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MonroeMonkey

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Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« on: June 09, 2012, 04:18:14 PM »

More work to be done! Video added today.


Creationism Vs Evolution - Poll



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A recent Gallup poll has some depressing facts about Americans and creationism, evolution, and divine intervention. Does the Bible trump science? Is God behind evolution? How many creationists are in America? Ana Kasparian and Cenk Uygur discuss on The Young Turks.


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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2012, 08:55:51 AM »

Evolution is creationism.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2012, 03:52:38 PM »

Evolution is creationism.

If you think so, then you fall into the range of Theistic Evolutionist, which 32% of Americans are. BUT I think creationism is higher than some may think. Because guided evolution without common ancestry is NOT theistic evolution. I think some who call themselves theistic evolutionists deny common ancestry.

But anyways, evolution is NOT creationism. To say that is to commit an equivocation fallacy on the definitions. Creationism by definition says everything was made in perfect forms 6,000 years ago. Evolution by definition says everything arose from common ancestry over billions of years.
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Frenchfry

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2012, 12:07:12 AM »

I'm a bit surprised that video hasn't been reported to the admin for that one cuss word near the end.

Maybe they only report me.

Just warn folks and it's usually fine.

I hope my post is enough to bring it into compliance and prevent the complaints.
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"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
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Willful ignorance, PaTROLLing, bullying, dishonesty, and hypocrisy are among the traits that are common amongst those that espouse the Republican/Conservative/Tea Party ideology.

A non-response doesn't mean you've won, it merely means the obnoxious, illiterate, right-wing morons have taken too much of my time already.

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 12:13:48 AM »

If you think so, then you fall into the range of Theistic Evolutionist, which 32% of Americans are. BUT I think creationism is higher than some may think. Because guided evolution without common ancestry is NOT theistic evolution. I think some who call themselves theistic evolutionists deny common ancestry.

But anyways, evolution is NOT creationism. To say that is to commit an equivocation fallacy on the definitions. Creationism by definition says everything was made in perfect forms 6,000 years ago. Evolution by definition says everything arose from common ancestry over billions of years.
I'll interpret the Bible for myself, ty.
Out of Africa theory has been disproved.
I think evolution or the ability of life to adapt is evidence of intelligent design.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2012, 03:00:53 AM »

I'll interpret the Bible for myself, ty.

You do that.


Quote
Out of Africa theory has been disproved.


Provide a credible scientific source for that claim.


Quote
I think evolution or the ability of life to adapt is evidence of intelligent design.


Doesn't mean it's true. I've already shown an example of a simulation that mimics randomness and produces systems which appear to be thoughtfully driven.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2012, 07:34:06 AM »

You do that.



Provide a credible scientific source for that claim.



Doesn't mean it's true. I've already shown an example of a simulation that mimics randomness and produces systems which appear to be thoughtfully driven.
How do *you know it is randomly mimicing? I am sure it has a purpose.

Xerx, the fossil record is my source.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 10:00:10 AM by marilyn.monroe »
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LessGovernment

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2012, 09:52:22 AM »

Where's your "credible evidence" for common ancestry?

This is why Hovind is right, and why Hovind pisses so many of you pseudo-intellectuals off - and - consequently why the IRS targeted him and shut him down and confiscated all of his property ... because there is NO PROOF for common ancestry, and, your God-less religion is tax supported in our schools - and it teaches God DIDN'T do it - which is an utter, unprovable, total impossibility to believe that over "long periods of time" something than has never, and cannot ever be OBSERVED, happened.

At least we ADMIT ours is a religious theory - you guys on the other hand keep throwing around the word "fact" when you have none; and when you are EXPOSED as not having facts, you have little temper tantrums and start using the force of government to shut people up - because in your little world - a Supreme Being with a list of moral dictates will simply NEVER be allowed to govern your attitudes, behavior, or conduct; let alone, be an ever present form that government ought to rule in FEAR of.

A radius and ulna in any other animal COULD BE "proof" of a common DESIGNER - it is NOT "case closed proof" of common ancestry, there are OTHER possibilities and other theories that have NOT been ruled out; therefore your evolution is still THEORY, not fact - a.k.a. religion that socialists/communists force down school-children's throats with tax dollars so that they become OBEDIENT to government because there is no God ... that is your sales pitch, your goal, and you cannot PROVE otherwise.

"If there is a God...", Hovind explains the four great questions to LIFE: 

Who am I? Where did I come from? Why am I here? And where am I going when I die?   

