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excelsior

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #225 on: October 02, 2012, 08:12:31 AM »

Here is the part of Supreme Court ruling that addresses this issue.   No mention of it in the NPR story.


SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

CRAWFORD ET AL. v. MARION COUNTY ELECTION
BOARD ET AL.
CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR
THE SEVENTH CIRCUIT
No. 07–21. Argued January 9, 2008—Decided April 28, 2008

The relevant burdens here are those imposed on eligible voters who lack photo identification cards that comply with SEA 483.  Because Indiana’s cards are free, the inconvenience of going to the Bureau of Motor Vehicles, gathering required documents, and posing for a photograph does not qualify as a substantial burden on most voters’ right to vote, or represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting.

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Forsythia

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #226 on: October 02, 2012, 08:16:41 AM »

I understand that.  If you look at the NPR article you will see that these residents were told the id's were free but they had to actually pay for those ID's.  In addition there was the extensive wait and the fact one of the women was told she didn't have everything she needed when she actually did.
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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #227 on: October 02, 2012, 09:01:53 AM »

I understand that.  If you look at the NPR article you will see that these residents were told the id's were free but they had to actually pay for those ID's.  In addition there was the extensive wait and the fact one of the women was told she didn't have everything she needed when she actually did.

What is you point?

Government workers don't know what they are doing, and should be put in charge of nothing?

I agree with you IF that is your point.

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Frenchfry

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #228 on: October 02, 2012, 09:22:31 AM »

Here is the part of Supreme Court ruling that addresses this issue.   No mention of it in the NPR story.


SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

CRAWFORD ET AL. v. MARION COUNTY ELECTION
BOARD ET AL.
CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR
THE SEVENTH CIRCUIT
No. 07–21. Argued January 9, 2008—Decided April 28, 2008

The relevant burdens here are those imposed on eligible voters who lack photo identification cards that comply with SEA 483.  Because Indiana’s cards are free, the inconvenience of going to the Bureau of Motor Vehicles, gathering required documents, and posing for a photograph does not qualify as a substantial burden on most voters’ right to vote, or represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting.
Reminds me of this:

How Right-Wingers on the Supreme Court Sold Our Democracy Down the River -- Again
The Court's right-wing majority refused to look at facts that showed how it erred in its 2010 Citizens United ruling.
June 25, 2012  | 
 
When the gavel fell in the U.S. Supreme Court’s chamber after the justices overturned Montana’s century-old ban on corporate electioneering on Monday, it drove another nail into the coffin of American democracy.

 Of course, America’s campaign finance laws have been riddled with loopholes for years. What’s new and scary is the emerging audacity and overt politicization of the Supreme Court.
 
Taken narrowly, the 5-4 ruling, American Tradition Partnership v. Bullock , affirmed the rights of corporations to participate in Montana elections by overturning a 1912 ban that top Montana political leaders and judges said was needed to keep the Big Sky State’s low-cost elections free from undue influence by wealthy interests.
 
“Montana’s arguments… were already rejected in Citizens United or fail to meaningfully distinguish the case,” the Supreme Court majority’s one-page ruling said.
 
More broadly, the Court’s right-wing majority reaffirmed the controversial 2010 ruling with impunity. By not revisiting any aspect of Citizens United , they declared that new facts upending the decision did not matter. Nor would they admit that they had erred on key points in Citizens United , or that public outcry over the ruling meant much, or that major loopholes unleashed by Citizens United – and follow-up court rulings – were relevant.
 
“Were it up to me, I would vote to… reconsider Citizens United or, at least, its application in this case,” wrote Justice Stephen Breyer, in a short dissent agreed to by justices Ginsburg, Sotomayor and Kagan. “But given the Court’s per curiam [majority] disposition, I do not see a significant possibility of reconsideration.”
 
The refusal to revisit Citizens United will likely reverberate in political circles for years.
 
Today’s biggest campaign finance loopholes—those that allow shadow groups known as super PACs that can take multi-million-dollar donations and run the nastiest political ads, all while pretending that they aren't coordinating their actions with candidates—are now going to become an anti-democratic fixture on the American political landscape.
 
