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John Kopke

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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #90 on: June 03, 2012, 10:09:49 PM »

Three days before the Walker re-call election the author of this topic, who was  early on confident of Walkers demise on the merit, is now disconcerted by the polling numbers and has now joined "The end justifies the means" crowd. Just to drive home the point lets look at the definition.   

The End Justifies the Means

This phrase, originating from Niccolo Machiavelli's book "The Prince", is interpreted by some to mean doing anything whatsoever that is required to get the result you want, regardless of the methods used. It does not matter whether these methods are legal or illegal, fair or foul, kind or cruel, truth or lies, democratic or dictatorial, good or evil.

I did a little research on the allegation put forth in the previous post/paste. Couple blurbs:

By the Members of the Wisconsin Citizens Media Cooperative

We have reported allegations against Scott Walker made by Dr. Bernadette Gillick, who unequivocally states she knew him at Marquette University. Dr. Gillick has put her reputation on the line in making them.

WCMC is not alleging that Walker fathered the child; we are reporting the allegations made by someone who has every appearance of credibility and no discernible ulterior motive. (Yeah those college professors are right wingers for sure) We are giving Dr. Gillick the opportunity to recount her memory of the Walker she knew at Marquette just as we gave Dr. Barry the same opportunity. Both deserve to be heard.

We contacted “Ruth” for her comments on the story and she had this to say: “I can confirm that it was not Scott Walker who is my daughter’s father.” When confronted with the details of Dr. Gillick’s allegations and asked about the identity of the roommate in question, “Ruth” went on to say, “Unfortunately, I don’t know her name. But it was…[pause] I do know that one of Bernadette’s roommates, either sophomore or junior year, was pregnant and had a child while she was at Marquette. So that would have been either a year or two after I had had [my child]. And I don’t know whether, you know, I’d have no idea, to be honest with you, if Scott Walker was the father.”

June 3, 2012

Dailey Kos: Updated: Verified - Woman Denies Walker Fathered Baby -  Milwaukee Journal Columnist Daniel Bice

The story that Scott Walker abandoned his pregnant girlfriend in college (dKos diary link) apparently failed the first test of verification by a professional reporter. Daniel Bice, the "Watchdog" columnist of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Online interviewed the anonymous woman who had the baby, but she adamantly denied that Scott Walker was the father according to a comment by Daniel Bice to the linked story.

Daniel Bice June 3, 2012 at 3:15 am Reply
I am getting a lot of emails because of this post. Two things: (1) I tracked down and talked to Dr. Gillick’s freshman-year roommate at MU yesterday, and she adamantly denies that Walker is the father of her child. Yes, she got pregnant as a first-year student, but she believes Dr. Gillick is mixing up stories; and (2) I Can Read CCAP has taken a family court suit involving Scott Alan Walker and mixed it up with the governor, Scott Kevin Walker.

Can't beat them smear them.











« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 10:58:26 PM by John Kopke »
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John Kopke

ducksoup

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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #91 on: June 03, 2012, 11:06:30 PM »

Three days before the Walker re-call election the author of this topic, who was  early on confident of Walkers demise on the merit, is now disconcerted by the polling numbers and has now joined "The end justifies the means" crowd. Just to drive home the point lets look at the definition.   

The End Justifies the Means

This phrase, originating from Niccolo Machiavelli's book "The Prince", is interpreted by some to mean doing anything whatsoever that is required to get the result you want, regardless of the methods used. It does not matter whether these methods are legal or illegal, fair or foul, kind or cruel, truth or lies, democratic or dictatorial, good or evil.

I did a little research on the allegation put forth in the previous post/paste. Couple blurbs:

By the Members of the Wisconsin Citizens Media Cooperative

We have reported allegations against Scott Walker made by Dr. Bernadette Gillick, who unequivocally states she knew him at Marquette University. Dr. Gillick has put her reputation on the line in making them.

WCMC is not alleging that Walker fathered the child; we are reporting the allegations made by someone who has every appearance of credibility and no discernible ulterior motive. (Yeah those college professors are right wingers for sure) We are giving Dr. Gillick the opportunity to recount her memory of the Walker she knew at Marquette just as we gave Dr. Barry the same opportunity. Both deserve to be heard.

