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Frenchfry

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2012, 10:01:00 PM »

Poll: Most oppose blocking Obama health care law
A new poll shows that most Americans -- 56% -- want to see critics of President Obama's health care law drop efforts to block it and move on to other national issues
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2012/07/poll-most-oppose-blocking-obama-health-care-law/1#.T_OjcfWE5ad
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SidecarFlip

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2012, 10:06:30 PM »

Polls and pollsters don't mean squat.  Polls can lean the way the pollsters want them to just by where the sampling is taken at.

I heavily discount all polls no matter which way the lean.  In other words, just so much intellectual fodder. ;D
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Baby Hitler

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2012, 10:36:11 PM »

Whole lot of truth in that statement.  I personally know 3 individuals on Medicaid who do just that.

40 grand a year (gross) won't buy groceries, gas for the jalopy and a roof over your head, let alone paying a 'penalty', excuse me TAX for health care that you can't afford in the first place......  Not even close without some 'free cheese'.........

I'm sure Obama will fess up with some cheese.  He's good for at least that......
You know three people on medicaid? I find it hard to believe that someone like you would acknowledge knowing someone on medicaid, let alone actually knowing them.

You know, I'm tired of arguing with people who can't even do a little homework on a subject, and instead, attack the person that is trying to give them information. Why don't you and the "Professor" go back and read the link Old Salt posted in here.

At least HE had the decency to try and educate himself. 8*
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pam

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2012, 11:16:08 PM »

Medicaid is just so wasteful all around. I have a special needs son and he has Medicaid as a secondary insurance to cover the expenses that our primary insurances does not cover. It's just insane how much the medical supply company charges Medicaid for his supplies...and it frustrates me to no end since the company is contracted by Medicaid to be the sole provider of medical supplies. I wish that I could just purchase the supplies from a local pharmacy or Amazon and submit the bill to Medicaid for reimbursement. It would save me the frustration of dealing with the supply company and I am certain that I could cut that bill by at least half, maybe more with coupons.

On the point of the ER for Medicaid, I think there should be stricter rules about what qualifies as a medical emergency. Our primary insurance company encourages us to use urgent care and if we do use the ER, we could be liable for the entire bill if our visit is not for an emergency (ear infections, colds, etc). The wait time at urgent care is way shorter and if the condition warrants emergency care, the urgent care will send you. You would probably be seen and diagnosed before you'd even get called back in the ER.
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Frenchfry

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2012, 11:37:07 PM »

Medicaid is just so wasteful all around. I have a special needs son and he has Medicaid as a secondary insurance to cover the expenses that our primary insurances does not cover. It's just insane how much the medical supply company charges Medicaid for his supplies...and it frustrates me to no end since the company is contracted by Medicaid to be the sole provider of medical supplies. I wish that I could just purchase the supplies from a local pharmacy or Amazon and submit the bill to Medicaid for reimbursement. It would save me the frustration of dealing with the supply company and I am certain that I could cut that bill by at least half, maybe more with coupons.

On the point of the ER for Medicaid, I think there should be stricter rules about what qualifies as a medical emergency. Our primary insurance company encourages us to use urgent care and if we do use the ER, we could be liable for the entire bill if our visit is not for an emergency (ear infections, colds, etc). The wait time at urgent care is way shorter and if the condition warrants emergency care, the urgent care will send you. You would probably be seen and diagnosed before you'd even get called back in the ER.
I've seen the same wasteful type ridiculous pricing but with Medicare.  The rental fee for a few months on a CPAP machine could have bought the unit outright. Shopping for the best value should be allowed but then I'd like to eliminate the profit motive from the healthcare industry altogether. And for the record...(and also seemingly random) I'm not a fan of cheese...government or otherwise.  :P
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Frenchfry

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SMASH

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2012, 11:54:37 PM »

EXACTLY

Just what the Justice proposed.  It's a tax.  It purs Obama in a very precarious position as far as reelection.  Now it's the land of a thousand dances, or should we say 'smoke and mirrors' all designed to skirt the actual premise.  It will be up to Rummy how he capitalizes on the situation.  I'm sure it will be very interesting in as much as Rummy's handlers are every bit as astute as Obama's.

They're the same!


Obama is running a deficit campaign and has from the start, IMO.  He promised 'Hope and Change' 4 years ago and didn't deliver, in fact, we regressed.  Will be an interesting November and I'll be here, God willing.
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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2012, 12:00:33 AM »

You're a politician running for re-election. Say you're going to raise taxes. Do you tell people that?

