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[LessGovernment]

There is no argument to "win", Xerxes; therefore I do not need your admonition to seek training in any sort of logic.

Majority opinion the world over BELIEVES in a Creator.  Personally, I believe it is Jesus Christ - others may call the Creator by another name, BUT, their attitude is what matters - and is demonstrable in their HUMILITY towards those equally created.

Paul Washer nailed it - you expend WAY TOO MUCH energy studying and blogging as to silence your own conscience ... and that is a "tell" ... as PREDICTED by the alleged forgery you cite.

You are a scoffer, plain and simple - and that "forgery", irrespective of the date if it was forged; said you would deny both the creation and the flood, mock the second coming, AND cite uniformitarianism even though evolution theory had not been created.

I don't need "skill" to defeat you; I am not out to "defeat" you - just DEFEND what I already believe for the sake/benefit of OTHERS you openly mock here for subscribing to the Christian faith.

As far as "Educate yourself. Get a hobby. Get a clue?", even though that was addressed at Sammy, it is YOU who spends way too much time here in a pseudo-intellectual exercise in futility because the obvious surrounds you ... a belief in God by humanity is not going anywhere...and although men will corrupt the PURE faith in the holy Deity, and deceive many; some like you will use that as your excuse to rationalize away an inevitable day of judgment upon EACH created soul.

[MonroeMonkey]

...I do not need your admonition to seek training in any sort of logic.

Yes, you do, and your next sentence proves it.

Majority opinion the world over BELIEVES in a Creator. 

Appeal to Majority. If the majority of the world becomes Muslim, does that mean there's a greater chance Allah exists and that Gabriel seized Mohammad in a cave?

Personally, I believe it is Jesus Christ - others may call the Creator by another name, BUT, their attitude is what matters - and is demonstrable in their HUMILITY towards those equally created.

Humility is not a demonstrable trait among many Christians. Some Christians are humble, just as some Buddhists are, etc., but a belief in a Creator does NOT produce humility in anyone. Humility is a state of being which is purposely cultivated through practice.

Buddhist are nontheistic. They do not believe in a Creator God. They believe things come into being through the nature of nature itself. Those Buddhists which radiate humility are the ones who cultivate it through discipline.

Paul Washer nailed it - you expend WAY TOO MUCH energy studying and blogging as to silence your own conscience ... and that is a "tell" ... as PREDICTED by the alleged forgery you cite.

Looks like Paul Washer has the delusion of thinking he knows what others are really thinking, when they're not. I'm sometimes told I don't believe as Christians do because I'm kicking against my fear of Hell and judgment. It's laughable how these men think they know what others are thinking but believe the world is merely 6,000 years old. Purely delusional. There is a cure for this delusion though...

As far as "Educate yourself. Get a hobby. Get a clue?", even though that was addressed at Sammy, it is YOU who spends way too much time here in a pseudo-intellectual exercise in futility because the obvious surrounds you ... a belief in God by humanity is not going anywhere...and although men will corrupt the PURE faith in the holy Deity, and deceive many; some like you will use that as your excuse to rationalize away an inevitable day of judgment upon EACH created soul.

The judgment of Yahweh or Allah? Which one will I stand before to give an account?

Oh, and saying pseudo-intellectual doesn't add to your case. I use scholarship to formulate my claims, so if you wish to consider such as pseudo-intellectualism, you do so, but it doesn't add anything to your argument.

[sammy]

Geez... If you were a cookie, you'd be a grumpy cookie!





How's that for perceptiveness? 




Anyways... Can we get back on topic? I'm sure LessGov can bring it somewhat back to topic by responding to my last post...

That's close to the best cookie I've ever seen!

[LessGovernment]

You don't like my "appeal to majority"? 

Kent Hovind doesn't like the "appeal to majority" argument from scientists either ... what's your point?  I'm not stupid, I realize majority opinion is not always right - BUT - we are talking about a BELIEF in a Creator; and MOST PEOPLE the planet over believe in one.

