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sammy

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #135 on: April 02, 2012, 10:32:39 PM »

The white right-wing MT members are sure concerned about the right to kill blacks at will.

One would think the natural desire for justice would overcome their prejudice and they'd consider simply that a human being was gunned down for nothing but no....the gun nuts and racists are teaming up to defend the wrongdoing.

Good ole Monroetucky....land of the bigoted inbreds.
You so stooopid! Methinks you racist too!
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excelsior

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #136 on: April 02, 2012, 10:39:09 PM »


Inside Politics: NBC News to probe misleading edit of Zimmerman 911 tape

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/apr/2/inside-politics-nbc-news-to-probe-misleading-edit-/

Amid withering criticism from media watchdogs, NBC News said Monday that it will conduct an internal probe into how and why an audiotape of George Zimmerman’s 911 call was altered to make the Florida neighborhood watch volunteer sound racist.

Mr. Zimmerman, who has said he fatally shot teenager Trayvon Martin in self-defense, is at the center of a raging national controversy over race, guns and stereotyping.

“We have launched an internal investigation into the editorial process surrounding this particular story,” NBC told The Washington Post blogger Erik Wemple on Monday.

In the edited tape, which ran on NBC’s “Today” show March 27, Mr. Zimmerman tells a police dispatcher that the 17-year-old “looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.”

NBC started investigating after Fox News and others noted that the audio recording, played in its entirety, reveals that Mr. Zimmerman’s “He looks black” comment was made after the dispatcher asked, “Is he black, white or Hispanic?” — a portion of the tape that NBC edited out.

(follow link for complete story)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/apr/2/inside-politics-nbc-news-to-probe-misleading-edit-/
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ussoccer26

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #137 on: April 02, 2012, 10:49:57 PM »

Inside Politics: NBC News to probe misleading edit of Zimmerman 911 tape

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/apr/2/inside-politics-nbc-news-to-probe-misleading-edit-/

Amid withering criticism from media watchdogs, NBC News said Monday that it will conduct an internal probe into how and why an audiotape of George Zimmerman’s 911 call was altered to make the Florida neighborhood watch volunteer sound racist.

Mr. Zimmerman, who has said he fatally shot teenager Trayvon Martin in self-defense, is at the center of a raging national controversy over race, guns and stereotyping.

“We have launched an internal investigation into the editorial process surrounding this particular story,” NBC told The Washington Post blogger Erik Wemple on Monday.

In the edited tape, which ran on NBC’s “Today” show March 27, Mr. Zimmerman tells a police dispatcher that the 17-year-old “looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.”

NBC started investigating after Fox News and others noted that the audio recording, played in its entirety, reveals that Mr. Zimmerman’s “He looks black” comment was made after the dispatcher asked, “Is he black, white or Hispanic?” — a portion of the tape that NBC edited out.

(follow link for complete story)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/apr/2/inside-politics-nbc-news-to-probe-misleading-edit-/

Not surprising, but who needs facts when you have frenchfry telling you how it really happened!!!
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Frenchfry

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #138 on: April 02, 2012, 11:04:57 PM »

Not surprising, but who needs facts when you have frenchfry telling you how it really happened!!!
Oh yeah...gotta protect the right to carry those firearms....nevermind that an innocent person was gunned down.
Quote
Sanford police detective Chris Serino, unconvinced by Zimmerman's story of self-defense, wanted to charge him with manslaughter, but was overruled by the prosecutor.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/02/us-usa-florida-shooting-prosecutor-idUSBRE83116420120402
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ussoccer26

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #139 on: April 02, 2012, 11:07:21 PM »

Oh yeah...gotta protect the right to carry those firearms....nevermind that an innocent person was gunned down.

Never said the kid wasn't innocent, but hey you would know because you were there.
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excelsior

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #140 on: April 02, 2012, 11:18:05 PM »

Never said the kid wasn't innocent, but hey you would know because you were there.

Agreed.  Hopefully the truth will be discovered and justice served.


