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[MonroeMonkey]

Less, I don't know where you got that quote you used, but someone else must have failed in logic. What a loaded statement based in an argument from ignorance.

Do you know what Occam's Razor is? Do you know what the Scientific Method is?

Science does NOT read miracles into the processes or the generation of the Universe. And if they did, which god's miracles would they take into account; Yahweh's, Allah's, etc.?

Science looks at the natural world in relation to natural laws and processes. And guess what? It makes sense WITHOUT miracles! It doesn't make sense if you employ miracles. You couldn't have the world as it is without those natural laws working as they do!

Radiometeric dating is very accurate, so why ignore the mathematics of this for the idea of a miracle 6,000 years ago, or 50,000 years ago, depending on your god?


And just because Science doesn't understand all the natural workings of a process doesn't mean a GOD did it. It's the god of the gaps fallacy. For thousands of years people said miracles were the cause of things, but as we grow in knowledge we find there is a perfect naturalistic explanation, and god gets pushes further and further back.

And just because it doesn't make sense to your lack of knowledge and understanding doesn't mean a GOD did it. It's the argument from personal incredulity fallacy.

Again, what makes sense of the comparative anatomies of modern turkeys and feathered dinosaurs, which you NEVER find together in the fossil record? Evolution. Miracles do NOT make sense of anything in this universe.

Remember, in the video and topic "Universe Without Thoughtful Design" I showed how complex systems, which appear to be designed and driven by purpose arise from simple mathematical laws. It would take a long time knowing all the ins-and-outs of how such systems arise even in this simulation, let alone this vast Universe! So, yeah, we're not going to have this all figured out, yet, but that does not mean the god who called for the murder of babies for the sins of their parents created the world with miracle working powers.

[LessGovernment]

...and yet another another classic slap-God-and-run by Xerxes; anyway, the quote is all over the internet by now - it is attributed to a geneticist who is no creationist whatsoever.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=161
 
Watch the Hovind videos, gang!  Hovind has plenty of enemies out there, and even if you don't appreciate Hovind's confidence; just do as he recommends, "chew on the meat and spit out the bones".  All Hovind's stuff in his powerpoint slides have references, it's good stuff; there is no reason to believe God doesn't exist - Xerxes is the one not living in the real world where predominately moral people exhibit good character in their public and private dealings, and most of their values can be traced to the General Principles of Christianity.

It is those at the top, that have run this country amuck, that fund the stupid evolution religion and do not want a Divine foot in the door, because they are GUILTY and don't want to get caught - so they play these games using the Federal Reserve System of seemingly infinite money supply/credit to brainwash the people that God is a crutch for weak minded people; and that is simply not true - Hovind professes his IQ to be about 160, look at how he presents himself, makes his arguments, answers his critics, and humbly evangelizes to professing Christians that the Bible is the ultimate authority in all matters of faith and practice.

Goodbye for now Xerxes...

[Forsythia]

Well obviously you haven't done your research on the scientific creation of the solar system.  There's a website I used to have book marked but since the only computer I have is at work, I dont feel like getting in trouble by looking it up.

As for your assertstion that the founding fathers were all christians ...you're dead wrong and you know it.  Only about half of them were christians, the rest were either agnostic or transcendentalists.  Shaggy proved that to you in several debates years ago.  Hey Less have you done research on the sources you use to get your information?  You may want to check the validity of those sources before typing misinformation.

[marilyn.monroe]

Well obviously you haven't done your research on the scientific creation of the solar system.  There's a website I used to have book marked but since the only computer I have is at work, I dont feel like getting in trouble by looking it up.

As for your assertstion that the founding fathers were all christians ...you're dead wrong and you know it.  Only about half of them were christians, the rest were either agnostic or transcendentalists.  Shaggy proved that to you in several debates years ago.  Hey Less have you done research on the sources you use to get your information?  You may want to check the validity of those sources before typing misinformation.

I've studied a bit on the founding fathers, and it seems to me most believed in a Creator and natural law. One founding father I find fascinating is Thomas Jefferson. His rewrite of the Bible is curious.

What does anyone think of the emerging evidence for simultaneous adaption (evolution)?

[Forsythia]

They may have believed in a creator, but they were not Christians.  The transcendentalist founding fathers were more nature oriented in their belief system, although claiming no specific god.

[LessGovernment]

Forsythia,

First, I rarely use the word "all"; second, your attempts to label any of the founders as anything-"ists" are totally unsubstantiated since they are not here to defend themselves; thirdly, the General Principles of Christianity are still "winning the day" in our modern culture and your side will never overturn that morality in its volunteer conformity within this American society(you can only hope to weaken it by excusing bad behavior, teaching government funded humanism in government mandated public schools, and ignoring/refusing to punish hypocrisy at the very top and in the professing Christian church); the thread is about homosexual marriage and whether or not it would be good domestic policy.

I will only support the "politician" who doesn't lie, attempt to deceive for personal gain, and; exhibits that the General Principles of Christianity guide his conduct in thought, word and deed in both his public and private life as our founders wisely advised us to.  I am far from defeated, and neither is "our side".

[Forsythia]

Ok, you want proof that homosexual marriage is good for society?  Here we go.  First, it stimulates the economy.  Homosexuals are generally in a better financial position than heterosexual couples.  When they get married they spend more on the entire marriage (ceremony, reception, invitations, etc...) than heterosexual couples.  Homosexual marriage also teaches tolerance of different lifestyles.  This helps in all areas of society, including tolerance of different races and creeds.  It's a civil rights issue.  Were you opposed to African Americans gaining the same rights as white people?  If not, how can you be opposed to people who are homosexual and want the same rights as everyone else?  Another point, you say that anal sex is abhorrent and evil.  That it causes medical problems.  If it's not done properly it does, but vaginal sex can cause problems if it's not done properly either.  Now what about the heterosexual couples that pracice anal sex?  Are those people going to hell?  What about the people who choose not to have children?  Are they going to hell because your god said be fruitful amd multiply, and they don't wish to have children?

