Print

[sammy]

Back to the topic.


Slavery & Racism


However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46)


Beating Slaves


When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21)


WHAT THE HECK!? You can beat your slaves, provided they live after a few days, for they are your property!?


These commands were given by the One True Holy and Loving God?

Most everyone here , with the exception of Less and marilyn, will see discrepancies in the bible. Most people pick out the parts they like, to support their beliefs. In your case, you pick out the parts that support your disbelief. How does that make you superior to them?

[Flanders]

Sammy

While that sounds fine to some people, picking and choosing the parts you like, for others who truly believe that the bible is the word of God, this type of selective faith can be troublesome.

For if you start believing that perhaps there was some human manipulation and editing, than a legitimate concern arises about the cornerstone of your faith, literal Word of God.

[MonroeMonkey]

Yeah, and many believe the Bible to be without error and the perfect word of God.

Sammy, Christians have murdered thousands over the years and even put people, like Galileo under house arrest until his death. John Bunyan, the writer of The Pilgrim's Progress, which I still like, was put in prison for years, by Christians, because people didn't like his preaching. His wife and kids were left without a father because of this.

Don't you think its time we move out of these beliefs that have caused so much hate and bigotry? Look at how LessGov hates on homosexuals for being true to their natures. And I don't buy for a minute he loves them. They can preach hell and how everyone is evil, but others can't point out how absurd their belief systems and Bible are? They have tormented humans for years with fearful hells and other nonsense, but they cry "Persecution!" when you are merely pointing out the problems with the very foundations of their faith.

But, as Christians often tell me, to question the Bible through critical thinking is of the devil! If it makes sense it has to be the devil.

[LessGovernment]

WAIT: - hold on Xerxes!!!

Not another "drive-by" hypocritical insult, followed by a "back to the topic" - talk about "getting around things" ...

fallacious ways  of getting around their Christ's commandments. 

First of all - it is THE Christ ... not MY Christ; I didn't create Him in my mind...

Secondly <it's fallacious to say that something must exist because science hasn't proven its nonexistence>; and YOU believe a one thing cell in a puddle somewhere, long ago and far away said: "I think I'll be two" and off it went?

Sermon on the Mount:

Jesus says, "Don't be deceived you'll know the heart condition of a man by the fruit of his mouth. Good trees bear good fruit of the lips, showing they are my disciples; those who bear bad fruit show themselves contrary to my commands." - What version fo the Bible is this?  What is the CONTEXT?  ( and sammy was right, as a Bible-denier; you shouldn't USE the Bible to "prove" your point that it is fake, or, I'm deceiving anyone ... haven't asked anyone to come to my church and believe in my Jesus, ya know...

Jesus said, "Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect." He said this in relation to "turning the other cheek" and "loving your enemies." Then He says, "Why do you call Me Lord, but don't keep my commandments?" Didn't Paul say let your speech always be gentle to the unbelievers? Why? To show you're not like the rest of the *lost* world. - You are not in the category spoken of in passages having to do with HOW you are telling me to "witness" to you; you are a hard-hearted fool, who, has SEEN people obey God - and yet - you REJECTED their way; and now you MOCK them and ALL believers ... would you dare to ridicule the gentle old lady who obeys the Bible perfectly in YOUR eyes, would you call her a FOOL to her face and persuade her to adopt humanism as her life philosophy?  Could you do it?

Why don't you interrupt a Sunday service at Bronco McKart's church in town there, and spew your disbelief from the pulpit there and name-call the audience the way you do here ... in person?

...more later...gotta go - back to work ... this is FUN though ...

[MonroeMonkey]

The God of Lies

The biblical god fills the prophets with a lying spirit.

1 Kings 22:

Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”



WHAT THE HECK!? God causes people to lie so that others will die!? Just remember, next time you LIE, you may be doing the will of the biblical god.

[MonroeMonkey]

Not another "drive-by" hypocritical insult, followed by a "back to the topic" - talk about "getting around things" ...

Let me define hypocrite for you, from the dictionary.

Hyp·o·crite

1.
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

I have no religion. I don't believe I'm a man of virtue. I don't pretend to be morally upright, nor do I wave the banner of any religion. If the bible was right, yes, I'd be a sinner. I find some of the ideas in all faiths interesting, but I don't subscribe to any particular one.

fallacious ways  of getting around their Christ's commandments. 

