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ducksoup

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2012, 11:09:41 PM »

God is real to Less. No one can find God for you, you have to seek him yourself.
well said
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2012, 03:47:01 AM »

God is real to Less.


But the problem is, his God cannot be demonstrated as existing, without doubt. With that no one can take serious the laws of this God's arbitrary whims.

Society must base laws on practical and demonstrable realities, not the commands of invisible authorities.

What's better to base laws on?

1. The arbitrary laws of invisible gods, like Yahweh and Allah.
2. Reason in relation to the question of suffering and human benefits.

I think we all know the superior one of the two.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2012, 06:09:00 AM »


But the problem is, his God cannot be demonstrated as existing, without doubt. With that no one can take serious the laws of this God's arbitrary whims.

Society must base laws on practical and demonstrable realities, not the commands of invisible authorities.

What's better to base laws on?

1. The arbitrary laws of invisible gods, like Yahweh and Allah.
2. Reason in relation to the question of suffering and human benefits.

I think we all know the superior one of the two.
I think each individual is free to decide for themselves.
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LessGovernment

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2012, 09:55:48 AM »

Xerxes(a.k.a. anonymous blogger holding to a stupid minority position that God doesn't exist, and human beings weren't created by a supernatural entity greater than themselves), if you want to use the "lightening rod" social topic of homosexual marriage as yet another an avenue to persuade people to become atheists, or, abandon the Christian faith altogether so they can "enjoy sin for a season"; it appears to me you have demonstrably failed in your attempt.

Placing the male reproductive organ where it clearly doesn't belong for primarily medical reasons(as well as majority opinion/common sense/societal normalcy that has NEVER been turned on its head), and taking that behavior a step further and helping to advance the position that this culture ought to sanction that relationship as a marriage entitled to benefits BECAUSE you choose not to believe God exists is not "logic", not "scientific", but rather childish and most unimpressive enough to warrant a democratic majority to accept such a moronic position.

You have no more proof God doesn't exist, than I have that He does(same goes for evolution - problem still is - your evolution religion is tax supported; and that is what you use to "prove" homosexual behavior is of a natural origin and therefore deserved of cultural approval by force of LAW); you have NOT proven the origin of marriage derived from man, and, you still haven't demonstrated that our great nation is to any degree a failure on the world stage because we do not have "gay marriage" as a domestic policy.

Gay sex is a CHOICE; nobody can stop people from having gay sex; gay sex will most likely not increase upon receiving a marriage sanction by government anymore than it has since it has not been sanctioned.  As far as all your other crap goes:

To sum this up, Less has no argument. His faulty logic was exposed.


All you exposed is that you desire to piss off Christians for a hobby.

He cannot prove his god even exists, let alone why these absurd arbitrary commandments against gays should be taken seriously.


God's commandments and man's laws are two different things.  This argument is will men align their laws with God's laws(presuming God exists), or, will man craft his laws in total opposition to and presumptive commandment of the Creator mentioned in our Declaration of Independence; on the many occasions that the two line up, the Rule of Law works pretty well in free societies - and you cannot prove otherwise.

The results of scientific studies were shown, which Less committed a logical fallacy in relation to, by saying, "The well was poisoned by bias! These studies can't be accurate! Hidden evil agenda within!" Also, as Mike pointed out, there is no suffering to the innocent in gay relationships; therefore, Less cannot point out any good reason to oppose gay relationships. Actually, there is more evidence of beneficial outcomes as opposed to negatives.


Money = INFLUENCE and bias, and yes, there is MORE MONEY flowing out of the Federal Reserve System that flows to the Communist/Socialist/Marxist destructive education and fascist corporatism that advances your childish "throw God's rules off" attitude/position/stupidity than there is ours(but we don't need $$$ - we have the TRUTH!!!)

If two gay people are together for 30 years, and one works his whole life then dies, leaving behind savings, this person's gay partner cannot collect them, because Less says, "The Bible says homosexuality is EVIL! And WE Christians arbitrate the laws according to our religion."


