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[MonroeMonkey]

This post will explain why the universe probably wasn't thoughtfully designed.

Mathematician John Conway, came up with a simulation program, called Life, to mimic the random selection of laws within nature. - When I say “random” I don't mean it as some would think. All seemingly random events are dependent on a prior cause; therefore, nothing is purely random, as some think of random. I use the word “random” here to exclude the idea of thoughtfulness behind and within the processes of nature.

Again, Mathematician John Conway came up with a simulation program, called Life, to mimic the random selection of laws within nature. Within this game pixels, called cells, are used upon graph paper. These cells, or pixels, represent the matter within the universe, and the selected laws determine how matter cells interact with other matter cells.

Before the simulation is started one places random cells on the graph paper, which mimic the random matter produced at the inflation of the big bang; also, one selects random laws, which mimic the random laws selected at the big bang. In this case, we randomly select laws and matter before the simulation starts, but in nature the laws and matter would be been randomly produced in the moment of the big bang. When we start the simulation, it mimics the big bang.



For this example, I'll use the laws, or rules, selected by John Conway, which are:

1. Any live cell with fewer than two live neighbors dies, as if caused by under-population.
2. Any live cell with two or three live neighbors lives on to the next generation.
3. Any live cell with more than three live neighbors dies, as if by overcrowding.
4. Any dead cell with exactly three live neighbors becomes a live cell, as if by reproduction.



These are the laws Conway selected, but there are many combinations of laws that can be selected. In this picture we see Conway's laws represented by 2 and 3 being selected on “Survivals” and 3 being selected on “Births.” Each combination of randomly selected laws will produce different effects upon the play between laws and matter. - Notice at the bottom, it gives the option of selecting random rules, and sometimes Conway's will result from that random selection. Some combinations won't produce any working systems, whereas others, like Conway's, surprisingly produce machinery of fair complexity. - This mimics many big bangs, some of which produce working systems, according to their laws, and many others that cannot.



It just so happens that Conway's four laws can produce complexity. Here's some of the interesting systems which are produced once Conway's big bang is simulated by pressing “Start.”

Gliders



Here are gliders, which are quite common, and able to move across space, until other matter interrupts them.

Glider Breeder



Here's a system which remains stable and breeds gliders.

Pulsar



Here's a pulsar, which reminds me of a sun like system.

Large Breeder



Here's a large system of glider breeders.

These systems seem to be designed by intelligence and driven by purpose, but this play is merely obeying its inherent nature of laws. Someone may say, “But this simulation was intelligently designed.” Yes, but remember, it mimics the random setting of laws and distribution of matter at a big bang. - Someone else may ask, “For this to be random you may need many big bangs.” - Right. And just as there are billions of planets not in the right place for life, many universes may not have laws in the right place to bring about the potentiality for life.

Men have often believed because man can thoughtfully create complex systems, this universe must be a system created by thoughtful intelligence. But ask yourself questions, like, “If I had the ability to create complex systems, would I create billions of planets, which are not able to bear life?” I question if anyone would, and this may hint at there being billions of universes with laws not able to bring about life. This seems to put into question thoughtful design.

One may ask, “How does Darwinian evolution, in all its complexity, arise out of a universe without thoughtful design? Look at the inner workings of the cell, with all its complexity.” The cell is highly complex, from our views of complexity, but let's look at a system which arises out of Conway's simulation. Here you see a system which appears to have purpose and thoughtfully constructed, but it arose from simple random laws, which brought about complexity over time, from the simple to the complex.

Better example in video!



We observe within nature that all things arise from the simple and become complex over time. Our ability to thoughtfully reason came about over billions of years of evolution, from the simple to the complex. The ability to thoughtfully design seems to be a mechanism which arose out of billions of years of evolution. But some say a god thoughtfully designed this universe and has always had the ability to thoughtfully design things. This goes against our knowledge of how reality works. From our observation and testing we find systems arise from the simple and gain in complexity over time, even the complex ability to thoughtfully design.

Which makes more sense, an infinitely complex god that always was, or a simple source which grows into ever increasingly complex forms over time, according to its eternal nature? Something, according to our reasoning, must be eternal, religion says its a causeless complex being, science points to a causeless simple being.