We contacted “Ruth” for her comments on the story and she had this to say: “I can confirm that it was not Scott Walker who is my daughter’s father.” When confronted with the details of Dr. Gillick’s allegations and asked about the identity of the roommate in question, “Ruth” went on to say, “Unfortunately, I don’t know her name. But it was…[pause] I do know that one of Bernadette’s roommates, either sophomore or junior year, was pregnant and had a child while she was at Marquette. So that would have been either a year or two after I had had [my child]. And I don’t know whether, you know, I’d have no idea, to be honest with you, if Scott Walker was the father.”

June 3, 2012

Dailey Kos: Updated: Verified - Woman Denies Walker Fathered Baby -  Milwaukee Journal Columnist Daniel Bice

The story that Scott Walker abandoned his pregnant girlfriend in college (dKos diary link) apparently failed the first test of verification by a professional reporter. Daniel Bice, the "Watchdog" columnist of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Online interviewed the anonymous woman who had the baby, but she adamantly denied that Scott Walker was the father according to a comment by Daniel Bice to the linked story.

Daniel Bice June 3, 2012 at 3:15 am Reply
I am getting a lot of emails because of this post. Two things: (1) I tracked down and talked to Dr. Gillick’s freshman-year roommate at MU yesterday, and she adamantly denies that Walker is the father of her child. Yes, she got pregnant as a first-year student, but she believes Dr. Gillick is mixing up stories; and (2) I Can Read CCAP has taken a family court suit involving Scott Alan Walker and mixed it up with the governor, Scott Kevin Walker.

Can't beat them smear them.














Ever hear of citing instead of stealing?   
Quote
This phrase, originating from Niccolo Machiavelli's book "The Prince", is interpreted by some to mean doing anything whatsoever that is required to get the result you want, regardless of the methods used. It does not matter whether these methods are legal or illegal, fair or foul, kind or cruel, truth or lies, democratic or dictatorial, good or evil.
That is a direct quote from a few different places but seems to be originally from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_the_end_justifies_the_means_mean made by David Eaglehawk.  Yet, you represent it as your own words with no credit of any sort.

THE second quote By the Members of the Wisconsin Citizens Media Cooperative at least gives them credit even if you stole rather than cited.  Interestingly, the title is “Editorial: On Integrity” Which you seem to lack completely.  http://wcmcoop.com/members/editorial-on-integrity    The third was from Daily Kos but again not cited.  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/06/03/1096950/-Woman-Denies-Walker-Fathered-Baby-JSO-Reporter-Daniel-Bice

Okay, so, what I don’t get of you far right spin is... well anything.  You CLAIM that it was a smear and seem to say it was known and dished out anyway, yet the people at Kos found and corrected it quickly.  That is the correct thing to do, and still wait with baited breath for the right to start doing the same.

But, the big chuckle is you sealing another person’s writing about “integrity” and clearly lacking any integrity in your own post.  Yes, it appears you wish to live by your last words... “Can't beat them smear them.”


Anyway, a recall might be a moot thing as it has been revealed that Walker IS the target of investigations by state and federal DOJ's for corruption as mayor of Milwaukee AND as Governor.
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John Kopke

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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #92 on: June 04, 2012, 12:09:09 AM »

Well Duck all I have to say is with you around thank God in heaven I didn't make a spelling error. Further, the definition itself clearly states "originating from Niccolo Machiavelli's book, The Prince". On that basis I didn't think it was necessary for me to point out these weren't my words.

Kos corrected you say. Well the woman in question said up front the claim was false, but that didn't stop the "allegation" from being put out there.

By the way. Can you tell me where the state or the DOJ (yeah right) have indicated Walker is a target of the investigation? I haven't seen anything.
All I've read is Walker responding to a reporter's question.


« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 12:20:33 AM by John Kopke »
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John Kopke

jbs49238

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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #93 on: June 04, 2012, 12:40:32 AM »

Most polls show Walker surviving his recall election.  This could be a HUGE blow to Democrats if that is indeed the case. 

2012 may change the montra.... it may become so goes Wisconsin so goes the Nation.

Look, I don't think Walker is completely great, but I don't think he is completely off base either.  Snyder the same way.  Overall, I think Snyder and Walker are really good fiscally minded leaders, but their assaults on unions can be too much.  Which is why I really support Repulicans and Democrats who support the idea of getting behind righting the fiscal ship without evicerating the rights of workers in order to keep these governors in line and send them the message that: overall you are doing a great job but here is whre you need to bend a little.

