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jbs49238

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 02:17:57 AM »


I want to take your one sentence, maybe it will go out of context, but I like it as a start.

“Everyone wants to be a part of the American dream, just not everyone wants to pay for it I guess.”  Grammar Nazi says semicolon not comma, LOL.

What American Dream.  Honestly can anyone get there anymore?  I see where wages have been stagnant or dropping for decades, the share of wealth of the average worker has gone down.  It isn't even a good gamble to get a college degree because even that does not mean you can attain the American dream.  For decades the wealth has gone more and more to the top and less and less to the working people.  That is one reason that the government has stepped in and helped the workers with food stamps etc. 

We have tried supply side economics, giving the wealthy a bigger and bigger share and they have cut workers, reduced wages and exported good jobs.  Part of that wealth was created by reducing their spending in one area, wages.  That means for the wealthy to get a bigger share you must get less.   If we return to demand side policies, giving the vast majority better wages and conditions, then spending goes up because - gosh - people would have some to spend and not need social services like food stamps.  Yeah, that is just my opinion, but it is based on facts.  The wealthy have gotten far richer in comparison to the rest of the people.  Wages HAVE gone down.  Good jobs have been exported.  The remaining jobs are often low wage jobs, and often part time.  If the commodities were not being artificially inflated then maybe with deflation then the lower wages would again be sufficient (probably not, but closer).  And before someone assigns what I mean... I do not mean I want a 90% tax on the wealthy.  I want what I said, wages that the majority of workers can live on, and some attain the American dream.  I do not know how to accomplish it.  I see the problem but no easy solution.  Mostly just a mindset change from “the rich are gods” to the working people deserve living wages.

On the part of "not wanting to pay for it"  See, the wealthy are keeping a bigger share by not wanting to pay the wages for it.

A little out of context but I will agree to discuss.

We both see the commodities as being controlled by big money (I hope).  Big money used to reside in that housing BOOM that was a critical part of our economic collapse.  So now that housing is back to what I see as a realistic representation of the true value of real estate (sorry to those of you who think your $80K house REALLY IS WORTH $190K), are we now to endure another "correction" in the commodities market?  I sure hope we do.  If the prices of commodities "correct" as the housing market did then we will be back to a place where the lower wages are actually in line (a bit of deflation if you will).  The real problem will be where the BIG MONEY decides to manifest itself after the "correction" and will it hurt the working class as badly as the other "investments and corrections" did?

Happy to discuss with you again duck (friend), I will make every effort not to let it get out of hand as it did in the past. 
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jbs49238

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2012, 05:46:35 AM »

PS: Dear America,

You want to send the speculators scambling?  Crash the commodities market. SELL, SELL, SELL!!!!! Well at least everyone EXCEPT the metal lovers... you folks hold on for dear life... please!!!!
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Mike Ingels

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2012, 05:57:19 AM »

No, Jbs. That is not correct. I can't look at the widening gap between rich and poor and do nothing. And I can't look at the dramatic loss of teaching jobs and just sit around.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion on politics.  And we better get together soon because it's been too long.  Come to our Olympic party on Sunday.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 06:02:32 AM by Mike Ingels »
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Professor H

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2012, 08:58:46 AM »

My Impressions:
Most people are not that far apart on most issues. 

It's the one or two things that seem to divide - things that are rooted  deep and where most won't change like  Gun control/ownership,  Abortion for a few examples.

Taxes, Education, Military,  are generally areas that most are vocal on, but not as divided as some suggest.

Policy direction is often a result of the economy, and not controlled as much as many think by the parties.

The major differences in today's world is the "Instant" news and response, and how the various media outlets make it a story instead of reporting a story.   A generation of instant feedback and response has sped up the process and are frustrated that the answers to any problem can't be solved instantly like they are on TV shows - within 30 minutes/or hour, as the legislative process and regulations we all live with don't move at those paces (Thank Goodness!).   
 
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LetsGoWings

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2012, 01:23:17 PM »

Whether it's flat rate or a flat tax....it cannot be progressive.

Progressive taxation is entirely different.
Actually JBS's proposal would be a progressive tax. Per your copy and paste definition "A progressive tax is a tax by which the tax rate increases as the taxable base amount increases." The rate increases at 25,000 for a single individual. Making it a very small progressive tax, but still a progressive tax. You have been misreading stuff a lot lately, first my post on taxes in the other thread, and not this issue. Still waiting for you to admit your mistake in the other thread.
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Frenchfry

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2012, 01:32:10 PM »