First of all - it is THE Christ ... not MY Christ; I didn't create Him in my mind...

Saying that does nothing. I AM SUPERMAN! THE SUPERMAN. See, it does nothing.

Secondly <it's fallacious to say that something must exist because science hasn't proven its nonexistence>; and YOU believe a one thing cell in a puddle somewhere, long ago and far away said: "I think I'll be two" and off it went?

Can you tell me what atoms are, then molecules, and then amino acids? Do you know what entropy is?

When I boil water, feeding energy (fire) into the pot of water, something interesting happens in relation to energy. Bubbles form and eventually release as vapor into the air. All throughout nature you find systems arising in relation to the distribution of energy. Why would life come into being? As systems of energy distribution! We eat energy and discard waste. We are energy distributing machines that arise from the laws of physics/entropy.

I explained in "Universe Without Thoughtful Design" how you can get HIGHLY complex systems that appear to be designed and appear to have purpose, but don't. In this same way, life arises without thoughtful design because of these laws of physics.

What version fo the Bible is this?  What is the CONTEXT?  ( and sammy was right, as a Bible-denier; you shouldn't USE the Bible to "prove" your point that it is fake, or, I'm deceiving anyone ... haven't asked anyone to come to my church and believe in my Jesus, ya know...

Says you? The point is, not only do you believe in these absurdities, you don't even have the wits to follow your Christ.

You are not in the category spoken of in passages having to do with HOW you are telling me to "witness" to you; you are a hard-hearted fool, who, has SEEN people obey God - and yet - you REJECTED their way; and now you MOCK them and ALL believers ... would you dare to ridicule the gentle old lady who obeys the Bible perfectly in YOUR eyes, would you call her a FOOL to her face and persuade her to adopt humanism as her life philosophy?  Could you do it?

Why would I just walk up to an old lady and do that? This is a FORUM and we're in the RELIGION AND PHILOSOPHY category. Don't you get that? Lol... Geez. I am debating religion in a place meant to discuss and debate religion. I don't walk up to random old people and call them fools. Lol... You're reasoning baffles me.

And what did Jesus say about calling people fools?

Why don't you interrupt a Sunday service at Bronco McKart's church in town there, and spew your disbelief from the pulpit there and name-call the audience the way you do here ... in person?

Again, why would I just walk into a church and do that? Only a madman would do that. Again, we're on a forum meant to discuss and debate these matters.

I know Bronco McKart, his brother Matt, his Father Eugene. I grew up with Matt, and I'm friends with him; lived a few houses down from them. We used to hang out, box, etc.

[MonroeMonkey]

I apologize for making this thread. I shouldn't be so hard on Christians.


Less, if your faith gives you peace and joy, then embrace it. There's nothing wrong with walking in compassion and love, and if Jesus helps people do that, then that's a good part of this faith.


Again, I apologize. Take it easy, Everyone.

[livewire]

Xerxes, practically EVERY post you have made on this forum puts down Christians, and Christianity.
It's not just THIS thread.

I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal savior.  Nothing you say can alter that fact.

My faith in what I believe is solid.  Is yours?

Sounds to me it's not Christians you are trying to change.

[LessGovernment]

I don't think you have questions about the Bible, or the Christian faith - as I said before; you just like getting people's goat, not a life philosophy to advance. 

You said "it's about time we had a war on Christianity" - you are all for that - so I proposed you take some of your examples of what you know, what you have personally witnessed, and upset the apple cart in PERSON - not from behind a keyboard.

I stood up for what I believed in when I lived there: I spoke at the Tea Parties in Loranger Square, I ran for State Rep. and had to get on the stage at Monroe County Community College and pass the microphone back and forth between the incumbent Kate Ebli on my right, and the Republican challenger Jean Dahm on my left for nearly 90 minutes after I socked both of them pretty hard in my opening statement in the newspaper sponsored candidate forum.

So, at this point I am challenging you to do something more than rip on people, believers, and postulate about how to properly frame and argument or debate - and honestly - I know your philosophy will never go mainstream; but merely hold political power, and employ force against those who think God is higher than Caesar.

