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Professor H

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2012, 09:35:11 AM »

Funny how if you don't look then the blinders work perfect.

some of the OTHER issues you can't see.  adding 75 minutes to each day for students AND making school year round.  Tied to that a schedule of when the schools will be air conditioned for that extension.  (AC is not a part of the negotiations, just a timeline for when it is to be put in)

Hiring of 600 art, special ed, and misc, which includes social workers and nurses.

Note, that a lot of the pay increase is involved in the longer days and months of teaching. 

But, hey, anything for right wing talking points.

Gee must not have been an issue important enough for ABC to post about?

Sources for your claim please?
I don't deny it may be - but I'm going off a local ABC report on the issues.

When did ABC see the light  ;D  ;D
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Professor H

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2012, 10:38:49 AM »

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First, it was not a strip bar, it was an erotic club. And second, what can I say? I'm a night owl.
Marion Berry

But we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.
Nancy Pelosi

LetsGoWings

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2012, 04:51:46 PM »

Every worker in the state of Michigan has the right to form a union so this would or could protect a much larger demographic than just "these fine teachers" you mention.
I don't really have the right to form a union, the moment I even mention it I would be fired on the spot because I am an at-will employee.
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ducksoup

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2012, 06:23:18 PM »

I don't really have the right to form a union, the moment I even mention it I would be fired on the spot because I am an at-will employee.
Unfortunately that is a reality, but you do still have the right even if in real life it can't happen. 
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excelsior

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2012, 06:26:45 PM »

At least he doesn't like Avril LaVigne...or does he?

This is NOT what Chicago students need! Why didn't the teachers strike over summer vacation?

Good call MM...

His reason for the signage: 

Michael Konkoleski ‏@konkoleski
@gidgetgirl4469 I'm trying to lighten the mood during these tough times, nothing like seeing my co-workers laugh and smile during this week!

more at:  https://twitter.com/konkoleski
 

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excelsior

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2012, 08:00:58 PM »

It looks like summer is over for CPS students.

Chicago teachers vote to suspend strike
more at:   http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120918/NATION/209180366/1361/Chicago-teachers-vote-to-suspend-strike

Chicago — The city's teachers agreed Tuesday to return to the classroom after more than a week on the picket lines, ending a spiteful stalemate with Mayor Rahm Emanuel that put teacher evaluations and job security at the center of a national debate about the future of public education.

Union delegates voted to formally suspend the strike after discussing details of a proposed contract settlement worked out over the weekend. Union delegates voted overwhelmingly to formally suspend the strike after discussing details of a proposed contract settlement worked out over the weekend. Classes were to resume Wednesday.



From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120918/NATION/209180366#ixzz26rwagq6M
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John Kopke

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2012, 09:46:52 PM »

I wonder what would happen if these teachers were told we don't want to hear excuses for why the kids aren't learning, we want results. Your either make it happen or you're out of here. I think we'd see these teachers come around to the culture of the Marines. Improvise, adapt and overcome. That is how the real world works and that is the world these teachers are supposedly preparing these kids to enter. I don’t understand how people sheltered from reality themselves can teach kids what they need to know to about how to survive and prosper. We can’t all be teachers.   
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John Kopke

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2012, 10:30:07 PM »


I wonder what would happen if these teachers were told we don't want to hear excuses for why the kids aren't learning, we want results. Your either make it happen or you're out of here. I think we'd see these teachers come around to the culture of the Marines. Improvise, adapt and overcome. That is how the real world works and that is the world these teachers are supposedly preparing these kids to enter. I don’t understand how people sheltered from reality themselves can teach kids what they need to know to about how to survive and prosper. We can’t all be teachers.   



Teachers have kids for 6 hours a day, the parents the other 18.  In the case of high school it is one hour a day.  Why is it always the teacher’s fault and never the parents?

Interesting analogy.  So, if someone commits terrorism then the marines should be fired because they didn’t stop it?  Marines eat sleep and train 24 hours a day 7 days a week.  Think they can do that same job if they are only taught 6 hours a day 5 days a week with summer off?

Yes, teachers must be able to adapt ad overcome, when they are not forced to do rote learning to the standardized tests, which I hear is most of the time.  That same teaching to the test and the strict guidelines would prevent them from improving.