Actually JBS's proposal would be a progressive tax. Per your copy and paste definition "A progressive tax is a tax by which the tax rate increases as the taxable base amount increases." The rate increases at 25,000 for a single individual. Making it a very small progressive tax, but still a progressive tax. You have been misreading stuff a lot lately, first my post on taxes in the other thread, and not this issue. Still waiting for you to admit your mistake in the other thread.
Cheerleading for your ilk doesn't legitimize his assertion.
Whether it's a flat rate or a flat tax...both are regressive.
But go ahead and continue damaging your standing as a numbers cruncher if you'd like.
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LetsGoWings

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2012, 01:39:00 PM »

Cheerleading for your ilk doesn't legitimize his assertion.
Whether it's a flat rate or a flat tax...both are regressive.
But go ahead and continue damaging your standing as a numbers cruncher if you'd like.
They are not regressive, a regressive tax is one that the tax rate decreases as taxable income increases, and a flat tax does not. Now, the SS tax is regressive because as income increases, the tax rate decreases.

A true flat tax where it is the same rate from 0- the highest is just that a flat tax, it is neither progressive or regressive, it does not meet the definition of either.

JBS example is a progressive tax whether you want to admit it or not, and I will prove it to you, but you will not admit you are wrong, just like the other thread.

Using JBS tax idea here are a list of income and if they are taxable or not:

10,000 -No
15,000- No
20,000- No
25,000- No
30,000- Yes
35,000- Yes

As taxable income increases, so does the tax rate, even though the only increase is from 0 to I believe 25%, making it by definition a progressive tax scheme. You are wrong again, feel free to admit that when you admit you were wrong in the other thread.
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Frenchfry

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2012, 01:44:47 PM »

Flat Tax Is Class Warfare
System’s simplicity hides the further shifting of the tax burden to the poor and middle class

Albert Einstein said that "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." Good advice for people who want to redesign tax systems. It's true that there are now 24 countries with a flat tax, but none of them got there by scrapping an established progressive income tax system nearly 100 years old. Fifteen of these countries are formerly Communist countries of Eastern and Central Europe. The others are very small, ranging from Montenegro to Iceland. No major industrial nation has made that choice. There are good reasons for going slowly.

The attraction of simplicity hides a big change in the distribution of tax obligations among the poor, the middle class, and the rich. When think tanks like Cato and Heritage support changes that redistribute the tax burden in that way, they usually warn us of the evils of class warfare. But the proposed flat tax is, in fact, class warfare—yet another attempt to reduce the tax obligations of higher-income households in exchange for the unenforceable hope or promise that they might use the money to invest and create jobs, maybe even jobs in the United States.

Two considerations should give us pause before jumping on the flat-tax bandwagon. The first is the disruptive effect of eliminating deductions, credits and exclusions that benefit the middle class as well as the rich and that play important roles in our lives—pension contributions, employer-provided healthcare, and deductions for mortgage interest, property taxes, and charitable contributions that support everything from soup kitchens to education to the arts. Second is the role of our mildly progressive federal income tax in offsetting regressive taxes elsewhere in the system.

The first argument against the flat tax, one that resonates with homeowners, charitable organizations, and anyone with employer-provided health insurance or a pension plan, is the disruption that would come from trashing the current income tax system in favor of something untested and untried. We have all made decisions on the basis of the existing and long-standing tax rules. It's hard to get people to save for their retirement, but the tax treatment of employee pensions, IRAs, and 401(k)'s has played an important role. Would we have bought a house if we knew that we were going to lose our home-related deductions? Will charitable organizations that serve those who fall through the holes in the safety net and also enrich communities with education, religion, and culture lose financial support when charitable contributions are no longer deductible? And will we have to declare our employer-provided health insurance as taxable income?

Second, there's no concealing that the flat tax would radically redistribute the tax burden. Adam Smith, to whom economists always turn to for economic wisdom, observed, "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion." The current U.S. tax system consists mainly of taxes on income (personal and corporate), payroll (Social Security), sales, and property. In 2007, these taxes provided 92 percent of federal income and 51 percent of state and local government income. Sales taxes are regressive—they take a higher share of low incomes than higher incomes. State and local income taxes range from flat to mildly progressive. Payroll taxes are moderately regressive because they fall on only wages and salaries and only up to a maximum of $106,800 in earnings. The distribution of the property tax burden is not clear, but the family home is the primary financial asset for most middle-income households. Property taxes are levied on homes, but rarely on other kinds of financial assets. State and local governments also depend on fees and charges for services, which fall heavily on lower-income households, for 44 percent of their revenue. So a moderately progressive federal income tax, with rates ranging from 15 percent to 35 percent, helps to offset regressive taxes elsewhere.

The rhetoric about ending double taxation ignores the fact that under a flat tax, wages would still be taxed twice, but dividends only once. Wage earners pay both payroll and income taxes. They've paid double taxes since 1935. Why should income from owning financial assets be treated differently—especially since most of that income goes to upper-income households?