...if the evolution theory is true, how would you answer the four great questions of life? he asks in his seminar(not a Federal crime)

Who am I, and what am I worth?

"Well, if evolution is true, you are nothing important.  You are just a piece of protoplasm that washed up on the beach; you are not worth a thing."

"Actually you are part of the problem. You see, because you are one of the polluters of the environment, and the more of you we can get rid of, the better."

"See, that's normal thinking if evolution is true."

Where did I come from?

"Well, if evolution is true, you came from a cosmic burp about 20 billion years ago."

Why am I here? What's the purpose of life?

"Well, if evolution is true, there is no purpose to life, so you might as well have fun. If it feels good, do it."

Where am I going when I die?

Well, if evolution is true, you are going to the grave and you are going to get recycled into a worm, or a plant.

But see, the Bible says: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - and I would add - God instituted marriage, government, and the institution known as the New Testament church...

And if God CREATED; which MOST PEOPLE on the whole planet believe; "that puts a whole different set of answers to those questions."

Only COMMUNISTS and tyrant dictators HATE the idea of a Creator, you are in the minority Xerxes - you have ONLY the force of government, not science, to back up your RELIGION - you LOSE!(not to Hovind - in your ad hominem way; you lose to majority opinion)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 09:56:22 AM by LessGovernment »
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Flanders

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2012, 10:04:03 AM »

If you think so, then you fall into the range of Theistic Evolutionist, which 32% of Americans are. BUT I think creationism is higher than some may think. Because guided evolution without common ancestry is NOT theistic evolution. I think some who call themselves theistic evolutionists deny common ancestry.

But anyways, evolution is NOT creationism. To say that is to commit an equivocation fallacy on the definitions. Creationism by definition says everything was made in perfect forms 6,000 years ago. Evolution by definition says everything arose from common ancestry over billions of years.

So what category would I fall into if I accept evolution, but believe it was started by a higher entity?
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Forsythia

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2012, 10:39:51 AM »

Less, the science is there and it's sound.  There has been an immense amount of evidence to support evolution.  Go here http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/ for all the proof.


Flanders, I'm kind of in the same boat as you.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 10:42:40 AM by Forsythia »
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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2012, 12:38:18 PM »

Where's your "credible evidence" for common ancestry?

This is why Hovind is right, and why Hovind pisses so many of you pseudo-intellectuals off - and - consequently why the IRS targeted him and shut him down and confiscated all of his property ... because there is NO PROOF for common ancestry, and, your God-less religion is tax supported in our schools - and it teaches God DIDN'T do it - which is an utter, unprovable, total impossibility to believe that over "long periods of time" something than has never, and cannot ever be OBSERVED, happened.

At least we ADMIT ours is a religious theory - you guys on the other hand keep throwing around the word "fact" when you have none; and when you are EXPOSED as not having facts, you have little temper tantrums and start using the force of government to shut people up - because in your little world - a Supreme Being with a list of moral dictates will simply NEVER be allowed to govern your attitudes, behavior, or conduct; let alone, be an ever present form that government ought to rule in FEAR of.

A radius and ulna in any other animal COULD BE "proof" of a common DESIGNER - it is NOT "case closed proof" of common ancestry, there are OTHER possibilities and other theories that have NOT been ruled out; therefore your evolution is still THEORY, not fact - a.k.a. religion that socialists/communists force down school-children's throats with tax dollars so that they become OBEDIENT to government because there is no God ... that is your sales pitch, your goal, and you cannot PROVE otherwise.

"If there is a God...", Hovind explains the four great questions to LIFE: 

Who am I? Where did I come from? Why am I here? And where am I going when I die?   

...if the evolution theory is true, how would you answer the four great questions of life? he asks in his seminar(not a Federal crime)

Who am I, and what am I worth?

"Well, if evolution is true, you are nothing important.  You are just a piece of protoplasm that washed up on the beach; you are not worth a thing."

"Actually you are part of the problem. You see, because you are one of the polluters of the environment, and the more of you we can get rid of, the better."

"See, that's normal thinking if evolution is true."

Where did I come from?

"Well, if evolution is true, you came from a cosmic burp about 20 billion years ago."

Why am I here? What's the purpose of life?

"Well, if evolution is true, there is no purpose to life, so you might as well have fun. If it feels good, do it."

Where am I going when I die?

