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MonroeMonkey

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Order From Chaos
« on: June 16, 2012, 04:24:48 PM »

Here's a fun little fact about nature. I'll give an easy example how order can arise from chaotic and unpredictable systems.



First, draw a picture like this, and grab a six sided dice, for chaotic throws. At top corner put 1,2. At the bottom left corner put 3,4. At the bottom right corner put 5,6. These are for the rolls of the dice.




Next, put a single dot anywhere within the triangle.





Now, roll the dice! If you get a 1 or 2 put a dot halfway to the 1,2 corner, from the original dot. If you get a 3 or 4 put a dot halfway to the 3,4 corner. If you get a 5 or 6, put a dot halfway to the 5,6 corner.

If I roll a 3, then I put a dot halfway to the 3,4 corner. On my next roll I start at the 3,4 dot and from that dot make another dot halfway to the number corner I rolled.

In this case, I rolled a 3, so I put a dot halfway to the 3,4 corner from that dot.





Now, I roll a 5, so I put a dot halfway to the 5,6 corner from that dot.





Now, I roll a 4, so I put a dot halfway to the 3,4 corner from that dot.





After enough rolls you see a fractal pattern appearing, until you have this! Order from a chaotic system. Fractals are self-similar patterns, where each part mimics the whole.







Here are some fractals arising in the chaos of nature.


Cauliflower: Notice each part mimics the whole, as we saw in the game above.





Maple leaf: Notice each part mimics the whole, as we saw in the game above.





Pine tree: Notice each part mimics the whole, as we saw in the game above.





Tree: Notice each part mimics the whole, as we saw in the game above.





Clouds: Notice each part mimics the whole, as we saw in the game above.





Waves: Notice each part mimics the whole, as we saw in the game above.





Mountain: Notice each part mimics the whole, as we saw in the game above.






With this understood it's hard to believe some God controls every detail when it's impossible to predict the next action in a chaotic system. I'll explain further how there may not be a need for a thoughtful designer in a universe with such a system. Free-will also falls into a chaotic system, I believe, so while there are co-dependent factors, which make it determined due to dependence, one cannot predict the next action with certainty.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2012, 04:28:48 PM »

Perhaps the system is not so chaotic after all, just above man's comprehension.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2012, 05:05:51 PM »

As I mentioned in another post, the game of football has a certain system and rules. The play within the system is chaotic so you can never predict the outcome with certainty, but you can guess it, at times; also, if a team is better you can factor in the variables for a more accurate guess. While the play itself is chaotic you still get some order, according to the initial rules of the system.


In the matter of nature, one could say God created the system and watches as chaos unpredictably plays out. BUT I think a better explanation is that nature itself has intrinsic qualities, which are fairly simple, and which can be put into equations, whereby it arranges into conceptualized order.

If one can conceive of such order coming into being beyond thought, then this more simple explanation should be favored, according to Occam's Razor, which says, "Stick with the most simple explanation without needlessly employing a god." I'd say, "Without needlessly employing thoughtful creation." The reason why this should be favored is the problem of an infinite regression, which asks, "If God can calculate thoughtfully, then this God has the constitution to think. Where did this complex constitution arise?" In the light of our understanding we see complexity arising from the simple through growth, then breaking down, not complexity arising from the infinitely complex.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2012, 05:22:19 PM »

The study of "simple" tiny particles requires immensely complex systems. In our daily life, the chores don't just magically do themselves, dinner doesn't make itself, robots don't build themselves.

Living things are programmed to work. Who did the programming and where did the stuff come from in the first place?
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2012, 05:27:39 PM »

The study of "simple" tiny particles requires immensely complex systems. In our daily life, the chores don't just magically do themselves, dinner doesn't make itself, robots don't build themselves.

Living things are programmed to work. Who did the programming and where did the stuff come from in the first place?



Sigh... For the third time, did you read and understand my first post in the topic Universe Without Thoughtful Design? You commented in it, so I take it you're ignoring the first post or don't understand it.

http://monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=26295.0

I explained how complex systems which appear to be designed and driven by purpose arise from the mathematical laws that arise from an inflation/big bang, and I touched on the cause of a big bang, which is intrinsically much more simple than a thoughtful designer.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2012, 05:43:09 PM »


Sigh... For the third time, did you read and understand my first post in the topic Universe Without Thoughtful Design? You commented in it, so I take it you're ignoring the first post or don't understand it.

http://monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=26295.0

I explained how complex systems which appear to be designed and driven by purpose arise from the mathematical laws that arise from an inflation/big bang, and I touched on the cause of a big bang, which is intrinsically much more simple than a thoughtful designer.
I don't understand it, and how is believing in eternal energy that different from believing in an eternal God?
I think the evidence shows life was intelligently designed. DNA and RNA show life was intelligently designed. How can systems that can be defined by math be thoughtless? Where did the energy for the big bang come from?
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2012, 06:02:17 PM »

I don't understand it, and how is believing in eternal energy that different from believing in an eternal God?