A flat tax would shift tax obligations from the rich to the poor, and especially the middle class, and eliminate desirable tax incentives for retirement savings, home ownership, and charitable contributions. Simple? Yes. Efficient and equitable? Not so much.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2010/04/12/flat-tax-is-class-warfare
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Frenchfry

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2012, 01:46:27 PM »

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ducksoup

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2012, 01:55:36 PM »

A little out of context but I will agree to discuss.

We both see the commodities as being controlled by big money (I hope).  Big money used to reside in that housing BOOM that was a critical part of our economic collapse.  So now that housing is back to what I see as a realistic representation of the true value of real estate (sorry to those of you who think your $80K house REALLY IS WORTH $190K), are we now to endure another "correction" in the commodities market?  I sure hope we do.  If the prices of commodities "correct" as the housing market did then we will be back to a place where the lower wages are actually in line (a bit of deflation if you will).  The real problem will be where the BIG MONEY decides to manifest itself after the "correction" and will it hurt the working class as badly as the other "investments and corrections" did?

Happy to discuss with you again duck (friend), I will make every effort not to let it get out of hand as it did in the past. 

Yes, I see it as big money.

I am glad you said that as I had not even thought of a possible collapse like housing.  Unfortunately wouldn't it have to be ALL commodities for that to happen?  I mean if just corn fell, then the money would shift to boost wheat.  Because the money gambling is trillions it is hard to see a correction.  That would be a logical free market idiom, but the manipulation in such vast numbers seems to outweigh reality.
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ducksoup

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2012, 02:04:26 PM »

My Impressions:
Most people are not that far apart on most issues. 

It's the one or two things that seem to divide - things that are rooted  deep and where most won't change like  Gun control/ownership,  Abortion for a few examples.

Taxes, Education, Military,  are generally areas that most are vocal on, but not as divided as some suggest.

Policy direction is often a result of the economy, and not controlled as much as many think by the parties.

The major differences in today's world is the "Instant" news and response, and how the various media outlets make it a story instead of reporting a story.   A generation of instant feedback and response has sped up the process and are frustrated that the answers to any problem can't be solved instantly like they are on TV shows - within 30 minutes/or hour, as the legislative process and regulations we all live with don't move at those paces (Thank Goodness!).   
 
I believe gun control regulation is all hype to stir up anger and not reality.  I read very very few people that actually advocate gun elimination.  It really is very few.  Of the people on the left the vast majority do not want guns banned, but do want some sanity to regulations.  Things like limiting how many bullets a gun can hold, and who can get one, as in disqualifying those that clearly should not have them.  Seeing how the majority of the left sees it, then the hysteria that is presented to the right is far from the reality.

Abortion I absolutely agree that there will never be calmness.  I don't get why it is a Republican vs. Democrat fight.  It is a very personal thing and even given that more Democrats wish it to stay, and more Republican's wish it to go, doesn't mean that it is exclusive.  A great man of the left are opposed, and many from the right are not opposed.  So, it seems wrong for it to be a lightening rod meant to enrage.
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LetsGoWings

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2012, 02:06:37 PM »

Flat Tax Is Class Warfare
System’s simplicity hides the further shifting of the tax burden to the poor and middle class

Albert Einstein said that "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." Good advice for people who want to redesign tax systems. It's true that there are now 24 countries with a flat tax, but none of them got there by scrapping an established progressive income tax system nearly 100 years old. Fifteen of these countries are formerly Communist countries of Eastern and Central Europe. The others are very small, ranging from Montenegro to Iceland. No major industrial nation has made that choice. There are good reasons for going slowly.

The attraction of simplicity hides a big change in the distribution of tax obligations among the poor, the middle class, and the rich. When think tanks like Cato and Heritage support changes that redistribute the tax burden in that way, they usually warn us of the evils of class warfare. But the proposed flat tax is, in fact, class warfare—yet another attempt to reduce the tax obligations of higher-income households in exchange for the unenforceable hope or promise that they might use the money to invest and create jobs, maybe even jobs in the United States.

Two considerations should give us pause before jumping on the flat-tax bandwagon. The first is the disruptive effect of eliminating deductions, credits and exclusions that benefit the middle class as well as the rich and that play important roles in our lives—pension contributions, employer-provided healthcare, and deductions for mortgage interest, property taxes, and charitable contributions that support everything from soup kitchens to education to the arts. Second is the role of our mildly progressive federal income tax in offsetting regressive taxes elsewhere in the system.

