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[BigRedDog]

i'm not sure why I post things here, thinking there will be any meaningful discussion.  why are people afraid to think?

Most are thinking JL...  and that's exactly why they're not bothering to reply...   

Most of us know "you" can't enter into a meaningful discussion...   

all you can do is one of these round robin, tail chasing bait and switch "arguments"...

the numbers speak for themselves

This thread is a perfect example...   I saw your original question and answered it the best way I knew how...  and then you turned it into the old "why should I pay taxes if I don't like where the money is being used" twist... 

I figured you were in one of the two groups...   didn't work so didn't have any to pay or worked and weren't paying.  I admire the people with enough gumption to make money and refuse to pay their taxes.  But the ones that come on a forum and whine and complain about it and then turn around and just pay them on April 15th are nothing but hypocrites

[BigRedDog]

I posted something that sheds more light on injustice.  I posted it because I would like people to be aware of what is going on.  It would be great if no one disagreed and showed concern over an ever encroaching state.  I did not expect that to happen.  The response was the typical  wave of inane comments replete with logical fallacies or completely disregarding the topic all together. 

I have no problem with people disagreeing and engaging in civil debate.  My problem is that people in these forums so rarely put forward a logical argument for their assertions (if they even make an assertion). 

In past threads people have found themselves caught in such twisted contradictions that the most stubborn of them have eventually said things like it is an absolute truth that there is no absolute truth, rape is ok in some situations, etc.  Others just give up and refuse to answer my questions (kind of like BigRedDog has done in this thread).  I'm going to continue to put forward my argument until people agree or they can show me how I am wrong (using reason and evidence).  I remain open to correction, as always.

I explained that in my previous post...   you started off by posting a somewhat reasonable question and once I responded you immediately turned it into what I have always called "paint my house pink" argument...

Way back in 1969 when I got drafted into the army there was another draftee there.  He had similar feelings on paying taxes (I've often wondered why he didn't also have a similar feeling on allowing himself to be drafted, but that's another thread I guess) as you do.  Originally several of us would discuss the topic while we were spending endless hours shining our boots and stuff like that.  But of course he was a lot like you...  not really into discussion, but more into steering the discussion in a circle.  It wasn't long that most of the guys would just avoid him...  much like the masses on MT avoid you!!!

I kind of felt sorry for the guy and didn't shun him at first.  He wasn't an all bad guy otherwise...   he spent a lot of time reading his bible I noticed.  For those not familiar with basic training rules (at least in 1969) a trainee wasn't allowed to have much in the way of personal possessions, but a bible was allowed.  One day I discovered his "bible" was just the leather cover off a real bible that he had glued to a book he had ordered from the back of one of the magazines...   It was titled something along the line of "why you shouldn't have to pay taxes" or "how to avoid paying taxes"...   I'm not sure which but the message was the same.  He probably paid around $40 for the book at that time.  I've often wondered how far he made it with his bible after we left Ft. Bragg? 

Anyway, he had managed to tone things down somewhat and a few people were starting to hang around him again.  Then one night he threw out the "paint your house pink" argument...   and that was the end of people listening to his rants.  I happened to look at his "bible" one day and sure enough there was a picture about in the middle of the book of somebody painting a house pink. 

Years later I encountered another "tax protester"...   but he had "invested" in a set of audio tapes...  not sure if it was a 10 pack or the even more economical 20 pack.  You'd see 'em hawking them on late night television though.  I was pretty sure it was from the same "author" because he used the same "paint your house pink" analogy quite often.

So, I'm guessin' maybe you made your investment into a 3 or 5 pack of DVDs...  not something I've actually followed, but I imagine since the same "paint your house pink" theme is still involved it's from the same author...   and, since he's still hawkin' his goods to anyone that will pay up I'm thinking he's probably paying his own taxes year after year.

