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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2012, 08:05:46 PM »

Although Plato does not have an explicit theory of natural law (he almost never uses the phrase natural law except in Gorgias 484 and Timaeus 83e), his concept of nature, according to John Wild, contains some of the elements found in many natural law theories.[5] According to Plato we live in an orderly universe.[6] At the basis of this orderly universe or nature are the forms, most fundamentally the Form of the Good, which Plato describes as "the brightest region of Being".[7] The Form of the Good is the cause of all things and when it is seen it leads a person to act wisely.[8] In the Symposium, the Good is closely identified with the Beautiful.[9] Also in the Symposium, Plato describes how the experience of the Beautiful by Socrates enables him to resist the temptations of wealth and sex.[10] In the Republic, the ideal community is “a city which would be established in accordance with nature.”[11]

Greek philosophy emphasized the distinction between "nature" (physis, φúσις) on the one hand and "law", "custom", or "convention" (nomos, νóμος) on the other. What the law commanded varied from place to place, but what was "by nature" should be the same everywhere. A "law of nature" would therefore have had the flavor more of a paradox than something which obviously existed.[1] Against the conventionalism that the distinction between nature and custom could engender, Socrates and his philosophic heirs, Plato and Aristotle, posited the existence of natural justice or natural right (dikaion physikon, δικαιον φυσικον, Latin ius naturale). Of these, Aristotle is often said to be the father of natural law.[12]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law

In philosophy, the natural order is the moral source from which natural law seeks to derive its authority. It encompasses the natural relations of beings to one another, in the absence of law, which natural law attempts to reinforce.
 
In contrast, divine law seeks authority from God, and positive law seeks authority from government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_order_(philosophy)

Spontaneous order, also known as "self-organization", is the spontaneous emergence of order out of seeming chaos. It is a process found in physical, biological, and social networks, as well as economics, though the term "self-organization" is more often used for physical and biological processes, while "spontaneous order" is typically used to describe the emergence of various kinds of social orders from a combination of self-interested individuals who are not intentionally trying to create order through planning. The evolution of life on Earth, language, crystal structure, the Internet and a free market economy have all been proposed as examples of systems which evolved through spontaneous order.[1] Naturalists often point to the inherent "watch-like" precision of uncultivated ecosystems and to the universe itself as ultimate examples of this phenomenon.[citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_order

Awareness of self.  How can everything function on thought processes, but be the product of thoughtless design?
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2012, 08:06:36 PM »

I haven't read where the energy came from for the big bang.

It would seem like the creation of a universe would make a big bang.

Law. Things are simply obeying the law. Who laid down the law?

I've already answered all those questions, and this is the last time I'll address you about them. If you continue to ask the same questions, while ignoring my answers, I'll ignore your questions.

The energy of the vacuum would be eternal, as it's beyond time, as we know it; therefore, it cannot have a beginning or an end. Again, this type of eternal vacuum energy, according to its very nature, as I've pointed out, redistributes itself, or fluctuates, and this fluctuation creates big bangs, which generate gravity, space, time, and the other laws simultaneously.

Why does this energy fluctuate and generate gravity? It just does, according to its nature. We may never know why, just as fire can't burn fire; nevertheless, this doesn't imply a "thoughtful designer" unless you commit the god of the gaps fallacy, which is based off a anthropomorphic fallacy, which could be argument from ignorance.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2012, 08:09:49 PM »

But infinity has a beginning.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2012, 08:12:34 PM »

It just does is the same answer people give for God. He just is. That's not scientific.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2012, 08:19:02 PM »

How can everything function on thought processes, but be the product of thoughtless design?


Where is your proof that everything runs on thought process? A heart can beat in a brain dead person's body. Planets grow without brains, etc., etc...

The burden of proof is on the ones saying the universe is thoughtfully designed, as that is an unproven positive claim. The one who says they have no need to read the anthropomorphic thought into nature remains free of that fallacy.


But infinity has a beginning.

According to the anthropomorphic limitations of your fallacy. Do you see what you're doing? Because you had a beginning doesn't mean everything else does.


It just does is the same answer people give for God. He just is.

Yet they employ needless fallacies without proof. I have no reason to read some invisible thoughtful tribal god into the way nature grows. As Science progresses the need for these types of gods gets pushes further and further back. Everything makes sense in light of natural law, not supernatural miracles.

Again, we both make the claim something always IS. BUT you anthropomorphize, where I see no need to do that.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2012, 08:23:40 PM »


Where is your proof that everything runs on thought process? A heart can beat in a brain dead person's body. Planets grow without brains, etc., etc...

The burden of proof is on the ones saying the universe is thoughtfully designed, as that is an unproven positive claim. The one who says they have no need to read the anthropomorphic thought into nature remains free of that fallacy.


According to the anthropomorphic limitations of your fallacy. Do you see what you're doing? Because you had a beginning doesn't mean everything else does.


Yet they employ needless fallacies without proof. I have no reason to read some invisible thoughtful tribal god into the way nature grows. As Science progresses the need for these types of gods gets pushes further and further back. Everything makes sense in light of natural law, not supernatural miracles.

Again, we both make the claim something always IS. BUT you anthropomorphize, where I see no need to do that.
My proof is DNA and RNA. Mathmatically, infinity has a beginning, I am not anthropomorphizing, maybe you are.
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2012, 08:34:58 PM »

My proof is DNA and RNA.

According to your fallacious logic. Again, you didn't even attempt to understand my post on Universe Without Thoughtful Design, or maybe you just can't get it...


Quote
Mathmatically, infinity has a beginning...

That has nothing to do with the vacuum beyond space-time! Again, there's NO time for their to be a beginning, as there is NO time. Lol... Geez.


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I am not anthropomorphizing, maybe you are.

The hell you're not. Let me define it for you.

Dictionary:

an·thro·po·mor·phic   [an-thruh-puh-mawr-fik]

1.

ascribing human form or attributes to a being or thing not human, especially to a deity.



Marilyn, I'm done talking to you, before I get frustrated and start insulting your intelligence.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2012, 08:37:29 PM »

An infinite regress in a series of propositions arises if the truth of proposition P1 requires the support of proposition P2, the truth of proposition P2 requires the support of proposition P3, ... , and the truth of proposition Pn-1 requires the support of proposition Pn and n approaches infinity.
 
Distinction is made between infinite regresses that are "vicious" and those that are not. One definition given is that a vicious regress is "an attempt to solve a problem which re-introduced the same problem in the proposed solution. If one continues along the same lines, the initial problem will recur infinitely and will never be solved. Not all regresses, however, are vicious."[1]
 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_regress
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MonroeMonkey

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Re: Order From Chaos
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2012, 08:49:46 PM »

The Christian's infinite regression leads into everlasting extreme complexity, which leads into a vicious unending regression.

Science's infinite regression leads into everlasting elegant simplicity, which leads into a possible theory of everything, which could be understood. From this, one could understand how everlasting intrinsically simple being could grow into complexity, according to its simple elegant nature.


Weigh the options and you may forsake the god of the gaps for what many consider a better route of knowledge.
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