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Flanders

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Deism
« on: June 14, 2012, 11:52:27 AM »

Thanks to Xerces who pointed out what "category" I would fall into, I can now relate very closely with Deism.

I do believe in God.  I believe He breathed life into the universe and set forth a series of events that can only be described as miraculous.  I believe these events do include evolution, and that to know God can be as simple as observing the majesty and wonder of nature itself.  I belive God gave us the gift of morality and choice.  Since God created man and nature, I believe it is His will for us to preserve and nourish nature and to act just, to show love and compassion towards our fellow man.

I was raised Christian, but had trouble with a few things. 

I do not believe in the power of prayer or miracles.  I cannot believe that when I see an accident involving multiple fatalities, that "God was with" the survivors and not the others.  Nor do I believe that in God's ultimate plan, would any sort of request made through prayer change the big guy's mind.  That being said, I do find value in prayer, only in the form of "thanks" rather than "please".

I do believe in the afterlife where we will meet God and others who have passed before us.  I do believe that there will be some sort of judgement based on our life here on Earth.

Awesome.
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T-M-T

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Re: Deism
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2012, 01:22:56 PM »

I’m totally with you.  I’ve described myself as a deist for quite awhile.  I feel that logically, some” force” created the Earth and the Universe.  It is also quite evident to any logical person that this “force” has nothing to do with the made-up nonsense in the bible.

While prayer might help a few people now and then by keeping them positive, for the most part it is a very futile waste of time and gives false hope to so many people.  Neveah is a perfect example.  People prayed for her safe return.  Some people actually went on to thank God that here dead body was found.  If the killer is caught, some will give God credit for that despite the fact that the idea is complete nonsense.  Fact is, no one outside of this Earth played any kind of role in that whole horrible story.

People pray for the sick and even give God credit when people get better.  He’s credited with curing cancer and all sorts of other diseases that modern medicine and science can cure, but curiously only certain people are cured.  I guess God only really hates amputees, since he has never responded to their prayers for new limbs.

And my all-time favorite are sports stars thanking God for victories.  Just once, I’d like to hear someone in the losing locker room say, “We were doing great until Jesus made me fumble.”
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Flanders

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Re: Deism
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 01:54:27 PM »

Yes exactly.

But I wouldn't dismiss the Bible as complete nonsense.  If you do not take a literal interpreation, I do believe there are good bits of life lessons and advice within.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Deism
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 04:10:23 PM »

I find many of the same problems with deism as I do with your typical theism.

It's an anthropomorphization of man. It's a creating of God, as creator, in our own image.


We have the ability to discriminate, measure, calculate, and design because of our brain, which arose through evolution in our environment. We developed these faculties to survive. Reasonably, we know this complex system of calculating and measuring arose over billions of years of evolution, from simple to complex. If God has the ability to discriminate and calculate, where did God gain the composition to do so? Did God evolve? Is God an atheist?

Taoism and other Easterners see God/Tao differently. When you sleep you withdraw from the senses into a state beyond measurements. There's no up or down, left or right, no space or time, within your being; only an intrinsic nature. When you begin to dream the substance of mind arranges itself into forms, people, trees, mountains, animals, etc. You didn't design these dream worlds by calculated reason, but your intrinsic nature began, spontaneously, to self-arrange into worlds. Instead of designing by a calculation, you gave rise according to your nature. This is also an anthropomorphization of a different kind, but it answers the infinite regression better, as this intrinsic source could be simple, beyond calculation.


It seems there's something everlasting that gives rise to worlds. I think it's something fairly simple, and within this simplicity is the intrinsic nature to grow into complexity. Spinoza, Aristotle, Buddha, etc., believed the source to be pure being substance, which is beyond the calculating mind of man. It's like a man who withdraws from his senses and finds the bliss of union with pure being, beyond thought and beyond calculation. Yet, from this vibrating pure being arises forms innumerable. The Hindu's call it "Aum/OM." Spinoza and Aristotle call this the "expression" of God's nature, whose vibrations of pure being become the worlds. And, interestingly, String Theory, is now pointing to a Universe of pure vibrations!