NO! You call them fines, fees, and regulations!
Just like the Republicans and Democrats do. Cause the People have no clue they are all taxes, just like the LOTTERY! Works every time.
Those Republicans just love getting the dough from the DUPES in the pro-life crowd! They fess up the dough almost as fast as Obama supporters!



Do you understand that people will never, ever, EVER vote for a raise in taxes? Even if it means no more roads, or an unarmed army, or dead old people, or whatever?

A politician embracing a tax embraces the end of his political career. Period.

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Frenchfry

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2012, 01:52:11 AM »

It’s very clear now that the immediate consequence of the Supreme Court’s health care ruling will be another Pavlovian “tax!” chant from the GOP.

We’ve run through how this is only true in a narrow technical sense. A perfectly executed mandate — like an ideal carbon or cigarette tax — would raise $0. The goal is to change behavior not to generate revenue. This is not, in spirit, the sort of “tax increase” Republicans want you to believe it is, and to the extent they’re right, well then Mitt Romney raised the exact same tax in Massachusetts.

But whatever you want to call it — tax, fee, penalty, incentive, Robert — even though it does raise some money, the key is that it will snag relatively few people. Citing CBO, the Court noted “it is estimated that four million people each year will choose to pay the IRS rather than buy insurance. … It suggests instead that the shared responsibility payment merely imposes a tax citizens may lawfully choose to pay in lieu of buying health insurance.”

Four million. A bit more than one percent of the population. And remember, these are people who are able to afford insurance but choose not to, knowing they’ll eventually need to avail themselves of the health care system. It’s actually fair to think of it as a free-rider penalty. That’s harder to explain than simply screaming “tax,” but it’s true, and much less politically contentious.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2012/06/who_pays.php
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Frenchfry

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2012, 02:11:22 AM »

An interesting take on thr Supreme Court's decision and Justice Roberts.....

Before you look to do harm to Chief Justice Roberts or his family, it’s important that you think carefully about the meaning – the true nature — of his ruling on Obama-care. The Left will shout that they won, that Obama-care was upheld and all the rest. Let them.

It will be a short-lived celebration.

Here’s what really occurred — payback. Yes, payback for Obama’s numerous, ill-advised and childish insults directed toward SCOTUS.



Chief Justice Roberts actually ruled the mandate, relative to the commerce clause, was unconstitutional. That’s how the Democrats got Obama-care going in the first place. This is critical. His ruling means Congress can’t compel American citizens to purchase anything. Ever. The notion is now officially and forever, unconstitutional. As it should be.

Next, he stated that, because Congress doesn’t have the ability to mandate, it must, to fund Obama-care, rely on its power to tax. Therefore, the mechanism that funds Obama-care is a tax. This is also critical. Recall back during the initial Obama-care battles, the Democrats called it a penalty, Republicans called it a tax. Democrats consistently soft sold it as a penalty. It went to vote as a penalty. Obama declared endlessly, that it was not a tax, it was a penalty. But when the Democrats argued in front of the Supreme Court, they said ‘hey, a penalty or a tax, either way’. So, Roberts gave them a tax. It is now the official law of the land — beyond word-play and silly shenanigans. Obama-care is funded by tax dollars. Democrats now must defend a tax increase to justify the Obama-care law.

Finally, he struck down as unconstitutional, the Obama-care idea that the federal government can bully states into complying by yanking their existing medicaid funding. Liberals, through Obama-care, basically said to the states — ‘comply with Obama-care or we will stop existing funding.’ Roberts ruled that is a no-no. If a state takes the money, fine, the Feds can tell the state how to run a program, but if the state refuses money, the federal government can’t penalize the state by yanking other funding. Therefore, a state can decline to participate in Obama-care without penalty. This is obviously a serious problem. Are we going to have 10, 12, 25 states not participating in “national” health-care? Suddenly, it’s not national, is it?

Ultimately, Roberts supported states rights by limiting the federal government’s coercive abilities. He ruled that the government can not force the people to purchase products or services under the commerce clause and he forced liberals to have to come clean and admit that Obama-care is funded by tax increases.

Although he didn’t guarantee Romney a win, he certainly did more than his part and should be applauded.

And he did this without creating a civil war or having bricks thrown threw his windshield. Oh, and he’ll be home in time for dinner.