OK - so what; they die and go to hell in their sin - and - when the second partner dies, where does his money go?  Might go to advance the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and you can't stop that; unless you want a LAW to allocate money from gays for the advancement of more gay training and behavior! 

What if the one partner died a horrible, painful, miserable death from a disease associated with homosexual acts?  Should I be lawfully forced to pay for his medical care?  Perhaps during his suffering he realized he was wrong all along, and God's commandments were right all along - he can still be forgiven and go to Heaven when he dies; but the physical consequences don't change, and, nor does the gay community want such conversions reported by the media with ANY government money and sympathy they receive from immoral government...funny how that works.

He just doesn't get it... Oh, well... Maybe he'll threaten us with invisible judgments to come and invisible hell fires, where we'll be tortured with invisible angels. 

Oh, believe me, I get it; I get it to the point that I married a female and pro-created with her - I don't send money to K-Street lobbyists or politicians like gay people do in order to get my way ... I just set the example. 

Your arguments are pathetic, weak, and in hiding - get out from behind you keyboard and change the world PUBLICLY for what you believe in; I have, and still do ... you minority God-hating wimps are all alike.

Creation happened, God is real, His laws are binding upon all mankind, and the evidence is OVERWHELMING to the majority of human beings on this planet - and - when your side burns believers like me at the stake in the public square for NO GOOD CAUSE(remember, Pilate found NO FAULT in Jesus), our side will only gain new believers exponentially.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 09:58:36 AM by LessGovernment »
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Forsythia

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2012, 10:29:40 AM »

Wow why the hate?  Evolution has been proven multiple times over.  As for your opinion that gay marriage supporters are in the minority, you are wrong.  Several studies have shown that a majority of americans support gay marriage.  Gay marriage is also proven to help the economy.  Another fact you're missing is that homosexuality occurs in nature.  Do yourself a favor and do some research before you spout nonsense.
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Ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.  The rest of us have to put up with you idiots.

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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2012, 02:54:53 PM »

Less, it's hard to discuss reality with you if you deny evolution. I'll give you an example as to why evolution is accepted as a reality. I won't copy and paste from web sites, but explain this from my own studies.



Michigan (North America): Cormorant






Galapagos Islands (South America): Flightless Cormorant






The Galapagos Islands, like many Islands, arose from volcanic activity. They date, roughly, five million years old, at the oldest. When volcanic magma cools it creates igneous rock. Within this igneous rock are crystals with radioactive isotopes of potassium-40, which decay at a constant rate into argon-40. When the rocks first cool there isn't any argon-40, only potassium-40; therefore, the rocks are zeroed in. When the rock cools, the timer starts!

When they look at the ratio of potassium-40 and argon-40, in relation to the constant decay rate, they can accurately tell you how old those igneous rocks are. Some creationists say water can affect this, but that's not true, as water would not wash the isotopes out of the inside of crystals.



The cormorants, as you see here in Michigan, fly to South America every year, and then return to North America. A few million years ago, a group of cormorants went off course and found themselves on the Galapagos Islands. It's always warm and there is plenty of food, so they remained on these Islands. They no longer needed to drive, as cormorants are divers, so they swam around the shore lines eating the many fish that swim the shores.

Being they no longer need to fly to survive, natural selection is weeding the wing out. The energy used to preserve the wing is going into their feet, etc., to make them better swimmers. And something interesting is the standard cormorants, being divers, dry their wings in the wind, as seen in the pictures, for it's hard to fly with heavy wings. The flightless cormorant can no longer fly, but they dry their wings in the wind, as if they can fly. It's a *Vestigial Behavior*. What makes sense of this? Evolution.

You find in a few million years, due to genetic drift and natural selection, the difference between the standard and flightless cormorant. If such changes happen within a few million years, what would happen of 50 million years of drifting, 100 million years? Also, if you factor in extinction and the wild branching within drifting, you see speciation through natural selection making perfect sense, and the mathematics work just fine.