What does it mean when the Court’s ruling majority cannot look at new facts objectively, cannot admit that they erred, and cannot review aspects of a recent decision despite calls to do so from the country’s best legal minds, top federal elected officials, majorities of voters asked in numerous nationwide polls, and four associate Court justices? It means, as political analyst James Fallows wrote this weekend in the Atlantic, that most reasonable observers would conclude that the United States was experiencing “a kind of long-term coup if we saw it happening anywhere else.” 
 
Who is leading this putative coup led by the Supreme Court's conservatives?
 
The answer is the Republican Party, as the beneficiary of most of 2012’s big-dollar loopholes and whose officials have filed most of the lawsuits that have resulted in the ongoing deregulation of campaign finance laws. Also winning big are a handful of the richest Americans, typically old men whose multi-million-dollar political gifts barely dent their vast family fortunes. And it is also major corporate players, who, emboldened by Citizens United —and federal failures to enforce most campaign finance laws—have flocked to newly politicized non-profits that can spend millions on political advertising but don’t have to disclose their donors' identities.
 
Lost in the deregulatory melee are the voices of ordinary Americans.
 
“The current situation, wrought by Citizens United , is nothing short of a gross debasement of our democracy and the idea of one citizen, one vote,” said Paul S. Ryan, senior council for the Campaign Legal Center, who filed a brief urging the Court to revisit the 2010 ruling. “In theory the decision is naïve. In practice it is shameful.”
 
“The Supreme Court continues to deny reality when it comes to assessing the impact of independent spending on elections,” said Public Citizen president Robert Weissman, in a statement that typified the reaction from campaign reform advocates. “The Court is not going to overturn Citizens United , at least in the near term. It thus falls on the people to overturn the Court, through a constitutional amendment.”
 
Weissman and other amendment proponents omit another possibility: that the best way to counter a runaway Supreme Court in the short term would be electing a president that would appoint a fairer minded federal judiciary, starting at the Supreme Court. Three justices, two conservatives and one liberal, are now in their mid-70s and approaching retirement.
 
A Nation of Men, Not Laws
 
The scariest aspect of the Supreme Court’s right-wing majority is their self-satisfying radicalism. They are anything but conservative jurists -- true judicial conservatives would hold facts in higher regard than their ideological beliefs and partisan leanings.   
 
One of fundamental precepts of American democracy is that there is a difference between the "rule of law" and the "rule of men." The judicial process is based on establishing the facts in court and having judges interpret the laws in a fair-minded if not skeptical manner.
 
The problem with the Citizens United ruling, and indeed with Buckley v. Valeo , the 1976 campaign finance ruling that ushered in today’s big money-dominated elections, is that key elements of both these decisions were not based on the facts. They were based on the beliefs of justices in the majority about what they wanted the facts to be.
 
In Buckley, the Court looked at a new law passed by Congress that limited campaign donations and campaign spending. It wanted to rush out a decision well before the 1976 presidential election, but didn’t have a factual record about how the new contribution and spending limits would work, according to Burt Neuborne, who was involved in the case and is now legal director of the Brennan Center at NYU Law School.
 
So the Court asked both sides to negotiate a settlement—and that’s why that decision reads like a scholarly article, not a court case. Law professors cite Buckley as exactly what courts are not supposed to do procedurally. Yet it laid the foundation for today’s campaigns—and was the most defining campaign finance ruling until Citizens United . 
 
Buckley unleashed a political demon. It ruled that individuals could spend unlimited amounts on their own in a political campaign. The justices held that the only reason to limit such spending was to prevent corruption, but concluded that individuals could not corrupt themselves. For years, campaign consultants and election lawyers followed this logic—and the way it was applied by judges—and created fictitious political committees that were supposedly unconnected to candidates and thus exempt from regulation. Thus, monied interests came to monopolize the airwaves and stifle electoral debate.
 
Over the years, campaign finance reformers have waged a number of legal battles with loophole-embracing lawyers and have only won a few—mostly to preserve campaign contribution limits, donation disclosure laws, public financing schemes, and the long-established precedent that prevented corporations from spending freely in elections. 
 
The corporate ban fell with the 2010 Citizens United decision. In it, the Supreme Court said that corporations and unions could make unlimited donations to non-candidate political committees—so-called “independent expenditures.”
 
