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Professor H

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 05:10:21 PM »

If you want to crack down on election fraud, start here
Fix a fight, and you'll do some time in Michigan.

But fix an election? Why, that's just politics.

It is lamentable and absurd that -- as Kent County Prosecutor William Forsyth observed in his report on the scandal -- no one can be jailed for the plot hatched by state Rep. Roy Schmidt and House Speaker Jase Bolger to dupe voters about Schmidt's last-minute decision to switch from the Democratic to the Republican Party for his re-election run.

Or the quote should read - there is no law against changing political parties...

What fraud is there in changing parties - Senators and Congressmen have done it quite often to change the balance of power or become a part of the party in power.

Senator Arlen Specter's announced that he would switch from the Republican to the Democratic party  - during the Obama/Pelosi/Reed era of Obamacare.

. Vermont Senator Jim Jeffords was as a Republican until May 24, 2001. He left the party to become an independent. Jeffords' switch changed the Senate composition from 50-50 (Dick Cheney was tie-breaker as President of the Senate) to 49 Republicans, 50 Democrats, and one independent.

just a few examples
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/28/nine-party-switches-made_n_192416.htm
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Marion Berry

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Professor H

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2012, 05:21:20 PM »

New voter ID laws could impact millions, study says
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - New laws in 10 states requiring voters to show photo identification will make it more difficult for millions of Americans to cast ballots and likely will drive down turnout among minorities, the poor and elderly, a study said Wednesday.

The Brennan Center for Justice at New York University Law School said that one in 10 Americans lack the necessary government-issued photo IDs that now are required in Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Wisconsin.

Most of the new laws were passed by Republican-controlled legislatures, and the voting blocs that analysts say the laws are most likely to affect typically favor Democrats.

About one-quarter of African Americans, 16 percent of Hispanics and 18 percent of Americans over age 65 do not have the type of ID that the voting laws require, the Brennan Center report said.

"These new laws will make it more difficult for millions of Americans to vote," said Larry Norton of the Brennan Center's Democracy Program. "The idea that we're forcing certain people to go through these very difficult extra hoops is antithetical to some of the founding principals of this country."

The report said that more than 10 million eligible voters live more than 10 miles from the nearest full-time state ID-issuing office. About 500,000 of them do not have access to a vehicle, and most live in rural areas with limited public transportation, the report said.

Your resource fails to cite how many of those same people have been voting prior to these changes - and thus are "AFFECTED"...    8*

You can cite facts and figures about who has ID's - but it means nothing without context.
Voter apathy keeps away more voters than any ID laws you may "think" are affecting the turnout.



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Marion Berry

But we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.
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Professor H

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2012, 05:27:08 PM »

Voter apathy — not Florida’s new voting laws — may hurt turnout in 2012 
 
BY MARC CAPUTO
MCAPUTO@MIAMIHERALD.COM

The congregation repeated every word of the Rev. Jesse Jackson as if he were administering an oath.

“Revive easy access to voting,” Jackson said recently at the 93rd Street Community Baptist Church in Miami. “And stop voter suppression.”

Yup. It’s campaign season.

Cue the talk among liberals that conservatives are trying to rob Democrats of their votes.

This year’s target: A Republican election law, House Bill 1355, which cracks down on voter registration drives and eliminates early voting on the Sunday before Election Day.

A pain? Definitely.

But voter suppression? Not really.

CHANGING TIMES

This isn’t Bull Connor siccing German shepherds on people. It’s also nothing like Florida’s Jim Crow-era constitutional provision denying former felons the right to vote in a state where more than half the prison population is black.

This is the Republican Party changing election-year rules to keep the voter-registration rolls from quickly growing more Democratic.

“I don’t see it as voter suppression,” said Daniel A Smith, a University of Florida political scientist who is studying the new law’s effects. “This is more an effort to constrain voter participation under the guise of fighting fraud.”

Smith points out that the data clearly show the elections law disproportionately affects black and Hispanic voters.

Meanwhile, partisan lines are forming over the state’s new effort to identify and remove noncitizen voters from the rolls. The state preliminarily identified 180,000 potential noncitizens — many of them black and Hispanic — but the final number of noncitizens on the voter rolls is likely to be much lower.

But there could be a more subtle problem for Democrats and President Barack Obama. It’s not so much “suppression.” It’s more like psychological “repression.”