What makes more sense, that genetic drift (evolution) did this, or that 4,000 years ago, some god magically teleported the flightless cormorant across the ocean to this Island. He, also, teleported the lemurs to Madagascar to make it look like evolution by genetic drift is true; as he did with the marsupials of Australia?

And there are a TON of living transitions. Beatles that have wings but can't fly. Dew claws on dogs. I could go on and on about vestigial organs, limbs, and behaviors in nature. There is no "missing link," according to biologists, as *Everything* is a transitional form, even you!



Look at a modern chicken or turkey in relation to a feathered dinosaur.


Epidepixteryx (Jurassic):





Turkey (Modern Times):





You will *never* find a modern turkey or chicken where you find these feathered dinosaurs. You know why? They never lived together. Modern birds descended from them.

Notice the epidepixteryx has teeth, like most feathered dinosaurs from that time. Sometimes modern chickens are born with teeth. Why is that? They have a gene for teeth and a simple mutation can reactivate what natural selection switched off. It's a fossil-gene that can mutate and produce an *atavism*. This is another strong evidence of common ancestry.

Notice how most feathered dinosaurs have fingers and claws. Then look at the dissected wing of a modern turkey, they have a finger with a small claw! Why a claw and finger under the wing? The claw is a vestige. They are clearly transitions from earlier forms! Modern birds also have reptilian like scales on their legs, like that of dinosaurs, as feathers, scales, and hair are made from the same gene; and made of ceratin. Also, modern birds and feathered dinosaurs have pneumatic bones. Compare the feet of the two! That's enough examples...



Less, I could go on and on for hours about the evidences for evolution. The evidence is everywhere. Once you comes to terms with this reality, your views on what homosexuality is, etc., may change. And you'll see the world as more natural. But until then you'll continue to try and use the authority of an invisible god and his arbitrary/absurd laws to dictate what rights others have.



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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2012, 05:39:56 PM »

Doesn't evolution prove intelligent design?
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2012, 05:48:11 PM »

Doesn't evolution prove intelligent design?

One has to define intelligence first.

I made a video, using a fake accent  :P, to explain how complex systems in nature do not need a *thoughtful intelligence* to come about.

The intrinsic nature of the Universe/Multi-verse may be likened unto an intelligent process, but current sciences show there may not be a need for "thoughtful design."

Here's the video. Notice the systems arising from Conway's simulation, which mimics randomness in nature, produces complex systems, which appear to be designed and appear to have purpose, but are only the result of simple mathematical laws arising at an inflation/Big Bang.

Universe Without Design
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 05:56:31 PM by Xerxes »
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2012, 06:09:05 PM »

intelligent design means we had a creator. something doesn't come from nothing logically.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2012, 06:35:04 PM »

intelligent design means we had a creator. something doesn't come from nothing logically.


There is no such thing as *nothing*, as some define it. There is *something* that is eternal and gives rise to universes. BUT is this something thoughtful? In the video, I linked, I explained why there may not be a need for a thoughtful designer. This universe and the arguments from bad design we find in evolution/nature, seem to suggest this world is not thought out design.

The second law of thermodynamics says that though energy is constant it spontaneously likes to redistribute itself; it likes to be chaotic. These fluctuations create big bangs out of the vacuum, which is pure energy. And with an inflation you get laws, as the video explains.


We are able to thoughtful calculate because of millions of years of evolution upgrading our brains. So if God is able to calculate where did he gain the complex constitution to think? Did God's constitution evolve into being over time, whereby he could think and design? Or is there a more simple explanation, like the eternal vacuum of energy fluctuates, according to its intrinsic nature, and grows into complexity over time?
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2012, 06:48:34 PM »


There is no such thing as *nothing*, as some define it. There is *something* that is eternal and gives rise to universes. BUT is this something thoughtful? In the video, I linked, I explained why there may not be a need for a thoughtful designer. This universe and the arguments from bad design we find in evolution/nature, seem to suggest this world is not thought out design.

