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[livewire]

Here's your answer Live

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    Humans and other apes are descended from a common ancestor whose population split to become two (and more) lineages. The question is rather like asking, "If many Americans and Australians are descended from Europeans, why are there still Europeans around?" Creationists themselves recognize the invalidity of this claim (AIG n.d.).

Here's more on genetic drift.  I'm at work or I would quote specifics directly.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/genetic-drift.html

Huh? ? ?   

"Humans and other apes"?? 

We are NOT apes.

Last time I checked, Americans, Australians and Europeans are all part of the human race.  We are all the same species.  Americans didn't evolve into another species when we left Europe, and we never will.

Unlike apes, which is another species, all Americans, Australians and Europeans can reason.

Well, with the exception of some Europeans these days.... they're a lot like Democrats, ya know.

[Monique]

It's not only humans that reason. Many higher mammals (and even a bird or two) are proven to do so. Perhaps not as well as modern humans, but even a dog has been shown to understand the process of elimination (see Nova Science Now). Several animal species have learned to use human language or ASL to communicate with us. Dolphins and elephants are fairly brilliant and can certainly reason their way through puzzles, exhibit excellent memory capacity, and appear to grieve when they lose a companion. Many types of animals reason; that cannot be used as a factor, IMO.

As I mentioned in another post, early humans very likely learned to speak in order to better form group hunting strategies. Just as other animals formed their own particular specialization for acquiring food and maintaining survival over millennia, humans specialized in precise vocalization and communication. We are just one of many specialized creatures that exist or have existed on this planet.

Finally, there are untold numbers of creatures that did exist but no longer exist, that are related to modern creatures. Again, the extinction of an ancestor cannot be used to conclude that humans did NOT descend from it, nor that multiple species MUST have sprung from it.

Aughhh.... This conversation has no end, but I'm compelled to submit my two cents.

[MonroeMonkey]

Livewire, ah, ok. I thought you were joking.


What gets most people is they haven't researched fossilization and genetic drift, etc. Over 99% of animals that die do not fossilize.

This is a good analogy at what the fossil record is like. Say a baby is born, and the parents take a picture of the baby everyday of its life until it's 60. If you compare pictures day to day, you don't see much difference. But if you compare a picture from 5 years old, and one from 30 years old, you can see how this being changed over time.

Now! Take all the pictures, bundle them together and throw them in a fire. Let them burn for a good 30 seconds, then put the fire out. Sort through the picture fragments. Out of the 20,000, or so, pictures you'll find a quarter of a picture of when the person was 5. A half of a picture of when they were 27. A whole picture of when they were 11. A 10th of when they were 43, etc., etc.

That's what the fossil record is like. There were BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of past forms, but very very  few fossilized. So, we have a fragmented history to sort through. There were plenty of humanoid like species, like Neanderthals, that died out. We happen to be the one, in the group of the family, that made it successfully.

And something to remember, is when they find past humanoid fossils the brain stem holes are in different places, showing a slow evolution, etc. You never find modern human structures among those ancestors of ours, they have different anatomies to a degree. Also, you never find modern turkeys and chickens with feathered dinosaurs. You never find humans fossils or dogs in the Permian, etc.

Once one has a firm understanding of natural selection, mutations, genetic drift, gene flow, etc., it all comes together in perfect sense. And I already pointed out the evidence of ERV's in our genome compared to Chimpanzees, which only makes sense in light of common ancestry. I can provide myriad evidences in our DNA for common ancestry, if you like.


*Edited to add:

If one looks in the mirror then looks at their child, that's the rate in which evolution takes place. No child is ever exact to its parents, due to mutations in germ cells. These small accumulating changes over millions of years drive a species to slowly appear different over time. DNA stores changes; therefore, most changes are permanent, and things must be driven to ever change.

[MonroeMonkey]

This is a rebuttal of LessGov's claim that "Whales have been found fossilized in polystrate position."


On talk origins this is known as "A Whale of a Tale!" lol...

The original claim was that in 1976 a fossil of a whale was discovered in California that was in polystrate position.