Quite simply: Democrats have held themselves back from voting.

CASE STUDY

Consider what happened at Precinct 248, a polling station in the black neighborhood of 93rd Street Community Baptist church.

In 2008, 1,810 voters cast ballots — 83 percent of them for Obama.

In 2010, only 958 voters cast ballots — 71 percent for African-American Congressman Kendrick Meek in his failed U.S. Senate bid. That’s a drop of 47 percent.

What happened in between those two years?

Conservatives rallied. Democrats stayed home. There was no major change to “suppress” voters.

In 2006, liberal groups like the Brennan Center at New York University raised the specter of widespread voter disenfranchisement over a voter ID law that disproportionately affected minorities and young people. Those voters went on to flock to the polls and sweep the first black president into office.

Now, Democrats point out that, since HB 1355 passed May 2011, 81,000 fewer people registered to vote when compared to a comparable period in the 2008 election cycle.

Here’s what they’re not saying: The Democrats lost voters between 2008 and 2010, hemorrhaging 91,000 people. Again, that was before any new voter law was passed.

Also, the major voter-registration group ACORN disbanded, leaving the registration work up to smaller, third-party groups that now find it tougher to do their work because Republicans have moved the goal posts.

Regardless of those efforts. Democrats have a major edge. They have 443,000 more active voters than Republicans in a state of 11.3 million active voters.

If they’re excited and inspired and vote the party line, they’ll secure another term for Obama. Problem is, Obama isn’t — and perhaps can’t — offer the same type of inspiration he did in 2008. Unofficial surrogates like Jackson, who in Miami mentioned the racial riots and “martyrdom” of blacks far more than the word “hope,” aren’t broadcasting much of a positive message, either.

“One thing worse than slavery is to adjust to it,” Jackson said, acknowledging that voter apathy is a problem.

But so is spreading a negative message about “voter suppression.” Sure, it can fire up some voters, but it can leave others at home.

The message also conflicts with the one delivered by another black leader, Miami-Dade Supervisor of Elections Penelope Townsley, who spoke a few moments before Jackson.

“Voting,” she said, “has never been easier.”


Neither has delivering rhetoric from a pulpit.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/13/2797893/voter-apathy-not-floridas-new.html#storylink=cpy
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Marion Berry

But we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.
Nancy Pelosi

ducksoup

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2012, 05:48:29 PM »

Prof.  Would you whistle the same tune if Michigan eliminated a few hundred thousand Republican’s from the voter roles for pseudo reasons? Would you still say that it is fine because many are apathetic and don’t vote?  Would you feel it peachy that the people on the list have to go and PROOVE that they are legal to vote, unlike the rest that do not have to?

Many from the Florida purge did show that they were legal, and many have not, yet few were proved to be illegitimate.  I am all for finding the illegal ones and THEN eliminating them, but gosh, how can dumping huge numbers primarily because of where they live and hoping to catch a couple be right?
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Professor H

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2012, 07:45:00 PM »

Prof.  Would you whistle the same tune if Michigan eliminated a few hundred thousand Republican’s from the voter roles for pseudo reasons? Would you still say that it is fine because many are apathetic and don’t vote?  Would you feel it peachy that the people on the list have to go and PROOVE that they are legal to vote, unlike the rest that do not have to?

Many from the Florida purge did show that they were legal, and many have not, yet few were proved to be illegitimate.  I am all for finding the illegal ones and THEN eliminating them, but gosh, how can dumping huge numbers primarily because of where they live and hoping to catch a couple be right?


Duck - Are you claiming that it's better to have illegal voters on the rolls - and let them vote, because it may cause a problem for a few?

I'm Not privy to Florida's data or reasons to make any judgments other than my previous observation.   

Its the role of our election officials to ensure the system is run properly and only those legally eligible can vote.   If Florida took a shortcut - I'm sure Eric Holder will be there to take them to Court  ;D

I've received my voter ID card for the area I live in via mail, and that method could be used in all those rural areas that some claim people are being denied access.

Examples to the extreme can always be given, but generally most people here legally have had someone in their circle of friends that have a vehicle that could be used to make a trip to the big city where the various State ID offices are (Most of which will also register for voting)

People are willing to go the extra for things they are motivated by - as I'm amazed how many on limited incomes still smoke/drink.   If they weren't apathetic to voting - they would find the means to get to their local government offices and register.   