Well, if evolution is true, you are going to the grave and you are going to get recycled into a worm, or a plant.

But see, the Bible says: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - and I would add - God instituted marriage, government, and the institution known as the New Testament church...

And if God CREATED; which MOST PEOPLE on the whole planet believe; "that puts a whole different set of answers to those questions."

Only COMMUNISTS and tyrant dictators HATE the idea of a Creator, you are in the minority Xerxes - you have ONLY the force of government, not science, to back up your RELIGION - you LOSE!(not to Hovind - in your ad hominem way; you lose to majority opinion)


Less I have to ask, have you read Hovind's doctoral dissertation?  If not you can read it here, http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Young-earth_creationist_Kent_Hovind%27s_doctoral_dissertation.  I downloaded it but since I'm at work, I haven't had a chance to read it.  I think I will read it when I get home since it started off so excellent.  Please note that Hovind has a ridiculous amount of fallacies in his paper and the his PhD wasn't issued by an accredited university. 
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Ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.  The rest of us have to put up with you idiots.

"Prayer is nothing more than bargain basement anger." A. LaVey


"A christian telling an atheist he is going to hell is about as scary as a small child telling an adult they won't get any presents from santa." - R. Gervais

MonroeMonkey

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2012, 05:10:53 PM »

Where's your "credible evidence" for common ancestry?



Here ya go.


Atavisms:

An atavism is produced by a mutation in a fossil-gene, which reactivates a feature that was deactivated through past mutations.




Back legs on a dolphin, which have bone structures of mammalian legs. Produced by a fossil-gene.

Teeth in a modern chicken. Produced by a fossil-gene.

Common ancestry makes sense of this, creationism doesn't.



Another atavism activated upon a mutation in a fossil-gene.



Back legs on a snake. Again, another atavism produced by a mutation in a fossil-gene, which reactivates something that was deactivated through past mutations.


Vestiges:





Vestigial bones of past legs on a whale. Left overs like this are common ALL throughout nature. I could give many more examples.



Vestigial hind leg of a python.



Small useless wings. They are a vestige. Many insects have wings they cannot use. What makes sense of this, creationism or evolution?



Again, those nice flightless wings of the cormorant that I explained in a past post.


Fossils:






Feathered dinosaurs. Remember, you will NEVER find a modern turkey or chicken where you find these in the fossil record (Jurassic). Look at the anatomy of the modern turkey, below.

Notice the epidepixteryx and archaeopteryx have teeth, like most feathered dinosaurs from that time. Sometimes modern chickens are born with teeth. Why is that? They have a gene for teeth and a simple mutation can reactivate what natural selection switched off. It's a fossil-gene that can mutate and produce an *atavism*. This is another strong evidence of common ancestry.

Notice how most feathered dinosaurs have fingers and claws. Then look at the dissected wing of a modern turkey, they have a finger with a small claw! Why a claw and finger under the wing? The claw is a vestige. They are clearly transitions from earlier forms! Modern birds also have reptilian like scales on their legs, like that of dinosaurs, as feathers, scales, and hair are made from the same gene; and made of ceratin. Also, modern birds and feathered dinosaurs have pneumatic bones. Compare the feet of the two!





Scientists predicted that if evolution is true you should find the water to land transition in the Devonian. What did they find? Exactly that! Tiktaalik above. A clear transition from water to land. You DO NOT find modern frogs, etc., in the Devonian.



Oldest fossil is on the right, next the middle, next is the most recent. Look at the gradual shift of the blowhole on whales and their ancestors. Clearly transitions. And the you DO NOT find the older ones alive anymore, nor do you find the modern whale fossilized with them in the record.


Geographical Distribution of Species & Genetic Drift:

Cormorant of Michigan:



Galapagos Flightless Cormorant:




Remember these? Let me restate myself, being some missed it...

The Galapagos Islands, like many Islands, arose from volcanic activity. They date, roughly, five million years old, at the oldest. When volcanic magma cools it creates igneous rock. Within this igneous rock are crystals with radioactive isotopes of potassium-40, which decay at a constant rate into argon-40. When the rocks first cool there isn't any argon-40, only potassium-40; therefore, the rocks are zeroed in. When the rock cools, the timer starts!

When they look at the ratio of potassium-40 and argon-40, in relation to the constant decay rate, they can accurately tell you how old those igneous rocks are. Some creationists say water can affect this, but that's not true, as water would not wash the isotopes out of the inside of crystals.