The Reuters story that FF cited also included the following:

Prosecutor denies interfering in Florida shooting case

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/02/us-usa-florida-shooting-prosecutor-idUSBRE83116420120402

By Daniel Trotta and Barbara Liston


(Reuters) - A Florida prosecutor who removed himself from the investigation into the shooting death of black teenager Trayvon Martin denied on Monday that he quashed police intentions to charge the shooter with manslaughter.

State Attorney Norm Wolfinger asked the U.S. Justice Department civil rights division to disregard a letter it received from lawyers for Martin's family which referred to reports that Wolfinger interfered in the police investigation.

The letter contained "outright lies," Wolfinger said.

George Zimmerman, 28, a neighborhood watch volunteer, shot and killed 17-year-old Martin on February 26 in Sanford, Florida, claiming self defense. Police did not arrest Zimmerman, saying evidence had failed to contradict his story that he was attacked by Martin.

The racially charged case has prompted demonstrations around the United States demanding Zimmerman's arrest. The Justice Department has agreed to review the investigation by Florida state and local authorities.

ABC News reported last week that Sanford police detective Chris Serino, unconvinced by Zimmerman's story of self-defense, wanted to charge him with manslaughter, but was overruled by Wolfinger's office.

A separate report by news website TheGrio.com, unconfirmed by Reuters, said Wolfinger left his home the Sunday night of the shooting to meet with Sanford police in person.

Benjamin Crump, a lawyer for the Martin family, asked the Justice Department in a letter on Monday to investigate those reports. Though the letter reported the events without attribution, Crump told Reuters his information came from the media reports and he did not have independent verification.

Wolfinger had declined all comment since removing himself from the case on March 22, but fired back in a statement on Monday.

"I am outraged by the outright lies contained in the letter by Benjamin Crump," Wolfinger said. "I encourage the Justice Department to investigate and document that no such meeting or communication occurred."

(click link for complete story)
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/02/us-usa-florida-shooting-prosecutor-idUSBRE83116420120402
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Frenchfry

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #141 on: April 02, 2012, 11:26:26 PM »

Florida’s now-infamous Stand Your Ground law, which lets you shoot someone you consider threatening without facing arrest, let alone prosecution, sounds crazy — and it is. And it’s tempting to dismiss this law as the work of ignorant yahoos. But similar laws have been pushed across the nation, not by ignorant yahoos but by big corporations.

Specifically, language virtually identical to Florida’s law is featured in a template supplied to legislators in other states by the American Legislative Exchange Council, a corporate-backed organization that has managed to keep a low profile even as it exerts vast influence (only recently, thanks to yeoman work by the Center for Media and Democracy, has a clear picture of ALEC’s activities emerged). And if there is any silver lining to Trayvon Martin’s killing, it is that it might finally place a spotlight on what ALEC is doing to our society — and our democracy.

What is ALEC? Despite claims that it’s nonpartisan, it’s very much a movement-conservative organization, funded by the usual suspects: the Kochs, Exxon Mobil, and so on. Unlike other such groups, however, it doesn’t just influence laws, it literally writes them, supplying fully drafted bills to state legislators. In Virginia, for example, more than 50 ALEC-written bills have been introduced, many almost word for word. And these bills often become law.

Many ALEC-drafted bills pursue standard conservative goals: union-busting, undermining environmental protection, tax breaks for corporations and the wealthy. ALEC seems, however, to have a special interest in privatization — that is, on turning the provision of public services, from schools to prisons, over to for-profit corporations. And some of the most prominent beneficiaries of privatization, such as the online education company K12 Inc. and the prison operator Corrections Corporation of America, are, not surprisingly, very much involved with the organization.

What this tells us, in turn, is that ALEC’s claim to stand for limited government and free markets is deeply misleading. To a large extent the organization seeks not limited government but privatized government, in which corporations get their profits from taxpayer dollars, dollars steered their way by friendly politicians. In short, ALEC isn’t so much about promoting free markets as it is about expanding crony capitalism.