Here's the rebuttal:

Had anybody taken the time and trouble to check the facts, they would have found that the story by Russel (1976) took some liberty with the facts and lacked very important information. First, the skeleton was not found in a vertical position, but was lying at an angle 50 to 40 degrees from horizontal. Finally, although at this angle, the whale skeleton lay parallel to the bedding of strata which at one time was the sea floor on which the dead whale fell after its death. These facts were confirmed by inquiring with the people at the Los Angeles Museum of Natural History who excavated the whale. Although nothing had been published on the whale, Russel (1976) clearly identified the staff who excavated the skeleton and they could have been easily called at the Los Angeles Museum of Natural History in Los Angeles, California.

The strata containing the whale consists of diatomites that accumulated within deep bays and basins that lay along the Pacific coastline during Miocene times. As a result of folding and tectonics associated with the formation of the Transverse Ranges, the strata containing the enclosed skeleton has been tilted into a less-than vertical position. These sediments lack any sedimentary structures that would indicate catastrophic deposition. Rather, the strata exhibit laminations indicative of slow accumulation on an anoxic bay bottom. Within the adjacent strata, several hardgrounds occurs. A hardground is a distinctive cemented layer of sedimentary rock that forms when the lack of sediments being deposited over a very long period of time on the sea bottom allows the surface sediments to become cemented (Isaac 1981, Garrison and Foellmi 1988). In fact, identical sediments are currently accumulating without the involvement of a Noachian-like flood within parts of the Gulf of California (Curray et al. 1992; Schrader et al. 1982).

Furthermore, a partially buried, articulated whale skeleton slowly being covered by sedimentation in the deep ocean off the coast of California was observed by oceanographers diving in submersibles. It is an excellent modern analogue of how this particular whale fossil was created without the need of a Noachian Flood (Allison et al. 1990; Smith et al. 1989).

The geology of these quarries is documented by publications of the California Division of Mines and Geology (Dibblee 1950, 1982) United States Geological Survey geological maps (Dibblee, 1988a, 1988b), graduate students at University of California, Los Angeles (Grivetti 1982), and field trip guidebooks (Isaacs 1981). The other whale skeletons which have been found in these quarries lie parallel to the bedding and owe their modern attitude to tectonics rather then some mythical catastrophe. The written documentation for the attitude of the whale skeletons is contained within field notes and locality records of the Los Angeles Museum of Natural History in Los Angeles, California.

For further reading check this out on talkorigins, which provides around 25 sources.




As if typical, creationists take one faulty case and try to use it to disprove evolution, which has thousands of evidences to back it. They create these so-called problems and exploit the hell out of it, but when researched it has so easily been debunked as utter nonsense by qualified scientists.

[LessGovernment]

Faulty aggressive slam #1 LessGov's claim - not MINE!

Pathetic rebuttal #1 - answering my cut and paste with a WRONG cut and paste reference from your favorite creation-bashing website TalkOrigins.

For the Record: The discovery I originally referenced was NOT "The original claim was that in 1976 a fossil of a whale was discovered in California that was in polystrate position. "; but rather "a discovery announced in Geology in 2004 of 346 whale fossils buried in diatomaceous earth (see 2/02/2004).  That discovery was published by creation geologists who believe a global flood was responsible for their burial…."

Kinda hard for you to pay attention when I have poisoned the well with SO MUCH evidence that could be attributed to a WORLDWIDE DELUGE that occurred about 4400 years ago; and all you have is your precious ad hominem attacks on Hovind because the IRS went after him and he didn't attend a University where his direct rebuttal and refusal to swallow the LIE of government-funded propaganda called evolution theory would have interfered with his completion of their degree.

First of all: 14°52'11.34"S, 74°50'06.18"W is NOT in California ...

Second of all: it was not "a fossil of a whale" - it was rather "346 well-preserved whales (mostly baleen whales) plus a menagerie of other creatures—sharks, turtles, seals, porpoises, ground sloths, and penguins—all fossilized at various depths beneath an elongated strip 370 acres in area and 3,800 feet above sea level." - "buried primarily in nonlayered diatomaceous earth"

Creationists call discoveries like these "Evidence of [a] compression event"...ya know...evidence of "rapid burial" which is HOW fossilization occurs...or, has that been disproven? 