Maybe you can’t understand because you refuse to.

Take a wrecked 20 year old rusted out Honda from the junk yard to your local mechanic and ask him to transform it into a brand new model in one day for $50.00.  WHAT?  He can’t?  OMG why aren’t mechanics marines?  He should be fired for not being able to do a simple thing like take a 20 year old rusted wreck from the junkyard and make it into a brand new car for a quarter of a days pay… all in a day…

Oh, and did ya ever think that those marines would not be there if not for their teachers in the first place?
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John Kopke

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2012, 11:41:13 PM »


Teachers have kids for 6 hours a day, the parents the other 18.  In the case of high school it is one hour a day.  Why is it always the teacher’s fault and never the parents?

Interesting analogy.  So, if someone commits terrorism then the marines should be fired because they didn’t stop it?  Marines eat sleep and train 24 hours a day 7 days a week.  Think they can do that same job if they are only taught 6 hours a day 5 days a week with summer off?

Yes, teachers must be able to adapt ad overcome, when they are not forced to do rote learning to the standardized tests, which I hear is most of the time.  That same teaching to the test and the strict guidelines would prevent them from improving.

Maybe you can’t understand because you refuse to.

Take a wrecked 20 year old rusted out Honda from the junk yard to your local mechanic and ask him to transform it into a brand new model in one day for $50.00.  WHAT?  He can’t?  OMG why aren’t mechanics marines?  He should be fired for not being able to do a simple thing like take a 20 year old rusted wreck from the junkyard and make it into a brand new car for a quarter of a days pay… all in a day…

Oh, and did ya ever think that those marines would not be there if not for their teachers in the first place?


Well I do have to admit you have been "educated" with all the standard liberal talking points/excuses. I come from a sales background. If a saleman wasn't making sales he better damn well figure out how to turn it around and make it happen, or he was history. Teachers clearly live in a different world, with summers off. 
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John Kopke

Forsythia

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2012, 07:00:44 AM »

Well I do have to admit you have been "educated" with all the standard liberal talking points/excuses. I come from a sales background. If a saleman wasn't making sales he better damn well figure out how to turn it around and make it happen, or he was history. Teachers clearly live in a different world, with summers off.

So you're still blaming the teachers even though theres little to no parent involvement in a lot of occasions?  Have you even spoken to a teacher?  Do you know what they deal with for the little pay they get?  Do you know how many school supplies they have to supply for their students.  I have two friends who are teachers and they dedicate their lives to their students and it's amazing what they have the put up with from the parents.  I have heard multiple stories about parents making up excuses for not ensuring their children do their homework, or blaming the teachers for their childs behavior.
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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2012, 07:39:41 AM »

So you're still blaming the teachers even though theres little to no parent involvement in a lot of occasions? 

And why the lack of parental involvement?  What is the cause of that?  Could it be the constant attacks on the traditional family structure?  Could it be the declining rate of two parent households, whether it be through divorce or having children out of wedlock?  Could it be the lie told to women that you DON'T need a spouse to help raise the kids?  Now I am not saying some single parents don't do a great job - but it is by no means ideal.  Now the Liberal posters will attack me and call me names because my ideas are rooted in a religion and belief system that they find to be outdated and not in line with their secular beliefs.

Regardless of the parental involvement or not there have to be standards, and teachers that don't perform should be dismissed.  Perhaps the baseline is the scores in the school or district, but we can't just let poor teachers - and YES they DO exist - get by because parents don't support them.

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ducksoup

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2012, 08:07:16 AM »

Well I do have to admit you have been "educated" with all the standard liberal talking points/excuses. I come from a sales background. If a saleman wasn't making sales he better damn well figure out how to turn it around and make it happen, or he was history. Teachers clearly live in a different world, with summers off. 


Not talking points, not excuses, just things you refuse to see.