The cormorants, as you see here in Michigan, fly to South America every year, and then return to North America. A few million years ago, a group of cormorants went off course and found themselves on the Galapagos Islands. It's always warm and there is plenty of food, so they remained on these Islands. They no longer needed to drive, as cormorants are divers, so they swam around the shore lines eating the many fish that swim the shores.

Being they no longer need to fly to survive, natural selection is weeding the wing out. The energy used to preserve the wing is going into their feet, etc., to make them better swimmers. And something interesting is the standard cormorants, being divers, dry their wings in the wind, as seen in the pictures, for it's hard to fly with heavy wings. The flightless cormorant can no longer fly, but they dry their wings in the wind, as if they can fly. It's a *Vestigial Behavior*. What makes sense of this? Evolution.

You find in a few million years, due to genetic drift and natural selection, the difference between the standard and flightless cormorant. If such changes happen within a few million years, what would happen of 50 million years of drifting, 100 million years? Also, if you factor in extinction and the wild branching within drifting, you see speciation through natural selection making perfect sense, and the mathematics work just fine.






Lemurs. Only found on Madagascar. What makes more sense, that genetic drift (evolution) did this, or that 4,000 years ago, some god magically teleported the flightless cormorant across the ocean to this Island. He, also, teleported the lemurs to Madagascar to make it look like evolution by genetic drift is true; as he did with the marsupials of Australia?



Difference between tortoises on the Galapagos, drifting apart from island to island.



Notice the geographical distribution of these. These little guys can breed with each other county to county, but the northern most one (oregonesis) cannot breed with the most southern one (klauberi). Again, county to county they can breed up the spectrum, but the most southern and northern cannot. This shows speciation over the spectrum.


Endogenous Retroviruses:





ERV's invade the host cell and merge in the DNA of the host, thereby tricking the host into replicating the RNA information of the virus. These viruses leave a mark in the genome. We have, roughly, 22,000 genes. These can attack anywhere in the 22,000!

So, what if you compare the human and chimpanzee genome and find 1 identical placement side by side with the chimp's? Maybe it's a huge coincidence. But what about 2? That's like winning the lottery. But what about 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, etc., etc... It becomes IMPOSSIBLE without COMMON ANCESTRY.




I haven't even went into DNA yet, which is one of the strongest evidences. I haven't went into Lenski's work. Or the arguments from bad design, such as the recurrent laryngeal nerve. I could go on and on and on with evidences throughout nature.

As the biologist Dobzhansky said, "Nothing in all biology makes sense expect in the light of evolution." The world as we know it only makes sense in the light of evolution, NOT creationism. In relation to the real world the miracles of creationism just don't work.


But hey, some people still believe we walked with these 6,000 years ago. Lol...

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LessGovernment

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2012, 06:53:36 PM »

Forsyth; I keep it simple - I don't "follow" Hovind per se, to the degree I investigate his every word ad naseum so I can find a flaw to discredit everything he ever said...that's what evolutionists waste their time doing.

His simple philosophical points and probing questions to Christians to TRUST the Genesis account(and the Psalms) that present the creationist/God's eyewitness side are more than enough - because- BOTH theories are religious...

See, I could dismiss every word/argument Xerxes has ever typed on this forum because he just published: "Vestigial bones of past legs on a whale." - now, not being any sort of student of biology myself(let alone inclined to waste hours on end to PROVE God made the whale, which I cannot do - I just BELIEVE He did); I have seen Hovind present the very realistic proposal that the whale still uses these claimed "vestigal structures" in whale reproduction today - so - the far-fetched idea that Xerxes (BELIEVES) these were once legs and whales used to walk upright on the Earth; and, eventually going even further back the whale used to be a pine cone or a banana is just stupid and even more unrealistic than the Bible's assertion that God made the fish on day 5 of His creation...

So again, I think the philosphical agenda of the evolutionists is a MAJOR problem - to use tax dollars to propagandize our American school-children with the idea that the beautiful, intricate, inter-dependent, symbiotic creation they see all about them EVERYDAY got here by random chance(as well as human eyesight) is pure EVIL.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 06:56:51 PM by LessGovernment »
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2012, 07:06:55 PM »

Natural things are made of the same stuff, just rearranged differently.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Creationism Vs. Evolution - New Poll
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2012, 07:08:29 PM »

I like my science like my law, simple. If I can't read it and understand it while I'm running, it is no use to me lol.
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