Now the ball is back in your end of the court...  you might as well hold onto it because I've made my last post on this topic.  If you really don't want to pay any taxes then don't work.  If you really, really feel strongly about it then work and don't pay the taxes. 

As far as the pink house goes...   we frequently take Dixie Highway south to Toledo... there's an old red clay brick house down by the state line that's been painted pink (rather attractive too)...  every time I see that house I think of the "pink house painters" that think they should get a free ride on taxes...

Out of curiosity, just how much did you pay for your set of DVDs

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.748013,-83.522052&spn=0.001595,0.003484&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=41.748116,-83.521997&panoid=lrxqCsyQ9fVMpAHywTatgw&cbp=12,145.38,,0,2.85

[Forsythia]

Same argument, no rational thought.  If you want to see what a tax free society will end up like, i suggest you move to Somalia.

[JL]

I pay taxes under duress.  I'll mention it one more time, since no one seems to understand this:  taxes are not voluntary.  If you wish to take part in almost any facet of society, including mutually beneficial exchanges between consenting adults, you are going to be faced with taxation.  These activities are not privileges -- they are basic rights.  If you refuse to pay these taxes, you run the risk of being caged.  If you resist, they will use guns (yes, they have guns, and they do use them).  If you continue to resist, you will be shot and killed. 

I pay for the same reason that I would pay a mugger who has a gun to my back -- because it's preferable to the alternative.  But my decision does not justify the action which put me in that position. 

Why did you pay your taxes again this year?

[JL]

again, you are not making any arguments.  i'm trying to have a discussion, but you refuse to address the issues, or make any valid arguments.  I have no way of verifying your story but most of what you are saying sound quite fishy.  I've never read the book you are speaking of.  I've never heard or read the "pink house analogy, but I would not be surprised if someone had used a similar analogy in the past.  It makes for a good argument, which is why no one responds to it.  Instead they do as you are doing, and try to change the subject, or start rambling and throwing out logical fallacies.

clearly you do not understand the point of the analogy.   

I explained that in my previous post...   you started off by posting a somewhat reasonable question and once I responded you immediately turned it into what I have always called "paint my house pink" argument...

Way back in 1969 when I got drafted into the army there was another draftee there.  He had similar feelings on paying taxes (I've often wondered why he didn't also have a similar feeling on allowing himself to be drafted, but that's another thread I guess) as you do.  Originally several of us would discuss the topic while we were spending endless hours shining our boots and stuff like that.  But of course he was a lot like you...  not really into discussion, but more into steering the discussion in a circle.  It wasn't long that most of the guys would just avoid him...  much like the masses on MT avoid you!!!

I kind of felt sorry for the guy and didn't shun him at first.  He wasn't an all bad guy otherwise...   he spent a lot of time reading his bible I noticed.  For those not familiar with basic training rules (at least in 1969) a trainee wasn't allowed to have much in the way of personal possessions, but a bible was allowed.  One day I discovered his "bible" was just the leather cover off a real bible that he had glued to a book he had ordered from the back of one of the magazines...   It was titled something along the line of "why you shouldn't have to pay taxes" or "how to avoid paying taxes"...   I'm not sure which but the message was the same.  He probably paid around $40 for the book at that time.  I've often wondered how far he made it with his bible after we left Ft. Bragg? 

Anyway, he had managed to tone things down somewhat and a few people were starting to hang around him again.  Then one night he threw out the "paint your house pink" argument...   and that was the end of people listening to his rants.  I happened to look at his "bible" one day and sure enough there was a picture about in the middle of the book of somebody painting a house pink. 

Years later I encountered another "tax protester"...   but he had "invested" in a set of audio tapes...  not sure if it was a 10 pack or the even more economical 20 pack.  You'd see 'em hawking them on late night television though.  I was pretty sure it was from the same "author" because he used the same "paint your house pink" analogy quite often.