Okay, let’s do it your way.  You are salesman and are expected to make a million dollars in sales every week.  Now, what is normally accomplishable is closer to half a million a week, but if you don’t have a quota to push you to work you will sluff off.  So, now you work your tushy off to get quota and the product comes from the factory defective in many ways over and over.  Different things different days but what it always comes down to is that the workers are messing up, not coming in, not doing their jobs right, and your boss doesn’t care, doesn’t do anything but harp at you for not making quota.  It’s your fault for not making quota, not anyone else.  You get a pay cut for not making quota and since you are so unmotivated up the quota to 1.25 million a week or you are fired.  No change in product coming out broken.  You can’t change the factory or those workers that don’t do their jobs.

Oh, and your new territory is the most dangerous in the country. 

Teachers are only one part of education, yeah a big important part, but not the only part.  When the other parts are lacking, which includes parents and a culture that cares about education, then one part alone can’t do it all.

Would you expect a highly paid and highly trained shrink to counsel 50 drunks a day; all of them from families of drunks living in areas where everyone are drunks; each of which wants to remain a drunk.  Can that shrink transform 50 into former drunks every day?  Let’s say he does good on 20% and they stop, and 60% mostly don’t drink as much, and 20% stay drunks.  If you take the shrinks job in isolation maybe, but reality says there are too many other things that the shrink could not control to place complete blame.  It is illogical to blame anyone for the factors that they have no control over.

It is not logical to think a mechanic can take a car you drove for ten years at 250,000 miles and never changed the oil or spark plugs or any other maintenance and in one day transform it from a 10 year old used VW into a brand new Mercedes Benz. 

When your highly paid doctor tells you that you have high cholesterol and heart disease because of your years of bad eating and other habits, is it his/her fault that you never listened?  Should that doctor take a 50% pay cut because you refused to cooperate and got sick?

We have a culture that openly promotes that education is either worthless or even bad.  We have a culture that parents don’t care about their children or do their job of raising them.  We have a culture that makes the wild claim that teachers can and must be super human and do the impossible.  Teaching someone that refuses to learn is no different than telling a drunk not to drink, or a druggy not to use drugs. 

Until people start believing that education is a good thing, a desirable thing, as a society…  Until parents care about the raising of their children and caring about their education…  Then, even marginally good teachers will be seen as brilliant.

BTW, teachers are not the end all be all.  All they are supposed to do is teach one the basics  and how to learn on their own, and should be the start of a life of learning.
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Forsythia

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2012, 08:07:28 AM »

And why the lack of parental involvement?  What is the cause of that?  Could it be the constant attacks on the traditional family structure?  Could it be the declining rate of two parent households, whether it be through divorce or having children out of wedlock?  Could it be the lie told to women that you DON'T need a spouse to help raise the kids?  Now I am not saying some single parents don't do a great job - but it is by no means ideal.  Now the Liberal posters will attack me and call me names because my ideas are rooted in a religion and belief system that they find to be outdated and not in line with their secular beliefs.

Regardless of the parental involvement or not there have to be standards, and teachers that don't perform should be dismissed.  Perhaps the baseline is the scores in the school or district, but we can't just let poor teachers - and YES they DO exist - get by because parents don't support them.
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ducksoup

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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2012, 08:53:47 AM »

And why the lack of parental involvement?  What is the cause of that?  Could it be the constant attacks on the traditional family structure?  Could it be the declining rate of two parent households, whether it be through divorce or having children out of wedlock?  Could it be the lie told to women that you DON'T need a spouse to help raise the kids?  Now I am not saying some single parents don't do a great job - but it is by no means ideal.  Now the Liberal posters will attack me and call me names because my ideas are rooted in a religion and belief system that they find to be outdated and not in line with their secular beliefs.

Regardless of the parental involvement or not there have to be standards, and teachers that don't perform should be dismissed.  Perhaps the baseline is the scores in the school or district, but we can't just let poor teachers - and YES they DO exist - get by because parents don't support them.




Great questions. 

I don’t see any “attack on the family structure.”  I see a sad migration from the concept, but not an attack.  It is the way things work now.  Jobs are not permanent.  People HAVE to go from company to company, place to place, usually removing many from family. 

I can only see a coincidental association between the breakdown of family and falling education.  If education were to become a societal positive that the culture valued, then it would likely not matter if the family unit was less than preferable.

