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[Baggins]

the problem is that something is not voluntary just because you call it that.  Do you also think of muggings like tips?   You don't have to give your wallet to the mugger.  Doesn't change the fundamental nature of the activity does it?  What is so magical about taxation? 

do you believe that we have the right to freely exchange with one another? 

it's worth mentioning that you admit "most people do it without thinking about it."  Very true --  people don't like to think.

The mugger is a criminal and not a member of society but a paracite outside of the system and that comparison is ludicrous...

The magic of taxes is that it funds police, fire dept, public transportation, the roads, schools, libraries, everything that we in this country take for granted...It's not money for nothing in return.  Sure there is a lot of waste in Government, but that's another topic, yet something else that needs to be put in check.

[JL]

Again, this is begging the question.  Or an appeal to authority.  You're claiming that taxation is ok because it is executed by the government which is the predominant "system."  But you fail to explain what justifies the predominant system. 

At what level would you deem the tax rate to be excessive?  If they took 50% of your earnings?  99%?  100%?  What's your tipping point? 

The mugger is a criminal and not a member of society but a paracite outside of the system and that comparison is ludicrous...

The magic of taxes is that it funds police, fire dept, public transportation, the roads, schools, libraries, everything that we in this country take for granted...It's not money for nothing in return.  Sure there is a lot of waste in Government, but that's another topic, yet something else that needs to be put in check.

[Forsythia]

Wow, I've heard this record before.

FYI taxes arent theift because you have several options not to pay them.  You also can leave the country and go to a place that doesnt have taxes. 

JL your idea of Libertopia cannot happen.  We have seen what happens to a society when people exercise their "rights" to discriminate through the veil of freedom of association.  We have also seen what happens when corporations are given free reign to do as they please.  Both make for a pretty ugly picture.  What you are asking for JL is essentially anarchy.  I have pointed out why your system wont work on several occasions.  I have also shown that you feel you are an omnipotent being.  You cant deal with being wrong, therefore everyone else has to be wrong.  You can't accept the fact your beliefs could very well be wrong.  You cannot accept the fact that the only universal truth is that there may, or may not, be a universal truth.  You fail to think outside of the box.  You cannot grasp abstract concepts.  Your bull-headedness does not allow for this, and therefore you cannot have any intelligent conversation with people who disagree with ypu.

[Baggins]

Again, this is begging the question.  Or an appeal to authority.  You're claiming that taxation is ok because it is executed by the government which is the predominant "system."  But you fail to explain what justifies the predominant system. 

At what level would you deem the tax rate to be excessive?  If they took 50% of your earnings?  99%?  100%?  What's your tipping point?

NO, I'm OK with taxes because I know what I get from it...!


The tax rates for 2013 are scheduled to change as follows: the 10% rate will be collapsed into the 15% rate; the 25% rate will become 28%; the 28% rate will become 31%; the 33% rate will become 36%; and the 35% rate wil become 39.6%. These tax rate changes Will take effect beginning in 2013 absent further legislation.

So, the highest tax rate will be almost 40% to those earning an income over $388,350 a year.  I'm far from that, but where is this 50% you talk of?  Even 50% of $388,350 is not a bad living (and people who make that kind of money do not "work" like the rest of us)...You trying to say you couldn't live off of that...

Now if it was 50% for someone making $20,000/yr. That would be excessive, but that's not the case, is it?


My understanding of why I need to pay taxes doesn't over ride my disliking of paying them though, never said I liked it...It's a necessary evil for the piece of mind to know that if there is a fire someone will come and put it out, or if there is a murder someone will take the time to find the killer... Try to imagine life without taxes and all that comes from it, it wouldn't be a very nice place.

[JL]

perhaps you should read a bit more carefully.  I wrote, "what IF they took 50%."  My specific question to you, was at what tax rate would you deem it unjust?  I'm talking specifically about you.  How much would they have to take from you before you felt it was wrong?  50%? 99%? 100%?

I have absolutely no problem with you paying taxes.  I realize that some people feel the government provides great services.  That's fine.  You should be free to give your money to whomever you wish.  I would not try to stop you.  I'm asking why you want to force me to pay them.  Why would you hold a gun to my head to get me to pay for services that I don't want?  Why do you condone such violence? 

NO, I'm OK with taxes because I know what I get from it...!


The tax rates for 2013 are scheduled to change as follows: the 10% rate will be collapsed into the 15% rate; the 25% rate will become 28%; the 28% rate will become 31%; the 33% rate will become 36%; and the 35% rate wil become 39.6%. These tax rate changes Will take effect beginning in 2013 absent further legislation.

So, the highest tax rate will be almost 40% to those earning an income over $388,350 a year.  I'm far from that, but where is this 50% you talk of?  Even 50% of $388,350 is not a bad living (and people who make that kind of money do not "work" like the rest of us)...You trying to say you couldn't live off of that...

Now if it was 50% for someone making $20,000/yr. That would be excessive, but that's not the case, is it?


My understanding of why I need to pay taxes doesn't over ride my disliking of paying them though, never said I liked it...It's a necessary evil for the piece of mind to know that if there is a fire someone will come and put it out, or if there is a murder someone will take the time to find the killer... Try to imagine life without taxes and all that comes from it, it wouldn't be a very nice place.