This simple being that science points to would be the vacuum. The vacuum is an eternal sea of roaring energy, which fluctuates according to its nature. From this arises simple particles, called virtual particles; these particles pop into existence for a fraction of a second before they annihilate. They come into being in two parts, +1 positive energy and -1 negative energy, when these two parts come together they annihilate. They pop in and out of existence so quickly they are called virtual particles, as opposed to real particles.

Fluctuations within the vacuum can cause an inflation, which is a big bang. This inflation produces gravitational force, which keeps massive amounts of positive and negative energy apart, which keeps it from completely annihilating. Gravity is what causes the virtual to remain in existence long enough to be considered real. This is why you have something rather than nothing in a Universe that equals zero.

The complexity of the universe is amazing. But just because we don't understand all its workings, at this time, doesn't mean an invisible thoughtful designer is behind it. The more we learn, by science, the more we see there's no need to fill the gaps of our knowledge with a thoughtful designer; and the more we see how everything complex has a most simple origin.

It could be that an intelligent mind extracts from nature, according to its intelligence, and by this sees intelligence within the extraction, thereby tricking itself. Bound by its natural faculties it sees everything as in a mirror, seeing intelligence inwardly and outwardly; seeing thoughtful design even in the thoughtless processes of nature. To such a mind everything is intelligently designed, for our faculties of extraction are intelligent and shape our world within that intelligence; and by that intelligence we measure and quantify everything.


Here's a video I made that has more picture examples. Forgive the fake accent.

Universe Without Design

[LessGovernment]

Religion was created to keep the poor from killing the rich. It is also a symbol of human ignorance.

Stupid "designer" put my retina in the back of my eye, and the octopus's retina in the front of his eye.

Once again, non-believers have proved God doesn't exist.

OK Xerxes; you win!

[MonroeMonkey]

Religion was created to keep the poor from killing the rich. It is also a symbol of human ignorance.
Stupid "designer" put my retina in the back of my eye, and the octopus's retina in the front of his eye.

We find the entire spectrum of eyes and eye sight in nature.

You have species with eyes that are *blind*, as they no longer use them underground. Evolution is the cause. You find eyes that barely see to the eye of the eagle.

Also, some vestiges are harmful to species. Some sin of a primate caused this 6,000 years ago? Doubtful. You expect these absurd vestiges if evolution is a reality.

The recurrent laryngeal nerve comes from the brain and connects to the vocal cords. It only needs to travel a few inches in mammals, but it takes a strange detour. It goes under the heart, in development, and goes back up the vocal cords. You even see this in the GIRAFFE!

Why would a thoughtful designer, who made things in one day, cause a nerve to take a 10 FOOT detour, when it only needs to travel a few inches to work just fine?

You see, the arguments for *Bad Design* are all throughout nature. Evolution, being modifications made on existing models by mutation/natural selection, makes perfect sense of these things, NOT an intelligent thoughtful designer.

[MonroeMonkey]

Now that it's been shown that complex systems can arise, according to the laws of nature, without thoughtful design. Here's a post on the evidences for evolution, from another thread, which show variation in nature without the need of thoughtful design.




Michigan (North America): Cormorant






Galapagos Islands (South America): Flightless Cormorant






The Galapagos Islands, like many Islands, arose from volcanic activity. They date, roughly, five million years old, at the oldest. When volcanic magma cools it creates igneous rock. Within this igneous rock are crystals with radioactive isotopes of potassium-40, which decay at a constant rate into argon-40. When the rocks first cool there isn't any argon-40, only potassium-40; therefore, the rocks are zeroed in. When the rock cools, the timer starts!

When they look at the ratio of potassium-40 and argon-40, in relation to the constant decay rate, they can accurately tell you how old those igneous rocks are. Some creationists say water can affect this, but that's not true, as water would not wash the isotopes out of the inside of crystals.



The cormorants, as you see here in Michigan, fly to South America every year, and then return to North America. A few million years ago, a group of cormorants went off course and found themselves on the Galapagos Islands. It's always warm and there is plenty of food, so they remained on these Islands. They no longer needed to drive, as cormorants are divers, so they swam around the shore lines eating the many fish that swim the shores.