Do you have evidence that the petrified trees found in the vertical position through multiple rock layers, or, any dinosaur finds originally occurred through "a slow burial"?

Petrified trees through many layers!

Are "Diatoms ... microscopic organisms living near the surface of open water—oceans or lakes."?

Does "(A teaspoon of diatoms contain hundreds of millions of individual skeletons.)"?

"When diatoms die, [do] their silica skeletons slowly sink."?

"In deep water, [does] the silica often dissolves before reaching the sea floor."?

Is it plausible that "Today, in shallow seas, a mushy layer of diatoms can accumulate at rates of up to 0.1 inch per year."?

Does a discovery of "346 well-preserved whales (mostly baleen whales) plus a menagerie of other creatures—sharks, turtles, seals, porpoises, ground sloths, and penguins—all fossilized ... buried primarily in nonlayered diatomaceous earth" favor evolution theory and millions of years, or, rapid burial in a flood?

I've made up my mind - goodbye Xerses and Monroetalks - see you all in a few perhaps...

[everyone has my express permission to believe whatever they want about the origin of life, and heap to themselves research, articles, writings, teachers, and theological instruction that is consistent with their PERSONAL worldview - as well as - my BLESSING should they choose to IGNORE people who have nothing better to do with their time than tear down and ridicule their INDIVIDUAL belief system]

"to belittle...is to BE LITTLE"

[Forsythia]

Sooo...you're taking your ball and going home?

[MonroeMonkey]

I've made up my mind - goodbye Xerses and Monroetalks - see you all in a few perhaps...

That's too bad. I was just about to expose the nonsense of your last post.

[superhero voice] Maybe next time, you Dastardly Villain! [\superhero voice]

[marilyn.monroe]

Scientists are creating synthetic life. Recently they mixed rat hearts with plastic and shocked a "jellyfish" into animation. Does this prove intelligent design?

http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/07/synthetic-jellyfish-a-hybrid-of-rat-hearts-and-plastic/

[MonroeMonkey]

Does this prove intelligent design?

As much as the recurrent laryngeal nerve does.

[LessGovernment]

c'mon ... everyone is WAITING ...

I mean, you cited the wrong whale refutation from TalkOrigins immediately, as though you THOUGHT you nailed us in the creation camp; you said you have what it takes to "expose the nonsense" at hand ... do I really have to ask?

Does a discovery of "346 well-preserved whales (mostly baleen whales) plus a menagerie of other creatures—sharks, turtles, seals, porpoises, ground sloths, and penguins—all fossilized ... buried primarily in nonlayered diatomaceous earth" favor evolution theory and millions of years, or, rapid burial in a flood?

[Baggins]

Evolution is creationism.

A rose by any other name...I find it hard to understand why so many people have a problem with this.

No one in the scientific field has ever said evolution is not the work of God.

Evolution is the name of the process of change over extremely long periods of time, not an explanation of why or even how...!  Though the why should be some what easy to understand, things need to change to their environment or die...

[MonroeMonkey]

c'mon ... everyone is WAITING ...

I mean, you cited the wrong whale refutation from TalkOrigins immediately, as though you THOUGHT you nailed us in the creation camp; you said you have what it takes to "expose the nonsense" at hand ... do I really have to ask?

Does a discovery of "346 well-preserved whales (mostly baleen whales) plus a menagerie of other creatures—sharks, turtles, seals, porpoises, ground sloths, and penguins—all fossilized ... buried primarily in nonlayered diatomaceous earth" favor evolution theory and millions of years, or, rapid burial in a flood?

This is a complete argument from ignorance.

As was said, "The other whale skeletons which have been found in these quarries lie parallel to the bedding and owe their modern attitude to tectonics rather then some mythical catastrophe."

Sometimes they even find the distribution of fossils in strata upside down compared to the norm. Tectonics, etc., can cause large portions of strata to be reversed or turned vertically. Or, you'll get areas of common flooding and mudslides, which can produce such layers every few generations. Paleontologists compare fossils and various dating methods are used, also, one takes things in the CONTEXT of where they were found. Is that an area where tectonics could reverse or cause vertical layers? Or, was this particular place by a water bed site, where common flooding and mudslides took place? Of course.