The first argument against the flat tax, one that resonates with homeowners, charitable organizations, and anyone with employer-provided health insurance or a pension plan, is the disruption that would come from trashing the current income tax system in favor of something untested and untried. We have all made decisions on the basis of the existing and long-standing tax rules. It's hard to get people to save for their retirement, but the tax treatment of employee pensions, IRAs, and 401(k)'s has played an important role. Would we have bought a house if we knew that we were going to lose our home-related deductions? Will charitable organizations that serve those who fall through the holes in the safety net and also enrich communities with education, religion, and culture lose financial support when charitable contributions are no longer deductible? And will we have to declare our employer-provided health insurance as taxable income?

Second, there's no concealing that the flat tax would radically redistribute the tax burden. Adam Smith, to whom economists always turn to for economic wisdom, observed, "It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion." The current U.S. tax system consists mainly of taxes on income (personal and corporate), payroll (Social Security), sales, and property. In 2007, these taxes provided 92 percent of federal income and 51 percent of state and local government income. Sales taxes are regressive—they take a higher share of low incomes than higher incomes. State and local income taxes range from flat to mildly progressive. Payroll taxes are moderately regressive because they fall on only wages and salaries and only up to a maximum of $106,800 in earnings. The distribution of the property tax burden is not clear, but the family home is the primary financial asset for most middle-income households. Property taxes are levied on homes, but rarely on other kinds of financial assets. State and local governments also depend on fees and charges for services, which fall heavily on lower-income households, for 44 percent of their revenue. So a moderately progressive federal income tax, with rates ranging from 15 percent to 35 percent, helps to offset regressive taxes elsewhere.

The rhetoric about ending double taxation ignores the fact that under a flat tax, wages would still be taxed twice, but dividends only once. Wage earners pay both payroll and income taxes. They've paid double taxes since 1935. Why should income from owning financial assets be treated differently—especially since most of that income goes to upper-income households?

A flat tax would shift tax obligations from the rich to the poor, and especially the middle class, and eliminate desirable tax incentives for retirement savings, home ownership, and charitable contributions. Simple? Yes. Efficient and equitable? Not so much.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2010/04/12/flat-tax-is-class-warfare
That does nothing to prove that they are regressive, or prove that JBS's example is not progressive. That is because in JBS's example the tax is mildly progressive and a true flat tax is neither regressive or progressive, but I agree that it places an unfair burden on the lower class.
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Great advice from another poster on this forum, we should all live by this:

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ducksoup

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2012, 02:11:31 PM »

FF and LGW it doesn't matter.  The reality is that the people pulling the string WANT it the way it is.  They want the loopholes and zillions of pages of legalese to dodge with.  Fighting about whether it is flat or regressive or progressive doesn't matter.  The major part is the dismantlement of the millions of pages of tax code, anything else is just fluff. 
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LetsGoWings

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2012, 02:18:54 PM »

FF and LGW it doesn't matter.  The reality is that the people pulling the string WANT it the way it is.  They want the loopholes and zillions of pages of legalese to dodge with.  Fighting about whether it is flat or regressive or progressive doesn't matter.  The major part is the dismantlement of the millions of pages of tax code, anything else is just fluff.
Sorry DS for hijacking the thread.

It sounds great to reduce the pages of tax, but it is not as easy as people think. When they site the, I believe 55,000 pages, that includes the code, regulations, and certain IRS rulings. Some of the regulations are pages and pages long with various examples to make sure the people know how the specific code section works, and the IRS rulings are items that people submit to the IRS to get a ruling on.

It also sounds great to reduce loopholes, but it is not possible. Congress spends maybe a month or two working on certain tax laws, and does/can not think of all the possible business scenarios. CPAs and lawyers will spend the whole year working on specific code sections to find the loopholes that Congress left outs and think of scenarios to exploit the loopholes.

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Great advice from another poster on this forum, we should all live by this:

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LetsGoWings

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Re: Divided America
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2012, 02:27:48 PM »

My ideas are:

Reduce the DoD budget to a reasonable amount, I do not know that amount, but currently it is unreasonable. Give them three years to become an auditable entity, and if not continue to reduce funding. There is no reason why they should be allowed to not be audited, for all we know is there could be an incredible amount of waste and corruption in the DoD. With those extra funds I would suggest shifting most of them to the DoE and public work projects.

Add a third rate to LTCG rates to make it 0/15/25.

Expand the QPAD percentage, but restrict the use of it to strictly only manufacturing jobs.

Reduce the tax rate on intangible assets. This will actually increase revenue because it will be more attractive to hold the patents in the US. Currently, companies will hold patents overseas, and never repatriate the money they make from them, so there is no way the US could legally tax the money until it is repatriated.

Reform the AMT to what the intended use should be.

Put strict phaseouts back in place for the tax credits.

Put the phaseout back on itemized deductions.

And a few other minor things.
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Great advice from another poster on this forum, we should all live by this:

"I'd advise against anyone contemplating sullying the reputation of any of the candidates without solid proof. "
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