Being they no longer need to fly to survive, natural selection is weeding the wing out. The energy used to preserve the wing is going into their feet, etc., to make them better swimmers. And something interesting is the standard cormorants, being divers, dry their wings in the wind, as seen in the pictures, for it's hard to fly with heavy wings. The flightless cormorant can no longer fly, but they dry their wings in the wind, as if they can fly. It's a *Vestigial Behavior*. What makes sense of this? Evolution.

You find in a few million years, due to genetic drift and natural selection, the difference between the standard and flightless cormorant. If such changes happen within a few million years, what would happen of 50 million years of drifting, 100 million years? Also, if you factor in extinction and the wild branching within drifting, you see speciation through natural selection making perfect sense, and the mathematics work just fine.

What makes more sense, that genetic drift (evolution) did this, or that 4,000 years ago, some god magically teleported the flightless cormorant across the ocean to this Island. He, also, teleported the lemurs to Madagascar to make it look like evolution by genetic drift is true; as he did with the marsupials of Australia?

And there are a TON of living transitions. Beatles that have wings but can't fly. Dew claws on dogs. I could go on and on about vestigial organs, limbs, and behaviors in nature. There is no "missing link," according to biologists, as *Everything* is a transitional form, even you!



Look at a modern chicken or turkey in relation to a feathered dinosaur.


Epidepixteryx (Jurassic):





Turkey (Modern Times):





You will *never* find a modern turkey or chicken where you find these feathered dinosaurs. You know why? They never lived together. Modern birds descended from them.

Notice the epidepixteryx has teeth, like most feathered dinosaurs from that time. Sometimes modern chickens are born with teeth. Why is that? They have a gene for teeth and a simple mutation can reactivate what natural selection switched off. It's a fossil-gene that can mutate and produce an *atavism*. This is another strong evidence of common ancestry.

Notice how most feathered dinosaurs have fingers and claws. Then look at the dissected wing of a modern turkey, they have a finger with a small claw! Why a claw and finger under the wing? The claw is a vestige. They are clearly transitions from earlier forms! Modern birds also have reptilian like scales on their legs, like that of dinosaurs, as feathers, scales, and hair are made from the same gene; and made of ceratin. Also, modern birds and feathered dinosaurs have pneumatic bones. Compare the feet of the two! That's enough examples...

[marilyn.monroe]

In the twentieth century, the definition of energy was broadened. It was found that particles that have rest mass and those that do not, are subject to interconversions of form. Thus, matter in some cases was not conserved. This happens during creation and annihilation of (ponderable) matter particles, and imponderable non-matter particles.
In general relativity conservation of energy-momentum is expressed with the aid of a stress-energy-momentum pseudotensor. The theory of general relativity leaves open the question of whether there is a conservation of energy for the entire universe.
from wikipedia

Xerx, I am open to your ideas of an expanding universe, but again, I think that would prove intelligent design. Can't you see the genius of the invention?

[MonroeMonkey]

Marilyn, as I said in the other thread, I'm talking about the energy of the vacuum, as opposed to the energy distribution in our corner of the woods. From the research I've done you cannot add or take away from a vacuum, which is fluctuating energy that redistributes itself and, in a sense, static pops out a universe. Brain Greene's "Fabric of the Cosmos" explains this. You can watch it on Youtube. He explains how Universes may arise out of the vacuum.

And, no, I don't see it as a genius invention, as much as a marvelous natural growth.

We create thoughtfully when awake, but we also create even greater when asleep and not calculating. We spontaneously become the entire dream-world. We are the people, the trees, the mountains. The dream world comes together instantly within our consciousness and is made of that consciousness. We didn't think to design ourselves into dream worlds, we just become them according to our inherent nature.

So, it may be that the Universe isn't thoughtfully designed, but grows from the eternal source that puts out seeds of universes, according to its intrinsic nature beyond thoughtful calculations. In Christianity God creates the world. In Hinduism God becomes the world. The universe may be thoughtfully designed, but I doubt it. It could also be an organism that grows into planets and people. The atheists say it's a dead mechanism and not an organism. One is free to pick whatever option makes best sense to them.

In my opinion, there is an eternal source that brings forth universes, like seeds, out of its intrinsic nature, beyond thoughtful calculation. It, according to its nature, gives rise and grows into people. It's a wonderful thing and it's completely natural. And you and I are that, so our highest nature is that eternal source that is and becomes myriads forms forever.