It is your position/side that makes no sense to MOST people; and granted everyone is at a different level of understanding/education in their Christian "walk" - but - your approach will never snuff out their belief in the existence of a Creator like one puts out a cigarette because you are so convincing - there is just too much ridicule in your assertions, and when you insult people's intelligence; they reject you out of hand - no matter how much formal/personal time you have spent studying the matter.

Hovind "mocked" the evolution philosophy, and said he can't "help" those that believe some of the absurdities believed by faith in it - but he never condescended like you have...so...you dug yourself a big hole, buddy...we KNOW what you believe/reject ... 'nuff said!

[Frenchfry]

Not my area of expertise but I rather enjoy the Xerxes contributions.

Again the righties are attacking the messenger rather than discussing their reasons for disagreement.

Cyber-bullying has become so common that people don't even realize they're doing it anymore.

Treat people like you'd like to me treated.

Sorry but being mean seems even worse coming from bible-thumpers.

[MonroeMonkey]

Don't get me wrong, I truly disagree with much of the Bible, as it supports the killing of children and homosexuals; it puts forth absurd ideas about everlasting torment for mere humans; it calls for slavery and encourages rape. I could have posted a hundred more things in this thread about what I find disturbing in Christianity.

With that said, I have no problem with people who follow Jesus's teachings in a way that leads them into a more loving, peace, and compassionate lifestyle. Again, there is much about the Bible I find disturbing, but at the same time there is wisdom. I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I think one can use intelligence to sort through the wheat and the tares of the Bible, as one must do with all scriptures of various faiths. People will say, "You're a cherry picker! Our scriptures say you cannot cherry pick!" But he who cherry picks has the most cherries. I like cherries.

It does seem the original Jesus could have been an Apocalyptic, as found in Paul's authentic letters, which are believed to be 7 of the 13, and the earliest Gospels of Mark and Matthew. But the Jesus which seems to have evolved, as partly found in Matthew, and found in Luke, John, and Thomas is more mystical, and useful, in my opinion.

Studying early Christianity, one finds there were so many schools before the Orthodox gave us the Bible we have. There were the Marcionites, Ebionites, Gnostics, Proto-orthodox, Apocalypticists, etc. Even then, in the 1st and 2nd century people were making Jesus into whatever they believed him to be. Some of those Jesus's I find absurd, others are interesting. In reality, you can make Jesus into anything you want him to be.

Even more modern Hindu's have made Jesus into a teacher of Self-Realization, as we find in Yukteswar and his disciple Yogananda. I, personally, find that Jesus to be one of the most interesting and beneficial takes on Jesus ever put forth. And if that is who Jesus really is and was, and what he really taught, then I think he ought to be revered as a true Christ. But, as it is, we don't really know who Jesus really was or what he truly said, so we're free to adopt any Jesus we like.

Depending on your interpretation of Jesus, I think he can be a stumbling block to the world or a stepping stone. While I think Jesus can be beneficial if interpreted a certain way, I think he can be used for strange teachings as well. While I revere the Jesus of Yogananda, I view the Apocalyptic Jesus as shady. Same goes with god. I find the god of Calvinism to be disturbing, though I once subscribed to it, but other Christian views of God aren't as bad. My complaint depends on the Jesus or God one is presenting.

Anyways, I apologized for my method of discussion; although, I still hold to the views I presented. And I can admit that it's ego that really cares or contends; although, in part, I genuinely think it would be better for many to drop beliefs that are truly wrong and absurd.



And, Less, look at the harsh style of Hitchens. He won *many* over to atheism by his aggressive style. While I think the style can be harsh, and one I shouldn't practice, he won A LOT over to atheism. I, also, have caused people to come out of Christianity with my heated opposition to such beliefs. Whether the messenger comes in fancy or rough clothes, at the end of the day it's the message that's heard. Words are seeds and some are planted gently and others ride in rough on the wind. And, I do speak *face to face* with people on these matters, causing them to question their absurd beliefs, but I'm not trying to win anyone to atheism. I don't think one should dump their spirituality, only have an intelligent and realistic one.

[LessGovernment]

Xerxes; you still got nothin'

Christians who disobey the bible once, or many times; pastors/preachers/evenagelists/reverends/politicians who are in it for the money and not even born again give your "side" ammuntions or cherries.

