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[Forsythia]

Less it's been proven that not all of our founding fathers were christians so how can you claim that all of our founding fathers believed in the god you believe in?

[LessGovernment]

oh, boy!

Article VII of the Constitution was ratified in "the year of our Lord" - who was that?

Is our calendar modeled after another deity/dominant world religion that walked the Earth the same time period as Jesus?

Either way; the point stands - reverence for a Supreme Being, called "their Creator" with a capital "C" was agreed upon by the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, even Thomas Jefferson who cut the miracles out of his Bible ... The General Principles of Christianity helped to shape the Magna Carta, and our governments frame...there's no getting around it ... and if our current Christian politicians actually were led by those principles today, instead of claiming they were while lying, stealing, cheating, and killing to their own citizens and others the world over, America would be a lot better off.

Perhaps Xerxes ought to direct his Biblical corrections regarding how Christians ought to act/behave in accordance to the scriptures at THEM, not me! 

[this thread NOW has over 1,000 views?  WHY? - because Xerxes nailed me and PROVED the Gospel/Bible/Historical story of Jesus false/forgery???]

[Forsythia]

Ummmm....i thought our calendar was named after Roman dictators and various gods....i do know that August was named for Augusta....

Come on Less, get your history right.

As for christian dominance in the western world, thats directly related to the crusades.

Here's a video to explain exactly crusades worked.

Eddie Izzard-Cake or Death

[MonroeMonkey]

Less, until you answer my arguments, you're on the run. I don't care about who was who when it comes to America. Jesus as an Apocalyptic has nothing to do with any of that. Save your ad homs, poisoning of the well, and red herrings, and stick to Ehrman's points.

[Forsythia]

He cant.  He refuses to debate and then claims victory.

[LessGovernment]

Look at the number of YEARS in the calendar, not the name of the months..."YEAR" of our Lord!

Secondly - why should I waste my time researching to refute this guy ... http://www.alternet.org/belief/150734/meet_bart_ehrman%3A_a_one-man_god_fraud_squad/?page=entire

I got your thread the hits/views, Xerxes; not your zealous Christian-bashing that only massages your already swelled intellect, and self-importance in this Monroetalks category...go follow that guy off a cliff, I'll still sleep well at night anticipating my soul will appear before the Creator when I die.

I am not a seminary student, nor have any plans to be.  I am not a politician, nor do I have plans to be.  I am simply a father of 5 who fled the economic conditions of Monroe after I lost my career in wholesale building materials out there.  I am currently working 3 jobs in another state - one as a janitor, one as a caterer, and one as a pizza driver; I am hardly smart enough to get into the scholarly tussle you so desire; given that I work with my hands to keep my head above water - I don't have the luxury of sitting on my *** all day reading useless tripe that lends no beneficial/tangible attributes to the value of human life on Earth.   

You go ahead and pat yourself on the back for PROVING the Bible is all forgeries and DEFEATING me in a debate; obviously you and Bart have PROVEN by the historical method that Jesus was not what the disciples, first century apostles, and bible believing Christians since then think He is...WOW!  I can't imagine how many people you've helped to feel like a moron for ever believing!  The "thank you's" on this thread for rescuing so many from Christianity are too many to count!

Isn't it something how Bart went to Moody, PAID Moody to become/behave like a zealot for Christ; and I merely attended a church in Wisconsin voluntarily at no charge and ended up studying the Bible myself outside of service times, and concluded it would be BEST for me if I repented of my sins to the Creator, and ask Christ to pay my sin debt, without any help/leading/coercion from a bunch of PAID theological masters holding all sorts of degrees?

Look, man; it is enough for me to know what kind of person becomes motivated to debunk a faith they once subscribed to, that's called WISDOM - I need not explain my position any further, nor answer on anything Bart has written when I know you have a ridiculous arsenal of crap ready to throw at my every answer, because that is how you boys play this game.

I say your kind are but preying vermin; destined/hellbent on disrupting the good fruit that Christianity bears because you foolishly think higher than you ought to think of yourselves - which is what making and idol out of one's self-education does to people who reject God's conscience and creation revelation of Himself at face value.