Once again, it seems to me NO argument is winnable/point anyone else makes is valid because you will always have an out...and you call that "intellect"?  I call it an escape hatch.

a belief in a Creator does NOT produce humility in anyone - oops!  You forgot an adjective there ... "SINCERE" ... as in a sincere belief in a Supreme Being/Creator God; that does produce DEMONSTRABLE humility in individual believers ... we KNOW people can fake and act, we have already established that; the idea you are proposing, that humility can be a trait developed through training and life experience/social engineering is beyond ridiculous!!!

That statement by you, about cultivating humility, is the dumbest thing you have ever said; and you have unmasked the utter vanity of ALL your studies on humanity, behavior, religion, science, and psychology - you converts to atheism guys are all one big joke living in your own created denial of reality...you have a SOUL...you have a CONSCIENCE...there is NO scientific exlanation for the origin of it other than the existence of a Creator; and guys way smarter than you, who HATE rules and government, have routinely ceded that point to the MAJORITY long ago.

Humility, you NEVER KNOW when it's coming ... isn't God GREAT!!!

Your "use of scholarship" is likewise "majority opinion" amongst you fools that whine incessantly that there is no God ... seriously ... in the insane madness of your simple bias you render yourself unable to realize that you yourself are far from "winning" any debate debunking the existence of Jesus Christ, His miracles, or His ressurection...let alone a meeting with judgement once you, I, or anyone draws their last breath.

Give it up already...get a job, and get off this forum...if you're that smart you ought to be more productive with your "free time"...I'm on break at work, unwinding from work, or on my first cup of coffee usually when I peek in on you...seriously, is this ALL you do all day; pick on people of faith?  What a waste.

[MonroeMonkey]

This type of hate is what a faith in a creator produces? Is this the humility that comes with believing in Less's god? I'm reminded of the verse: Because of you My name is blasphemed among the unbelievers.

Less, you're completely self deluded if you think you have any part with the spirit Jesus speaks of. Didn't even Paul command you be kind to unbelievers? You ignore their arguments and attack them with your carnal sarcasms. You believe you walk in the Spirit and bear the fruits of the Spirit, which you are commanded to abide in?

You don't like my "appeal to majority"? 

Kent Hovind doesn't like the "appeal to majority" argument from scientists either ... what's your point?  I'm not stupid, I realize majority opinion is not always right - BUT - we are talking about a BELIEF in a Creator; and MOST PEOPLE the planet over believe in one.

Again, that doesn't provide any evidence for your extraordinary claims.

Once again, it seems to me NO argument is winnable/point anyone else makes is valid because you will always have an out...and you call that "intellect"?  I call it an escape hatch.

Nice try. You're digging hard. You've run from every argument I've presented. You avoid the argument, for the most part, and red herring with ad hominems.

a belief in a Creator does NOT produce humility in anyone - oops!  You forgot an adjective there ... "SINCERE" ... as in a sincere belief in a Supreme Being/Creator God; that does produce DEMONSTRABLE humility in individual believers ... we KNOW people can fake and act, we have already established that; the idea you are proposing, that humility can be a trait developed through training and life experience/social engineering is beyond ridiculous!!!

That statement by you, about cultivating humility, is the dumbest thing you have ever said; and you have unmasked the utter vanity of ALL your studies on humanity, behavior, religion, science, and psychology - you converts to atheism guys are all one big joke living in your own created denial of reality...you have a SOUL...you have a CONSCIENCE...there is NO scientific exlanation for the origin of it other than the existence of a Creator; and guys way smarter than you, who HATE rules and government, have routinely ceded that point to the MAJORITY long ago.

I can see why that would seem absurd to you, for you seem to have never known humility, apart from crying before your god, asking it to save your wretched soul from its hell. You're an example of a god believer who is not at all humble, but abides in the pride of the ego, for you don't cultivate a spirit of kindness and humility in yourself, which is also an evidence you don't partake in the spirit of the one you call Christ.