Unfortunately it seems that all the candidates we have to choose from right now are all or nothing types.  On the R side it is: Eliminate the union cut taxes for the rich!  On the D side it is: Mortgage the farm for the unions and give away as much as we can to buy as many votes as possible!  Both options make me want to vomit, and the idea that either party could push their agenda completely through causes me to lose sleep at times.

Why do we get the all or nothing candidates?  The vast amount of money spent by the parties and the PAC's kill any chances we have of getting really good moderate candidates.  Perfect example is happening in my State House race.  A really good moderate candidate has had to take to regurgutating the Democrat party line in order to stay in the good (and financial) graces of the party, his opponenet is a die hard lib who does nothing but blame R's for everything and is a schill for the MEA.

The moderate candidate is the BEST choice, however he will lose to the base (Democrat) message in the primary and the incumbant rubber stamp Republican will win the general election because as a whole the state is heading the right direction and the district is moderate right.
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John Kopke

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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #94 on: June 04, 2012, 01:01:09 AM »

JBS:
You made a reasonable argument, but the problem I have is "public sector
unions". Even FDR thought they were a bad idea and the logic is simple.
Public sector unions push for their guys election, and if their guy wins, the
union will be sitting across the "negotiating" table with people that know
who butters their bread.
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John Kopke

jbs49238

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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #95 on: June 04, 2012, 01:19:38 AM »

JBS:
You made a reasonable argument, but the problem I have is "public sector
unions". Even FDR thought they were a bad idea and the logic is simple.
Public sector unions push for their guys election, and if their guy wins, the
union will be sitting across the "negotiating" table with people that know
who butters their bread.

Just because a person chooses to work in the public sector as opposed to the private sector does not mitigate his right to collectively bargain.  What choices would you choose to strip from the public sector worker next?  His choice in vehicle purchase (foreign or domestic) his standard of living, his choice for his children's education? 

What the hard right wishes for the public sector employee is a slippery slope.... the State can always reject the contracts proposed by the unions... and in many cases have, there are several instances of public service employees WORKING WITHOUT A CONTRACT for years because the state and the union cannot come to an agreement.

If you don't like how your elected officials spend the money, or negotiate the contracts you can always vote them out.
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Frenchfry

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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #96 on: June 04, 2012, 06:07:52 AM »

Wisconsin Recall Breaks Record Thanks To Outside Cash

Tuesday’s recall election of Republican Gov. Scott Walker is the most expensive in Wisconsin history. More than $63.5 million has been spent by candidates and independent groups, the overwhelming majority underwritten by out-of-state sources.

The record spending total was made possible thanks to the Citizens United U.S. Supreme Court decision — which had the effect of invalidating Wisconsin’s century-old ban on independent expenditures by corporations and unions — and a state law that allows unlimited contributions to the incumbent in recall elections.

The amount spent since November 2011 trounces the state’s previous record of $37.4 million, set during the 2010 gubernatorial campaign.

The election has become a national referendum on the future of public sector unions, which have been a major force within the Democratic Party for decades.

In the first of two debates, Walker vowed to “stand up and take on the powerful special interests,” suggesting that national unions have propped up his Democratic challenger, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett.

While Barrett has received about 26 percent of his $4 million in campaign donations from outside the Badger State, Walker has drawn nearly two-thirds of his $30.5 million contributions from out of state, according to campaign filings released May 29. Walker has outraised Barrett 7 ½ to 1 since late 2011, though Barrett didn’t enter the race until late March.

“It’s big time,” said Mike McCabe, director of the campaign finance watchdog Wisconsin Democracy Campaign, which compiled the numbers. “We have a level of outside interference in this election that the state has never seen before.”
More here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/03/wisconsin-recall-unions_n_1565921.html

Also in that article:
The Republican Governors Association has spent roughly $4 million on campaign ads through its Right Direction Wisconsin PAC since April 23. But because the RGA’s PAC is based out-of-state, it only has to disclose to state regulators its donations coming from inside Wisconsin, a glaring loophole.

Of its most recent $4 million outlay, the RGA raised only a little over $7,000 from inside the state.