Let's NOT forget - Satan tempted Eve with the promise of gaining SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE!!!  Go find another sucker for your game, I ain't playin'; and most people viewing this know I've whipped you good for persisting in getting on here and engaging in Christian-bashing like an unsupervised child with nothing better to do, and a REAL internet troll.(just Google College Humor Internet Bridge Troll, I won't embed it here)

[Forsythia]

Ok Less, do you know why we base our calendar on the christian years?  It's because christianity went to war with just about everyone and spread like wildfire because of it.  It's the whole "cake or death" argument from Eddie Izzard.

Believe me, I'm sure my ancestors were just fine in the spirituality they had...

[MonroeMonkey]

...go follow that guy off a cliff, I'll still sleep well at night anticipating my soul will appear before the Creator when I die.

Sick.

Less, again, posting a link isn't discussing the points I've laid out. I've laid out the argument, and you run from it. Again, all this nonsense you're posting has nothing to do with thread matter, which is to discuss the works of Bart D. Ehrman. All you want to do is use logical fallacies and glory in your own pride.

Again, address this argument, or continue to run throwing rotten tomatoes of faulty logic.

Mark and Matthew are the two earliest gospels, according to Christian and non-Christian scholars. In these two gospels you find Jesus speaking of a literal coming of the Son of Man, in the clouds, in power, and with the holy angels.

Let's look at the scriptures. Jesus is very clear the Son of Man is coming to earth soon, and some alive will see him with their own eyes.


Matthew 10:23 - When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

In Mark 8-9, these two verses are side by side, and remember, there were no chapter and verse to divide these in the original, so they flow into each other, in reality, and are not divided by the chapter number.

For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”

Here is what Jesus says to the Jewish leaders in Mark 14:

But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

In the earliest gospel, Jesus flat out tells the Jewish leaders THEY will see him coming with the clouds of heaven. BUT after all those men died, and it did NOT happen, Luke, who may have used Mark as a source of his copying, CHANGED this. Many scholars believe Mark was a source used for copying, used by the author of Matthew and Luke.

Same passage in Luke 22:

“If You are the Christ, tell us.” But He said to them, “If I tell you, you will by no means believe. And if I also ask you,you will by no means answer Me or let Me go. Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God.” Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?” So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”

What!? Now the Jewish leaders are not going to see him coming in the clouds? It was changed to cover up the fact these men died and never saw him coming in the clouds.

The early Jesus of Mark and Matthew stated he would return and rule as the Son of Man, within that generation. But the later gospels change those verses! Luke even says, "The kingdom is not coming... it's within you..." Within you? And the latest gospel of John never mentions those verses about the Son of Man and his return in that generation.

Now, to the historical method. Was their really an apocalyptic movement in Jesus's day that believed the Son of Man would literally return to earth soon, and rule in a Kingdom where the reversal of fortunes would take place? YES. Was that same movement teaching the same thing Jesus was? YES. Look at even John the Baptist, who Jesus didn't keep company with before his baptism. You find John the Baptist uses the same language as Jesus. He speaks in parables, etc. All common the apocalyptic movement.

You see an evolution of Jesus when comparing the earliest New Testament manuscripts with the most recent. You find him moving away from the Son of Man, who would soon return in glory, to the Lord of the Heart, who would save even the gentiles.

After I dismantle your argument on this, which will never come, I have a hundred more arguments you won't be able to answer.

[LessGovernment]

"After I dismantle your argument on this ... I have a hundred more arguments you won't be able to answer."

I already predicted you WOULD...duh!

Only a non-productive loser would lie in wait everyday, hoping to be granted such an opportunity ... like I said ... go find yourself another SUCKER, I am a few steps ahead of you in God-given wisdom - why? - because I didn't think I was smarter than the Creator.

And that's what I call DEMONSTRABLE humility!

[Forsythia]

"After I dismantle your argument on this ... I have a hundred more arguments you won't be able to answer."

I already predicted you WOULD...duh!

Only a non-productive loser would lie in wait everyday, hoping to be granted such an opportunity ... like I said ... go find yourself another SUCKER, I am a few steps ahead of you in God-given wisdom - why? - because I didn't think I was smarter than the Creator.

And that's what I call DEMONSTRABLE humility!

He's not claiming to be smarter than any diety, just smarter than you.