And in case you were wondering, no, the kind of privatization ALEC promotes isn’t in the public interest; instead of success stories, what we’re getting is a series of scandals. Private charter schools, for example, appear to deliver a lot of profits but little in the way of educational achievement.

But where does the encouragement of vigilante (in)justice fit into this picture? In part it’s the same old story — the long-standing exploitation of public fears, especially those associated with racial tension, to promote a pro-corporate, pro-wealthy agenda. It’s neither an accident nor a surprise that the National Rifle Association and ALEC have been close allies all along.

And ALEC, even more than other movement-conservative organizations, is clearly playing a long game. Its legislative templates aren’t just about generating immediate benefits to the organization’s corporate sponsors; they’re about creating a political climate that will favor even more corporation-friendly legislation in the future.

Did I mention that ALEC has played a key role in promoting bills that make it hard for the poor and ethnic minorities to vote?

Yet that’s not all; you have to think about the interests of the penal-industrial complex — prison operators, bail-bond companies and more. (The American Bail Coalition has publicly described ALEC as its “life preserver.”) This complex has a financial stake in anything that sends more people into the courts and the prisons, whether it’s exaggerated fear of racial minorities or Arizona’s draconian immigration law, a law that followed an ALEC template almost verbatim.

Think about that: we seem to be turning into a country where crony capitalism doesn’t just waste taxpayer money but warps criminal justice, in which growing incarceration reflects not the need to protect law-abiding citizens but the profits corporations can reap from a larger prison population.

Now, ALEC isn’t single-handedly responsible for the corporatization of our political life; its influence is as much a symptom as a cause. But shining a light on ALEC and its supporters — a roster that includes many companies, from AT&T and Coca-Cola to UPS, that have so far managed to avoid being publicly associated with the hard-right agenda — is one good way to highlight what’s going on. And that kind of knowledge is what we need to start taking our country back.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/26/opinion/krugman-lobbyists-guns-and-money.html?_r=3
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jbs49238

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #142 on: April 03, 2012, 06:46:37 AM »

Well, daaa.  The contention is that this LAW is what is being used (SYG) by calling it self defense.  I find it troubling that the lead Detective on the scene recommended he be charged with manslaughter but the Police Chief and DA arrived and said that there would be no charges made.  If things went as you want, that is where it would stay.  No investigation or questions, he just walks.  The media “hype” as you call it changed it to having an investigation now.  That does not mean he will be charged or not, but at least now there will be an investigation.  So, the LAW is a problem because if it is invoked then there is no investigation and no charges, oh, and no possible recourse in another court as the law prevents them being sued too.

A curious statement there duckie...

What have I typed in this thread that would lead you or anyone to think that is what I want...  Or are we just starting another game of "I am just going to say jbs said...."???

Citation needed, or you can retract and admit you lied.
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jbs49238

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #143 on: April 03, 2012, 06:51:22 AM »

Perhaps a self-inflicted wound to bolster his story.


I sometimes wonder if the injury to your head is self-inflicted as well... How else can you justify your next marvelous piece of work:

The white right-wing MT members are sure concerned about the right to kill blacks at will.

One would think the natural desire for justice would overcome their prejudice and they'd consider simply that a human being was gunned down for nothing but no....the gun nuts and racists are teaming up to defend the wrongdoing.

Good ole Monroetucky....land of the bigoted inbreds.

I think sammy nailed it (you) on the head... again.
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BigRedDog

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #144 on: April 03, 2012, 08:48:16 AM »

I believe that this was the exchange in question:

Dispatcher: “Are you following him.”
Zimmerman: “Yes”
Dispatcher: “OK, we don’t need you to do that.”

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/possible-slur-on-zimmerman-911-call-032112

I do not recall any requests for Zimmerman to remain in his vehicle.

Again, please provide the citation if I am mistaken.

I guess I wasn't aware that we were supposed to be using trial level "discovery rules" here on MT for our discussions...