Humility, you NEVER KNOW when it's coming ... isn't God GREAT!!!

Sick. Seriously, that type of thinking is disturbing.

Your "use of scholarship" is likewise "majority opinion" amongst you fools that whine incessantly that there is no God ... seriously ... in the insane madness of your simple bias you render yourself unable to realize that you yourself are far from "winning" any debate debunking the existence of Jesus Christ, His miracles, or His ressurection...let alone a meeting with judgement once you, I, or anyone draws their last breath.

Again, I'm not an atheist. And saying that adds nothing to your arguments.

How about you actually discuss the arguments Bart Erhman brings up, being this thread is about his works, as opposed to displaying your contentious hate with the abuse of logical fallacies.

Give it up already...get a job, and get off this forum...if you're that smart you ought to be more productive with your "free time"...I'm on break at work, unwinding from work, or on my first cup of coffee usually when I peek in on you...seriously, is this ALL you do all day; pick on people of faith?  What a waste.

Less, as can be seen, you spend just as much time on this forum as I do, and make more long winded posts. This is a laughable case of a double standard. Judge me and judge yourself when it comes to using this little insignificant forum, as you call it.

And you have no idea what I do with my work time or free time, so to comment, as if you know, only makes you look more self deluded. But again, another ad hominem with no basis in relation to this thread matter. I'd expect more from a follower of Jesus Christ. But then again, you're attitude and manner on here show you're not a follower of Jesus Christ. And before you say it, remember, a little leaven leavens the whole lump, as that bible says.

[sammy]

This type of hate is what a faith in a creator produces? Is this the humility that comes with believing in Less's god? I'm reminded of the verse: Because of you My name is blasphemed among the unbelievers.

Less, you're completely self deluded if you think you have any part with the spirit Jesus speaks of. Didn't even Paul command you be kind to unbelievers? You ignore their arguments and attack them with your carnal sarcasms. You believe you walk in the Spirit and bear the fruits of the Spirit, which you are commanded to abide in?



Again, that doesn't provide any evidence for your extraordinary claims.


Nice try. You're digging hard. You've run from every argument I've presented. You avoid the argument, for the most part, and red herring with ad hominems.


I can see why that would seem absurd to you, for you seem to have never known humility, apart from crying before your god, asking it to save your wretched soul from its hell. You're an example of a god believer who is not at all humble, but abides in the pride of the ego, for you don't cultivate a spirit of kindness and humility in yourself, which is also an evidence you don't partake in the spirit of the one you call Christ.


Sick. Seriously, that type of thinking is disturbing.


Again, I'm not an atheist. And saying that adds nothing to your arguments.

How about you actually discuss the arguments Bart Erhman brings up, being this thread is about his works, as opposed to displaying your contentious hate with the abuse of logical fallacies.


Less, as can be seen, you spend just as much time on this forum as I do, and make more long winded posts. This is a laughable case of a double standard. Judge me and judge yourself when it comes to using this little insignificant forum, as you call it.

And you have no idea what I do with my work time or free time, so to comment, as if you know, only makes you look more self deluded. But again, another ad hominem with no basis in relation to this thread matter. I'd expect more from a follower of Jesus Christ. But then again, you're attitude and manner on here show you're not a follower of Jesus Christ. And before you say it, remember, a little leaven leavens the whole lump, as that bible says.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged". Just sayin'.

[LessGovernment]

poked ya pretty good there, eh Xerxes?

The very idea that you have wasted a great deal of time trying to defeat the undefeatable, or, prove the unprovable is quite offensive to you, isn't it?

Too bad for you I can laugh at myself as a "fallen sinner"...

Don't try to bait me into acting Christian, or, conveying the Gospel message in the "proper way"(that only well studied mockers/scoffers/rejecters KNOW); that won't happen - you've chosen your "side" - and that is YOUR decision, and you can OWN it.

I am where I am in my "walk" with the Creator; and to have some guy like you come along and tell me I am not doing it right, or behaving in a Christlike manner is nothing that you can back up - but - you're welcome to try, and FAIL.