The RGA does have to report donors to the IRS, and its 2012 first quarter filing reveals a $500,000 donation from the Chamber of Commerce and a $1 million February contribution from conservative billionaire David Koch and billionaire casino owner Sheldon Adelson.
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Frenchfry

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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #97 on: June 04, 2012, 06:09:09 AM »

"Republican super PACs and other outside groups shaped by a loose network of prominent conservatives -- including Karl Rove, the Koch brothers and Tom Donohue of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce -- plan to spend roughly $1 billion on November's elections for the White House and control of Congress, according to officials familiar with the groups' internal operations. That total includes previously undisclosed plans for newly aggressive spending by the Koch brothers, who are steering funding to build sophisticated, county-by-county operations in key states. POLITICO has learned that Koch-related organizations plan to spend about $400 million ahead of the 2012 elections - twice what they had been expected to commit. Just the spending linked to the Koch network is more than the $370 million that John McCain raised for his entire presidential campaign four years ago. And the $1 billion total surpasses the $750 million that Barack Obama, one of the most prolific fundraisers ever, collected for his 2008 campaign...".

Record Spending On 2012 Elections By GOP Groups
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2012, 06:10:13 AM »

Money talks.
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Frenchfry

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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2012, 06:27:59 AM »

From NY Times: As Gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin faces a well deserved recall vote next month after stripping public unions of their bargaining rights, voters are discovering the generosity of Diane Hendricks. Ms. Hendricks, the billionaire chairwoman of the nation’s largest roofing and siding wholesaler, (ABC Supply
http://www.abcsupply.com/media-center/fact-sheet ),
wrote a check for $500,000 last month to help defend Governor Walker, a Republican, against his Democratic challenger, Tom Barrett, the mayor of Milwaukee.

The eye-popping donation was made possible by a quirk in the state law for recall campaigns. And Ms. Hendricks has never been shy about what she wants. A newly released piece of documentary video shows her running into Governor Walker two weeks after he took office in 2011. In what was presumed to have been a private discussion, Ms. Hendricks asked, “Any chance we’ll ever get to be a completely red state and work on these unions and become a right to work” state?
http://www.politicsplus.org/blog/tag/gop-hypocrites/
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ducksoup

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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #100 on: June 04, 2012, 10:17:41 AM »

Well Duck all I have to say is with you around thank God in heaven I didn't make a spelling error. Further, the definition itself clearly states "originating from Niccolo Machiavelli's book, The Prince". On that basis I didn't think it was necessary for me to point out these weren't my words.

Kos corrected you say. Well the woman in question said up front the claim was false, but that didn't stop the "allegation" from being put out there.

By the way. Can you tell me where the state or the DOJ (yeah right) have indicated Walker is a target of the investigation? I haven't seen anything.
All I've read is Walker responding to a reporter's question.


That’s it?  You steal and the best you can do is say it is a silly as pointing out a spelling error? 

This is the original words “In the actions of men, and especially of Princes, from which there is no appeal, the end justifies the means. - Niccoló Machiavelli, The Prince. 1537. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/670893/posts  That would be quoting Machiavelli.  What you STOLE was someone, very clearly, stating what he believed Machiavelli meant. 

From http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_the_end_justifies_the_means_mean this is the title question... “What does the end justifies the means mean?”

“Answer
This phrase, originating from Niccolo Machiavelli's book "The Prince", is interpreted by some to mean doing anything whatsoever that is required to get the result you want, regardless of the methods used. It does not matter whether these methods are legal or illegal, fair or foul, kind or cruel, truth or lies, democratic or dictatorial, good or evil.”

Again, and clearly, that was a person giving his interpretation of Machiavelli, and not even close to being a quote OF Machiavelli.

Quote
Kos corrected you say. Well the woman in question said up front the claim was false, but that didn't stop the "allegation" from being put out there.
  Far as I can tell that all happened in less than 24 hours.  I can’t tell how it all happened, maybe someone was totally malicious as you infer, but maybe it didn’t happen the way you claim, with the denial up front.  Given that the original author says that he doesn’t usually correct rumors, he posted on the website the correction, so seemingly AFTER the original.

I still say, the correction was quick and the rumor stopped.  When you gonna have the right stop the eternal BS?  Hey, maybe even an obvious stupidity of a birth certificate? How long has that BS been floating, John.  A damn site longer than 24 hours...  So, yeah John, keep harping at one corrected by the left within 24 hours while your side lets stupid go on and on and on like the Energizer Bunny with no correction.

Quote
By the way. Can you tell me where the state or the DOJ (yeah right) have indicated Walker is a target of the investigation? I haven't seen anything.
All I've read is Walker responding to a reporter's question.

Actually, it doesn’t take a genius to see anyway.  He has a legal defense fund which by Wi state law has to be for himself or a direct employee of his.  He has stated, with his own words that the fund is for himself. 