It also said that because these committees called themselves independent, they were independent and were exempt from regulation. And they said that independent political committees could not be corrupted, and that political corruption had to be close to bribery—and not just create an appearance of impropriety.
 
Another federal court decision that quickly followed Citizens United tied these threads together and unleashed 2012’s super PACS, in which former aids to various presidential candidates (mostly on the GOP side of the aisle) created these groups, started taking multi-million-dollar donations, and used the money for ads backing their ex-bosses.
 
These loopholes were unmasked and reported on by major media organizations. This record of multi-million-dollar gifts by donors who were then seen meeting with specific candidates, as well as the record of independent groups that ran negative ads that were a counterpoint to the candidate’s positive ads, were some of the "facts" that prompted many people—editorial boards, advocates, elected officials, and associate Supreme Court justices—to ask the Court’s majority to revisit Citizens United . 
 
When in late 2011 the Montana Supreme Court upheld its century-old ban on corporate electioneering, it was widely seen as a challenge to Citizens United —because under the Constitution’s Supremacy Clause, state courts have to follow the U.S. Supreme Court’s rulings. The Montana Supreme Court said that Montana had a unique political history, and had all kinds of legal reasons to uphold its 1912 ban on corporate electioneering.
 
Most election law scholars believed that Montana would be overruled, but they also held out hope that the U.S. Supreme Court would rehear aspects of Citizens United , because the decision’s claims that independent political committees—like super PACs—were in fact independent had proven to be false in 2012. Moreover, they held out hope that the 2010 ruling’s declarations that independent expenditure groups could not be corrupted would also be re-examined. That appeared to the very kind of conflict of interest Buckley said could be regulated—but which Citizens United said was not a problem.         
 
Two Supreme Court justices, Stephen Breyer and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, issued a short statement when the Court took the Montana case, saying they hoped their colleagues would use the case to revisit these aspects of Citizens United . A variety of legal briefs were filed arguing the same thing. Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain and Rhode Island Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse said wealthy interests were using the threat of outsized donations to super PACs to threaten elected officials—giving another real-life example of Citizen United ’s anti-democratic impact.
 
Former top American Civil Liberties Union officials, who broke with the group’s fundamentalist First Amendment stance, wrote a brief reminding Citizen United ’s main author, Justice Anthony Kennedy, of his prior decisions holding that not all corporations were treated equally for First Amendment purposes.
 
None of these arguments swayed the Court’s right-wing ideologues.   
 
“Montana’s experience, like considerable experience elsewhere since the Court’s decision in Citizens United , casts grave doubt on the Court’s supposition that independent expenditures do not corrupt or appear to do so,” Justice Breyer wrote in his dissent.
 
Campaign finance reformers pledged to keep fighting in the wake of Monday’s ruling. Many states across the country, including Montana, are looking at ballot measures calling on Congress to send a constitutional amendment to the states that would return the power to control campaign finances to Congress.
 
But there is no getting around the bottom line. The Montana ruling at the Supreme Court is a dark day for American democracy. The Court only makes campaign finance rulings periodically and often decades apart. In the meantime, the special interests and people with the deepest pockets have new power to dominate and distort all stages of the democratic process—from elections to lobbying.
 
Whether the solution is a constitutional amendment or electing a president who will not appoint ideologues to the court is an open question. What is clear is that American democracy is certainly weakened and possibly imperiled when the highest court deliberately chooses to ignore facts and consequences that impact how the public elects its representative government.     
http://www.alternet.org/story/156029/how_right-wingers_on_the_supreme_court_sold_our_democracy_down_the_river_--_again

And this:

In one of the most controversial decisions in the nation’s judicial history, the U.S. Supreme Court issued its Dred Scott v. Sandford decision on March 6, 1857, ruling that Blacks could not be citizens in the United States and were not protected by the U.S. Constitution. The Court also ruled that Congress could not prohibit slavery in federal territories. For good measure, the Court stated that the Missouri Compromise of 1820 was unconstitutional.
http://www.newsinhistory.com/blog/dred-scott-decision-supreme-court-denies-citizenship-blacks

You applaud the SCOTUS decisions all you want...but that doesn't make them just.
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Frenchfry

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #229 on: October 02, 2012, 09:24:52 AM »

 GOP's potential voter fraud scandal grows

Reports on the growing scandal involving a paid GOP consultant whose company is accused of conducting voter registration fraud in at least five key swing states.