Brilliant.

From the IJ Independent Journal Review.....
I saw that plastered all over the 'net....such as here:
Quote
This article, written by I.M. Citizen, gives a much different perspective of Justice Robert’s decision. Comment below and let us know what you think. Also check out I.M. Citizen’s blog – quite interesting. I.M. Citizen: Before you look to do harm to Chief Justice Roberts or his family, it’s important that you think carefully about the meaning – the true nature — of his ruling on Obama-care. The Left will shout that they won, that Obama-care was upheld and all the rest. Let them. It will be a short-lived celebration. Here’s what really occurred — payback. Yes, payback for Obama’s numerous, ill-advised and childish insults directed toward SCOTUS. Chief Justice Roberts actually ruled the mandate, relative to the commerce clause, was unconstitutional. That’s how the Democrats got Obama-care going in the first place. This is critical. His ruling means Congress can’t compel American citizens to purchase anything. Ever. The notion is now officially and forever, unconstitutional. As it should be. Next, he stated that, because Congress doesn’t have the ability to mandate, it must, to fund Obama-care, rely on its power to tax. Therefore, the mechanism that funds Obama-care is a tax. This is also critical. Recall back during the initial Obama-care battles, the Democrats called it a penalty, Republicans called it a tax. Democrats consistently soft sold it as a penalty. It went to vote as a penalty. Obama declared endlessly, that it was not a tax, it was a penalty. But when the Democrats argued in front of the Supreme Court, they said ‘hey, a penalty or a tax, either way’. So, Roberts gave them a tax. It is now the official law of the land — beyond word-play and silly shenanigans. Obama-care is funded by tax dollars. Democrats now must defend a tax increase to justify the Obama-care law. Finally, he struck down as unconstitutional, the Obama-care idea that the federal government can bully states into complying by yanking their existing medicaid funding. Liberals, through Obama-care, basically said to the states — ‘comply with Obama-care or we will stop existing funding.’ Roberts ruled that is a no-no. If a state takes the money, fine, the Feds can tell the state how to run a program, but if the state refuses money, the federal government can’t penalize the state by yanking other funding. Therefore, a state can decline to participate in Obama-care without penalty. This is obviously a serious problem. Are we going to have 10, 12, 25 states not participating in “national” health-care? Suddenly, it’s not national, is it? Ultimately, Roberts supported states rights by limiting the federal government’s coercive abilities. He ruled that the government can not force the people to purchase products or services under the commerce clause and he forced liberals to have to come clean and admit that Obama-care is funded by tax increases. Although he didn’t guarantee Romney a win, he certainly did more than his part and should be applauded. And he did this without creating a civil war or having bricks thrown threw his windshield. Oh, and he’ll be home in time for dinner. Brilliant.
http://www.trapshooters.com/noframes/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=293767&Messages=8
And here:
http://teapartyorg.ning.com/profiles/blogs/judge-roberts-did-us-a-favor?xg_source=activity
I just love that the author used "threw" instead of "through"....it's much easier to dismiss opinions from that type of person...an airhead rightie.
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Professor H

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2012, 07:55:56 AM »

You know three people on medicaid? I find it hard to believe that someone like you would acknowledge knowing someone on medicaid, let alone actually knowing them.

You know, I'm tired of arguing with people who can't even do a little homework on a subject, and instead, attack the person that is trying to give them information. Why don't you and the "Professor" go back and read the link Old Salt posted in here.

At least HE had the decency to try and educate himself. 8*
You can play with numbers and figures - but the tax phases in (after the election)...  and affects the poor and lower middle class regardless.   
 
______________________________________________________________
,,,, However, the penalty can never be more than the cost of a "Bronze" heath insurance plan purchased through one of the state "exchanges" that will be created as part of Obamacare. The CBO estimates that these policies will cost $4,500-$5,000 per person and $12,000-$12,500 per family in 2016, with the costs rising thereafter.