My opinion is that a great deal comes from the loudness of those that show disdain for education.  What is heard is that education is bad and that it is teachers fault for being overpaid.  That give children the idea that teachers are not to be listened to and that education is not worth their time.

I agree that our education system needs improved, but only a part is highly qualified teachers. 

It is harder or impossible to get someone to do what they don’t want, or stop what they want.  Generally, no one can help an alcoholic until they want help.  Trying to force them to stop MAY be possible with far more effort… maybe. 

In the same way if society puts credit toward education and makes clear it is a desired outcome, and parents show it as well, then students will care and try.

I agree that less qualified teachers should not remain.  However, there are more factors involved.

One, teachers are still individuals and teach differently and sometimes two people just can’t work together.  One child might do best with a strict teacher, while another with a more relaxed exploring thinking type teacher.  But, what is more important is parent expectations.

If you have a parent, or parents that pay no attention but report cards and get mad at the teacher because little Johnny got a C, they usually claim it is the teacher’s fault and don’t care that little Johnny failed to do any homework assigned. 

If you don’t change your oil or plugs regularly do you blame the mechanic and say he is bad because your car broke down?  Do you blame your doctor because you got sick?  Would you blame the manufacturer for making a bad product when it is really the metal coming to him is far below reasonable quality?

I can’t judge who is a good mechanic or not, I have to let those that are trained to remove the bad ones.  I can’t really know who is a good doctor or not and expect that other professionals will deal with them. 

The biggest problem I see to teaching to the test is that educating children is not manufacturing where you can take a piece and put it under a microscope to see if the lines are performing as required.  All teachers and all students are different individuals with different personalities.  You can have the best of the best teacher and might be unable to do a great job with some students because of external factors.  Take the best teacher from Oakland County and put him/her in downtown Detroit and I bet that teacher will no longer seem so fantastic.  It is hard to teach when the kids are preoccupied with hunger or survival.

I agree some teachers should not be.  My grandson had one I disliked in the extreme.  Not cooperative with me or his mother.  Strict and rude.  He did terrible with her.  To m e she was a failure, but other kids did well with that strictness and didn’t have parents that wanted to be involved that would be insulted.

Then, my daughter had algebra in 7th grade.  Every single day she would come home and not have a clue what was taught.  I would only have to spend five minutes explaining it and she would get it.  To me it said the teacher was failing since she easily got it when explained a different way.  It was clearly a failure of the teacher.  But, still does that mean the teacher was bad if he/she got through to most of the others with the same technique?

I guess what I am saying is that teaching is not exacting and concrete and able to be simplified to one test.  Obviously, tests matter, but they are not the end all be all of whether a teacher is at fault or the student.
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Re: Chicago Teacher Strike
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2012, 11:27:47 AM »


Great questions. 

I don't see any attack on the family structure.”  I see a sad migration from the concept, but not an attack.  It is the way things work now.  Jobs are not permanent.  People HAVE to go from company to company, place to place, usually removing many from family.
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I have to disagree with you.  Media in the form of print and TV have been driving home the message that single parents can get the job done, and they show it happening for all to see.  Unfortunately this is scripts, and not real life, and they often don't show the difficulty and challenges in raising a child.

I also see divorce as a big issue causing single parent homes.

I talked to a male friend that recently helped out at his daughters class along with his wife at a Monroe Public School elementary class room.  One of the little girls in the class asked him who he was - and he said I am so and so's daddy.  She was confused by that concept...  and asked him a further question on if he was her mommy's boyfriend, and did they live together?  He said no, I am her husband, and yes I live with them.  The whole concept was foreign to this little girl.  When he looked into it the kids with a mom and dad that were married and lived together seemed to be a minority in his daughters class.  I am not making this up.

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I can only see a coincidental association between the breakdown of family and falling education.  If education were to become a societal positive that the culture valued, then it would likely not matter if the family unit was less than preferable.
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We work with my child every evening on homework, and push her to get it done.  We often have to reinforce teaching that was done at school on concepts that she struggles with.  I can tell you she does not do as well at school when we relax and don't stay involved day to day with her education.  I don't think the teacher is responsible for doing it all on their own, nor do I believe they could get it done.