[Forsythia]

Hey JL no ones forcing you either.  You choose to live here and pay your taxes. 

[Forsythia]

The great thing about JL is that once you make his head explode he ignores you so you can say whatever you want about him.

I heard he was born on the planet Zenu and is really here to try and conquer mankind.  Fortunately for us his race underestimated mankind.  Now he's trapped here because they don't want him back.

[Baggins]

perhaps you should read a bit more carefully.  I wrote, "what IF they took 50%."  My specific question to you, was at what tax rate would you deem it unjust?  I'm talking specifically about you.  How much would they have to take from you before you felt it was wrong?  50%? 99%? 100%?

I have absolutely no problem with you paying taxes.  I realize that some people feel the government provides great services.  That's fine.  You should be free to give your money to whomever you wish.  I would not try to stop you.  I'm asking why you want to force me to pay them.  Why would you hold a gun to my head to get me to pay for services that I don't want?  Why do you condone such violence?

Well, I read your post perfectly AND answered your question...

Now if it was 50% for someone making $20,000/yr. That would be excessive, but that's not the case, is it?

As for holding a gun to your head and advocating violence...    Where and how have "I" personally threatened you...?  You say I'm holding the gun.  Tell me what tax provided service you have a problem with and can live without...

You say you don't use the services provided by taxes, really?  Do you drive a car on city streets?  Ever gone to a public library, use public transportation...?  Would you call the fire dept if your house was on fire?  If your house was broken into wouldn't you make a police report?  Did you go to public school as a kid?


As for "what if" questions...What if aleins landed tomorrow...?   

[Baby Hitler]

I don't think you understand how things work in real life.

Really? You think you have the right to judge others in that respect?

[JL]

I apologize.  I overlooked where you said 50% would be too much. 

Now what makes 49% ok, but 50% not ok? 

If you wouldn't hold a gun to someone's head to get them to pay taxes, why do you advocate that others do it?   I think that's the problem.  I believe you and everyone else involved in this discussion are good people who would never threaten anyone with violence.  It's the abstraction of government that offers a veil of legitimacy.  We all know that done by an individual the act of taxation is immoral, but when done collectively by people with special titles, ethics seems to break down for people.  Then in order to account for the obvious double standard people start making outlandish claims.  And then frustration is taken out on people who point out the contradiction. 

I never said I didn't use services provided by taxes.  that has no bearing on my argument.  If I came to your house and washed your car without your permission and was able to extract the $100 I demanded of you, under duress.  You would have reason for grievance.  Driving your washed car (and thus taking advantage of the service I provided against your will) would not validate the unjust action.  And it would not invalidate your claim against me. 

Well, I read your post perfectly AND answered your question...


As for holding a gun to your head and advocating violence...    Where and how have "I" personally threatened you...?  You say I'm holding the gun.  Tell me what tax provided service you have a problem with and can live without...

You say you don't use the services provided by taxes, really?  Do you drive a car on city streets?  Ever gone to a public library, use public transportation...?  Would you call the fire dept if your house was on fire?  If your house was broken into wouldn't you make a police report?  Did you go to public school as a kid?


As for "what if" questions...What if aleins landed tomorrow...?   

[Baggins]

Now what makes 49% ok, but 50% not ok?

Seriously?  You think that's an argumental point...How old are you, 5...?




I just can't take this seriously anymore...Thanks for the laugh though, I got to go to work so I can pay my taxes...LOL

[JL]

it's a legitimate question.  I understand if you don't want to answer. 

Seriously?  You think that's an argumental point...How old are you, 5...?




I just can't take this seriously anymore...Thanks for the laugh though, I got to go to work so I can pay my taxes...LOL

[jbs49238]

I don't think you understand how things work in real life.  Say I wanted to start selling furniture that I made.  I just want to lease a storefront where I can exchange my furniture for money from other people.  Should I or should I not be able to do this without a 3rd party interfering? 

Ummm  REALLY?!?!?!?  Try me! I have worked in the private sector, and public sector, union and non-union.  I have also worked as an ISO, also owned my own business (storefront style).  I GET HOW THINGS WORK IN REAL LIFE.... TYVM.

So you want to make furniture and sell it in a leased store front... what stops you?

[JL]

My question to you was, should I be able to do that without the threat of interference by a 3rd party?  In other words do I have the right to exchange freely with other consenting adults.  You have said yes, but then you always immediately contradict yourself with exclusions.  Now, I understand why you are struggling with this.  That's why I asked the question -- to make you think about your position.   Most people just don't answer my questions.  So thanks for at least making the effort.  But please try to just answer this honestly and candidly:

Should I be able to exchange freely with other consenting adults?  In other words, do I have the right to trade with other consenting adults without the threat of interference by a 3rd party?

Ummm  REALLY?!?!?!?  Try me! I have worked in the private sector, and public sector, union and non-union.  I have also worked as an ISO, also owned my own business (storefront style).  I GET HOW THINGS WORK IN REAL LIFE.... TYVM.

So you want to make furniture and sell it in a leased store front... what stops you?

[Forsythia]

Ok what third party is interfeering here?  Last time i checked you could sell things directly to people without involving a third party.