These laws didn't stop those same people from registering and voting in the past - so why the claim that they are being stopped now only based on the fact they are poor?   No one is willing to accept this point - or dispute it with facts.
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Marion Berry

But we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.
Nancy Pelosi

ducksoup

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2012, 07:55:49 PM »

Duck - Are you claiming that it's better to have illegal voters on the rolls - and let them vote, because it may cause a problem for a few?

I'm Not privy to Florida's data or reasons to make any judgments other than my previous observation.   

Its the role of our election officials to ensure the system is run properly and only those legally eligible can vote.   If Florida took a shortcut - I'm sure Eric Holder will be there to take them to Court  ;D

I've received my voter ID card for the area I live in via mail, and that method could be used in all those rural areas that some claim people are being denied access.

Examples to the extreme can always be given, but generally most people here legally have had someone in their circle of friends that have a vehicle that could be used to make a trip to the big city where the various State ID offices are (Most of which will also register for voting)

People are willing to go the extra for things they are motivated by - as I'm amazed how many on limited incomes still smoke/drink.   If they weren't apathetic to voting - they would find the means to get to their local government offices and register.   

These laws didn't stop those same people from registering and voting in the past - so why the claim that they are being stopped now only based on the fact they are poor?   No one is willing to accept this point - or dispute it with facts.


Why do you need to be privy to Florida data when it is in the news so much?   Does that mean that because you don’t know then it is fine to take people off the roles that should not be?

I am unsure what you argued but I think it might have been about voter state issue photo ID.  The reason I can think is that the argument is that you should have had one, too bad ta ta.  Many people are having the problem of no birth certificate still.  Aside from that the requirement is still you must purchase a birth certificate, then purchase a photo ID from the state.  Something that takes time and money.

You also did not answer if you would be fine with a few hundred thousand Republican’s from Michigan being purged and have to prove that they are legal to vote.  You okay with that?

As for your first question, re read what I said.


Prof.  Would you whistle the same tune if Michigan eliminated a few hundred thousand Republican’s from the voter roles for pseudo reasons? Would you still say that it is fine because many are apathetic and don’t vote?  Would you feel it peachy that the people on the list have to go and PROOVE that they are legal to vote, unlike the rest that do not have to?

Many from the Florida purge did show that they were legal, and many have not, yet few were proved to be illegitimate. I am all for finding the illegal ones and THEN eliminating them, but gosh, how can dumping huge numbers primarily because of where they live and hoping to catch a couple be right?

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Professor H

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2012, 11:51:18 PM »


Why do you need to be privy to Florida data when it is in the news so much?   Does that mean that because you don’t know then it is fine to take people off the roles that should not be?

I am unsure what you argued but I think it might have been about voter state issue photo ID.  The reason I can think is that the argument is that you should have had one, too bad ta ta.  Many people are having the problem of no birth certificate still.  Aside from that the requirement is still you must purchase a birth certificate, then purchase a photo ID from the state.  Something that takes time and money.

You also did not answer if you would be fine with a few hundred thousand Republican’s from Michigan being purged and have to prove that they are legal to vote.  You okay with that?

As for your first question, re read what I said.


Probably not that far apart - just hard to keep the thread of illegals and those who don't have ID for whatever reasons apart.

I'm not sure why Florida decided to redo their registration roles - You and others have made claims of prejudice, yet also recognizing there are people registered that shouldn't be.   If you don't re-check - how do you fix it?

I wouldn't have a problem with Michigan starting over and making everyone (R, D or I) having to go through the modern process of establishing citizenship for that "right" to vote. 

Previous threads have shown that you can obtain the ID for registration purpose at little or no cost (here in Michigan)

Time and effort - you hit the nail on the head.
Some people don't put in time and effort to register to vote, yet complain the new (in some states) process is unfair. 

Did they vote prior to the changes?  The answer to that determines if the problem is access or apathy.

Access issues can be addressed, and should be if that is identified as a problem.

