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Monrover

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #150 on: April 11, 2012, 09:18:20 AM »

The structure of our governmental form is as a constitutional republic.

The framework of that governmental form is the Constitution.

Taxes raised for the purpose of fulfilling the mandates within the Constitution are both moral and ethical.

By extension, taxes raised at the local level to fulfill mandates within charters, and local governance documents are also both moral and ethical.

ALL other taxes collected; which do not have a an enumerated position within the governance documents violate the morals and ethics of the governed from whom ALL power is derived.

JL's points are entirely valid.

The governed cannot lend their power to the government in order to forcibly collect taxes to support activities which are not the specified in the framework.

I am astounded that we don't have more protests taking place each day against blatantly illegal use of taxation powers.
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JL

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #151 on: April 11, 2012, 09:50:50 AM »

I agree with everything you said except the leap from constitutional to moral.  That's a logical fallacy -- an appeal to authority.  I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong, necessarily. 

Do you also consider slavery to have been moral when it was sanctioned by the constitution, prior to the inclusion of the 13th amendment? 

The structure of our governmental form is as a constitutional republic.

The framework of that governmental form is the Constitution.

Taxes raised for the purpose of fulfilling the mandates within the Constitution are both moral and ethical.

By extension, taxes raised at the local level to fulfill mandates within charters, and local governance documents are also both moral and ethical.

ALL other taxes collected; which do not have a an enumerated position within the governance documents violate the morals and ethics of the governed from whom ALL power is derived.

JL's points are entirely valid.

The governed cannot lend their power to the government in order to forcibly collect taxes to support activities which are not the specified in the framework.

I am astounded that we don't have more protests taking place each day against blatantly illegal use of taxation powers.

Baggins

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #152 on: April 11, 2012, 10:08:06 AM »

That is completely wrong. The only reason people think they are non taxable is because there is no trail. I believe the State of Michigan gives people a break who only have garage sales once or twice a year.

If you sell the items for a gain, then you have a capital gain. However, if you sell them at a loss you get no deduction because they are a personal use asset.

"if you sold an item you owned for personal use, such as a car, refrigerator, furniture, stereo, jewelry, or silverware, your gain is taxable as a capital gain."
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p525.pdf
Page 35



OK, I see what you're saying, making a profit off of something you sell "should" be declared and I understand that...But, that has nothing to do with the question I asked, "do you pay taxes at a garage sale?", as in sales tax...Is that something people should do as well...?

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LetsGoWings

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #153 on: April 11, 2012, 11:26:59 AM »


OK, I see what you're saying, making a profit off of something you sell "should" be declared and I understand that...But, that has nothing to do with the question I asked, "do you pay taxes at a garage sale?", as in sales tax...Is that something people should do as well...?

Sales tax is a state issue.

Technically in Michigan you should be doing that.
Quote
Do I need a sales tax license if I only plan to make retail sales at a couple of events per year?

If you make retail sales at only one or two events in Michigan per year you may complete the Form 2271, Concessionaire's Sales Tax Return and Payment. If you prefer to obtain a sales tax license you may complete Form 518, Registration for Michigan Taxes.

http://www.michigan.gov/taxes/0,1607,7-238-43529-154427--,00.html

I think somewhere in the Michigan code they give you an exemption if you fall below a certain threshold, but I am not 100% sure on that.

Realistically, the amount of people that do pay sales tax on garage sales is probably extremely low. The only example I can think of where there might be an issue would be something like a community garage sale, but even then I doubt they actually pay sales tax.

If you buy something online and they do not withhold sales tax on it you are supposed to report that as well, line 22 of MI-1040.
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JL

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #154 on: April 11, 2012, 11:35:08 AM »

Sales tax is not required on most garage sale items because those items have already been used to collect sales tax when they were initially purchased.  They find a way to get your money one way or another.  Sometimes through inflating the currency, sometimes by pushing it of to a later date through debt.  And sometimes by taxing producers who always pass the cost on to the consumer through prices that higher than they would otherwise be.  but i'm not interested in quibbling about the techniques used to extract wealth from people against their will, or what level of government is responsible for a particular tax.  I'm asking the more fundamental question: Is taxation moral? 

Sales tax is a state issue.

Technically in Michigan you should be doing that.http://www.michigan.gov/taxes/0,1607,7-238-43529-154427--,00.html

I think somewhere in the Michigan code they give you an exemption if you fall below a certain threshold, but I am not 100% sure on that.

Realistically, the amount of people that do pay sales tax on garage sales is probably extremely low. The only example I can think of where there might be an issue would be something like a community garage sale, but even then I doubt they actually pay sales tax.

