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MonroeMonkey

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Warning: This may blow your mind!



According to Einstein, the flow of time is an illusion. According to his theory, time is relative to subject, space, and motion speed.


Say Forsythia and I lived 10 billion light years away from one another.

If we were both sitting still and you freeze framed the present moment, then our NOW would be exactly the same in this freeze frame. He'd be sitting still, on a couch, and I'd be sitting still, in a chair.

But say, I got on a bike and rode down the street at 10 miles per hour away from Forsythia, then if you freeze framed our NOW. I'd be riding a bike in my now, but Forsythia's now would be 150 years in the past. Forsythia wouldn't even have been born yet.

But say, I ride my bike towards Forsythia at 10 miles per hour, then you freeze framed our NOW. In my now I'd be riding my bike, but Forsythia's now would be 150 years in the future. Forsythia is already dead.


Einstein once said, "For we convinced physicists, the distinction between past, present, and future is only an illusion, however persistent." The only thing that's real is the whole of spacetime.

As physicists say, "In this way of thinking, events, regardless of when they happen from any particular perspective, just are. They all exist. They eternally occupy their particular point in spacetime. There is no flow. If you were having a great time at the stroke of midnight on New Year's Eve, 1999, you still are, since that is just one immutable location in spacetime."

In this idea, any freeze frame location of spacetime has within it all the information of seemingly past events and future events, but the mystery is why we can't see the future. Your past self 1 hour ago is doing the same thing you were doing an hour ago, as an eternal location in spacetime, but isn't aware he, or she, will be reading this in one hour.


I wonder how this could affect one's view of god and creation. According to the East, all things exist as potentiality within pure Mind. For example, when you lay down at night and close your eyes, with the light out, you see nothing. There is no perception of distance, no up or down, no left or right, only a void of pure Mind. But within this formless mind stuff you can dream an infinite amount of dream worlds. Every dream exists in potentiality, as a proto-dream, but the dream you dream that night becomes an actual dream, collapsing all other potential dreams. When you awake the dream dissolves back into the void of pure potentiality.

Could it be we are all within something like a consciousness, as the Eastern Buddhists have come to realize in deep absorbed meditation? This would make sense of Einstein's time. It would also make sense of the double slit experiment in Quantum Physics, which shows a subatomic particle cannot be measured until observed; it remains as potentiality until observation, then it collapses potentiality into actuality. This life could be a dream, metaphorically speaking. And when you dream it's like a dream within a dream, and nature bears the proof of being holographic and fractal (self-similar). Reality wouldn't be the same as our dreams, but we may be able to use this language to point to a greater reality.

The father of quantum physics, Max Planck, said in 1944, "All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." Physicist James Hopwood Jeans said, "The stream of knowledge is heading towards a non-mechanical reality; the Universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, and we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter."

That said, it doesn't mean this universe is thoughtfully designed. We create great things when awake, but when asleep we become dream worlds without trying to, and those dream worlds are far more marvelous that what we create when awake. Our consciousness becomes the dream universe; we become the people, the trees, the mountains, etc. The universe may be more likened unto a dream rather than a thoughtful design, as the East believes.

It could be the substance of nature is a kind of consciousness or proto-conscious, which by its nature has certain eternal intrinsic qualities whereby it appears as form, for a time, only to awaken into into non-dual unified Being.

This is what the East calls Brahman and Maya. Maya is the appearance of matter and forms, which is subject to the appearance of change, and Brahman is the pure conscious substance and ultimate reality, untouched by the play (Lila) within Maya. In this belief, one is the ultimate unified substance (pure consciousness) but one loses sight of this true nature by identification with the body and senses; like how in a dream you are lost in the dream world, not knowing who you really are, but if you become lucid and know you're dreaming you realize who you really are before you wake up. By detaching from form and sense one finds their true nature of non-dual unified bliss consciousness - Satcitananda Brahman; this is like becoming lucid before awakening. In this case, you can become lucid before awaking fully, and death is the end of this temporary dream.