Voting is a privilege, no one said it was without time and effort to first establish yourself as a registered voter.   After that initial registration, those who are unable to make the trip to the polls - can vote via Absentee Ballot using the US Mail system...   
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Marion Berry

But we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.
Nancy Pelosi

Frenchfry

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2012, 11:17:55 AM »

Or the quote should read - there is no law against changing political parties...
But the author said:
Start by making it a crime to suborn someone to fraudulently file to run for an office. In the case of Schmidt and Bolger, it's pretty clear they knew their fake candidate was lying about where he lived, and that he was ineligible to run. You ought to be subject to prosecution if you knowingly encourage someone to falsify candidate filings.

The Legislature should also outlaw the practice of using financial incentives to get someone to run for office. This is tricky, because you obviously can't prevent someone from contributing to a candidate's campaign. But payments outside the auspices of campaign finance look like bribes, and certainly are intended that way. You can't pay someone to vote a certain way; you shouldn't be able to use money to get someone to run.

Michigan could also consider forcing incumbents to file earlier than challengers, to prevent the kind of deception in which Schmidt indulged. It already works that way for judges; challengers know nearly a month in advance whether incumbents are going to seek re-election, so there's more time for legitimate filings from challengers no matter what the incumbents do. It's worth considering a similar set up for all public officials.

If Secretary of State Johnson is really concerned about election integrity, she'll get a package of bills together to address the real shams that happen all the time with candidate filings.

And she'll help make what Schmidt and Bolger did into what anyone with two eyes knows it should be: a crime.
Your resource fails to cite how many of those same people have been voting prior to these changes - and thus are "AFFECTED"...    8*

You can cite facts and figures about who has ID's - but it means nothing without context.
Voter apathy keeps away more voters than any ID laws you may "think" are affecting the turnout.
Voter apathy — not Florida’s new voting laws — may hurt turnout in 2012 
 
This is the Republican Party changing election-year rules to keep the voter-registration rolls from quickly growing more Democratic.
Voter apathy has NOTHING to do with VOTER FRAUD....which is practically a non-issue anyway...but the admission in your quote was interesting and proves the point that ELECTION FRAUD is very real.
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Frenchfry

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2012, 01:05:47 PM »

Michigan House Democrats target election fraud

Lansing — In the wake of a failed attempt to plant a fake Democrat in a Grand Rapids legislative race, House Democrats are proposing a series of reforms to deter last-minute party switches in the future.

The minority party is drafting a package of bills that includes increasing fines for election fraud from $1,000 to $10,000, forcing candidates who switch parties to return donated funds and requiring candidates to file their paperwork to run for public office in person.

The bills are in direct response to state Rep. Roy Schmidt's eleventh hour defection to the Republican Party in May and recruitment of a 22-year-old family friend to be his fake Democratic opponent — at the urging and direction of GOP House Speaker Jase Bolger, R-Marshall.
More here:
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120726/POLITICS02/207260474/1361/Michigan-House-Democrats-target-election-fraud
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Professor H

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2012, 01:29:55 PM »

Voter apathy has NOTHING to do with VOTER FRAUD....which is practically a non-issue anyway...but the admission in your quote was interesting and proves the point that ELECTION FRAUD is very real.

Election fraud and Voter Fraud ...   Fraud is Fraud.   You claim we should fight one, but not the other?

Was there dirty politics in the party switch - yes,
just as there was in the National level switches I cited of  Arlen Specter's and Jim Jeffords, 
but they switched to the Democrat side so I'm sure that's all you need to know for approval of those dirty political switches.

The article I cited - gave examples of how Apathy is affecting the current political turnout in one precinct in Florida.   -  those who voted in 2008 aren't turning out to vote in 2010/12...

You forgot the message from the Supervisor of Elections
The message also conflicts with the one delivered by another black leader, Miami-Dade Supervisor of Elections Penelope Townsley, who spoke a few moments before Jackson.

“Voting,” she said, “has never been easier.”
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Marion Berry

But we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.
Nancy Pelosi

Professor H

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2012, 01:32:41 PM »

Absentee-ballot Fraud = Voter Fraud  8)


Miami-Dade police launches absentee-ballot fraud probe

Miami-Dade law-enforcement authorities have launched an investigation into potential absentee-ballot fraud connected to next month’s primary election.

Rumors swirled late Wednesday that two women were being questioned by police after being caught with a bundle of absentee ballots in Hialeah, a political hotbed where many elderly residents prefer to vote by mail. But few details were available from police and prosecutors.