Quote
The two-year-old corruption investigation into Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker reached a major inflection point just days before his recall election next week when it came out that Walker had transferred $100,000 of campaign money to his legal defense fund and seemed to acknowledge that he is the center of the probe.

The probe reportedly started with a single staffer who had worked for Walker when he was Milwaukee’s county executive, but it has since grown much larger, touching almost everyone who has worked for Walker, and even the governor himself, and producing several arrests and convictions.

Documents made public last night show prosecutors requested the secret investigation after they found Walker’s office “unable or unwilling” to provide information. “It may be the county executive’s office is reluctant to provide information to investigators due to a fear of political embarrassment,” an assistant DA wrote to a judge in May 2010. Walker has maintained that he has cooperated with prosecutors all along, so the document casts doubt on his story of the proceedings. Asked about the stonewalling last night, he essentially called the report untrue.

Already, three aides who have worked for Walker have been charged, as have two of his appointees and a major donor. One aide pled guilty to two misdemeanor counts relating to work she did for Walker’s gubernatorial campaign on county taxpayers’ dime.

Two appointees were arrested for allegedly embezzling $60,000 from a fund that was intended to be used for veterans. They used the money instead for Caribbean cruises, wedding expenses, Walker campaign barbeques and other Walker campaign activities, prosecutors claim. They are awaiting trial.
The donor, Wisconsin and Southern Railroad Co. CEO William Gardner, was convicted of violating state elections law with excessive donations to Walker’s campaign. He was sentenced to two years probation last year.

There have also been FBI raids on the homes and offices of aides and the seizures of computers. At least 13 aides have been granted immunity in exchange for cooperating with the investigation.

Walker, thus far, has maintained that he is not the target of the investigation. But under Wisconsin law, politicians can only use their legal defense funds for themselves or their staffs, and Walker said this week that none of the money from the fund would go to his staff, suggesting it would be used only to defend himself. Democrats seized on the comment as an admission from Walker that he is personally a target.
http://www.salon.com/2012/06/01/scott_walkers_john_doe_scandal_explained/

Quote
Walker denied the allegations. At a campaign event on Saturday, Walker answered "absolutely not" to reporters' questions -- raised by David Shuster's reporting for Take Action News -- about whether he had been informed, either formally or informally, that he might be a target of federal prosecution. "I've never heard a single thing about that, other than spin from the left," Walker said. He described the allegations as "just more of the liberal scare tactics out there desperately trying to get the campaign off target."

"I stand by my reporting 100 percent," Shuster said in the conference call. "It's clear to me that he is, in fact, a target in a federal investigation."
Despite copious reporting, especially in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, about the Milwaukee County district attorney's probe of alleged violations when Walker was county executive -- including a secret email network maintained by his staff for the purpose of conducting illegal campaign activity on county time, the theft of funds intended for the widows and orphans of Iraq War veterans, and possible favorable treatment of campaign donors seeking public contracts, not much has been written about the FBI probe.

"The Wisconsin press has only reported about the John Doe -- the state component," said Zielinski. "They have not reported on the federal component of this."

"I've been reporting on federal grand juries for twenty years" -- including Justice Department probes of former Arkansas Governor Jim Guy Tucker, Monica Lewinsky, Washington, D.C. Mayor Marion Barry, and Jack Abramoff -- said David Shuster, a former reporter for Fox News and anchor for MSNBC, who now works with Take Action News and as a host on Current TV.

In his reporting on FBI involvement in the current probe of Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, Shuster said he consulted with Justice Department attorneys in the public integrity section and "I got independent confirmation that he's a target."

Shuster said that he had learned Scott Walker's attorneys had been seeking to have their client publicly cleared of wrongdoing for the last five or six weeks, in the run-up to the recall election. Prosecutors could not clear him, Shuster said, because Walker is a target.

The ongoing John Doe investigation by the Milwaukee County District Attorney has led to criminal charges against three of Walker's former aides, an appointee, and a major donor. Thirteen of Walker's associates have been granted immunity -- including Walker's spokesman, Cullen Werwie.

Recent campaign finance filings show that Walker has transferred a total of $160,000 into a criminal defense fund -- the only criminal defense fund maintained by a governor of any state in the nation.