I, personally, hold to the idea of there being one substance of pure Being. By its intrinsic nature it grows. The Hindu's call God Brahman, which means the growing or expanding one. This nature grows from simple to complex, becoming galaxies, suns, solar systems, planets, and people. When this being becomes a man, it loses sight of its unified and undivided nature. Identified with form objects and the senses of sight, smell, taste, touch, and discriminating thought it is lost within a world of seeming individuality and death. If the man will dis-identify with form objects, and withdraw from the senses, he enters into a state beyond thought of pure bliss being; in this samadhi he realizes his true everlasting and unified substance.

He realizes Satcitananada Brahman - Pure bliss being of the undivided nature. He knows with the "I" of the body passes away, the "I" of all remains everlasting, giving rise to this vast play of elements and forms. Anyways, I don't think God created the world, I think God became the world. His eyes, ears, mouths, and bodies are countless. And beyond the confines of the body Brahman is known, everlasting - omnipresent, omniscient.


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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Deism
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2012, 04:13:29 PM »

I’m totally with you.  I’ve described myself as a deist for quite awhile.  I feel that logically, some” force” created the Earth and the Universe.  It is also quite evident to any logical person that this “force” has nothing to do with the made-up nonsense in the bible.

While prayer might help a few people now and then by keeping them positive, for the most part it is a very futile waste of time and gives false hope to so many people.  Neveah is a perfect example.  People prayed for her safe return.  Some people actually went on to thank God that here dead body was found.  If the killer is caught, some will give God credit for that despite the fact that the idea is complete nonsense.  Fact is, no one outside of this Earth played any kind of role in that whole horrible story.

People pray for the sick and even give God credit when people get better.  He’s credited with curing cancer and all sorts of other diseases that modern medicine and science can cure, but curiously only certain people are cured.  I guess God only really hates amputees, since he has never responded to their prayers for new limbs.

And my all-time favorite are sports stars thanking God for victories.  Just once, I’d like to hear someone in the losing locker room say, “We were doing great until Jesus made me fumble.”

If you lose hope all is lost. I do believe God helps those who help themselves. New limbs are on the horizon, keep praying!! :)
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Flanders

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Re: Deism
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 01:08:23 PM »

All very interesting Xerxes.  My question now is does it matter to you personally?  Would the belief in Deism, Taoism, Hinduism, etc.  change how you live your life everyday? 

It all is very interesting on paper, but when it comes down to what you do at 3:00pm today, would it change how you act?  Just wondering.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Deism
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 04:18:48 PM »

All very interesting Xerxes.  My question now is does it matter to you personally?  Would the belief in Deism, Taoism, Hinduism, etc.  change how you live your life everyday? 

It all is very interesting on paper, but when it comes down to what you do at 3:00pm today, would it change how you act?  Just wondering.


I think the matter of theism is an important issue, because it *does* play a role in how one lives their life. I used to be a Christian and now I don't live my life the same. I think it's important to raise children grounded in reality, for if you raise them with these beliefs that are not reality, then when the day of disillusionment comes they will be in an extreme mental crisis. That is NOT fun.

As humans we take our origins seriously. Is there a creator? Who is It? What is its nature? How does  it want us to live? Do we go on after death? Does this life play a role in the life to come? Try as we may we have troubles escaping this want to know. According to some faiths, knowing the truth has an impact on the way you eat, work, treat others, etc., etc...

And, yes, it would change my actions and attitude, because depending on the ground reality, I may wish to live one way or the other.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Deism
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2012, 06:22:32 PM »


I think the matter of theism is an important issue, because it *does* play a role in how one lives their life. I used to be a Christian and now I don't live my life the same. I think it's important to raise children grounded in reality, for if you raise them with these beliefs that are not reality, then when the day of disillusionment comes they will be in an extreme mental crisis. That is NOT fun.

As humans we take our origins seriously. Is there a creator? Who is It? What is its nature? How does  it want us to live? Do we go on after death? Does this life play a role in the life to come? Try as we may we have troubles escaping this want to know. According to some faiths, knowing the truth has an impact on the way you eat, work, treat others, etc., etc...

And, yes, it would change my actions and attitude, because depending on the ground reality, I may wish to live one way or the other.
How can a person that questions so deeply accept that the human mind and spirit is the product of infinite randomness?
Does not randomness contradict infinity?
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Deism
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 06:46:07 PM »

How can a person that questions so deeply accept that the human mind and spirit is the product of infinite randomness?

Does not randomness contradict infinity?