Any thoughts?
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sammy

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My mind is officially blown!
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livewire

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  • "SHALL NOT be infringed". Got it?

Dude, you really should spend a little more money on your drugs.
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When I was a little boy, my mother spoke of a prophecy, of a time when all the world would be covered in darkness and the fate of all of mankind would be decided. One night I finally got the courage to ask my mother why God had changed, why He was so angry with His children. “I don’t know,” she said as she tucked the covers around me. “I guess He just got tired of all the bullshlt.”

Pax

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    THE GOD OF SCIENCE HAS SPOKEN!  ALL MUST OBEY HIS DECREES OR...  I dunno, what's the punishment supposed to be for not bowing down and worshipping at that altar, Xerxes?  Everlasting flames?  A bad credit rating?  A frigid wife?  What?!  Curiosity is killing me...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 11:39:33 PM by Pax »
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Qui tacet consentit! - "He who is silent consents" - Maxim of Law
"For he who would be deceived, let him." - Roman maxim
"Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them." -Pope St. Felix III
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit.
Ryht æðelo biþ on ðam móde, næs on ðam flæ-acute

MonroeMonkey

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It was a bad idea to think I'd get a thoughtful response from this crowd.
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LessGovernment

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  • "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom"

this crowd. wants to know why you spend 20 hours a day DOMINATING the religion and philosophy thread with your Christian/God/Jesus bashing?

Got an answer? - or - should we all just correctly assume you become "aroused" when you see the name "Xerxes" in every column on the right hand side?

You should get a job to occupy your time, and get over yourself - you are NOT impressing anyone ... I am pretty sure you are annoying most of this crowd.; and that would speak to your MATURITY.

I outlasted you in your pet evolution project, and I have 5 kids and 3 jobs - now you come up with this Einstein crap to pass yourself off as of higher intelligence/understanding? ... seriously ... it's grow up time - LET OTHER PEOPLE DISCUSS THINGS ... go frolick in the atheism forums ... or ... get a screen name and start ridiculing the 9/11 truthers and other conspiracy theorists at 12160.org or something, I am sure you could show them how you have ALL the answers, and how the atheists over there are as deluded as the Christians over here!

You are definitely a TROLL.
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"Wherefore governments rather depend upon men than men upon governments. Let men be good, and the government cannot be bad; if it be ill, they will cure it. But, if men be bad, let the government be ever so good, they will endeavor to warp and spoil it to their turn." - William Penn

MonroeMonkey

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"You are definitely a TROLL," said the Troll, while trolling a thread.




Anyways, maybe someone could contribute thoughtfully to the subject matter?

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Forsythia

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Juat because you outlasted him doesnt mean you won.  As for your little lew rockwell link....well we all know what kind of person he is...
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Ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.  The rest of us have to put up with you idiots.

"Prayer is nothing more than bargain basement anger." A. LaVey


"A christian telling an atheist he is going to hell is about as scary as a small child telling an adult they won't get any presents from santa." - R. Gervais

Forsythia

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this crowd. wants to know why you spend 20 hours a day DOMINATING the religion and philosophy thread with your Christian/God/Jesus bashing?

Citation needed.

Quote
Got an answer? - or - should we all just correctly assume you become "aroused" when you see the name "Xerxes" in every column on the right hand side?

Really?  Wow talk about disgusting name calling.

Quote
You should get a job to occupy your time, and get over yourself - you are NOT impressing anyone ... I am pretty sure you are annoying most of this crowd.; and that would speak to your MATURITY.

And you believe you aren't being annoying?

Quote
I outlasted you in your pet evolution project, and I have 5 kids and 3 jobs - now you come up with this Einstein crap to pass yourself off as of higher intelligence/understanding? ... seriously ... it's grow up time - LET OTHER PEOPLE DISCUSS THINGS ... go frolick in the atheism forums ... or ... get a screen name and start ridiculing the 9/11 truthers and other conspiracy theorists at 12160.org or something, I am sure you could show them how you have ALL the answers, and how the atheists over there are as deluded as the Christians over here!

You are definitely a TROLL.

