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[livewire]

The sick and dying are not the ones to take faith from, as it takes time to readjust through a crisis of faith.

In reality, many sick people DO lose faith, as they pray and pray and nothing happens. So, could a sick person come to a forum where counterpoints to their faith are stated, which can cause them to doubt? Yes. But it's their choice not to read it my posts.

It's only creating doubt in ideas that build up false hope that leads to even greater sorrow in the end.

Contradicting yourself, I see.

More proof that you don't know what you're talking about.

[MonroeMonkey]

Contradicting yourself, I see.

More proof that you don't know what you're talking about.

You've not understood me.

Point was, I don't go up to the sick, in person, and bring up arguments that would make them question their erroneous beliefs. BUT this is a forum designed to discuss and debate religious beliefs. Could a sick person be here reading? Yes. But, again, they don't have to read my posts.

[LessGovernment]

Why not?  How about a little Sunday Sermon from LessGovernment for y'all(or anyone who wants to read it) 

I second livewire's sentiments, "you don't know what you're talking about."

Using collective statements and blind generalities only admit that he has his bias, and that he has reached a PERSONAL conclusion - yet - his assertions that God doesn't exist and prayers to Jesus(in the name of Jesus) never work; are severely unproven, and sadly, are destined to be answered upon the day he draws his last breath - just as ours will be!.

Of course, Xerxes thinks my statements about the final/any judgement that may occur is a THREAT to "become a Christian or else" - which it is not - it is but my personal conclusion that what the Bible says is true when believing one is made up of a body/soul/spirit.

Xerxes real problem in "debating"(although I will grant he is "discussing") is that he cannot LEAD anyone through stringing thoughts together towards his viewpoint with any admirable degree of credibility.  It seems I have accomplished what I indirectly set out to do, which was discredit his knee-jerk claims about the non-credulity of the creation account/flood of Noah's day/deity of Jesus - what he has done is VOLUNTEERED to us his outright attitude of hatred/bitterness which is not one born of critical thinking, good analysis, credible conclusions, or worthy citations that would cause anyone to doubt that mankind has been held in bondage like unthinking morons to a story of an invisible God and a fairy tale about a risen Savior for nearly 2000 years.

Now that he has given us his personal story, it tells us even more about why he stays this course perhaps; but seemingly, he is young and immature - and - professing great intellect and self-education in attempting to place himself in a position of one having (educational)"authority" on such matters.  I will however, continue to treat him like the big boy he thinks he is since he has gone on the offensive to mock Christianity; regardless if he may not be grateful to those who tried too offer what they could in the name of "comfort" while his family suffered through that cancer episode.

I had a whole church gasp in awe when my pastor announced my cancer to the congregation - we had four awesome kids, and I was considered "young" at 36.  Either way, if they prayed, I said thank you; but I told all who asked - "God has a written script for my life, I can only go through the motions". 

At this point, quickly though, I think it is fitting to point out that I believe everyone will be visited with a harsh/realistic/intimate and personally hard-hitting understanding/WARNING of their own mortality authored by the Creator Himself - a conscious day of questioning at the crossroads so to speak - where, the Creator will be asking them "do I exist?  do you even want to know me at all?"; and He will discern their answer in their heart(not empty verbal outbursts like "show yourself you *expletive*" like they do in Hollywood movies), and the person's life may or may not change course from there. 

I remember hearing David Barton from Wallbuilders once mention that in a courtroom in the mid-19th Century, that if a person was sentenced to death for their crime, the attorneys would try to lead them to the Lord immediately after the sentence was rendered - saying something to the effect that; "you are going to meet your Maker in 10 days from now, would you like to take this opportunity to get right with Him?". 

Anyway, granted Xerxes has spent hours reading/studying/formulating/preparing/memorizing all sorts of refutations for Bible believers, but all that serves as is evidence of his bias - evidence that could only be understood by the readers of his post that he has a personal FAITH in the idea that NO God exists, whereas we have the opposite(and majority) viewpoint.

Just as God can still miraculously intervene, open doors, and spare the life(extend the longevity) of a person stricken with cancer; God likewise can pierce Xerxes own heart with the words of scripture that he searches for to put up, or the ones I post to clarify his arguments, and hopefully one day he will walk away from this nonsense - as it is a colossal waste of his time and obvious abilities to childishly post that Christians believe in something "erroneous" ad infinitum.