Marilyn, as I stated in my post on randomness, that everything has a prior cause, which regresses back to the initial source, and according to the nature of that source things come into being; therefore, nothing is random as some may think of random. BUT I said I used the word "random" to do away with the idea of "thoughtful/calculating" design. Randomness is really just the intrinsic unfolding of nature, which isn't really random, but rather unpredictable chaotic systems within nature, which still play by the makeup of their own nature.

For example, football. A game of football is played within the nature or laws of the game, but the play itself is a chaotic system with unpredictable results, but still there is a certain order of things due to the nature of the game. The nature of the universe is its intrinsic qualities, as opposed to laws thoughtfully designed by a thoughtful designer, in my opinion, as this makes best sense of the observed world.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Deism
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 06:50:29 PM »

Marilyn, as I stated in my post on randomness, that everything has a prior cause, which regresses back to the initial source, and according to the nature of that source things come into being; therefore, nothing is random as some may think of random. BUT I said I used the word "random" to do away with the idea of "thoughtful/calculating" design. Randomness is really just the intrinsic unfolding of nature, which isn't really random, but rather unpredictable chaotic systems within nature, which still play by the makeup of their own nature.

For example, football. A game of football is played within the nature or laws of the game, but the play itself is a chaotic system with unpredictable results, but still there is a certain order of things due to the nature of the game. The nature of the universe is its intrinsic qualities, as opposed to laws thoughtfully designed by a thoughtful designer, in my opinion, as this makes best sense of the observed world.
But infinity is a mathmatical equation. It is defined perfectly. How can perfection be a product of thoughtlessness? And I need a better answer to where the stuff came from in the first place, aside from it always was.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Deism
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2012, 07:05:01 PM »

Energy is everlasting and it has intrinsic qualities. The second law of thermodynamics, says that energy is constant and spontaneously redistributes itself, as it's chaotic. This fluctuation of vacuum energy would cause *bursts* which are inflation/big bangs, and with this gravity. Gravity keeps the virtual particles in existence long enough to become actual. As Hawking said, "Because of gravity you have something rather than nothing, in a Universe that equals zero." If it wasn't for gravity the positive and negative would annihilate back into the equilibrium of the vacuum.
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sammy

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Re: Deism
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2012, 07:30:04 PM »

Energy is everlasting and it has intrinsic qualities. The second law of thermodynamics, says that energy is constant and spontaneously redistributes itself, as it's chaotic. This fluctuation of vacuum energy would cause *bursts* which are inflation/big bangs, and with this gravity. Gravity keeps the virtual particles in existence long enough to become actual. As Hawking said, "Because of gravity you have something rather than nothing, in a Universe that equals zero." If it wasn't for gravity the positive and negative would annihilate back into the equilibrium of the vacuum.
I'm pretty sure my  positive and negative just annihilated back to zero. BUT, how would I know, unless I have someth0ing rather than  nothing?Methinks you've read WAY too many books on philosophy! Do you ever just take a deep breath, relax, and have a beer? Ever read "North and South, by John Jakes?
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Deism
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2012, 08:13:46 PM »

I'm pretty sure my  positive and negative just annihilated back to zero. BUT, how would I know, unless I have someth0ing rather than  nothing?Methinks you've read WAY too many books on philosophy! Do you ever just take a deep breath, relax, and have a beer? Ever read "North and South, by John Jakes?
But what about dark energy and neutrinos? Ever wonder why they call it the "God particle"? Yes, I enjoy relaxing lol. Yes, I have read North and South, but it was a while ago! Also read all those westerns with the state titles. Can't remember the author offhand.
Energy is everlasting and it has intrinsic qualities. The second law of thermodynamics, says that energy is constant and spontaneously redistributes itself, as it's chaotic. This fluctuation of vacuum energy would cause *bursts* which are inflation/big bangs, and with this gravity. Gravity keeps the virtual particles in existence long enough to become actual. As Hawking said, "Because of gravity you have something rather than nothing, in a Universe that equals zero." If it wasn't for gravity the positive and negative would annihilate back into the equilibrium of the vacuum.
Organized chaos lol. I think of gravity as the hand of God.
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marilyn.monroe

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sammy

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Re: Deism
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2012, 08:22:24 PM »

But what about dark energy and neutrinos? Ever wonder why they call it the "God particle"? Yes, I enjoy relaxing lol. Yes, I have read North and South, but it was a while ago! Also read all those westerns with the state titles. Can't remember the author offhand.Organized chaos lol. I think of gravity as the hand of God.

Hand of God or not, nothing comes from nothing!
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