Ahhh conspiracy theorist websites.  Good to know you frequent those sites.
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Ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.  The rest of us have to put up with you idiots.

"Prayer is nothing more than bargain basement anger." A. LaVey


"A christian telling an atheist he is going to hell is about as scary as a small child telling an adult they won't get any presents from santa." - R. Gervais

Pax

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     I saw this car @ Wally World on Telegraph, apparently there really ARE trolls in Monroe, and they post on this forum:

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Qui tacet consentit! - "He who is silent consents" - Maxim of Law
"For he who would be deceived, let him." - Roman maxim
"Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them." -Pope St. Felix III
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit.
Ryht æðelo biþ on ðam móde, næs on ðam flæ-acute

LessGovernment

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trolling?  me?

very "THOUGHTFUL" of you!

Big-boy Christian-basher wanted an argument, and I answered the call ... of course nobody "won" the creation/evolution debate; the referee is the court of public opinion on this Earth, but the SETTLED TRUTH is not here, and I suspect everyone will KNOW one day what the TRUTH is about how humans got here!

All I see is YOU backing him, T-M-T, and probably FF a wee bit - that's 3, maybe 4; Considering of ALL the views of ALL the threads I have engaged him in, I don't think Xerxes has succeeded in proving Biblical Christianity is a mental disorder - especially to the degree that his proud position that he is in happy total denial of the existence of a Creator is NOT foolish.

This is MT - that's all it is ... I can go without it, and do other things than be a fly in Xerxes pre-biotic soup...consider yourselves WARNED...I may just come back and point out more of your insulting assertions later by CHOICE, not necessity for personal self-ag·gran·dize·ment

Consider your last shot at Hovind - via bashing Lew Rockwell, or the blanket blind swipe at Austrian economics - HOW totally disconnected ... the article was written by Bill Sardi, who the site says "is a frequent writer on health and political topics. His health writings can be found at www.naturalhealthlibrarian.com. He is the author of "You Don't Have To Be Afraid Of Cancer Anymore."

Perhaps you can start a thread bashing him as a God-believing fool who knows NOTHING about medicine and health, or politics and morality.

As far as Xerxes looking for a "thoughtful" contribution to his subject matter - I don't think he'll get one in that it is NO DREAM that I lost my job in Monroe because the politicians out there are self-serving immoral persons, it is NO DREAM that my home lost half its value in this current economic collapse brought on by hypocritical politicians and bankers and corporate leaders who claim to adhere to a Judeo-Christian set of values, and it is NO DREAM that if I don't work 3 jobs I cannot put a roof over my children's heads, buy them health insurance, and feed them.

I don't want to DIE in order to end this "temporary" dream; I just want liars and thieves to be removed from high places in this REALITY where all they do is insulate themselves with what they steal, and punish/kill/enslave their human equals because they think that this Earth is THEIR playground, and THEY themselves are gods, and NOBODY(no Creator) is holding EVERY atom together, as well as keeping an account of our every thought, word, and deed.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 03:23:55 PM by LessGovernment »
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"Wherefore governments rather depend upon men than men upon governments. Let men be good, and the government cannot be bad; if it be ill, they will cure it. But, if men be bad, let the government be ever so good, they will endeavor to warp and spoil it to their turn." - William Penn

MonroeMonkey

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This is useless. I'm done hoping for a thoughtful discussion here. Some topics are for discussion, like this one; others are for debate, such as Evolution Vs. Creationism. I'd think people would be able to understand the context of a thread.

And I never said that *I* believe this world is a dream. And reading above you'll notice I said:

"Reality wouldn't be the same as our dreams, but we may be able to use this language to point to a greater reality." A reflective or holographic reality.


Someone posts a thread hoping for a discussion and you have people calling people trolls when it's they themselves that are trolling in aggression. I don't mind heated debates, but let them be on topic and have a valid argument behind the heat.

Anyways, I'm done wasting my time here.



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Forsythia

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I just re read your initial post and I find this reallu interesting.  It brings me to question my own philosophical views and whether or not we have any free will since the past, present, and future is occurring at the exact same time, but in a different reality.

