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[jbs49238]

he was saying that i borrowed the argument from another source (which btw I often do, and there is nothing wrong with that).  I said I had never heard that analogy made by anyone else.  So I really have no idea what you are trying to criticize me about.  Can we please stay on topic?

Atually, I apologize, I am not even sure why I even started in with you this morning, you have already come full cirlce with your gun to the back, under duress, free to exchange your labor without paying taxes schtick just as you always do.  No point in continuing the next circle will look the same as the last.

[JL]

that's begging the question.  You're assuming that it's cheating to not pay taxes and then using that to justify the violence. 

i'll say it yet again:  we have the right to exchange freely with one another.  If you have a product or service that i desire and i have something that you desire and we agree to make an exchange we ought to be free to make this exchange without threat of violence from a 3rd party. 

This right is obviously suspended under a system that involves taxation.  sure, i can avoid taxation by not making the transaction, but that transaction is my right. 

imagine if there was a tax on speech.  you would (hopefully) say that's crazy.  we have the right to free speech, it can't be taxed.  that's true.  and we also have the right to the fruits of our labor.  and we have the right to freely transact with one another.  so why would you be against a tax on free speech but not free exchanges? 

What basic rights did my example forego?  Guess what, even when you don't pay your taxes you are STILL entitled to all the rights our Constitution guarantees, up to your conviction date that is.

If you appropriately pay as determined by the voluntary agreement you enter into when you become employed or open a business, then the guns would never have to come out then would they?

See JL the guns only show up when you cheat, and usually WELL AFTER you have had a chance to correct your "oversights".  How many people who go to jail for tax evasion do you think were "SHOCKED" when the IRS showed up at their door?  NONE!  They got greedy and got caught... simple as that.

[JL]

so you don't believe you have the right to exchange freely with someone else?  why not?

Atually, I apologize, I am not even sure why I even started in with you this morning, you have already come full cirlce with your gun to the back, under duress, free to exchange your labor without paying taxes schtick just as you always do.  No point in continuing the next circle will look the same as the last.

[Baggins]

We just gonna let folks start eating at the diner and leave without paying there too?

I look at it as leaving a tip then...that's totally voluntary, you don't "have" to do it, but most people do without thinking about it...I kind of feel the same way about taxes.

Nice diner analogy...

[ussoccer26]

So as long as it is only a few?  What about a few more?  Then just a few more?  At what point does it get to where you NEED to pay attention?  1%? 3%?  If the "small percentage" is not to be dealt with, then why anyone else?

If there is that many people leaving than maybe we should take a look at why. Clearly the United States would have to be having some issues if there was an exodus.

[jbs49238]

If there is that many people leaving than maybe we should take a look at why. Clearly the United States would have to be having some issues if there was an exodus.

That isn't the point... and you know it.  If you are going to fail to enforce for one you must be willing to do it for all.

It is that whole slippery slope thing.

How many patrons should the diner owner let eat without paying before he takes action?  Should he just start cutting wages to compensate?  Raise prices on those who do pay?

[JL]

the problem is that something is not voluntary just because you call it that.  Do you also think of muggings like tips?   You don't have to give your wallet to the mugger.  Doesn't change the fundamental nature of the activity does it?  What is so magical about taxation? 

do you believe that we have the right to freely exchange with one another? 

it's worth mentioning that you admit "most people do it without thinking about it."  Very true --  people don't like to think. 

I look at it as leaving a tip then...that's totally voluntary, you don't "have" to do it, but most people do without thinking about it...I kind of feel the same way about taxes.

Nice diner analogy...

[jbs49238]

so you don't believe you have the right to exchange freely with someone else?  why not?

Sure I do, and if that person exchanges in accordance with the US government, making my goods or labor open to taxation, then I MUST MAKE THE VOLUNTARY DECISION whether or not to proceed.

The government doesn't wait for you to make your alliances and then spring taxation upon you... you enter into the deal willingly.

[ussoccer26]

the problem is that something is not voluntary just because you call it that.  Do you also think of muggings like tips?   You don't have to give your wallet to the mugger.  Doesn't change the fundamental nature of the activity does it?  What is so magical about taxation? 

do you believe that we have the right to freely exchange with one another? 

it's worth mentioning that you admit "most people do it without thinking about it."  Very true --  people don't like to think. 

If there was a better system than what we have than I would gladly take a look at it.

[jbs49238]

the problem is that something is not voluntary just because you call it that.  Do you also think of muggings like tips?   You don't have to give your wallet to the mugger.  Doesn't change the fundamental nature of the activity does it?  What is so magical about taxation? 

do you believe that we have the right to freely exchange with one another? 

it's worth mentioning that you admit "most people do it without thinking about it."  Very true --  people don't like to think. 

Ah yes... on to the mugger!!!! Won't be long... the rapist is around the corner, just past the group deciding to rob your house.

[JL]

whoa there.  you just contradicted yourself.  you cannot both claim the right to exchange freely and then give a giant exclusion.  that's like saying you have the right to free speech as long as you don't say this list of words and you pay a small fee for every sentence. 

do you or do you not believe that we have the right to exchange freely (without any interference from a 3rd party)? 

Sure I do, and if that person exchanges in accordance with the US government, making my goods or labor open to taxation, then I MUST MAKE THE VOLUNTARY DECISION whether or not to proceed.

The government doesn't wait for you to make your alliances and then spring taxation upon you... you enter into the deal willingly.

[ussoccer26]

That isn't the point... and you know it.  If you are going to fail to enforce for one you must be willing to do it for all.

It is that whole slippery slope thing.

The government fails to enforce things evenly for everyone already. Besides, the government never paid much attention to illegal immigration until it started costing them lots of money. They didn't make an issue of it when only a few people were slipping past our borders.

[JL]

I'm not talking about systems.  I'm talking about an ethical principle. 

If I came to your house and washed your car without your permission then threatened you with a gun when you refused to pay the $100 I demanded, I think you would recognize the immorality of the situation.  Why then can you not recognize it when the people doing the demanding call themselves government? 

If there was a better system than what we have than I would gladly take a look at it.

[jbs49238]

The government fails to enforce things evenly for everyone already. Besides, the government never paid much attention to illegal immigration until it started costing them lots of money. They didn't make an issue of it when only a few people were slipping past our borders.

So that makes it OK then?  Hal and David break the same law, David gets caught Hector does not, and somehow the law is unfair to David?

Seems to be a logic fail in there somewhere ussoccer.

[JL]

are you trying to make an argument, or are you agreeing with me? 

wait a minute.  are you one of the people who, when dragged to the logical conclusion of your claims, had to say that rape was ok in some situations or that there is no truth?

Ah yes... on to the mugger!!!! Won't be long... the rapist is around the corner, just past the group deciding to rob your house.