who would soon return in glory, to the Lord of the Heart, who would save even the gentiles.

[LessGovernment]

You once were where I am now, and were blind? 

I would say you still are!

Scriptures are spiritually discerned by BELIVERS and SEEKERS with a sincere heart for the things of God...and for you to assert yiu know them, or knew them backwards and fowards...and just MIGHT give them their due reverence IF someone can prove they are factually and historically proven to be accurate is dishonest above all else.

Give me a break!  You've met your match...man, how it must frustrate the hell out of you that I won't take the bait!

By the way, I am not "in politics"; I got my *** kicked when I lived out there...I just support the idea of Christian statesmen who reverence the Creator our founders did holding public office once again.

Suffice it to say, I can't imagine you really get satisfaction out of this Christian-bashing hobby of yours...but if you do, enjoy! 

See ya in the next thread!