Yeah. If you go over it until you understand it, then a lot of these questions will be answered, and you'll see where I'm coming from.

The difference here is: thoughtful design Vs. natural processes beyond thought. Again, the energy's intrinsic nature to grow into complexity is much different than some eternal thoughtful being.


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I think the evidence shows life was intelligently designed. DNA and RNA show life was intelligently designed. How can systems that can be defined by math be thoughtless? Where did the energy for the big bang come from?


I explained all that in my original post in that thread. I pointed out how highly complex systems arise from simple laws, and that complexity, which appears to have purpose, can rival that of that cell.

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http://monroetalks.com/forum/index.php?topic=26295.0
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2012, 06:05:09 PM »

Here:



This post will explain why the universe probably wasn't thoughtfully designed.

Mathematician John Conway, came up with a simulation program, called Life, to mimic the random selection of laws within nature. - When I say “random” I don't mean it as some would think. All seemingly random events are dependent on a prior cause; therefore, nothing is purely random, as some think of random. I use the word “random” here to exclude the idea of thoughtfulness behind and within the processes of nature.

Again, Mathematician John Conway came up with a simulation program, called Life, to mimic the random selection of laws within nature. Within this game pixels, called cells, are used upon graph paper. These cells, or pixels, represent the matter within the universe, and the selected laws determine how matter cells interact with other matter cells.

Before the simulation is started one places random cells on the graph paper, which mimic the random matter produced at the inflation of the big bang; also, one selects random laws, which mimic the random laws selected at the big bang. In this case, we randomly select laws and matter before the simulation starts, but in nature the laws and matter would be been randomly produced in the moment of the big bang. When we start the simulation, it mimics the big bang.



For this example, I'll use the laws, or rules, selected by John Conway, which are:

1. Any live cell with fewer than two live neighbors dies, as if caused by under-population.
2. Any live cell with two or three live neighbors lives on to the next generation.
3. Any live cell with more than three live neighbors dies, as if by overcrowding.
4. Any dead cell with exactly three live neighbors becomes a live cell, as if by reproduction.



These are the laws Conway selected, but there are many combinations of laws that can be selected. In this picture we see Conway's laws represented by 2 and 3 being selected on “Survivals” and 3 being selected on “Births.” Each combination of randomly selected laws will produce different effects upon the play between laws and matter. - Notice at the bottom, it gives the option of selecting random rules, and sometimes Conway's will result from that random selection. Some combinations won't produce any working systems, whereas others, like Conway's, surprisingly produce machinery of fair complexity. - This mimics many big bangs, some of which produce working systems, according to their laws, and many others that cannot.



It just so happens that Conway's four laws can produce complexity. Here's some of the interesting systems which are produced once Conway's big bang is simulated by pressing “Start.”

Gliders



Here are gliders, which are quite common, and able to move across space, until other matter interrupts them.

Glider Breeder



Here's a system which remains stable and breeds gliders.

Pulsar



Here's a pulsar, which reminds me of a sun like system.

Large Breeder



Here's a large system of glider breeders.

These systems seem to be designed by intelligence and driven by purpose, but this play is merely obeying its inherent nature of laws. Someone may say, “But this simulation was intelligently designed.” Yes, but remember, it mimics the random setting of laws and distribution of matter at a big bang. - Someone else may ask, “For this to be random you may need many big bangs.” - Right. And just as there are billions of planets not in the right place for life, many universes may not have laws in the right place to bring about the potentiality for life.

Men have often believed because man can thoughtfully create complex systems, this universe must be a system created by thoughtful intelligence. But ask yourself questions, like, “If I had the ability to create complex systems, would I create billions of planets, which are not able to bear life?” I question if anyone would, and this may hint at there being billions of universes with laws not able to bring about life. This seems to put into question thoughtful design.