Don't blame others for your choosing to blashpheme something that you don't believe exists; I mean c'mon - of all your insults and attempts to slam my "logic" and then you try to pin your unbelief on MY words/expression - that is a total disconnect, how do you reconcile that with yourself?

I have only obeyed the scriptures in that I have not answered you according to your folly - I don't respond directly to your challenges that I prove creation, the flood, or that God exists scientifically...as far as my carnal sarcasm...it is no great or heinous sin to have such a gift with my use of the English language that puts you in your place...call them ad hominems or red herrings, the question you should be asking yourself is "why" do you come back for more - or - stay on the offensive in ripping on Biblical Christianity?

At my discretion; I will answer whatever, however, and whenever I choose - I could get on your case for a month straight, or disappear for 5 months; either way, for you to carry on with your unsubstantiated garbage called secular humanism, directed primarily towards the community I can only assume you live in currently, lends more to the idea that you are living in lunacy - not me.   

Does the Bible call people names(fools, blind, willingly ignorant)?  Did Jesus refer to them spiritual leaders rather harshly in Matthew 24?  I think so!!!

So, now you're an agnostic who wants me to change my tune in order to help you with your struggle?  Your insults spurned all my rebuttles.  I don't mock or insult well studied expositors/teachers of God's Word - you do!  That's my HUMILITY in a nutshell.  I do however, criticize and have anger(not compassion) for false teachers, and, I call those who say there is NO God fools.

Now, you can pretend you're "searching" for the true God; and, you've only recently scratched Jesus Christ's name off your list(and that may be temporary) - but - I'll call you out on that all day.  You haven't once demonstrated an interest in ACCEPTING His Word as truth, and so; possessing all the vast knowledge you have whereby you attempt to scorn/scold me for being "mean" to you as an unbeliever, I dare say, gimme a break and quit trying to gain any credibility with anyone who has absorbed and still senses your mocking attitude thus far.

Dude, you're in the bad spot here; not me - I am rock-solid confident in my "delusional" belief system, and it serves me better that yours does; where you are now squirming incessantly trying to pretend you didn't launch an all out assault against the idea that the God of the Bible exists, He created this world in 6 literal 24 hour days approximately 6,000 years ago. and He judged it by a worldwide flood about 4400 years ago.

What you have told me is...if you are going to believe in any Supreme Being at all, it will be one of you own making.  Well, that is called an "idol", you KNOW that violates the first two commandments, and mankind has been doing that all throughout history because they KNOW God hates sin, and He will not let it enter into His heaven; and sinful mankind just doesn't want to give it up.

Manifestations of the fruits of the Spirit and the salvation/sanctification process are not brought on by flipping a switch, walking the isle at a Baptist/Revival invitation, or signing a believers card - each relationship with the Creator is individual, and intensely PERSONAL; even moreso than the numbers of hairs counted upon our heads are different, and our fingerprints don't match - it simply ain't random, nor is it collective(there's just too much diversity in His creation, I think that is why it is so popular to believe in God)...and as much as you wanna keep this up, I'll probably keep answering because I enjoy it when that well of truth just springs up inside me, and I am brought into remembrance of why I believed in the first place, and was prompted in my heart to keep studying to know more; and also, why it is important that I be ready to give an answer for the hope that dwells within me.

You only embolden me, Xerxes; you don't put me to shame.

 

[Forsythia]

So from what I got out of that, you don't answer the questions directly because your god tells you not to?

That's the problem Less.  If you could just recognize the fact you could be wrong, I think you'd actually be a little more tolerable.  Instead you insist you are right, and you are the only right on when you are an atheist in your own right....

[LessGovernment]

It's a FAITH - it is a belief system related to the origin of life; it CANNOT be demonstrated empirically or factually by the creationist, or the evolutionist.