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My opinion is that a great deal comes from the loudness of those that show disdain for education.  What is heard is that education is bad and that it is teachers fault for being overpaid.  That give children the idea that teachers are not to be listened to and that education is not worth their time.
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I don't see that.  I do know teachers that are envious that I make more then they do, but I work 12 months a year, ~50-60 hours per week, and they work a fraction of what I do.  I think per hour they make more then I do.  Many of my teacher friends recognize this and are content with the time off trade off, while others complain they are not properly compensated since they make less then other professions.

I think the per hour compensation, the pensions, the health care that teachers get along with alot of time off give a great work-life balance.  I know people who have left my profession to become teachers mid career when they recognize that. 

I don't see a disdain for the profession, though there may be some fatigue from listening to the compensation complaints from the MEA.

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I agree that our education system needs improved, but only a part is highly qualified teachers. 

It is harder or impossible to get someone to do what they don't want, or stop what they want.  Generally, no one can help an alcoholic until they want help.  Trying to force them to stop MAY be possible with far more effort… maybe. 

In the same way if society puts credit toward education and makes clear it is a desired outcome, and parents show it as well, then students will care and try.
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Exactly!  Now we are back to my argument that what happens at home is critical to the child's success.  I think that is true, and I think two parents can give the child a better chance then one, especially when both parents are working outside the house everyday.

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I agree that less qualified teachers should not remain.  However, there are more factors involved.

One, teachers are still individuals and teach differently and sometimes two people just can't work together.  One child might do best with a strict teacher, while another with a more relaxed exploring thinking type teacher.  But, what is more important is parent expectations.

If you have a parent, or parents that pay no attention but report cards and get mad at the teacher because little Johnny got a C, they usually claim it is the teacher's fault and don't care that little Johnny failed to do any homework assigned.
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Agree.  I back up my kids teachers even when I don't agree with them.  If I do have concerns with what the teacher is doing I discuss them out of sight with my kid.  Most principals I have ever met will consider parental input for putting a kid in a certain kids classroom if they think a teaching style will benefit the kid - for example Johnny needs a disciplinarian, and Mrs so and so has a great reputation for that.

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The biggest problem I see to teaching to the test is that educating children is not manufacturing where you can take a piece and put it under a microscope to see if the lines are performing as required.  All teachers and all students are different individuals with different personalities.  You can have the best of the best teacher and might be unable to do a great job with some students because of external factors.  Take the best teacher from Oakland County and put him/her in downtown Detroit and I bet that teacher will no longer seem so fantastic.  It is hard to teach when the kids are preoccupied with hunger or survival.
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I agree with you.  That is why I say compare teachers within a school or district.  It wouldn't be fair to not take into account external factors.

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I agree some teachers should not be.  My grandson had one I disliked in the extreme.  Not cooperative with me or his mother.  Strict and rude.  He did terrible with her.  To m e she was a failure, but other kids did well with that strictness and didn't have parents that wanted to be involved that would be insulted.

Then, my daughter had algebra in 7th grade.  Every single day she would come home and not have a clue what was taught.  I would only have to spend five minutes explaining it and she would get it.  To me it said the teacher was failing since she easily got it when explained a different way.  It was clearly a failure of the teacher.  But, still does that mean the teacher was bad if he/she got through to most of the others with the same technique?
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I feel your pain.  I have explained math to my daughter in a way I understand, I am in a scientific field and use advanced math a lot, and then she gets it and can get the right answer.  Then the teacher marked her paper down because she didn't do it the way the teacher taught.  Hard to back up the teacher when getting the right answer and understanding why isn't part of the goal.  Maybe the rest of the class got it, maybe they didn't, but it's hard to not criticize a teacher who tells your kid you told them the "wrong way" to get the right answer.  I feel like challenging the teacher to a math knowledge test, but again I try to back them up.

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I guess what I am saying is that teaching is not exacting and concrete and able to be simplified to one test.  Obviously, tests matter, but they are not the end all be all of whether a teacher is at fault or the student.

I think that is why it is important to have a good principal that was a great teacher working with their staff on what their strengths and weaknesses are.  Appraisals and comparing test scores should just be one measurable.  When the principal sees a teacher that is failing, they should work with them, and if they can't improve move them on to a new career.
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