In Saturday's conference call, former prosecutor Bob Jambois said that when he was general counsel to the state Department of Transportation, he released thousands of pages of records and called a press conference to put to rest allegations of wrongdoing. "If Scott Walker thinks this is so unfair, why doesn't he open up these 1,400 emails," he said.

Jambois suggested that the emails Walker has not released must relate to a private email network, since reporters have been unable to access them through an open records request.

Lautenschlager agreed that "Walker should have produced evidence to clear himself" if he was not a target of investigation, and that it would be "malpractice" for his attorneys not to seek a letter from prosecutors clearing him.

She also disputed Walker's contention that he could not speak publicly about the investigation because prosecutors did not want him to.
"There is no happier person than a prosecutor when a target starts speaking publicly," she said.

As state attorney general, Lautenschlager said that she worked by a "rule of thumb" when investigating wrongdoing by politicians "not to say anything within two months of an election," unless prosecutors could clear the politician in question, to avoid the appearance of a politically motivated prosecution.
http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=36926

So, plenty to make one believe that the reporter’s anonymous quoting is pretty well founded.
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ducksoup

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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #101 on: June 04, 2012, 10:42:49 AM »

Most polls show Walker surviving his recall election.  This could be a HUGE blow to Democrats if that is indeed the case. 

2012 may change the montra.... it may become so goes Wisconsin so goes the Nation.

Look, I don't think Walker is completely great, but I don't think he is completely off base either.  Snyder the same way.  Overall, I think Snyder and Walker are really good fiscally minded leaders, but their assaults on unions can be too much.  Which is why I really support Repulicans and Democrats who support the idea of getting behind righting the fiscal ship without evicerating the rights of workers in order to keep these governors in line and send them the message that: overall you are doing a great job but here is whre you need to bend a little.

Unfortunately it seems that all the candidates we have to choose from right now are all or nothing types.  On the R side it is: Eliminate the union cut taxes for the rich!  On the D side it is: Mortgage the farm for the unions and give away as much as we can to buy as many votes as possible!  Both options make me want to vomit, and the idea that either party could push their agenda completely through causes me to lose sleep at times.

Why do we get the all or nothing candidates?  The vast amount of money spent by the parties and the PAC's kill any chances we have of getting really good moderate candidates.  Perfect example is happening in my State House race.  A really good moderate candidate has had to take to regurgutating the Democrat party line in order to stay in the good (and financial) graces of the party, his opponenet is a die hard lib who does nothing but blame R's for everything and is a schill for the MEA.

The moderate candidate is the BEST choice, however he will lose to the base (Democrat) message in the primary and the incumbant rubber stamp Republican will win the general election because as a whole the state is heading the right direction and the district is moderate right.

I have heard the same thing from the right, that it is a sign of a wave.  I tend to think not.  It is a recall election, which has a different dynamic.  People are resistant to recalls, and it is surprising, even for Walker, that it got that far.  He has led in all polls by either 6% or 3% which isn't a blow out, but that he has always led is significant.  I think to a lot, his recall is the slap on the wrist they feel was enough.  So, yes, winning the recall could mean something, but also having been recalled also means something, which cancels any meaning for future elections whether he wins or loses.  It won't mean anything for the Dems if he loses either.

I kind of disagree about your terms of candidates.  Not that your perception is wrong, but where we see from.  When I see Republican choices I see off to the right or far right and no moderates.  From Democrats I see moderates and conservatives (and not liberals).  Things have shifted so far right that I really believe that if Reagan were to run now, he would not be able to run as a Republican, and would have to be a conservative Democrat.  He just wasn't far enough to the right to have a chance now.

But, I agree with the lack of real choice.  My personal feeling is that big money is the big problem for both parties and it seems the electorate wants no compromise but "my way or the highway" and that kills off what few moderates there was. 

Have no clue about the local race you mentioned.
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Re: Scott Walker recall an almost certainty
« Reply #102 on: June 04, 2012, 06:51:47 PM »

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Wisconsin recall: A test for Obama's reelection bid?
« Reply #104 on: June 05, 2012, 08:25:27 AM »


Beyond the obvious "Liberal" slant of the article - the question is legit as both sides of the news media bias have made the observation that Obama's re-election may be strongly affected by his stance on this race.   

Trying to invoke "tea" into the article to make it sound radical - instead of conservative is the slant.    Too bad because the rest of the article is actually insightful - showing the actual reality that the Independents in Wisconsin, most likely mirror those across the US and how they view which party is working to better the economy.