State Attorney Katherine Fernández Rundle, herself on the Aug. 14 ballot, issued a statement urging voters to take special care with their ballots. Her statement, regarding “an ongoing investigation of individuals collecting or handling absentee ballots,” noted a county ordinance makes it a misdemeanor for anyone to pick up or return more than two absentee ballots other than their own.

“All of Miami-Dade County’s voters should be very careful with their absentee ballots,” Rundle said. “The ordinance contains very specific language on how absentee ballots are now to be handled.”

The target of the investigation, by the Miami-Dade police public corruption unit, is unclear.

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/07/miami-dade-police-launches-absentee-ballot-fraud-probe.html#storylink=cpy
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Marion Berry

But we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.
Nancy Pelosi

Frenchfry

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2012, 01:52:19 PM »

Election fraud and Voter Fraud ...   Fraud is Fraud.   You claim we should fight one, but not the other?
The pole tax scheme is being perpetrated by the Republicans...and it appears a Republican was behind the other fraud as well.

Was there dirty politics in the party switch - yes,
just as there was in the National level switches I cited of  Arlen Specter's and Jim Jeffords, 
but they switched to the Democrat side so I'm sure that's all you need to know for approval of those dirty political switches.

The article I cited - gave examples of how Apathy is affecting the current political turnout in one precinct in Florida.   -  those who voted in 2008 aren't turning out to vote in 2010/12...
Sorry but apathy isn't fraud and has no place in the discussion.

You forgot the message from the Supervisor of Elections
The message also conflicts with the one delivered by another black leader, Miami-Dade Supervisor of Elections Penelope Townsley, who spoke a few moments before Jackson.

“Voting,” she said, “has never been easier.”
Good luck with your touting an opinion based on race stuff.
Absentee-ballot Fraud = Voter Fraud  8)


Miami-Dade police launches absentee-ballot fraud probe

Miami-Dade law-enforcement authorities have launched an investigation into potential absentee-ballot fraud connected to next month’s primary election.

Rumors swirled late Wednesday that two women were being questioned by police after being caught with a bundle of absentee ballots in Hialeah, a political hotbed where many elderly residents prefer to vote by mail. But few details were available from police and prosecutors.

State Attorney Katherine Fernández Rundle, herself on the Aug. 14 ballot, issued a statement urging voters to take special care with their ballots. Her statement, regarding “an ongoing investigation of individuals collecting or handling absentee ballots,” noted a county ordinance makes it a misdemeanor for anyone to pick up or return more than two absentee ballots other than their own.

“All of Miami-Dade County’s voters should be very careful with their absentee ballots,” Rundle said. “The ordinance contains very specific language on how absentee ballots are now to be handled.”

The target of the investigation, by the Miami-Dade police public corruption unit, is unclear.

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/07/miami-dade-police-launches-absentee-ballot-fraud-probe.html#storylink=cpy
Hmmm...a blog about unsubstantiated rumors....guess you're trying to drum up tin-foil hat sales.   :D
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Professor H

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2012, 03:02:31 PM »

Hmmm...a blog about unsubstantiated rumors....guess you're trying to drum up tin-foil hat sales.   :D
I guess it must be substantiated now...   breaking news apparently...   ;D
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/25/2912765/miami-dade-authorities-launch.html

from that article -
Absentee-ballot brokers are nothing new in Miami-Dade’s rough-and-tumble political scene. Campaign operatives obtain lists of people who have requested to vote by mail, and after the ballots are mailed out, boleteros, as they are known in Spanish, call or go door-to-door to homes or voter-rich senior centers to offer assistance filling out the ballot.

I'm sure you'll have some cute little comeback - but voter fraud is abundant and apparently so well known they have a name for those who do it... 
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First, it was not a strip bar, it was an erotic club. And second, what can I say? I'm a night owl.
Marion Berry

But we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.
Nancy Pelosi

Frenchfry

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2012, 03:18:34 PM »

I guess it must be substantiated now...   breaking news apparently...
Alleged is the key word.
Perhaps you could tell me which proposal targets absentee ballot fraud?
I think you'll find the answer is none.
The voter ID law is nothing more than a poll tax intended to disenfranchise.
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WARNING! Reading Republican/Conservative/Tea Party comments will lower your intelligence quotient!

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