Your god talks out of both sides his mouth.  On one hand he says I love you and you should love everyone.  On the other he says if you don't do what I say then you will be sent to a place of torture for eternity.  That seems a bit bipolar to me.

[marilyn.monroe]

Ok, you want proof that homosexual marriage is good for society?  Here we go.  First, it stimulates the economy.  Homosexuals are generally in a better financial position than heterosexual couples.  When they get married they spend more on the entire marriage (ceremony, reception, invitations, etc...) than heterosexual couples.  Homosexual marriage also teaches tolerance of different lifestyles.  This helps in all areas of society, including tolerance of different races and creeds.  It's a civil rights issue.  Were you opposed to African Americans gaining the same rights as white people?  If not, how can you be opposed to people who are homosexual and want the same rights as everyone else?  Another point, you say that anal sex is abhorrent and evil.  That it causes medical problems.  If it's not done properly it does, but vaginal sex can cause problems if it's not done properly either.  Now what about the heterosexual couples that pracice anal sex?  Are those people going to hell?  What about the people who choose not to have children?  Are they going to hell because your god said be fruitful amd multiply, and they don't wish to have children?

Your god talks out of both sides his mouth.  On one hand he says I love you and you should love everyone.  On the other he says if you don't do what I say then you will be sent to a place of torture for eternity.  That seems a bit bipolar to me.

God never told me that and I speak to him daily.
I'm for civil unions and domestic partnerships. Homos didn't break down society, white man did.
I am against enacting laws just because someone profits, although the appeal will win some over.

[Forsythia]

It's a civil rights issue Marilyn.

[marilyn.monroe]

It's a civil rights issue Marilyn.

Human right? Do we really need all those amendments to tell us that? What good is the Constitution then.

[T-M-T]

Do we really need all those amendments to tell us that? What good is the Constitution then.

Funny!!  I think those very same words were used by the National Organization Against Women's Suffrage back in the early 1900's.

[MonroeMonkey]

The Christian pastor calling for the killing of gays, may be following the true historical Jesus. Often you find cults and religions move away from the original teachings of the founders, as in Mormonism, where most no longer support the polygamous views of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

The earliest gospel, Mark, shows Jesus agreeing with the killing of children who do not honor their parents. Mark holds the most weight in light of the historical method, because it's the closest to the time Jesus lived. Some try to quote John 8, where he saves the unfaithful woman from being stoned, but scholars, across the board, agree this was a later addition to the texts. Also, in Matthew and Luke, you find Jesus changing the law, which seems to contradict his words in Mark, but remember, these gospels came later and were written by different men, who may have not been faithful to the Jesus of Mark. Actually, we KNOW they were not faithful to the Jesus of Mark. I can go into more detail if called upon to do so.

Mark 7:8-13

Jesus said ,"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

And he continued, “You set aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is devoted to God, then they no longer have to do anything for their father or mother. Thus you void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

Some of the earliest texts we have also show an angry Jesus in Mark 1:41, where he in anger heals a leper and then casts him out. He seems to be busy and some leper comes in, Jesus being angry heals him, and sends him out immediately! For scholarly back up of this, read pages 133-139 of "Misquoting Jesus: The Story of Who Changed the Bible and Why," Professor Bart D. Ehrman, Professor of New Testament Studies, North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Later, he flips tables and whips people with cords.

We find Jesus always evolving. In Mark he seems like an apocalyptic prophet, by John he was God before the world was. He was never called God in Mark, the earliest, which never mentions a virgin birth. Jesus's family, in Mark 3, comes to take him home, as if a madman. If they knew he was born of a virgin they wouldn't have done that. The virgin birth story comes later. Even Paul's epistles, which predate Matthew and Luke never mention a virgin birth, and Paul states in Acts 13 that Jesus became the Son of God at his resurrection; today I have begotten You!

I could go on and on showing the evolution of Jesus by comparing gospel to gospel. But I think I said enough, for now. Point is, the original historical Jesus may have supported the killing of homosexuals.

[Frenchfry]

"A prominent right-wing pundit has expressed some eyebrow-raising views on the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community once again, saying he wants conservatives to "reclaim discrimination," and even comparing gays to "people who...eat the faces off homeless people." As Right Wing Watch is reporting, Bryan Fischer of the American Family Association sounded off on his "Focal Point" talk show, telling his audience that conservatives should "discriminate...unapologetically" when it comes to homosexuality...".*

Gays Compared To Zombies By Radical Fundamentalist


While many Christian leaders had harsh words after President Obama came out in support of gay marriage, Pastor Frederick Haynes III supported him.
Pastor Supports Gay Marriage Stance From President Obama


"A 14-year-old conservative radio host from West Virginia recently claimed that President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden were "making kids gay" by supporting LGBT rights. During the May 26 broadcast of his program, Caiden Cowger said it was "sickening" to see other kids subscribe to the "belief" that they were gay or lesbian...".

Obama Is 'Making Kids Gay' Says 14-Year-Old Conservative Talk Show Host

[MonroeMonkey]

Cartoon on educating people about homosexuality.


Get Educated About Homosexuality



I did find a major disagreement with this video and Collins stats on twin homosexuality. Collins says %20, this video says %70. Collins %20 is convincing enough that homosexuality is biological, but %70 would be even more compelling evidence; again, %20 is enough.