This is Flanders' question: WHY the wars in the name of religion, WHY the "hate" as you call it(rather than understanding the Creator is expressing His ATTITUDE about thoughts/words/deeds deemed disruptive, or harmful to oneself/His creation) - as Hovind says: if there is a Creator, there are rules set forth by Him - and since I believe I was created, WHY would I argue with the Creator.

Don't get me wrong, I am FREE to disobey - and you are FREE to deny; but your desire to "war" with the General Principles of Christianity wherever they are rooted, appear, or are common/culturally accepted is actually an act of aggression that, once again, cannot be proven to be beneficial BECAUSE world history demonstrates that Godless people only steal, kill, and destroy things[and as an aside Flanders: I am against these wars that Israel/United States are perpetrating that have/are murdering countless thousands of innocent - it is NOT Christian at all]

Xerxes, you cannot PROVE, and nor can I; but spiritually speaking - having a conscience, too many things in nature that are unexplainable, and historical evidence that willful obedience and encouragement of the basic MORAL tenets of Judeo-Christian theology BENEFITS humanity - and you cannot prove it does not, when it is done properly is more than enough evidence for the existence of God.

You know I could care less for organized religion; Catholocicsm and their works-based-system, the Southern Baptist Convention and their love of establishment Republican Party hypocrite war-mongerign candidates, and even most all the seminaries that complicate the Gospel message so much so they make Christianity into a cult, complete with gate-keepers and man-made hierarchies of leadership in order to protect the ponzi scheme that serves money.

Satan has a mighty arsenal to keep people from believing on Christ.  Your arguments are the least worrisome.  Guys as smart as you often become church leaders, being as well versed as you are, you could bilk people out of millions because you'll "always have a learned answer"; it's just a matter of how good a salesman you are. 

Perhaps you'll soon find out, your current approach won't make you rich or famous; and you don't really have a count of how many "decision cards" for atheism Hitchens accumulated - fact is - he was exposing Christian hypocrites, not converting people to atheism.

I am secure in my thought patterns/approach to this life...it's been fun rebutting your ridicule, and I will keep it up as long as you do...but I don't think you have converted anyone; you just have a small cheering section of fans on this insignificant forum who already HATE the idea of having moral cords from a Divine source monitor their conduct in thought/word/deed in any way...and that, is unrealistic.

 

[MonroeMonkey]

Xerxes; you still got nothin'

Saying that doesn't make it true.

This is Flanders' question: WHY the wars in the name of religion, WHY the "hate" as you call it(rather than understanding the Creator is expressing His ATTITUDE about thoughts/words/deeds deemed disruptive, or harmful to oneself/His creation) - as Hovind says: if there is a Creator, there are rules set forth by Him - and since I believe I was created, WHY would I argue with the Creator.

Hovind can prove Yahweh as Creator, as much as a Muslim can prove Allah is Creator. Just because people have so-called *Holy Books* to back them doesn't make their claims in invisible deities true. You have to understand the circular reasoning of such things.

Don't get me wrong, I am FREE to disobey - and you are FREE to deny; but your desire to "war" with the General Principles of Christianity wherever they are rooted, appear, or are common/culturally accepted is actually an act of aggression that, once again, cannot be proven to be beneficial BECAUSE world history demonstrates that Godless people only steal, kill, and destroy things[and as an aside Flanders: I am against these wars that Israel/United States are perpetrating that have/are murdering countless thousands of innocent - it is NOT Christian at all]

The war against Christianity isn't with guns and knifes, it's with education, science, and the principles of logic.

History has shown that people without a god only steal, kill, and destroy? Where do you come up with this? The god of the Bible murdered, roughly, 40,000,000 people in the Bible, through wars, a flood, etc., etc.. Moses called this god, "A man of War." Religious people, who have a god, have slaughtered people for ages for not bowing to their invisible deities, or for not keeping to absurd arbitrary commands not founded in reason, but in obsessive compulsive superstition.

No doubt, atheistic men have slaughtered people for their insane causes, but so have religious men. It's the person and their views, not a god or absence of a god. Again, I don't oppose all views of god, only those which are absurd and harmful, such as Christianity's oppression of homosexuals and the child abuse of teaching children of eternal torment and separation.

