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[jbs49238]

My question to you was, should I be able to do that without the threat of interference by a 3rd party?  In other words do I have the right to exchange freely with other consenting adults.  You have said yes, but then you always immediately contradict yourself with exclusions.  Now, I understand why you are struggling with this.  That's why I asked the question -- to make you think about your position.   Most people just don't answer my questions.  So thanks for at least making the effort.  But please try to just answer this honestly and candidly:

Should I be able to exchange freely with other consenting adults?  In other words, do I have the right to trade with other consenting adults without the threat of interference by a 3rd party?

I have told you yes several times... are you dense?  Heck you can sell your furniture to kids to give the their parents as gifts for all I care.  What stops you from doing this exactly?

I already told you, the neighborhood kid mowes lawns all day long during the growing season, not a third party in sight.

Now I have answered your question like 4 times, could you please answer mine and stop punting.

[JL]

I'm not asking what is possible now.  that was in no part of the question.  It's terribly difficult watching you people try to weasel out of answering questions honestly because you know it's going to reveal the contradictions you hold.   I asked a simple yes or no question:

Should I be able to exchange freely with other consenting adults?  In other words, do I have the right to trade with other consenting adults without the threat of interference by a 3rd party?

Either you think I have the right exchange freely or you don't.  I'm more than willing to hear why you believe one way or another, but we need to establish your position in order for the conversation to move forward in any meaningful way.  I don't care what the neighborhood kid does, or what your friends have done.  I want to know what you believe.  Do I have the right to trade with other consenting adults without the threat of interference by a 3rd party?

I have told you yes several times... are you dense?  Heck you can sell your furniture to kids to give the their parents as gifts for all I care.  What stops you from doing this exactly?

I already told you, the neighborhood kid mowes lawns all day long during the growing season, not a third party in sight.

Now I have answered your question like 4 times, could you please answer mine and stop punting.

[Forsythia]

Jbs...he punted.....it's really sad you cant understand basic concepts JL...

[jbs49238]

I'm not asking what is possible now.  that was in no part of the question.  It's terribly difficult watching you people try to weasel out of answering questions honestly because you know it's going to reveal the contradictions you hold.   I asked a simple yes or no question:

Should I be able to exchange freely with other consenting adults?  In other words, do I have the right to trade with other consenting adults without the threat of interference by a 3rd party?

Either you think I have the right exchange freely or you don't.  I'm more than willing to hear why you believe one way or another, but we need to establish your position in order for the conversation to move forward in any meaningful way.  I don't care what the neighborhood kid does, or what your friends have done.  I want to know what you believe.  Do I have the right to trade with other consenting adults without the threat of interference by a 3rd party?

AGAIN..................................................... Y E S ................................................

I am not sure how to make that any clearer... now why won't you answer my question:

What stops you?

[JL]

So you agree that taxation is wrong, since it is a forceful interference by a 3rd party?

THAT is what is stopping a person who tries to freely exchange.  The very threat of taxation renders the exchange un-free.   It cannot be free and taxed simultaneously. 

AGAIN..................................................... Y E S ................................................

I am not sure how to make that any clearer... now why won't you answer my question:

What stops you?

[Forsythia]

Wow that was a leap.  How exactly is the government interfering with your transaction again?

[Forsythia]

Here's a good scenario.  Let's say that we're all living in Libertopia.  You know, a magical land where people can exchange goods and services for whatever we see fit, and discrimination runs rampant because people call it freedom of association. 

Let's say that I'm born to a family that exchanges its work for room and board.  Let's also say that it was slipped into the contract that the person my mom and dad work for slipped in a nice little clause where part of the duties for my mom was to bang the owner of the contract.

Let's say that i am automatically associated with this contract until I become emancipated from my parents.  At that time i can choose to exit that contract my parents entered into.  Ok, so when i reach the age where i can get out of the contract, i dont.  All i do is complain and moan about it.  Who's fault is it that I'm in a situation I dont like?  Is it mine or my parents because they choose to get involved with this dude?

[jbs49238]

So you agree that taxation is wrong, since it is a forceful interference by a 3rd party?

THAT is what is stopping a person who tries to freely exchange.  The very threat of taxation renders the exchange un-free.   It cannot be free and taxed simultaneously. 

Nope I do not agree.  I see no forceful interference by any third party as it relates to taxation, I see voluntary exchange.

There is absolutely ZERO reason you cannot build a chair and sell it to someone for $100 cash money without a third party involved.

I have given you numerous examples within this thread of people who exchange their labor or goods without and third party involvment EVERY DAY. 

Your big trip up is wanting to use the terms free and voluntary interchangeably.  Those are not interchangeable words.  Every transaction is voluntary, they are not all free.

[jbs49238]

You are suggesting that the threat of taxation makes an exchange un-free?  Even when no taxation takes place?  Are you afraid of your shadow as well?

[JL]

you said you owned a business.  Could you have operated that business without paying taxes or charging sales tax on customers and not be threatened by the government? 

Nope I do not agree.  I see no forceful interference by any third party as it relates to taxation, I see voluntary exchange.

There is absolutely ZERO reason you cannot build a chair and sell it to someone for $100 cash money without a third party involved.

I have given you numerous examples within this thread of people who exchange their labor or goods without and third party involvment EVERY DAY. 

Your big trip up is wanting to use the terms free and voluntary interchangeably.  Those are not interchangeable words.  Every transaction is voluntary, they are not all free.

[Skittelroo]

Who's fault is it that I'm in a situation I dont like?  Is it mine or my parents because they choose to get involved with this dude?

I'm nearly rolling on the floor laughing at this entire discussion.   

(for the record, if someone came and washed my car without my permission, I'd either think they were incredibly nice, or incredibly stupid if they expected payment.    I might even call the padded wagon)

[LetsGoWings]

Are we considering the IRS, state government, or the federal government a third party? If so, it is extremely hard to avoid third party interference if you are entering into legal transactions. With that said, taxation is a necessary cost.

[Forsythia]

you said you owned a business.  Could you have operated that business without paying taxes or charging sales tax on customers and not be threatened by the government?

I know plenty of people who do just that. In fact i have a business that i run that I pay no taxes on.

[JL]

would you not be compelled to hand over your wallet by a gun pressed to your back because the trigger had not yet been pulled?  let's try to think clearly here.  we know the consequences of not paying taxes.  and we know that taxation is not voluntary.  and we know that if you want to own a business or have a reasonable job, you are going to be compelled to pay taxes.  So if you condone such a system, then you cannot also believe that we have the right to exchange freely and voluntarily with other consenting adults.

You are suggesting that the threat of taxation makes an exchange un-free?  Even when no taxation takes place?  Are you afraid of your shadow as well?

[JL]

I appreciate your honesty.  I'm not sure why everyone else wants to play dumb. 

Are we considering the IRS, state government, or the federal government a third party? If so, it is extremely hard to avoid third party interference if you are entering into legal transactions. With that said, taxation is a necessary cost.