If you're comfortable with your feelings and yourself on this scenario then it sure isn't bothering me any...

I can easily speculate that both parties would have been better off TODAY if Zimmerman would not have followed Martin!!!

I'm afraid at this point even if Zimmerman ultimately "wins" he'll still end up "losing" 8* 8* 8*

Btw...   I see there is at least one web site out there that is accepting donations for a defense fund for Zimmerman.
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Baggins

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #145 on: April 03, 2012, 09:37:12 AM »

The white right-wing MT members are sure concerned about the right to kill blacks at will.

One would think the natural desire for justice would overcome their prejudice and they'd consider simply that a human being was gunned down for nothing but no....the gun nuts and racists are teaming up to defend the wrongdoing.

Good ole Monroetucky....land of the bigoted inbreds.


I'll try to make this as clear as possible...

F*** Y** A**HOLE...!


I'm tired of your race baiting bull****.
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blue2

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #146 on: April 03, 2012, 09:49:53 AM »

Ha ha,  this case will be easy to solve now.  I see we have one of our frequent posters was an eye witness and knows exactly what happened.
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Baby Hitler

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #147 on: April 03, 2012, 09:54:15 AM »

They know where his is, he is hiding in plain sight.  If it were as cut and dry as you state HE WOULD BE in jail.  Personally I believe he will be found to be guilty of manslaughter, and I think from what I hear and see to be the most likely scenario of what actually happened.

Zim starts following Trayvon and calls 911.  911 tells him to stop persuing him... which he may of may not have done, that is what they pay the detectives to figure out.  I am sure a verbal exchange took place with whatever spoken leading Zim to fear (wether appropriately or not) for his personal safety.  Struggle ensues, Trayvon probably acted in a manner that caused Zim to think he had a gun, which as we all know is an erroneous conclusion.  Zim shoots, Trayvon dies, Zim claims self defense and now we MUST WAIT FOR THE SYSTEM TO WORK.

What almost everyone demanding Zim be arrested now is doing is allowing emotion to trump to the system.  Emotional reactions in cases like these are ill advised but as we all see... THE MEDIA and ATTENTION WHORES LOVE IT.

This will be my only comment on this topic, mainly because I mostly couldn't care less about it.  If Zim gets arrested and convicted based on the evidence I will be glad the system worked.  If he gets arrested because of sentiment and emotion, then only the MEDIA AND ATTENTION WHORES WIN.... AGAIN!
Well JBS, if everyone would have just "waited for the system to work" I doubt that Mr Zimmerman would ever go to trial.

Also, for someone who stated that this would be his only comment on this topic, you certainly have been Attention Whoring yourself for the last few pages...


Just sayin.
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ducksoup

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #148 on: April 03, 2012, 12:52:26 PM »

A curious statement there duckie...

What have I typed in this thread that would lead you or anyone to think that is what I want...  Or are we just starting another game of "I am just going to say jbs said...."???

Citation needed, or you can retract and admit you lied.


JBS.  See Fluffy’s post above, also, my own quote of you in that response I made.  You contend repeatedly that everyone should STFU and let the law take care of it.  What you still fail to see is that it did exactly that.  Zimmerman invoked SYG and the Police Chief and DA went to the crime scene and overrode the lead detective and said that there would be no charges, case over.  From that point there is no longer an investigation.  All that the people that you say should STFU did was get an investigation started.   

But, in the instance of you demanding a quote of yours to support that you “want”...  You “want”  the law to make a decision rather than the public, as I have said many times, they did, you had what you say that you want.  However, that decision lacked a real and complete investigation. 

A complete investigation may not change that he is claiming SYG and will walk anyway, but at least now there is an investigation.
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ducksoup

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Re: Shooting mystery: Miami-Dade teen killed by a crime watch captain
« Reply #149 on: April 03, 2012, 01:03:51 PM »

Since its passage in 2005, the "stand your ground'' law has protected people who have pursued another, initiated a confrontation and then used deadly force to defend themselves. Citing the law, judges have granted immunity to killers who put themselves in danger, so long as their pursuit was not criminal, so long as the person using force had a right to be there, and so long as he could convince the judge he was in fear of great danger or death.
 