Local Democrat party members are angry at the lack of support from their leader and wonder why he has remained on the sidelines.   Could it be his adviser's realize the implication and don't want the risk of being given a lose going into the final months of his re-election campaign?   It is a curious stance.   

Democrats have always "counted" Wisconsin as a victory, and now face losing those 10 Electoral College Votes... 

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Wisconsin recall: A test for Obama's reelection bid?

(AP) WASHINGTON - The strength of President Barack Obama's bid for a second term faces a key test Tuesday in a Wisconsin election to decide whether the Republican governor of the Midwestern state, a hero of the deeply conservative tea-party movement, should be ousted more than 2 years early.

The recall election marks just the third time in U.S. history that a state governor has been challenged midterm. What's more, Wisconsin is a key swing state in the November presidential election. It is seen as leaning toward Obama, but Tuesday's vote could show an inclination to flip toward Republican challenger Mitt Romney.

Beyond that, the political divisions gripping the Wisconsin electorate virtually mirror sentiments nationwide.

The effort to unseat Gov. Scott Walker is rooted in Wisconsin's labor union movement and the Democratic rank-and-file, both profoundly angered over his budget-cutting policies. If Walker successfully defends his leadership, it would be a major boost for already highly motivated tea party voters, who want smaller government, lower deficits and tax cuts.

With the economy the top issue in the presidential election, a victory for Wisconsin conservatives would underscore Romney's strength nationwide. He has endorsed budget-slashing, tax-cutting tea party fiscal plans at the national level.

Most polls show Walker with a slight advantage over Democratic challenger Tom Barrett, a former member of the U.S. Congress and Walker's opponent in the 2010 governor's race. Defending Walker has become a major cause for national Republicans and outside interests who back his pro-business, anti-union positions.

Walker said Monday he expects a close race and he's focused on turning out voters who supported his efforts to take on public-employee unions.

"We want to move on and move forward," he said.

Barrett, currently the Milwaukee mayor, has found support from top Democratic political figures, including former President Bill Clinton and party chairwoman Debbie Wasserman. Obama, however, has not intervened on his behalf, perhaps not wanting to chance being directly associated with what might be a losing effort with five months remaining before the presidential election.

White House press secretary Jeff Carney was asked during a briefing Monday why Obama wasn't campaigning for Barrett.

"The president supports him, stands by him," Carney said, adding that Obama hopes Barrett prevails.

Walker stripped public employee union members of most of their collective bargaining rights and forced them to pay more for health insurance and pension benefits. Angry civil servants, from school teachers to firefighters and police, backed a petition drive that collected sufficient signatures to force the recall vote.

"Now it's our turn to speak," an exuberant Barrett told campaign workers Monday. "We the people of the state of Wisconsin are going to reclaim our future."

The campaign surrounding the vote also is producing fuel for opponents of a 2010 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that opened the door to unlimited corporate campaign spending. The only proviso requires that corporate donations go to a committee that does not coordinate directly with the candidate or his or her campaign organization.

The recall election has been unlike anything seen before in Wisconsin, with at least $62 million spent by the candidates and outside groups so far. Walker was the top spender at $29 million, with Barrett's campaign spending about $4 million. Outside groups have spent $21 million and issue ad groups that don't have to disclose their spending have put in at least $7.5 million.

The recall may have started over collective bargaining, but the overriding issue has become job creation. Walker promised in 2010 to create 250,000 jobs over four years, but he is not on pace to meet that goal. How far afield he is depends on what set of numbers are used to measure his promise. Monthly jobs figures, based on a survey of about 3.5 percent of Wisconsin employers, show job creation has been flat since Walker took office. But a combination of data, including 2011 numbers derived from a more comprehensive census of employers, shows about 33,000 new jobs have been created in Walker's term.

While the Walker-Barrett race is in the national spotlight, also on the ballot are recall elections for the Republican lieutenant governor and four Republican state Senate seats. If Democrats win any one of those seats, they will hold a majority in the Senate for the first time since 2010 and could obstruct any further advancement of Walker's agenda if he wins.

The only other two governors to have faced a recall vote lost, most recently California Gov. Gray Davis in 2003.

A defeat for Walker would badly damage a political career that until now had looked on course to national prominence. A victory would cement his place as a national tea party hero with a rosy future in a Republican party that is evolving more and more toward the hard right on the American political spectrum.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57447116/wisconsin-recall-a-test-for-obamas-reelection-bid/
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