Martin Bashir - GOP's potential voter fraud scandal grows
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Monroe Native

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #230 on: October 02, 2012, 09:26:13 AM »

You want to talk about court screw ups?

How about that Obama-care ruling?  The Govt argues it isn't a tax, and the court finds it legal under the power to tax.

LOL!

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Frenchfry

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #231 on: October 02, 2012, 09:46:28 AM »

You want to talk about court screw ups?

How about that Obama-care ruling?  The Govt argues it isn't a tax, and the court finds it legal under the power to tax.

LOL!
The Most Conservative Supreme Court

After Chief Justice John Roberts Jr. sided with the four moderate liberal members of the Supreme Court to uphold the Affordable Care Act, right-wing pundits called him a traitor and left-wing pundits called him a statesman. Americans who don’t generally pay attention to court decisions, but who tuned in for the health-care ruling, would therefore be excused for assuming that Chief Justice Roberts is no longer an arch-conservative but a centrist who’s pulled the court to an ideological middle-ground.

But with the new term beginning on Monday, it’s worth dispelling the gauzy moderate aura that the A.C.A. decision bestowed upon him and the court.

Lee Epstein and Andrew Martin, preeminent legal scholars who study the court’s results from the cool perspective of political science, say the last term was little different from the previous six. The Roberts court continued as the most conservative since the anti-New Deal court of the 1930s.

John Roberts’ vote in the health-care case was the sole time he joined the court’s more liberal justices in any 5-4 decisions—not just in the 15 of last term, but in the 117 since he became chief justice in 2005. And his majority opinion was filled with disdainful language, what the scholar Pam Karlan in her forthcoming foreword to the Harvard Law Review’s important Supreme Court issue calls “a pervasive disrespect for, and exasperation with, Congress.”

That “dismissive treatment,” she explains, is an expression of “lost confidence” in voters. They are also the court’s constituents and they notably reciprocate the disrespect: the court’s historically low standing in public opinion polls dropped even further after the health-care ruling, because, most people said, the justices on both sides had expressed political, not judicial, choices.

Professors Epstein and Martin have also brought up to date their annual analysis of the justices’ ideologies—their relative conservatism or liberalism based on their voting records. The news is that Justice Samuel Alito Jr. moved even farther to the right.

It’s no surprise that the upcoming presidential election could be very significant for the court. But Epstein-Martin’s ideology analysis allows us to measure how different it would likely be if Mitt Romney gets to replace Ruth Bader Ginsburg compared with President Obama replacing Antonin Scalia or Anthony Kennedy.  A Roberts-Alito-like replacement for Justice Ginsburg would move the court dramatically to the right. But a Kagan-Sotomayor-like replacement for Justice Scalia or Justice Kennedy would move the court to the moderate left, with the center somewhere around Justices Elena Kagan, Sonia Sotomayor, and Stephen Breyer.

As this term begins, however, the line-up’s the same as last year, and there’s every reason to expect the court to continue along its conservative path.
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/01/the-most-conservative-supreme-court/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roberts had originally intended to side with his fellow conservatives on the court and overturn the law. However, Roberts' position turned "wobbly" as he considered the implications the ruling would have on his legacy.

Roberts was a conservative and lifelong partisan Republican. … Roberts had dual goals for his tenure as chief justice – to push his own ideological agenda but also to preserve the Court’s place as a respected final arbiter of the nation’s disputes. … A complete nullification of the health care law on the eve of a presidential election would put the Court at the center of the campaign … Democrats, and perhaps Obama himself, would crusade against the Court, eroding its moral if not its legal authority. … Gradually, then with more urgency, Roberts began looking for a way out.

Roberts became increasingly uncomfortable with overturning the entire law, and instead sought out a "middle ground." He found that middle ground in arguing in his majority opinion that the individual mandate "need not be read to do more than impose a tax," thus falling within Congress' power to collect taxes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/15/john-roberts-health-care_n_1886621.html
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Frenchfry

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excelsior

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #233 on: October 02, 2012, 09:58:50 AM »

I understand that.  If you look at the NPR article you will see that these residents were told the id's were free but they had to actually pay for those ID's.  In addition there was the extensive wait and the fact one of the women was told she didn't have everything she needed when she actually did.