I think my TRUE moment of salvation/conversion came about because I was living in a false state of security professing myself to be a "born-again Christian" having prayed the prayer of empty words from a position of inquiry while lacking biblical knowledge(led to ask for salvation from counselors I thought were "cool") at a church camp when I was 14.  After carrying on like that for nearly two decades, I found myself with my family in an independent, separated, fundamentalist Baptist church in Wisconsin 12 years ago - (we ended up there essentially because my wife and I had escalating and severe domestic disputes that led her to go seek church council and marital intervention)[seemingly NEGATIVE circumstances in life brought us to a place where I got to HEAR the Word of God]

And so - after some time there, I would have to say God Himself prompted my heart asking "so, you're hearing all this stuff about me and my Son Jesus, salvation, the FREE gift of eternal life, repentance and forgiveness for your sins; DO YOU BELIEVE?"  I said "yes", prayed in my OWN words, while all ALONE; and I can guarantee you salvation/conversion took place at that moment.  Although I am highly critical of so much of modern evangelicalism and what I see in organized Christian religion today - attempts by men to make salvation a PAINLESS transition(avoiding biblical repentance) - I think my self-study and life experience(spiritual exercises like going toe-to-toe with Xerxes) grants me more credibility ABOUT whether or not salvation through Jesus Christ is fake, erroneous, non-existent, or, barbaric, deceitful, and just and exercise in psychological brainwashing of the "WEAK" as he asserts.

Suffering happens, death happens, murders and injustices happen on this planet BECAUSE it is cursed with sin - that is what God said the Earth will be like since Adam ate the fruit ... it wasn't God's fault, it wasn't Eve's fault, it wasn't the serpent's fault... the man made a CHOICE, and there were consequences for all Adam's human descendents from there on out...BUT...irrespective of that, God offers a way for man to redeem himself; to enjoy this life, and bear within himself a spiritual mechanism where they can overpower/resist their inherent temptation to sin...and ALL truly converted Christians tell the same tale, in relatable language that is easily understood - they also exhibit outwardly the laudable virtues in voluntarily subscribing to/living out the General Principles of Christianity for the limitation/buffering of much suffering, the promotion of Liberty, opportunity, and prosperity; and even second chances for those who are truly remorseful and deserved of a chance to accomplish great achievements despite having living once as though they were in total denial and ignorance that God's moral absolutes/natural laws govern this created planet and all its inhabitants!

The reality that God exists in inherent in all human beings.  Creation/conscious revelation seconds the obvious about that.  To want to raise the mantle of atheism and total rebellion against God and the good Christianity offers, and the inescapable reality that He exists and still actively governs the affairs of men during good times and bad is known as the "reprobate mind)" that God is happy to give men over to for a season or permanently, that is born out of self-centeredness.  Men simply heap that to themselves, just as they heap to themselves false Christian teachers who tell them what they want to hear and promise them health, wealth, and prosperity that never comes to pass - which likewise leads them to give up on God.

That's my sermon for today!

What's more dangerous than Xerxes outright denial full of looooong stretched conclusions and pseudo-intellectualism, is the false teachers; they actually keep people "trapped" longer in unbelief!

John MacArthur Rebukes Joel Osteen
 

[livewire]

You've not understood me.

Point was, I don't go up to the sick, in person, and bring up arguments that would make them question their erroneous beliefs. BUT this is a forum designed to discuss and debate religious beliefs. Could a sick person be here reading? Yes. But, again, they don't have to read my posts.

No, I understand you perfectly.  So do all of the other readers of this forum.  Trust me.

Their beliefs are only "erroneous" in YOUR eyes.  Not theirs.


There is nothing I hate worse, than someone who thinks their crap doesn't stink.

[MonroeMonkey]

No, I understand you perfectly.  So do all of the other readers of this forum.  Trust me.

Clearly, you don't. And you certainly don't speak for the entire 5,000 members of this forum. Save the logical fallacy, before the exception that disproves the rule of this erroneous claim makes you eat your words.

Their beliefs are only "erroneous" in YOUR eyes.  Not theirs.

That goes without saying, thus we are having such conversations. People are often awakened by such conversations. Look at what's going on in Europe and America. The nonreligious are growing everyday. Why? The same arguments I'm putting forth. I've caused a few to leave their erroneous beliefs behind. Even one is better than none, for that one can aid another in dropping their bondage to invisible and bloody tribal gods.

There is nothing I hate worse, than someone who thinks their crap doesn't stink.

I'm not surprised to see the word hate there.