[marilyn.monroe]

Marilyn, as I said in the other thread, I'm talking about the energy of the vacuum, as opposed to the energy distribution in our corner of the woods. From the research I've done you cannot add or take away from a vacuum, which is fluctuating energy that redistributes itself and, in a sense, static pops out a universe. Brain Greene's "Fabric of the Cosmos" explains this. You can watch it on Youtube. He explains how Universes may arise out of the vacuum.

And, no, I don't see it as a genius invention, as much as a marvelous natural growth.

We create thoughtfully when awake, but we also create even greater when asleep and not calculating. We spontaneously become the entire dream-world. We are the people, the trees, the mountains. The dream world comes together instantly within our consciousness and is made of that consciousness. We didn't think to design ourselves into dream worlds, we just become them according to our inherent nature.

So, it may be that the Universe isn't thoughtfully designed, but grows from the eternal source that puts out seeds of universes, according to its intrinsic nature beyond thoughtful calculations. In Christianity God creates the world. In Hinduism God becomes the world. The universe may be thoughtfully designed, but I doubt it. It could also be an organism that grows into planets and people. The atheists say it's a dead mechanism and not an organism. One is free to pick whatever option makes best sense to them.

In my opinion, there is an eternal source that brings forth universes, like seeds, out of its intrinsic nature, beyond thoughtful calculation. It, according to its nature, gives rise and grows into people. It's a wonderful thing and it's completely natural. And you and I are that, so our highest nature is that eternal source that is and becomes myriads forms forever.

If you can believe in a universe that has always been and perpetuates itself, how can you rule out a creator? Man was made in the creators image and thus he creates like no other creature.

[MonroeMonkey]

If you can believe in a universe that has always been and perpetuates itself, how can you rule out a creator? Man was made in the creators image and thus he creates like no other creature.

What if there are aliens in the Universe more intelligent than we are and look like a big Praying Mantis? Will they have a mantis god that thoughtfully made them, in their opinion?

People say, "We are made in God's image." But could it be "We made God in our image?"

In my opinion, and from my research, I don't think the Universe was thoughtfully designed. When you see the arguments from bad design, etc., it makes better sense without thoughtfulness.

[marilyn.monroe]

What if there are aliens in the Universe more intelligent than we are and look like a big Praying Mantis? Will they have a mantis god that thoughtfully made them, in their opinion?

People say, "We are made in God's image." But could it be "We made God in our image?"

In my opinion, and from my research, I don't think the Universe was thoughtfully designed. When you see the arguments from bad design, etc., it makes better sense without thoughtfulness.

Theoretically aliens could have created life on earth.

I'm not trying to force my beliefs on you. You demand proof of God, I demand proof of science.

[MonroeMonkey]

Theoretically aliens could have created life on earth.

I'm not trying to force my beliefs on you. You demand proof of God, I demand proof of science.

Science tries to give the best explanation of observable realities and their workings, and they are open to modifying their views in relation to new knowledge.

[LessGovernment]

Dinosaurs did not evolve into birds...you have NO evidence for that, especially from the fossil record.  What is the origin of the word "dinosaur" again? 

To think that beneficial mutations happened that changed the nervous, skeletal, circulatory, and digestive system from an overgrown lizard into a feathered bird is a massive leap of faith; i.e. a religion - you can believe it happened - but that is NOT science, it is religion.

All your "complexities"(symbiotic relationships) and "similarities" are evidence for a DESIGNER ... not mutations over millions of years ... there are NO transitional forms of anything, just fossils with NO PROOF they had any offspring(especially different offspring), artistic drawings and computer generated imagination trying to wow the kids into believing that there is no God, things made themselves from nothing over millions and billions of years.

Birds produce BIRDS, and, today's birds descended from BIRDS ... duh!  Variations within the kinds is NOT evolution, it is the scrambling of the genetc code; and a radius or ulna in any other creature is NOT evidence we have a common ancestor either.

Give it up with the dumb theory already...it is tax supported religion and you've fallen for it...you were created, that is where your CONSCIENCE that bothers you comes from. 

The Bible says God made the Earth, then He made the Sun; evolution has the Sun coming before the Earth - somebody is WRONG; where did all the other elements come from if your theory is correct?

I am certain the placement of the retina in different creatures is VERY THOUGHTFUL design...

[MonroeMonkey]

Dinosaurs did not evolve into birds...you have NO evidence for that, especially from the fossil record.