The Tampa Bay Times has identified 140 cases across the state in which "stand your ground'' has been invoked, and many involve defendants whose lives were clearly in jeopardy. But at least a dozen share similarities with what we know about the Trayvon Martin case, and they show the law has not always worked as its sponsors say they intended.

Early morning, Jan. 25, 2011. Greyston Garcia was in his apartment in Miami when a roommate told him someone was stealing the radio from his truck.
Garcia grabbed a kitchen knife and ran outside. The burglar saw him coming, grabbed his bag of stolen radios and fled.
 
Rather than calling the police, Garcia chased the thief down the street and caught up to him a block away. The confrontation lasted less than a minute and was captured on surveillance video. The thief swung the bag of radios at Garcia, who blocked the bag with his left hand and stabbed the thief in the chest with his right.

Pedro Roteta, 26, died in the street.
Those are the facts. You be the judge.

Florida statute 776.013(3) says: (a) person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

The old law required a person to use every reasonable means available to retreat before using deadly force, except when the person was in his or her home or place of work. "Stand your ground" expands that to any other place where he or she has a right to be.
Should that be enough to protect Greyston Garcia from prosecution?

Does it help to know that a medical examiner testified that a blow from a 4- to 6-pound bag of metal to the head would cause great bodily harm, possibly even death? Does it change your mind to learn that police found a folding knife in the dead man's back pocket?

Does it matter that Garcia didn't call the police? That he went home and fell asleep? That he later sold the other stolen car stereos and hid the knife and denied killing anyone when police finally caught him?
 
The judge considered all those facts. In the end, she ruled that Garcia's use of force was justified. It didn't matter that he had chased the thief for a block with a knife in his hand.

All that mattered was what happened in those few seconds when the two men stood face to face.
 
"Mr. Zimmerman's unnecessary pursuit and confrontation of Trayvon Martin elevated the prospect of a violent episode and does not seem to be an act of self-defense as defined by the castle doctrine" wrote state Rep. Dennis Baxley, the Ocala Republican who co-authored the law, in a column March 21 for FOXNews.com. "There is no protection in the 'stand your ground' law for anyone who pursues and confronts people."

Lawyers say the bill's supporters are either uninformed or politically motivated.
 
"That's not what the law says," said Steven Romine, a Tampa Bay lawyer who has invoked "stand your ground" successfully. "They might think that in their own heads, but it's just not true.

"If you're doing something legal, no matter what the act is, and you're attacked, it's in that moment that you have a right to stand your ground."
Prosecutors, who are generally critical of the law, agree.
 
"The real issue is what happens around the 60 seconds prior to the shooting," said Ed Griffith, a spokesman for the Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office, which brought the charges against Greyston Garcia. "Everything else has emotional content, but from a legal perspective, it all comes down to the 60 seconds before the incident."

One of Romine's cases is a prime example. In 2008, his client, Charles Podany, noticed a truck speeding past his house in Thonotosassa, where his children play in the front yard. Podany fetched his handgun and rode his bicycle down the street to the house where the truck was parked to get a license plate number.

He found himself in a confrontation with Casey Landes, 24, who had been a passenger in the truck. Landes, legally drunk, attacked the smaller Podany and wound up on top of him. Podany drew his weapon and fired twice. The second bullet entered Landes' left cheek and struck the back of his skull, killing him instantly.

Podany was charged with manslaughter. But before trial, a judge ruled that despite initiating the confrontation by arming himself and riding his bicycle to the speeder's house, Podany was in a place he had a legal right to be and he was carrying a weapon he had a legal right to carry. He found that Podany feared for his life and had the right to defend himself with deadly force.

"There is not an exception to the law that says if you're doing something stupid, or risky, or not in your best interest, that 'stand your ground' doesn't apply," Romine said.