Come back with something less refutable.

[LessGovernment]

Baggins:  There is a question that "if evolution is true", is that consistent with the nature of the God of the Bible with reference to HOW the Bible says He did it - in six literal 24-hour days, "and [He said] it was good"(actually, it was PERFECT).

Does God need millions of years, untold sufferings, death and mutations in a grand scheme to get the world to a point that a species of "animals" would come along and worship Him...that doesn't make sense to most people who believe in God.

See, I butt heads with Xerxes because he mocks the 6-day creation account, and the flood - and he claims - he was a former believer.  I, of course, am of the mind that the God of the Bible has revealed Himself to His creation  - and due to Adam's initial act of clear disobedience, sin entered the world; it got so bad God judged His entire creation in the flood of Noah's day, and the sin curse is still with us today.

(now Xerxes, don't get distracted here - I still want the evolution explanation for the whales in diatomaceuos Earth - the petrified trees standing up(even the upside down ones) through multiple rock layers - and them giant stone formations I linked to in some previous thread without the use of the word "probably"; since I too can say God "probably" created the world and flooded it and "probagbly" sent His Son, and He "probably" resurrected from the dead, and people "probably" go to Heaven when they die of Christ's blood pays their sin debt.)

Baggins, it is a question worth asking those who say they believe God exists... did the God of the Bible use the evolution theory of 406 Billion years ago there was a cosmic burp, then it rained on the rocks for millions of years and life evolved from non living material, became apes, then humans?...as our PUBLIC SCHOOLS and universities teach with TAX DOLLARS(which favors the God didn't do it - it's all "natural" in a God-less world).

[LessGovernment]

oops - Xerxes and I were on here at the same time - and a quick peek prompts me to say what a LOSER answer Xerxes ... TOTALLY DOA ... no PROOF for evolution and PROOF the worldwide flood did NOT happen at all in your LAZY, cut and paste, BIASED dribble ... 

REFUTE how the burial happened ... REFUTE substantively, and with 100% total PROOF that it is 1000% IMPOSSIBLE for it to have happened in the FLOOD of Noah's day 4400 years ago ... go ahead .... we'll wait

[MonroeMonkey]

Does God need millions of years, untold sufferings, death and mutations in a grand scheme to get the world to a point that a species of "animals" would come along and worship Him...that doesn't make sense to most people who believe in God.

At least you realize evolution DOES conflict with religious belief, as some wish to think it doesn't. It highly conflicts with the Christian view of original sin and salvation.

(now Xerxes, don't get distracted here - I still want the evolution explanation for the whales in diatomaceuos Earth - the petrified trees standing up(even the upside down ones) through multiple rock layers - and them giant stone formations I linked to in some previous thread without the use of the word "probably"; since I too can say God "probably" created the world and flooded it and "probagbly" sent His Son, and He "probably" resurrected from the dead, and people "probably" go to Heaven when they die of Christ's blood pays their sin debt.)

I addressed your argument above.

...it is a question worth asking those who say they believe God exists... did the God of the Bible use the evolution theory of 406 Billion years ago there was a cosmic burp, then it rained on the rocks for millions of years and life evolved from non living material, became apes, then humans?...as our PUBLIC SCHOOLS and universities teach with TAX DOLLARS(which favors the God didn't do it - it's all "natural" in a God-less world).

What an argument from ignorance. No scientist says it was a mere cosmic burp and merely raining on rocks.

Less, you'd agree, as we have proven, that you can fuse together hydrogen and make helium? Suns are massively hot and such heat causes atoms to become more like plasma and they fuse together making the higher elements. So, there an evolution of elements.

After that you get atoms that begin to share electrons, you know what those are called? Molecules. So, there's an evolution of molecules. Did you know molecules can interact with each others, according to the laws of nature, and form into amino acids. There there is an evolution of molecules and chemicals, etc., etc., etc., until you get the evolution of higher and higher forms.

It's a VERY complex play and evolution driven by the energy of the inflation and laws of psychics. It's not just some magical process. The Christians and Muslims believe in a magical creation that was just POOFED into existence, not Science.