So, I'm guessin' maybe you made your investment into a 3 or 5 pack of DVDs...  not something I've actually followed, but I imagine since the same "paint your house pink" theme is still involved it's from the same author...   and, since he's still hawkin' his goods to anyone that will pay up I'm thinking he's probably paying his own taxes year after year.

Now the ball is back in your end of the court...  you might as well hold onto it because I've made my last post on this topic.  If you really don't want to pay any taxes then don't work.  If you really, really feel strongly about it then work and don't pay the taxes. 

As far as the pink house goes...   we frequently take Dixie Highway south to Toledo... there's an old red clay brick house down by the state line that's been painted pink (rather attractive too)...  every time I see that house I think of the "pink house painters" that think they should get a free ride on taxes...

Out of curiosity, just how much did you pay for your set of DVDs

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.748013,-83.522052&spn=0.001595,0.003484&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=41.748116,-83.521997&panoid=lrxqCsyQ9fVMpAHywTatgw&cbp=12,145.38,,0,2.85

[ussoccer26]

Actually if you voluntarily earned your money within the system... YES YOU SHOULD.  If the system offends you, be a man, square up, and go.  Honestly no one will stop you.

That new bill would stop someone. I'm just saying it's not worth the extra $ to put someone in a cell just to forcibly extract taxes out of them when they are trying to leave.

[jbs49238]

I pay taxes under duress.  I'll mention it one more time, since no one seems to understand this:  taxes are not voluntary.  If you wish to take part in almost any facet of society, including mutually beneficial exchanges between consenting adults, you are going to be faced with taxation.  These activities are not privileges -- they are basic rights.  If you refuse to pay these taxes, you run the risk of being caged.  If you resist, they will use guns (yes, they have guns, and they do use them).  If you continue to resist, you will be shot and killed. 

I pay for the same reason that I would pay a mugger who has a gun to my back -- because it's preferable to the alternative.  But my decision does not justify the action which put me in that position. 

I throw the BS flag on your entire post.  You pay because you choose to pay. 

I know individuals that have worked outside the system (under the table) for years and years, never paid a dime of taxes, well except on their unemployment that is.  I know business owners that have done the same... hid every dime of profits, "never had an employee" even though they were always hiring, which made it damn near impossible for anyone to start a similar type business in their town unless they wanted to cheat too... their costs were lower of course so they could charge less... pay less... take home more, drive new cars, live in a nice house that was are paid in full.... with cash.... just as you dream to do.

My message to you is, if you are so damn fed up, FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOUR SELF, crooks have been crooked for decades, you should have no problem fitting in.

[jbs49238]

That new bill would stop someone. I'm just saying it's not worth the extra $ to put someone in a cell just to forcibly extract taxes out of them when they are trying to leave.

We just gonna let folks start eating at the diner and leave without paying there too?

[JL]

I stated facts.  I'm sure taxes can be avoided with enough effort, although the risk still remains.  The point is, in order to do so, you must forego some basic rights.  Why should you have to operate underground, hide money, and keep exchanges between honest consenting adults hidden, in order to avoid having your earnings taken? 

i'm not talking about my situation.  it's the principle.  how can taking a person's honest earnings by gunpoint if necessary, be justified? 

I'm not concerned with having more money.  I don't need more money.  All I "dream" of is a society where people interact voluntarily, and at least recognize when an action is immoral.  taking a person's earnings from them without consent is an initiation of violence no matter what uniform the extractor is wearing or what fancy title they've been given -- or for you democracy lovers -- no matter how many people agree with the extractor.  theft is theft. 

I throw the BS flag on your entire post.  You pay because you choose to pay. 

I know individuals that have worked outside the system (under the table) for years and years, never paid a dime of taxes, well except on their unemployment that is.  I know business owners that have done the same... hid every dime of profits, "never had an employee" even though they were always hiring, which made it damn near impossible for anyone to start a similar type business in their town unless they wanted to cheat too... their costs were lower of course so they could charge less... pay less... take home more, drive new cars, live in a nice house that was are paid in full.... with cash.... just as you dream to do.