If you buy something online and they do not withhold sales tax on it you are supposed to report that as well, line 22 of MI-1040.

LetsGoWings

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #155 on: April 11, 2012, 11:53:25 AM »

Sales tax is not required on most garage sale items because those items have already been used to collect sales tax when they were initially purchased.  They find a way to get your money one way or another.  Sometimes through inflating the currency, sometimes by pushing it of to a later date through debt.  And sometimes by taxing producers who always pass the cost on to the consumer through prices that higher than they would otherwise be.  but i'm not interested in quibbling about the techniques used to extract wealth from people against their will, or what level of government is responsible for a particular tax.  I'm asking the more fundamental question: Is taxation moral?

Quote
Sales for Resale. Section 2 of the General Sales Tax Act [MCL 205.52] imposes
sales tax only upon sales at retail. Sales of property intended for resale are not sales
at retail and are exempt.
Claims for exemption by retailers acquiring property for subsequent sale at retail shall
state the claim for exemption as “for resale at retail.” Retailers in Michigan are issued
sales tax license numbers that must be included on the exemption form. If a retailer is
not required to have a Michigan sales tax license number, it may include its home
state’s or country’s sales tax license number on the exemption form in lieu of the
Michigan sales tax license number.
Wholesalers that make no retail sales are not licensed with the Department and are
not issued sales tax license numbers. Wholesalers buying for resale should indicate
“for resale at wholesale” on the Certificate of Exemption.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/RAB2002-15_96132_7.pdf

That is what people conducting a few garage sales a year would fall under. However, if an individual was trying to make a living off a garage sale, then the state and IRS would find a way to argue that what they are engaging in is a schedule C business.

So, to answer Baggins question "do you pay taxes at a garage sale?", as in sales tax...Is that something people should do as well...?   
No, if you only have a few sales a year because the item is a resale. However, if you make it a habit of having a weekly garage sale the individual might have a hard time arguing all the items are resale items.

Now walk through the tax transactions of buying and selling a car.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 11:58:59 AM by LetsGoWings »
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Monrover

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #156 on: April 11, 2012, 03:34:21 PM »

<snip>
Do you also consider slavery to have been moral when it was sanctioned by the constitution, prior to the inclusion of the 13th amendment?

Immoral.

JL, do you consider slavery to have been moral ....prior to the 13th amendment?

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JL

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #157 on: April 11, 2012, 03:47:22 PM »

I assumed you didn't, and neither do I.  I was just pointing out that an argument from the constitution, or any law for that matter, is not valid. 

Immoral.

JL, do you consider slavery to have been moral ....prior to the 13th amendment?

Monrover

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #158 on: April 11, 2012, 04:11:03 PM »

I assumed you didn't, and neither do I.  I was just pointing out that an argument from the constitution, or any law for that matter, is not valid.

Thanks.
I was pointing out that the original intent of the framework documents was to severely limit the powers of government.

Since we all have rights which come from natural law (or a Creator being, depending on your worldview) and we have only lent those rights to the government on a limited basis in order to accomplish very limited outcomes; that those rights are very moral and ethical. Since those rights are moral and ethical and the loan of the rights is also moral and ethical and the intending limited use and outcome of the loaned rights is ethical and moral; it also true that the original documents are useful in defining the very limited and very specific ways in which a government can impose constructs on society.

Those constructs cannot allow the government to do anything that the individual cannot do for themselves on their own. For example, I have the right to self-defense and I can loan that right to a government for my defense also. I do not have the right to an unprovoked attack on another person, therefor I cannot loan the government a right to do so on my behalf. 
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Forsythia

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #159 on: April 11, 2012, 04:39:55 PM »

Here's the thing, do any of you actually think about the consequences of not having a formal government and taxation to support it?  It's one thing to have a supreme moral idea, but another thing to see what happens when you try to implement it.  I was once a hard line socialist until JLopened my eyes and made me realize that true Socialism would only work in a Utopian society.  The same thing goes for a Libertarian society.

Oh and Monrover taxes are voluntary.  If you want examples let me know.
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JL

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #160 on: April 11, 2012, 05:03:22 PM »

The concept of our constitutional form of government is quite compelling, and it has led to the most prosperous eras ever.  But that is not to say it's not flawed.  In fact, the constitution is all but meaningless now.  It does very little to restrain government. 