Are you serious? Have you any clue what of homology is? Did I not explain you DO NOT find modern turkeys and chickens in the Jurassic with the feathered dinosaur? You can find a few relatives of modern birds fairly advanced in late Jurassic, but they are NOT the same as modern birds.

What is the origin of the word "dinosaur" again? 

Equivocation fallacy. The ancient meaning of the word no longer applies the same.

To think that beneficial mutations happened that changed the nervous, skeletal, circulatory, and digestive system from an overgrown lizard into a feathered bird is a massive leap of faith; i.e. a religion - you can believe it happened - but that is NOT science, it is religion.

Apparently, you didn't read my post, to you, with the comparative anatomies, etc... Re-read it.

All your "complexities"(symbiotic relationships) and "similarities" are evidence for a DESIGNER ... not mutations over millions of years ... there are NO transitional forms of anything, just fossils with NO PROOF they had any offspring(especially different offspring), artistic drawings and computer generated imagination trying to wow the kids into believing that there is no God, things made themselves from nothing over millions and billions of years.

Less... Seriously? Why do you say this stuff? Have you ever looked into what fossilization is, how rare it is, etc...? Again, you do not find modern species where you dig up these ancient extinct species, and the comparative anatomies are evidence of common ancestry. DNA alone is enough evidence without the fossil record. But the fossil record testifies an "Amen" to Darwin's theory.

If evolution is true you'd expect to find water to land in the Devonian. What do you find in the Devonian? Exactly that! Tiktaalik, etc... But where are the Tiktaalik's today? Where are the turtles in the Devonian?

If you understood evolution, you'd realize "every" animal is a transitional form; some will not add much to speciation, whereas others will.

Birds produce BIRDS, and, today's birds descended from BIRDS ... duh!  Variations within the kinds is NOT evolution, it is the scrambling of the genetc code; and a radius or ulna in any other creature is NOT evidence we have a common ancestor either.

Less, can you explain to me what genetic drift is and how groups of species migrate and drift apart? Why do you think Lemurs are only on Madagascar? I could go on and on... Look into genetic drift and how mutations and variations accumulate.  The geographical distribution of species and the spectrum of changes across this distribution is another evidence in favor.

If you understood the workings of the cell, you'd realize things MUST change. And over enough time of accumulating changes you get speciation, when you factor in drift.

Give it up with the dumb theory already...it is tax supported religion and you've fallen for it...you were created, that is where your CONSCIENCE that bothers you comes from. 

Saying it's a dumb theory doesn't prove or disprove a damn thing.

The Bible says God made the Earth, then He made the Sun; evolution has the Sun coming before the Earth - somebody is WRONG; where did all the other elements come from if your theory is correct?

Which is complete BS. You cannot have an Earth without a SUN first. Man... you're not educated in Science, or willfully shutting your eyes. When a Sun forms it warps space-time, and planets form in the grooves. That's why they're ROUND. But the Bible says the Earth was made before the sun.

Science doesn't read in miracles from invisible gods. They look at the natural world according to its natural nature. And everything is making sense without employing some miracles. Things do NOT make sense in light of miracles.

I am certain the placement of the retina in different creatures is VERY THOUGHTFUL design...

What about the recurrent laryngeal nerve? The vestigial behavior of the flightless kakapo that injures it? What about the other ill effects of vestiges? Intelligent thoughtful design? Geez... Billions of lifeless planets in places where life cannot happen. How thoughtful. Maybe this thoughtful God loves collecting marbles.

Creationists see something wonderful in nature and say "Thoughtful Design!", while ignoring all the things that would make us think the thoughtful designer was unintelligent.

[MonroeMonkey]

I'll address this point, before Less throws this card. And that's "Living Fossils" there are a good hundred species that haven't changed much over a long period of time.

Natural selection in relation to mutations shapes a species to fit its environment. If the species is surviving just fine, as is, then it won't change much, as natural selection will see to it that it stays fit in relation to the environment. If the coelacanth is surviving just fine, as is, then any mutations that would change it would be weeded out. So, apparently, it has faced little change as it remains fit in a stable environment.

[marilyn.monroe]

I think; therefore, I am.

[marilyn.monroe]

Thoughts...if energy operates on "instinct" or "programming", doesn't that show thoughtful design?