The second law of thermodynamics says that though energy is constant it spontaneously likes to redistribute itself; it likes to be chaotic. These fluctuations create big bangs out of the vacuum, which is pure energy. And with an inflation you get laws, as the video explains.


We are able to thoughtful calculate because of millions of years of evolution upgrading our brains. So if God is able to calculate where did he gain the complex constitution to think? Did God's constitution evolve into being over time, whereby he could think and design? Or is there a more simple explanation, like the eternal vacuum of energy fluctuates, according to its intrinsic nature, and grows into complexity over time?
where did the energy come from?
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2012, 07:00:18 PM »

where did the energy come from?

It didn't. There is something that's eternal and it seems to be energy that fluctuates, grows into complex forms, and breaks down. And so the process goes on ad infinitum.

When we use the "Infinite Regression" logic, it makes more sense that pure simple energy fluctuates, and the simple becomes complex and breaks down over time; as opposed to the idea that some complex god has always had a complex composition wherewith it can think, design, and calculate.

Science uses Occam's Razor, which states, "Go with the most simple and reasonable explanation, and do not employ gods needlessly." It makes more sense, in relation to our testing and observation, that things arise from the simple and become complex, then return to the simple; again, as opposed to the complex coming out of the complex, only to return to the simple from breakdown of the entropic system.

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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2012, 07:33:23 PM »

It didn't. There is something that's eternal and it seems to be energy that fluctuates, grows into complex forms, and breaks down. And so the process goes on ad infinitum.

When we use the "Infinite Regression" logic, it makes more sense that pure simple energy fluctuates, and the simple becomes complex and breaks down over time; as opposed to the idea that some complex god has always had a complex composition wherewith it can think, design, and calculate.

Science uses Occam's Razor, which states, "Go with the most simple and reasonable explanation, and do not employ gods needlessly." It makes more sense, in relation to our testing and observation, that things arise from the simple and become complex, then return to the simple; again, as opposed to the complex coming out of the complex, only to return to the simple from breakdown of the entropic system.


I need more proof the energy is eternal.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2012, 07:49:19 PM »

I need more proof the energy is eternal.

You've never heard of The Law of the Conservation of Energy, which states energy cannot be created or destroyed? Einstein's equations back this.

Quote
The most significant result of this distinction is the fact that one can clearly state the amount of internal energy possessed by a thermodynamic system, but one cannot tell how much energy has flowed into or out of the system as a result of its being heated or cooled, nor as the result of work being performed on or by the system. In simple terms, this means that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another. Entropy is a function of the state of a system which tells of the possibility of conversion of heat into work.

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LessGovernment

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Re: Pastor Calls for Government to Kill Homosexuals
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2012, 08:39:25 PM »

the authority of an invisible god and his arbitrary/absurd laws to dictate what rights others have.???

I don't have a right to life, liberty, property(the fruits of my labor) unless some self-proclaimed God-denying evolutionist grants them to me?

Because I do not believe (describe homosexual sex here) is good, natural, beneficial, normal etc.; I am not intelligent enough to be deserved of any rights?  "Believe this/confrom or I will ridicule you; and if that doesn't work I will get the government to remove you and your thoughts/words/religion/beliefs from society"

Now we know how dictators come to power, don't we - by believing evolution theory; which, is a RELIGION funded by the government ... that's REALITY, your big puffy words do not prove any fossil found in the dirt had any kids, let alone different kids that had so many beneficial mutations over billions of years that a frog turned into a prince.

Questions about homosexual marriage have turned into a creation/evolution debate - you are still losing...
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"Wherefore governments rather depend upon men than men upon governments. Let men be good, and the government cannot be bad; if it be ill, they will cure it. But, if men be bad, let the government be ever so good, they will endeavor to warp and spoil it to their turn." - William Penn
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