The prosperity achieved was a double edged sword.  Because is was realized with a powerful central government in place, it allowed the federal government to amass an empire of unimaginable scale.  And as history demonstrates, this is never a good thing.  The result has been less freedom domestically, reckless economic policy that will eventually unravel, and a foreign policy that is devastating for large parts of the world. 

To a more specific point, I believe we have innate rights because of our self ownership.  We are the sole owners of ourselves and no one can justly make a higher claim on us.  It follows that we own the products of our labor. 

It is completely acceptable to delegate certain responsibilities to others.  But it has to be done on a voluntary basis.  We are born into this world, without consent, within certain jurisdictions by mere chance.  It is preposterous to assume that because we live within certain imaginary lines drawn up by stranger, that we have somehow consent to their rules, monopoly services, and taxation. 

Some people might have no problem paying into a system and supporting the activities of their rulers.  That's fine, but not everyone consents.  And no percentage of the population can ever justifiably initiate violence against the rest of the population. 

Morally speaking, you are correct, the government (or any group) cannot justly do anything an individual cannot do.   Murder is still murder when done by a large group of people.  And theft is still theft when carried out by any number of people and given another name, like taxation. 

The problem is, the government, as it currently is, does not operate this way.  And the constitution does very little to restrain it. 



Thanks.
I was pointing out that the original intent of the framework documents was to severely limit the powers of government.

Since we all have rights which come from natural law (or a Creator being, depending on your worldview) and we have only lent those rights to the government on a limited basis in order to accomplish very limited outcomes; that those rights are very moral and ethical. Since those rights are moral and ethical and the loan of the rights is also moral and ethical and the intending limited use and outcome of the loaned rights is ethical and moral; it also true that the original documents are useful in defining the very limited and very specific ways in which a government can impose constructs on society.

Those constructs cannot allow the government to do anything that the individual cannot do for themselves on their own. For example, I have the right to self-defense and I can loan that right to a government for my defense also. I do not have the right to an unprovoked attack on another person, therefor I cannot loan the government a right to do so on my behalf.

Monrover

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #161 on: April 11, 2012, 05:22:46 PM »

<snip>
The problem is, the government, as it currently is, does not operate this way.  And the constitution does very little to restrain it.

May I offer that the Constitution does very much to restrain the situation you describe. What is lacking isn't the Constitution, but rather the will of the governed and the elected representatives of the governed to abide by the Constitution.
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JL

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #162 on: April 11, 2012, 05:33:34 PM »

That's true.  But the constitution is only a piece of paper.  The will of the people is the only thing that really matters.  That's what I'm trying to do is make people realize that putting power into the hands of a small group of people is a bad idea even if they are supposedly restrained by a document.  They've then given up their power and are relying on the good will of those who seek power.  And if we know anything about those who seek power and what power does to those who seek it, we know this is a recipe for disaster. 

In other words: I'm not trying to force my ideas on anyone.  That's ethically incompatible.  I'm pointing out what's right and what's wrong.  And hopefully overtime (perhaps many generations) government, like feudalism, slavery, segregation, etc., will become obsolete, as people realize that there is a more peaceful, rational, and efficient way to interact with one another. 

I'm not talking about a Utopian society.  There will undoubtedly still remain some who will seek to gain at the expense of others, rather than through mutual benefit.  There will just be far better and ethical solutions.  It will take time.  Some people will never accept it, but the number of those people will dwindle in future generations. 

May I offer that the Constitution does very much to restrain the situation you describe. What is lacking isn't the Constitution, but rather the will of the governed and the elected representatives of the governed to abide by the Constitution.

Forsythia

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #163 on: April 11, 2012, 06:07:34 PM »

So what is your alternative?  Do you suggest that all laws be passed by a 100% vote of the population?  How do you determine when someone gets the right to represent themselves?

Basic questions.  Please answer them.
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Forsythia

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Re: Fascism Advancing
« Reply #164 on: April 11, 2012, 06:21:27 PM »

I'm more liberal than most, but I believe that we have a great system that allows change.  We're seeing it every day.  People of different ideas are able to voice what they feel is wrong and try to change what they feel is wrong.  Sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose.  The point is there is a progression in thought.  You get exposed to new ideas, you flesh them out, anf you hope they work.

The USA started off as an experiment, and so far it has worked.  The great thing about it is that this country is malleable, and despite our differences we remain mostly united.  Extremes on both ends are allowed to exist, as long as the extremists dont harm anyone.
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Ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.  The rest of us have to put up with you idiots.

"Prayer is nothing more than bargain basement anger." A. LaVey


"A christian telling an atheist he is going to hell is about as scary as a small child telling an adult they won't get any presents from santa." - R. Gervais
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