So, basically, you're looking at penalties of approximately the following at the following income levels:
Less than $9,500 income = $0
$9,500 - $37,000 income = $695
$50,000 income = $1,000
$75,000 income = $1,600
$100,000 income = $2,250
$125,000 income = $2,900
$150,000 income = $3,500
$175,000 income = $4,100
$200,000 income = $4,700
Over $200,000 = The cost of a "bronze" health-insurance plan

The IRS will collect the penalty-tax, a fact that will no doubt further enrage those who hate Obamacare.
But here's some more good news for those folks:
The IRS will not have the power to charge you criminally or seize your assets if you refuse to pay. The IRS will only have the ability to sue you. And the most the IRS can collect from you if it wins the suit is 2X the amount you owe. So if you want to thumb your nose at the penalty-tax, the IRS won't be able to do as much to you as they could if you refused to pay, say, income tax.
By the way, the following folks will be exempt from the penalty-tax:
Those who make less than $9,500
Employees whose employers only offer plans that cost more than 8% of the employee's income
Those with "hardships"
Members of Indian tribes
Members of certain religions that don't pay Social Security tax, such as Amish, Hutterites, or Mennonites
And, of course, Obamacare isn't free. So, whether you pay the penalty or not, you're going to have to pay a lot of other taxes to pay for it.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-is-the-obamacare-penalty-tax-2012-7#ixzz1zeYjtV00
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Baby Hitler

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #101 on: July 04, 2012, 11:45:49 AM »

Romney says that if elected he promises to repeal and replace Obamacare.

What is he going to replace it with? Romneycare? AKA what Massachusetts has now?

Isn't that what Obamacare is based on?

Can anyone tell me the difference between Romneycare and Obamacare?

Evidently Romneycare has been quite the success.


BOSTON -- Massachusetts has the nation's highest rate of residents with health insurance. Visits to emergency rooms are beginning to ease. More residents are getting cancer screenings and more women are making prenatal doctors' visits.

Still, one of the biggest challenges for the state lies ahead: reining in spiraling costs.

Six years after Gov. Mitt Romney signed the nation's most ambitious health care law - one that would lay the groundwork for his presidential opponent's national version - supporters say the Massachusetts law holds promise for the long-term success of Barack Obama's plan.

Like the federal law it inspired, the Massachusetts law has multiple goals, among them expanding the number of insured residents, reducing emergency room visits, penalizing those who can afford coverage but opt to remain uninsured, and requiring employers to offer coverage or pay a fine.

Supporters of the Massachusetts experiment are quick to point out its successes.

An additional 400,000 individuals have gained insurance since 2006, meaning about 98 percent of residents have coverage.

A recent study by the Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts Foundation found that between 2006 and 2010, the use of emergency rooms for non-emergency reasons fell nearly 4 percent. That was a key goal of the law, since using emergency rooms for routine care is far more expensive than visiting a doctor.

State health officials also point to what they say are increases in mammograms, colon cancer screenings and prenatal care visits and a 150,000-person reduction in the number of smokers after the state expanded coverage for smoking cessation programs.

"Since Gov. Romney signed health care reform here in Massachusetts, more private companies are offering health care to their employees, fewer people are getting primary care in an expensive emergency room setting, and hundreds of thousands of our friends and neighbors have access to care,
" said Gov. Deval Patrick, a Democrat and co-chairman of Obama's re-election committee.

Another reason the law remains popular may be that so many Massachusetts residents receive insurance through work and have been largely untouched by its penalties. The Blue Cross Blue Shield study found 68 percent of non-elderly adults received coverage through their employers in 2010, up from about 64 percent in 2006.

The study also found no evidence to support one fear lawmakers had when they approved the law - that employers or workers might drop coverage because of the availability of public coverage.

Another indication of the law's acceptance in Massachusetts is the reduction in the number of those assessed a tax penalty for failing to have insurance despite being able to afford it. In 2010, 44,000 Massachusetts tax filers were assessed the penalty under the "individual mandate." That's a drop from the 67,000 people required to pay the penalty in 2007, the first year it was assessed.

In 2010, the highest penalty was $93 a month, or $1,116 a year. In 2012, the highest penalty increased to $105 a month, or $1,260 a year.

Massachusetts is the only state with an individual mandate, although the Supreme Court last week upheld the constitutionality of a similar mandate in the federal law.

Despite the penalty, most polls place support for the initiative at more than 60 percent, about double the approval rate for the federal health care law.


Supporters say there's a lesson there too. The more people begin to understand the benefits of the federal law, they say, the more support for the federal law should increase.

"The first lesson is that you can meet the goals we set out in Massachusetts, you can cover the majority of the uninsured and fix the broken market" for health care, said Jonathan Gruber, who helped craft both the state law and the federal law as an adviser to Romney and Obama.

"And you can do so with broad public support," Gruber said. "Based on what we've seen in Massachusetts, people like this."