You must have read a different article than I did:



Pa. Voters Battle Bureaucracy Ahead Of ID Law Ruling
more at:  http://www.npr.org/2012/09/27/161826027/pa-voters-battle-bureaucracy-ahead-of-id-law-ruling

After almost two hours, Herbert's number is finally called. She's surprised when the clerk tells her she'll have to pay $13.50 to update her ID. Voter ID is supposed to be free. After NewCourtland's Brown intervenes, the clerk offers another option that is free.

Half an hour later, Mitchell is called. When the clerk asks her to smile for her photo, she says, "Smile? I've been here for more than two hours."

But within minutes, Mitchell is smiling. She's done.

"All right, you are empowered to vote," Brown tells her.

The women get back on the van and arrive at the senior center more than four hours after they were scheduled to leave. Herbert says it wasn't too bad, except she missed bingo — and lunch.
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blue2

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #234 on: October 02, 2012, 10:06:24 AM »

Can anybody say Delusional?

"LIBERAL SPIN?? You've got to be kidding me?  They're the most unbiased news source in America."
They fired Juan Williams who is a democrat and mostlyf a liberal but possess some common sense so they fired him.
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Frenchfry

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #235 on: October 02, 2012, 10:21:10 AM »


You must have read a different article than I did:



Pa. Voters Battle Bureaucracy Ahead Of ID Law Ruling
more at:  http://www.npr.org/2012/09/27/161826027/pa-voters-battle-bureaucracy-ahead-of-id-law-ruling

After almost two hours, Herbert's number is finally called. She's surprised when the clerk tells her she'll have to pay $13.50 to update her ID. Voter ID is supposed to be free. After NewCourtland's Brown intervenes, the clerk offers another option that is free.

Half an hour later, Mitchell is called. When the clerk asks her to smile for her photo, she says, "Smile? I've been here for more than two hours."

But within minutes, Mitchell is smiling. She's done.

"All right, you are empowered to vote," Brown tells her.

The women get back on the van and arrive at the senior center more than four hours after they were scheduled to leave. Herbert says it wasn't too bad, except she missed bingo — and lunch.
The documentation required to obtain an ID isn't free....plus there's a cost for transportation in the required run around...and then there are times those required proofs are just not available...at any cost.

The fact is...the Republicans are suppressing a certain segment of voters...while actively perpetrating fraud themselves.

It's truly despicable...which doesn't bode well for your character when you condone their actions.  ;)
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Frenchfry

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Forsythia

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #237 on: October 02, 2012, 10:41:43 AM »

Excelsior I didn't read the article transcript I listened to it yesterday at work so I must have missed that part.

Regardless Fry is right.  The long lines and obstructionist back and foryh disenfranchises voters.

MN the court ruled wrong on the tax.  Healthcare is a right the government should provide to all people.  Look at infant mortality rates in the US compare with those in countries which have socalized medicine.  In addition look at the obesity problem.  Everything points to socialized medicine being a good thing.
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Ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.  The rest of us have to put up with you idiots.

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #238 on: October 02, 2012, 10:48:36 AM »

Excelsior I didn't read the article transcript I listened to it yesterday at work so I must have missed that part.

Regardless Fry is right.  The long lines and obstructionist back and foryh disenfranchises voters.

MN the court ruled wrong on the tax.  Healthcare is a right the government should provide to all people.  Look at infant mortality rates in the US compare with those in countries which have socalized medicine.  In addition look at the obesity problem.  Everything points to socialized medicine being a good thing.

When did the constitution get amended to make health care a right?

I missed that vote....

EVERYTHING is NOT a RIGHT!

LMFAO
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Forsythia

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Re: Voter Fraud
« Reply #239 on: October 02, 2012, 10:54:57 AM »

The preamble of the Constitution.
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Ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.  The rest of us have to put up with you idiots.

"Prayer is nothing more than bargain basement anger." A. LaVey


"A christian telling an atheist he is going to hell is about as scary as a small child telling an adult they won't get any presents from santa." - R. Gervais
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