My message to you is, if you are so damn fed up, FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOUR SELF, crooks have been crooked for decades, you should have no problem fitting in.

[jbs49238]

again, you are not making any arguments.  i'm trying to have a discussion, but you refuse to address the issues, or make any valid arguments.  I have no way of verifying your story but most of what you are saying sound quite fishy.  I've never read the book you are speaking of.  I've never heard or read the "pink house analogy, but I would not be surprised if someone had used a similar analogy in the past.  It makes for a good argument, which is why no one responds to it.  Instead they do as you are doing, and try to change the subject, or start rambling and throwing out logical fallacies.

clearly you do not understand the point of the analogy.   

So you have never heard of it... but it makes a good argument?  Even though BRD never went into what that argument was.... so you have heard of it then? 

I know, I know, you looked it up AFTER BRD posted about it.....  Riiiiiiggggghhhhttttt.

[ussoccer26]

We just gonna let folks start eating at the diner and leave without paying there too?

Hey. I'm just saying it doesn't seem to be worth the damn trouble. How many people are actually leaving anyway, probably so few that it wouldn't be worth paying for the jail cells. You do realize how small of a percentage those people would make up out of the entire budget.

[JL]

he was saying that i borrowed the argument from another source (which btw I often do, and there is nothing wrong with that).  I said I had never heard that analogy made by anyone else.  So I really have no idea what you are trying to criticize me about.  Can we please stay on topic?

So you have never heard of it... but it makes a good argument?  Even though BRD never went into what that argument was.... so you have heard of it then? 

I know, I know, you looked it up AFTER BRD posted about it.....  Riiiiiiggggghhhhttttt.

[jbs49238]

I stated facts.  I'm sure taxes can be avoided with enough effort, although the risk still remains.  The point is, in order to do so, you must forego some basic rights.  Why should you have to operate underground, hide money, and keep exchanges between honest consenting adults hidden, in order to avoid having your earnings taken? 

i'm not talking about my situation.  it's the principle.  how can taking a person's honest earnings by gunpoint if necessary, be justified? 

I'm not concerned with having more money.  I don't need more money.  All I "dream" of is a society where people interact voluntarily, and at least recognize when an action is immoral.  taking a person's earnings from them without consent is an initiation of violence no matter what uniform the extractor is wearing or what fancy title they've been given -- or for you democracy lovers -- no matter how many people agree with the extractor.  theft is theft. 

What basic rights did my example forego?  Guess what, even when you don't pay your taxes you are STILL entitled to all the rights our Constitution guarantees, up to your conviction date that is.

If you appropriately pay as determined by the voluntary agreement you enter into when you become employed or open a business, then the guns would never have to come out then would they?

See JL the guns only show up when you cheat, and usually WELL AFTER you have had a chance to correct your "oversights".  How many people who go to jail for tax evasion do you think were "SHOCKED" when the IRS showed up at their door?  NONE!  They got greedy and got caught... simple as that.

[jbs49238]

he was saying that i borrowed the argument from another source (which btw I often do, and there is nothing wrong with that).  I said I had never heard that analogy made by anyone else.  So I really have no idea what you are trying to criticize me about.  Can we please stay on topic?

Ahhh but you said it made a good argument in the same post where you said you hadn't hear of it, but you did know about it... don't bother tap dancing around it, you told a fib... it's OK, back to the topic.

[jbs49238]

Hey. I'm just saying it doesn't seem to be worth the damn trouble. How many people are actually leaving anyway, probably so few that it wouldn't be worth paying for the jail cells. You do realize how small of a percentage those people would make up out of the entire budget.

So as long as it is only a few?  What about a few more?  Then just a few more?  At what point does it get to where you NEED to pay attention?  1%? 3%?  If the "small percentage" is not to be dealt with, then why anyone else?