It is not that I am "right", it is that I am CONFIDENT that I am right; and that is only between me and the Creator...and it is best to believe there exists a Creator, and, human government is subject to His laws.

If I proclaim that boldly/publicly that I believe, in an attempt to persuade others or strengthen their faith, tolerance is not the issue - history/morality/civility is. 

When the force of government is used against one side in this country, or, favors another insomuch as they do harm(coerce/intimidate/brainwash/imprison); in contrast to their stated purpose to DEFEND anyone's right to believe what they want to believe about origins/the existence of a Creator, then tolerance does become the issue.

I am not intolerant of atheists; I just think they're foolish...and when atheists or deniers of God run countries, liberty and freedom is no longer permissible in order to stamp out criticism and punishment of the government when they do harm to their own citizens. 

[Forsythia]

So you call atheists names because you have faith that you and only you are right.  As for these laws, where did you find them, or did they just come to you in a dream or something?  Hey I'm not knocking you, I have had plenty of spiritual experiences that I can't explain to people because they would look at me like I have two heads.  The difference between you and I is that I don't go out trying to convince people that I'm right and they're wrong.

Sometimes I wish the first rule of being a Christian was the same as the first rule of Fight Club....

[LessGovernment]

The BIBLE says: "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

This Bart character, who like Xerxes had the faith and then abandoned it for intelligence/science/"reality", has likewise been refuted in a manner that says he could be WRONG too.

http://www.christianlifetools.org/clientimages/28178/bartehrman.pdf

The issue is, like two rams butting heads; I believe, in summation, that Xerxes is confident that he has discovered through personal research that the Bible and the story of Jesus is a hoax that is used to deceive the world, and humans ought to be smarter than that - so - he is at war against Christianity and the moral restraints/laws that derive from a belief in moral absolutes that can be traced to any religion - especially the Judeo-Christian God.

I counter Xerxes by saying he simply doesn't know EVERYTHING, and, he could be wrong, and, the creation and the flood are entirely possible, and, God exists - did send His Son - and He will judge His creation one day on the basis of accepting or rejecting this history that has yet to be blotted out of history/humanity because(as they charge) it is a ridiculous story made up by stupid people who need a crutch, and/or the forgeries of smart deceptive people.

I am confident, personally, that the creation and the flood did happen; and, that people in government who profess a belief in the Judeo-Christian God while advancing tyranny upon the people of this Republic of a clear Christian foundation are people worthy of severe condemnation for their lies and hypocrisy; yet, people would rather mock the Bible and the flood of Noah's day than bounce lying politicians from legislative/lawmaking positions who MUST use the religion I believe in sincerely in order to gain credibility and get elected.

Anyway, I will not waste my time refuting every Bible/creation/flood denier - that is not my calling, my grasp thus far of our moral founding and throwing off a hypocritical church/state is what motivates me to engage in self-study of THAT topic; I do not study creation/evolution or Bible critics and their reasons for becoming atheists... but ... as a hobby, I will answer back many individuals who rip on Christianity and the PURE faith of our founders that aided us in the formation/birth of this nation when we got out from under the hypocritical parent government of Great Britain in the late 18th Century for the benefit and liberty and prosperity of others...especially at this time when the same class of liars/hypocrites/charlatan Judeo-Christian politicians have brought this nation to financial and immoral ruin as did the politicians/religionists of the Great Britain who lost many lands through stretching their Empire beyond what it could afford, and the Roman Empire before them. 

I believe there exists a identifiable cyclical pattern in history - and - anyone(like Xerxes and other mockers/scoffers) who aids those who revels in having our country lose/abandon its moral underpinnings to only help tyrants/themselves who use precisely this formula to take over power and place should be called on it; so, I answer back in the manner I see fit. 

[MonroeMonkey]

Less, you don't act like someone secure in their faith. You act like a scared animal backed into a corner, scratching and biting for survival. You've done nothing but ramble and insult, not adding a single realistic point to the subject matter. You do more injury to the character of your Christ than you benefit it, by a kind and righteous example.