There are other indications of improving access to care in Massachusetts since the law was approved in 2006.

Residents are more likely to have a place they usually go when they are sick or need advice (up 4.7 percent), more likely to have had a preventive care visit (up 5.9 percent), more likely to have had multiple doctor visits (up 5 percent) and more likely to have had a dental visit (up 5 percent), the Blue Cross Blue Shield report found.

The charge that the 2006 law has been a "budget-buster" in Massachusetts has also been challenged.

A recent study by the business-backed Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation found that during the five full fiscal years since it was implemented, the law has cost the state an additional $91 million a year after federal reimbursements - well within initial projections.

The idea of exporting Massachusetts' law to the rest of the nation has its critics too.

Josh Archambault, health care policy director for the Pioneer Institute, a conservative-leaning Boston-based think tank, said a narrower approach would be better.

"There are many unintended consequences when Washington tries to design a policy that meets the very different needs of states as diverse as Massachusetts and, say, New Mexico," he said. "We need some specific federal actions to increase access to affordable health care, but the (federal law) went too far."

There's also at least one big cautionary note: Massachusetts still struggles to slow the spiraling cost of health care for residents.

This year both the Massachusetts House and Senate have approved bills aimed at trimming projected health care costs in the state by $150 billion to $160 billion over the next 15 years. A committee is hoping to iron out the differences between the two bills before the end of the formal session July 31.

Gruber said that while expanding coverage is easier than controlling costs, the cost question shouldn't be used as a reason not to expand coverage.

Gruber, who wrote a comic book called "Health Care Reform: What It Is, Why It's Necessary, How It Works" to help explain the federal law, likened health care expansion to a baby in its crib.

"We're going to have to crawl before we can walk and run," he said. "To say the bill failed (because it didn't include cost controls) is to say we need to keep the baby penned up until it can run."

http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_1079.shtml
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livewire

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #102 on: July 04, 2012, 02:09:44 PM »

People who live under the poverty line will receive medicaid. People who live up to 3x's the poverty level will receive tax incentives to purchase insurance. In the first year it is implemented, a person having a AGI of $40,000 would pay $400.

The majority of the taxes that will be raised, will be on companies with more than 50 employees, not offering insurance, and those making more than $250,000.

I'd hardly consider those people poor and homeless.

$400 a month?!?  Is that correct?

So, for a husband and wife, they will be FORCED to pay $800 a month for health care that nobody knows what it covers.  That's $9,600 a year, or almost one quarter of their GROSS household gross wages!!

$800 is a mortgage payment, for a lot of people.  I know of very few people who can afford that.

Exactly what do we get for that $400 per person??

No deductible?
Free prescriptions?
Unlimited hospital stays?
Free doctors visits?

I doubt it.
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Baby Hitler

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2012, 06:35:09 PM »

$400 a month?!?  Is that correct?

So, for a husband and wife, they will be FORCED to pay $800 a month for health care that nobody knows what it covers.  That's $9,600 a year, or almost one quarter of their GROSS household gross wages!!

$800 is a mortgage payment, for a lot of people.  I know of very few people who can afford that.

Exactly what do we get for that $400 per person??

No deductible?
Free prescriptions?
Unlimited hospital stays?
Free doctors visits?

I doubt it.
Like I told Professor H and SideCarFlip, you'd do yourself a world of good educating yourself.

Old Salt provided a link that you should definitely read. I suggest that one, because it has a conservative slant, so you'll be more at ease reading it than you would a liberal one.

And no, that would be $400 a YEAR. Not a MONTH. And that doesn't give you anything, that's what you pay if you refuse to get insurance of your own.

Why do you right wingers refuse to go and look up the information yourself? Why must you wait for someone else to go do it for you? Are you really all that lazy? Or do you just prefer to remain misinformed so you can make up BS stories about how this is going to hurt you?

My god you all act like 2 year olds. Grow up will you and EDUCATE YOURSELF!!!!!
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Baby Hitler

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Re: Breaking News: Supreme Court Upholds Health-Care Individual Mandate
« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2012, 06:47:25 PM »

http://atr.org/full-list-obamacare-tax-hikes-a6996

There's the link. Now if you want to discuss what's going to happen after you read it, that's fine by me.

But PLEASE educate yourself first. Repeatedly asking stupid questions and making ridiculous statements isn't going to help anyone.
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