In May, Carlos Catalan-Flores, 26, a security guard at a Tampa strip club called Flash Dancers, confronted men who were drinking beer in the parking lot. One of the men threw a beer bottle at Catalan-Flores' head and prepared to throw another. Rather than taking cover inside the club, or using his baton or pepper spray to protect himself, Catalan-Flores drew his weapon and began firing. Several of the six shots hit the man who threw the beer.
A judge ruled that Catalan-Flores was justified, even though he initiated the confrontation. Being hit by a beer bottle constitutes a forcible felony, so he had the right to shoot, to protect himself.

"Fundamentally, this law is in place to protect us from prosecution and to allow us to protect ourselves," said Catalan-Flores' attorney, Joe Caimano. "If somebody takes it to the extreme, it will come out in the investigation."
 
Some extreme cases have tested the law.
A man got into a shootout on a Sarasota street, for instance, killing a man who owed him money and endangering bystanders. But a judge granted him immunity because a witness testified that his rival had claimed he had "fire in his pocket" and threatened the shooter. Police found no weapon at the scene, but that didn't matter. What mattered was that the shooter believed his enemy had a weapon and was ready to use it.
 
The court has even ruled that the statute can protect someone who shoots a retreating person. In overturning a ruling against Jimmy Hair, who shot a man who was retreating from a fight, a judge in Tallahassee wrote that the statute "makes no exception from the immunity when the victim is in retreat at the time the defensive force is employed."
 
Prosecutors argue that these types of cases should be brought before a jury.
"Jurors understand self-defense," said Griffith, the spokesman in Miami. "That's really where it should be."

Nine days after Trayvon Martin was shot dead in Sanford, Brandon Baker, 30, and his twin brother were driving separate cars toward the apartment they shared in Palm Harbor.
Seth Browning, a 23-year-old security guard who later told deputies he was concerned with Baker's erratic driving, pulled in close behind Baker to get his license tag number.
Baker turned off East Lake Road, then onto an access road and came to a stop, according to Pinellas sheriff's investigators. Browning followed and stopped behind Baker's Chevy truck.
Baker climbed out of his truck and walked to Browning's window. His brother, Chris, watching from behind, said Baker was trying to figure out why Browning was tailgating him.
Browning sprayed Baker with pepper spray, then shot him in the chest. He told deputies that Baker had punched him and he was in fear for his life. Browning called police as Chris Baker tried to revive his brother.
His father, Kevin Lindsay, rushed to the scene and watched as Browning was questioned at length. Then he learned the man who killed his son was released.

Baker's parents had never heard of the "stand your ground" law. Waiting for some type of action has exhausted them. They long for justice in what appears to them to be a clearly unjustifiable killing.

"I always knew that the law would protect you if somebody broke into your home. Sure, you can protect yourself," said his stepmother, Alex Lindsay. "But why did they have to expand it to protect people who do things like this?"
Their friends and family are just as shocked when they learn Browning might not be charged.
"They're incredulous," Alex Lindsay said.

More than 500 people have signed their online petition to get "stand your ground" repealed.
"This case is being considered a 'stand your ground' case and should not be since Seth Browning was the sole 'AGGRESSOR' and 'CHOSE' to tailgate, pull over, pepper spray, and shoot and kill Brandon Baker," it says. "Seth Browning did NOT act out of self defense and should be prosecuted for killing Brandon Baker."

But if history serves, the pursuit may not matter. The case will hinge on what happened in the moments before Browning pulled the trigger, and whether he feared for his life. Pinellas Sheriff Bob Gaultieri said this week that the case is still under investigation.

Baker's parents, like Martin's, are appalled that the law might protect the man who killed their son, and shocked that men who backed the law are saying they didn't know it could.

"Even if they had the best of intentions, they need to change this law," Alex Lindsay said. "They will never fully understand the repercussions of it."
"I don't wish this on anyone," said her husband. "And this is going to keep happening. It's going to happen to other families."
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/article1222930.ece

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