Now if we do have free will, wouldnt all possible pasts, presents, amd futures be occurring all at once?  If so would this make it paradoxal to traverse these different dimensions?


Great topic by the way!
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Ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.  The rest of us have to put up with you idiots.

"Prayer is nothing more than bargain basement anger." A. LaVey


"A christian telling an atheist he is going to hell is about as scary as a small child telling an adult they won't get any presents from santa." - R. Gervais

MonroeMonkey

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I just re read your initial post and I find this reallu interesting.  It brings me to question my own philosophical views and whether or not we have any free will since the past, present, and future is occurring at the exact same time, but in a different reality.

Now if we do have free will, wouldnt all possible pasts, presents, amd futures be occurring all at once?  If so would this make it paradoxal to traverse these different dimensions?


Great topic by the way!

Thanks. I'll discuss this with you, as I don't think that would be a waste of time.

I, personally, don't subscribe to freewill. I think the idea of freewill and non-freewill neither apply to reality. Einstein didn't hold to freewill either, and many philosophers, as you know, rejected freewill.

If I open the fridge and see an apple and an orange. I will want one more than the other, but when I examine the *why* I can't find the reason. Why did I want the apple over the orange?

When I walk down the street and come to an intersection, I can seemingly choose to go left or right. If I turn left, then why did I turn left? If I examine, I find I wanted to go left. But why did I want to go left? The more we examine the more we find an unanswerable darkness.

Many Buddhists deny freewill as well. They use the explanation of independent arising. I'll try to explain independent arising...

Consider the sun. Without it you could not exist. Consider the water you drink. Without it you could not exist. Consider the air you breathe. Without it you could not exist. In the same way that you cannot exist without your heart, you cannot exist without the sun, the rain, and the air you breathe; therefore, the sun is as much you as any part of your body. And the sun is as much me as it is you; therefore, we share this same larger body.

A fig does not appear instantly but is the result of a larger process, which is the growth of the tree; therefore, the fig is empty of an intrinsic independent self nature. If the fig believed it was an independent entity apart from the tree it would be in ignorance and delusion.

In a tiny mustard seed is all the information to become a mustard tree; the seed and the tree are one. From the smallest seed unfolded the universe; the universe and the seed are one. If the fruit of a tree, or a branch, believed itself to be a separate individual, from the entirety of the tree, it would be in ignorance and delusion; likewise, all things in the universe are manifestations and parts of one whole being. All existence is dependent on the processes of the whole, which has many manifestations but is undivided.


This makes sense of seeming choices. All choices are performed in co-dependence of myriad factors; therefore, there is no individual *self* making the choices, but, again, a complex play of processes within this one Being. This is what Buddha calls *anatta* or not-self. When you examine choices they are not chosen by some individual entity, but arise from a co-dependent play. Individuality is a concept within our minds, but reality is really undivided.

So, if there is a *will* it's the universal will, but even then the universe operates by its eternal intrinsic qualities and cannot be said to be free, but merely becoming according to its nature. It's beyond free and not free. It just Is. Realizing this can cause one to graciously accept what is and sail through life, as opposed to rowing and striving.
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Forsythia

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That actually makes a lot of sense.  In the idea of a universal tapestry if you have the choice to go left or right, but if you have the desire to go down you can not.  Now, as I understand it, this is because the univers cannot allow you to go down because of events that have happened or need to happen in the future. 

Now a lot of people would say that this leaves people to not include basic morality in their day to day life.  Why would someone choose do do something good when their is no free will?  This is where I believe in something I'll call localized free will.  The past cannot be changed, but I do believe we can change the future with our actions in the present.

That being said I believe that everyone guides their own string of the tapestry.  The choices I make may influence the choices you have, but they are still my choices.
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Ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.  The rest of us have to put up with you idiots.

"Prayer is nothing more than bargain basement anger." A. LaVey


"A christian telling an atheist he is going to hell is about as scary as a small child telling an adult they won't get any presents from santa." - R. Gervais
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