Let's bring this to the SUBJECT MATTER. Let's address one of the major points Bart D. Ehrman brings up. Give me a sensible counterargument, if you're able.


Mark and Matthew are the two earliest gospels, according to Christian and non-Christian scholars. In these two gospels you find Jesus speaking of a literal coming of the Son of Man, in the clouds, in power, and with the holy angels.

Let's look at the scriptures. Jesus is very clear the Son of Man is coming to earth soon, and some alive will see him with their own eyes.


Matthew 10:23 - When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

In Mark 8-9, these two verses are side by side, and remember, there were no chapter and verse to divide these in the original, so they flow into each other, in reality, and are not divided by the chapter number.

For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”

Here is what Jesus says to the Jewish leaders in Mark 14:

But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

In the earliest gospel, Jesus flat out tells the Jewish leaders THEY will see him coming with the clouds of heaven. BUT after all those men died, and it did NOT happen, Luke, who may have used Mark as a source of his copying, CHANGED this. Many scholars believe Mark was a source used for copying, used by the author of Matthew and Luke.

Same passage in Luke 22:

“If You are the Christ, tell us.” But He said to them, “If I tell you, you will by no means believe. And if I also ask you,you will by no means answer Me or let Me go. Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God.” Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?” So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”

What!? Now the Jewish leaders are not going to see him coming in the clouds? It was changed to cover up the fact these men died and never saw him coming in the clouds.

The early Jesus of Mark and Matthew stated he would return and rule as the Son of Man, within that generation. But the later gospels change those verses! Luke even says, "The kingdom is not coming... it's within you..." Within you? And the latest gospel of John never mentions those verses about the Son of Man and his return in that generation.

Now, to the historical method. Was their really an apocalyptic movement in Jesus's day that believed the Son of Man would literally return to earth soon, and rule in a Kingdom where the reversal of fortunes would take place? YES. Was that same movement teaching the same thing Jesus was? YES. Look at even John the Baptist, who Jesus didn't keep company with before his baptism. You find John the Baptist uses the same language as Jesus. He speaks in parables, etc. All common the apocalyptic movement.

You see an evolution of Jesus when comparing the earliest New Testament manuscripts with the most recent. You find him moving away from the Son of Man, who would soon return in glory, to the Lord of the Heart, who would save even the gentiles.


Less, answer these problems, or just admit that you can't; and continue to use logical fallacies and sarcastic insults, which are the mark of a desperate man losing in the battle.

[LessGovernment]

What is your major malfunction, Xerxes?  That this "scared animal backed into a corner" refuses to address you and your intellectual superhero's wasted efforts point by point?

I do not CARE what your so-called scholars say; in the same way you don't care what Hovind, John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, or Paul Washer has to say - Sammy is dead right - but apparently you love the abuse...and again...WHY would you quote scriptures to defeat the same scriptures that you say are part of a grand hoax?  Which ones are true, and which aren't?

If you pick ANY that are, you're immediately accountable to them in my mind because after all they are "God-breathed"...or, was 2 Timothy 3 the 1st book you and your clowns with high-degrees and praise of men dismissed first?

The Bible said it, I believe it, that settles it ... I am not the least bit offended by anything you throw at me, I just reject it out of hand as utter foolishness - If I am wrong, I(like yourself) will find out once I draw my last breath ...

Hey, if it(this PURE faith) was good enough for our founding fathers(and John Locke), who(once again), MOST Americans revere for their courage, bravery, and moral fortitude to throw off tyranny with Divine HELP; it's good enough for me!

Deal with it; un-converted God-deniers are losers, full of nothing but endless vain excuses to drown out the VOICE of their own conscience that tells them sin will take you farther than you want to go, keep you longer than you want to stay, and cost you more than you can afford - and - without God's Holy Spirit dwelling within you, you simply have nothing to help you resist the temptation to sin against your Creator.

The great patriot Thomas Paine had very few attendees at his funeral, because he spent the later years of his life burning bridges with the founders by bashing their faith - maybe you could learn a lesson from that.
 