Xerxes, you cannot PROVE, and nor can I; but spiritually speaking - having a conscience, too many things in nature that are unexplainable, and historical evidence that willful obedience and encouragement of the basic MORAL tenets of Judeo-Christian theology BENEFITS humanity - and you cannot prove it does not, when it is done properly is more than enough evidence for the existence of God.

Just because things aren't understood right now doesn't mean the possible biblical anthropomorphical fallacy is true. It's a god of the gaps argument. There are other explanations that don't require Yahweh.

Satan has a mighty arsenal to keep people from believing on Christ.  Your arguments are the least worrisome.  Guys as smart as you often become church leaders, being as well versed as you are, you could bilk people out of millions because you'll "always have a learned answer"; it's just a matter of how good a salesman you are. 

It's always Satan. Ever think about the alternatives? Maybe bad things happen according to the natural flow of nature? I can see someone using the idea of a metaphorical devil, as the Buddhists employ Mara (the wicked one), but to expect people to believe in literal warring invisible angels requires proof.

If you want to put forth the workings of nature as proof that the allegory of a Devil is at work within the minds of men, then alright, but it only makes sense as a romanticized allegory. But hey, I'm a romanticist myself and love employing allegories, like Mara and demons.

Perhaps you'll soon find out, your current approach won't make you rich or famous; and you don't really have a count of how many "decision cards" for atheism Hitchens accumulated - fact is - he was exposing Christian hypocrites, not converting people to atheism.

I don't wish to become famous. If I did, I wouldn't be chatting on here all the time. And Hitchens won scores to atheism. Ever read God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, by Christopher Hitchens?

I am secure in my thought patterns/approach to this life...it's been fun rebutting your ridicule, and I will keep it up as long as you do...but I don't think you have converted anyone; you just have a small cheering section of fans on this insignificant forum who already HATE the idea of having moral cords from a Divine source monitor their conduct in thought/word/deed in any way...and that, is unrealistic.

Don't underestimate the power of strong reason. It's possible a guest reading has considered the things I've said and that these seeds will bear fruit later, which will in turn bear even more fruit. But again, I'm not out to win people to atheism. I encourage people to be spiritual, but have an intelligent spirituality that evolves with our growth in science and knowledge.

Ever think our morality and spirituality need an upgrade to fit our times and knowledge?

[MonroeMonkey]

Xerxes, practically EVERY post you have made on this forum puts down Christians, and Christianity.
It's not just THIS thread.

I've admitted my method needs reformation. I should be careful not to be antagonistic.

I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal savior.  Nothing you say can alter that fact.

My faith in what I believe is solid.  Is yours?

I haven't discussed your views of Jesus with you. I may quite like your Jesus, as there are various Jesus's among Christianity.

And my beliefs are only solid when I know they are true for sure. Many of the things I entertain I'm not certain about or solid.

Laozi and Socrates sought to create confusion in the minds of those who thought they knew, showing we know little, but we have such faith that we know everything. I, personally, don't know much, but I know all the arguments and can make people question their certainty by opposing arguments. I can't make everyone question their certainty, but I can some, and some are made the better for it.

Sounds to me it's not Christians you are trying to change.

Remember, I think the god of the Bible is a war criminal, as he calls for rape, infanticide, slavery, etc. I oppose teaching children of everlasting torment and separation from loved ones. I oppose the oppression of Christianity against homosexuals. In my sincere view, I think the world would be better off without such beliefs that cause harm to innocent people, like homosexuals and children, etc. I could give an exhaustive list of the what I consider unbeneficial and harmful among Christian beliefs and teachings; I could do the same with Hinduism and Islam, but being I live in America I speak to the religion of America. If I lived in India or Iran, I'd be speaking about the absurdities of those religions and how they harm the innocent and create fear; although, I probably wouldn't say much if Iran, for fear of being murdered in the name of Allah.

[Pax]

     Perhaps, Xerxes, to enhance your arsenal of things you disagree with you would be so kind as to examine the Babylonian Talmud and Koran as well as whichever "bible" you currently have at your disposal.  Peace, Love and Kumbaya aren't found in either of those books, either, despite what their adherents and the ecumenically-inclined believers-of-nothing-in-particular have to say on the topic. 
     
     Insulting everyone and everything is much more acceptable than your obsession and fetish for targetting Christianity...perhaps Marilyn will join you in that endeavour?