One may ask, “How does Darwinian evolution, in all its complexity, arise out of a universe without thoughtful design? Look at the inner workings of the cell, with all its complexity.” The cell is highly complex, from our views of complexity, but let's look at a system which arises out of Conway's simulation. Here you see a system which appears to have purpose and thoughtfully constructed, but it arose from simple random laws, which brought about complexity over time, from the simple to the complex.

Better example in video!



We observe within nature that all things arise from the simple and become complex over time. Our ability to thoughtfully reason came about over billions of years of evolution, from the simple to the complex. The ability to thoughtfully design seems to be a mechanism which arose out of billions of years of evolution. But some say a god thoughtfully designed this universe and has always had the ability to thoughtfully design things. This goes against our knowledge of how reality works. From our observation and testing we find systems arise from the simple and gain in complexity over time, even the complex ability to thoughtfully design.

Which makes more sense, an infinitely complex god that always was, or a simple source which grows into ever increasingly complex forms over time, according to its eternal nature? Something, according to our reasoning, must be eternal, religion says its a causeless complex being, science points to a causeless simple being.

This simple being that science points to would be the vacuum. The vacuum is an eternal sea of roaring energy, which fluctuates according to its nature. From this arises simple particles, called virtual particles; these particles pop into existence for a fraction of a second before they annihilate. They come into being in two parts, +1 positive energy and -1 negative energy, when these two parts come together they annihilate. They pop in and out of existence so quickly they are called virtual particles, as opposed to real particles.

Fluctuations within the vacuum can cause an inflation, which is a big bang. This inflation produces gravitational force, which keeps massive amounts of positive and negative energy apart, which keeps it from completely annihilating. Gravity is what causes the virtual to remain in existence long enough to be considered real. This is why you have something rather than nothing in a Universe that equals zero.

The complexity of the universe is amazing. But just because we don't understand all its workings, at this time, doesn't mean an invisible thoughtful designer is behind it. The more we learn, by science, the more we see there's no need to fill the gaps of our knowledge with a thoughtful designer; and the more we see how everything complex has a most simple origin.

It could be that an intelligent mind extracts from nature, according to its intelligence, and by this sees intelligence within the extraction, thereby tricking itself. Bound by its natural faculties it sees everything as in a mirror, seeing intelligence inwardly and outwardly; seeing thoughtful design even in the thoughtless processes of nature. To such a mind everything is intelligently designed, for our faculties of extraction are intelligent and shape our world within that intelligence; and by that intelligence we measure and quantify everything.


Here's a video I made that has more picture examples. Forgive the fake accent.

Universe Without Design

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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2012, 06:34:16 PM »

I understand math has random numbers, they either fit into an equation or they don't. How can a thoughtless system be defined by thought (math)?
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2012, 06:37:10 PM »

I'm thinking "randomness" is variables. What about the intelligence of DNA and RNA?
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2012, 06:40:34 PM »

One more question :P How come every person has unique dna. That's not random.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2012, 06:44:15 PM »

I understand math has random numbers, they either fit into an equation or they don't. How can a thoughtless system be defined by thought (math)?


By extraction. Our minds extract a certain picture of the world so we can survive. We use that ability to extract mathematical systems out of nature, but there are both systems with order and things without marked order, according to our perception. We put labels on processes which don't have labels without us.


I'm thinking "randomness" is variables. What about the intelligence of DNA and RNA?

How many times do I have to tell you to re-read and understand my post on Conway's Life? It shows that the process SEEMS intelligent, SEEMS to have purpose, SEEMS to have a thoughtful designer, but arises from natural law. The intelligent thoughtfulness would be an illusion we create by anthropomorphizing; that is trying to make some god into our own image.


One more question :P How come every person has unique dna. That's not random.

When two germ cells come together they create a unique blend of the two previous strands, which all arose from natural processes, according to the laws set at the big bang...
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2012, 06:52:55 PM »

How did the natural processes arise?

Everything does have a purpose, does it not?
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2012, 07:10:45 PM »

How did the natural processes arise?

I've explained how that could happen without thought. Do you read anything other people post, or just keep repeating the same questions?



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Everything does have a purpose, does it not?


No. We extract a purpose on an ever changing process; thus, we extract the illusion of purpose as a concept of mind. Things are merely obeying law, which arises according to nature, beyond thought, and we read some thoughtful purpose into it; again, the anthropomorphic fallacy. It's a play of law and element.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2012, 07:22:31 PM »

I haven't read where the energy came from for the big bang.

It would seem like the creation of a universe would make a big bang.

Law. Things are simply obeying the law. Laws are made to be broken, and they are. Who laid down the law?
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