When it comes to moral living, I'm probably with less sin-stains than many Christians on here, but praise God, a mere belief had cleansed their crap, and it no longer stinks.

And what you just said was nothing more than a Red Herring, when I never once made the claim I was perfect.

[livewire]

 


Have a great day, Xerxes! 

And yes, I will continue to pray for you!!! 



 

[MonroeMonkey]

Have a great day, Xerxes! 

And yes, I will continue to pray for you!!!

Save your passive aggressive prayers. I don't need them.

[MonroeMonkey]

Here's LessGov's last post in a nutshell.

1. Attack Xerxes personally, and avoid his real argument of there being no real proof of healing in the name of Jesus. And ignore the fact that thousands die everyday from cancer, etc., while being prayed for in the name of Jesus.

2. Give personal testimony of a so-called salvation/born again experience, which has no more weight than the anecdotal experience of a Mormon, Muslim, or Hindu.

3. Pat self on back.

4. Say nothing at all in relation to the lack of real evidence for healing.


Typical. Just more ad hominems and red herrings... This guy has no way of answering the arguments I present. Just saying that my argument is poor doesn't provide him with a counterpoint.

[livewire]

Save your passive aggressive prayers. I don't need them.

Okay, whatever you say.   






Just kidding!!!!  You got 'em anyways!  Like it or not!   


Believers don't need prayers as much as non-believers do.   

[MonroeMonkey]

Okay, whatever you say.   

Just kidding!!!!  You got 'em anyways!  Like it or not!   

Believers don't need prayers as much as non-believers do.   

Ok. If you must.

Oh, and pray the woman be extra sweet. Then I won't be on here as much to debate.

[MonroeMonkey]

Oh, and Less, I like Joel Osteen way more than John MacArthur.

MacArthur drips with profane pretension masked in the gospel of Jesus. I don't mind if a man is pretentious but keep it real. If you're proud admit it. I, no doubt, can be very proud.

Osteen is an in-the-closet Universalist, which is why his whole attitude is more loving than MacArthur's grim and dark attitude.

Yeah, yeah, John MacArthur, we know, we know. We're all wretched poor sinners who are totally depraved by birth, and our righteousness is pathetic; therefore, maybe we're of the lucky elect and God will work effectually to save.

Calvinism is some sick stuff. Seriously. I got wrapped up in that stuff for awhile when I believed, but the darkness of it aided in me waking up from it, ironically.

Less, I can see why you're so aggressive and militant, being John MacArthur is your preacher of choice.

[Monique]

I was at my Mom's bedside four months ago as she gasped for breath and died. She was still so young. Endometrial cancer spread throughout her body.

I'm so very sorry for your loss, J. My deepest condolences.

[MonroeMonkey]

I'm so very sorry for your loss, J. My deepest condolences.

Thanks. She was a beautiful woman.

[tnweasel]

not that I want to get too deep into this argument.....we sat with our mother for nine months while she waited to die with cervical cancer.....she never lost her faith in God's hand to her life...... she died with God's grace and as I deal with my own diagnosis of cancer....I know that I won't be praying for healing.....though it would be nice.... I pray that God gives my husband and children the strength to deal with life as we know it..... if that helps my family get through this that's all we can ask for.....

as for the other business...... man has created for himself this mess on earth.....

[MonroeMonkey]

not that I want to get too deep into this argument.....we sat with our mother for nine months while she waited to die with cervical cancer.....she never lost her faith in God's hand to her life...... she died with God's grace and as I deal with my own diagnosis of cancer....I know that I won't be praying for healing.....though it would be nice.... I pray that God gives my husband and children the strength to deal with life as we know it..... if that helps my family get through this that's all we can ask for.....

Just accepting what is graciously seems the best way. I found a beauty in life that can only be found by going through such things. Hope the best for you and for your family.

as for the other business...... man has created for himself this mess on earth.....

I don't believe that man (Adam & Eve) created all this suffering, as it doesn't line up with reality. If we go having sex with tons of people, yeah, we can bring an STD upon ourselves. If we use drugs we can harm our bodies, etc. But most of the suffering of life wasn't caused by mankind.

Long before man was around creatures we're ripping the flesh off other creatures, as the prey shrieked and whimpered in suffering. This universe can only manifest, as it does, by eating itself. It's absurd to blame parasites and diseases on mankind.

Suffering is just a part of this marvelous reality we are a part of, and again, accepting it, as it is, is the best way. If one can surrender to reality as it is, without having to introduce concepts and story lines, then all is well as is.