God's way wins!    Game, Set, and Match, pal!

[I entered this thread when it had 324 views; now it is over 700, and the Administrator is currently viewing it - I think I added something for the viewing public during my 30+ views and posts] 

[MonroeMonkey]

Less, you're just being a complete troll now.

You don't want to discuss the Bible in light of the historical method, or counter the claims I've presented. I just brought the topic back to the original subject matter and you refused to address the issue. Why? Because you're not able to, and you know it.

Seriously, you're becoming nothing more than an aggressive troll who cannot intelligently debate the subject matter. I've presented the opening of a case that Jesus was originally an apocalyptic teacher, who believed himself to be the Son of Man, and who later evolved into something else over time. I'm presenting chronological dates and comparative texts in light of the historical method. You completely ignore the argument and do nothing but insult.

Less, now, I'm asking you to address the topic matters, or to stop trolling the threads.

[LessGovernment]

if you haven't noticed, you have no audience, and you've rarely had one because your tone is always insulting; your credibility is shot because people recognize your point of view, as I have successfully drawn it out of you and exposed you for the hopeful faith-killer wannabe that you are ... I think you're trolling Monroetalks Religion and Philosophy section looking to mock Christians, and puff yourself up in the process...so nah nah na boo boo

Look at the stats; people only read your stuff when I respond   

Give it a rest with your intellectual play - there is nothing intelligent about your Christian or Jesus-bashing; it was all conveniently made up as wealthy people who also don't want God's moral absolutes governing their lives financed that ruse.

Oooooh, they filled books with great swelling words, and skewed a bunch of statistics together when they found "gaps" that a simple layman has not the time of money to tie together - yet - none of them were eyewitnesses to any of their claims; they are just riding another wave of government-funded garbage meant to sway public opinion; and in this day and age it is popular for hypocrites in high places to throw off God.

There is no incentive for me to read/refute any of your posted 'research' - the one PDF I posted a link to earlier addresses the "topic matters", and suffices to show your Bart character is just another self-satisfied, de-converted, pseudo-intellectual God denier [ http://www.christianlifetools.org/clientimages/28178/bartehrman.pdf ] - I am not offended by anything you say; and I think there exists out there more evidence than not that God authored the Bible through men of His choosing, and has even preserved His Word and the historical account of Jesus being a deity stands true to this day; despite all the technology and secular universities who waste countless millions of dollars to cast doubt like Satan did to Eve in the Garden by asking her "yea, hath God said?"

You go your way Xerxes, keep posting your "stuff" - and if I feel like peeking in to interject my opinion/perspective as to what you are trying to do, I will.

The way you crafted your words in the last reply, and the fact that I saw the administrator looking in; I sense you complained to the management that I was trolling on your sacred thread here ... I am practically your only respondent ...

If anyone NOW needs the historical method to disprove Jesus' credentials, what did they need THEN to understand what He was teaching or saying?  I mean; the pharisees, scribes and sadducees were the most learned of Judaism and the prophecy of His coming, yet they were the ones He criticized most harshly for their non-belief as He fulfilled prophecy right before their very eyes.

Your whole approach to assert that some sort of IQ level, or training in logic is needed amongst people who hear the Gospel is extremely demeaning and insulting - you're calling believers fools - and saying you've gained so much intelligence that you found reason to drop your faith - which, is also addressed in the scriptures; do you deny that believers were already forewarned about folks like yourself(too smart for the Gospel)?

If there are endless ways for your side to keep coming at believers calling the books of the Bible forgeries; there are just as many ways that seminary students will learn how the texts were preserved, passed on, and eventually delivered to a printing press right out of the dark ages(when the Catholic church made it impossible for any person to own a copy of the scriptures).

It's really all about Xerxes versus Less on these threads, and our philosophical differences in our approach to life - and not about your many attempts to debunk the Bible; that is what is drawing people to view your threads ... you need to get over yourself.