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Will Sweat

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2012, 02:26:45 PM »

Funny, I haven't heard anything of it.  No media outlets are talking about it.  No conservative christian groups are talking about it.  I haven't heard a thing about from ANYONE about Willards religion.


This isn't correct.  Current TV just did an hour long special on the Mormon Church - I watched it.  I was not the most complementary of pieces. 

Is it possible that Gov. Romney does not talk about his faith because it is his personal relationship and he does not feel the need to proselytize?  He does very obviously live his life within the traditions of his faith and as he appears to be a law abiding citizen, good husband and father - I am happy for that - irrespective of what religious denomination he follows (or does not follow for that matter). 


Willard wants to take away womens rights and put the middle class into indentured servitude.   


What women's right has Gov. Romney advocated taking away and is there a connection to his Church regarding this philosophy if it exist?  If it is abortion, then many faiths see abortion as wrong - including those of Pres. Obama, or at least when he attended Rev. Wright's church - I can't speak to the doctrine of the current church he and his family attend. 

Admittedly, Pres. Kennedy was very progressive in his management of the government although his own personal faith was conservative.  Why do you not think that Gov. Romney could manage the same way?  Did have have a history of stripping away women's rights as the CEO of Bain Capital or of infringing on women's rights as the Gov. of Mass?  You seem to change narratives when you throw out that Pres. Kennedy was a "good human being that believed in human rights".  The implication is that Gov. Romney must not be - how so?  Has he violated anyones human rights or has he advocated the denial of someones human rights by a particular policy? 

How would the middle class be put into servitude?  I am not sure I understand this accusation. 

Then again I'm not sure if the church would be welcoming to a 40-something single female who has never been married.

Nah - I am not Mormon, but, I bet they would welcome you if you wanted to learn and approached the Church and it's teachings / history with an unbiased attitude.  They seem like pretty fair people. 
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Forsythia

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2012, 02:37:12 PM »

This isn't correct.  Current TV just did an hour long special on the Mormon Church - I watched it.  I was not the most complementary of pieces. 

Is it possible that Gov. Romney does not talk about his faith because it is his personal relationship and he does not feel the need to proselytize?  He does very obviously live his life within the traditions of his faith and as he appears to be a law abiding citizen, good husband and father - I am happy for that - irrespective of what religious denomination he follows (or does not follow for that matter).

Some of us don't have cable.  All I get is OTA TV so I didn't see it.  I know for sure it hasn't been on any of the major networks.

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What women's right has Gov. Romney advocated taking away and is there a connection to his Church regarding this philosophy if it exist?  If it is abortion, then many faiths see abortion as wrong - including those of Pres. Obama, or at least when he attended Rev. Wright's church - I can't speak to the doctrine of the current church he and his family attend. 

Admittedly, Pres. Kennedy was very progressive in his management of the government although his own personal faith was conservative.  Why do you not think that Gov. Romney could manage the same way?  Did have have a history of stripping away women's rights as the CEO of Bain Capital or of infringing on women's rights as the Gov. of Mass?  You seem to change narratives when you throw out that Pres. Kennedy was a "good human being that believed in human rights".  The implication is that Gov. Romney must not be - how so?  Has he violated anyones human rights or has he advocated the denial of someones human rights by a particular policy?

His approach to health care is the one thing that stands out to me.  It has nothing to do with his personal faith.  When he was governor of Mass, he did a lot of good things.  I really liked the guy then, but the republican party got their claws in and he had to flip flop on his stance.  To be honest, he was a humanitarian, but politics makes strange bedfellows. 

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How would the middle class be put into servitude?  I am not sure I understand this accusation. 

If you look at the economic policy Romney has in place it will essentially destroy the middle class.  Today he spoke about taking away deductions for mortgage interest from blue collar workers.

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Nah - I am not Mormon, but, I bet they would welcome you if you wanted to learn and approached the Church and it's teachings / history with an unbiased attitude.  They seem like pretty fair people.

We shall see......we shall see....
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Will Sweat

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2012, 02:54:23 PM »

His approach to health care is the one thing that stands out to me.  It has nothing to do with his personal faith.  When he was governor of Mass, he did a lot of good things.  I really liked the guy then, but the republican party got their claws in and he had to flip flop on his stance.  To be honest, he was a humanitarian, but politics makes strange bedfellows. 

If you look at the economic policy Romney has in place it will essentially destroy the middle class.  Today he spoke about taking away deductions for mortgage interest from blue collar workers.


I agree in that Gov. Romney, based upon his charitable giving is a humanitarian or is of that belief. 

I don't know why he did not "embrace" the fact that as Gov. of Mass., he helped create a State Health Care policy - which, I believe is the right venue - control at a local / smaller government. 

I don't believe the Mass. Health Care he signed into law limited anyones rights and it appears we agree on this. 

All politicians "flip-flop" during an election cycle.  50 years ago this would have went unseen as the regional reporting would not have picked up on it.  Now - not so much. 

I think the question is what is at his core and how has he shown leadership in the past?  For Gov. Romney - I think the answer is clear - he is a moderate and ran his company that way and so too did he as the Gov. of Mass., when he had a Democrat controlled legislature.  I am not a Mass. fan (only because I hate the Celtics - although Aerosmith is from there too . . . :-). . .) but looking at what I can find on-line seems he was pretty "middle of the road" and "played well with others" - i.e. good spirit of cooperation.  I admire that - even if I disagree with his positions. 

I think that it is OK to discuss any and all changes in tax policy so until an actual position is put out, on paper, I am not sure that this is bad.   

We agreed that Gov. Romney did some "good" things while leading Mass.  I would think this would mean that he did not place the middle class into servitude while in office so what are his specific policies that you believe would do that now? 
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Reason

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2012, 03:49:37 PM »

Most Christians probably don't follow the Jesus of the Bible, and they most certainly don't follow the historical Jesus, who probably didn't believe what Christianity of today teaches. But that's a whole topic in itself.

If believing strange things causes people to live peaceful lives, then whatever, believe it, but the belief is laughable. Early Mormonism wasn't a laughing matter. It was evil in its teaching and actions. Joseph Smith wasn't shot to death in his 30's because he was a good and just man.


Early Mormonism on blacks.

Early Mormons were racists too. Smith and Young taught blacks were cursed and an inferior race, and any woman that bred with them was to be killed.

"You see some classes of the human family that are black are uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, and seemingly without the blessing of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.. Cain slew his brother.. And the Lord put a mark on him, which is a flat nose and a black skin." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290)

"Shall I tell you the law of the God in regard to the African race? If the white who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110)


Smith taught that people lived on the moon and that there was life in the sun.

Here's Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a prophet. As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do, that they live generally to near the age of a 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style. In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and–to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes. (Young Woman’s Journal, Volume 3, pages 263-264, 1892) Brigham Young

So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized. Every planet in its first rude, organic state receives not the glory of God upon it, but is opaque; but when celestialized, every planet that God brings into existence is a body of light, but not till then. Christ is the light of this planet." (Journal of Discourses Vol. 13, p.271.) Joseph Smith


Joseph Smith the con-artist busted.

Smith believed he had seer stones from the Bible's Urim and Thummim. In 1828, he had Martin Harris write down the words of the Book of Mormon that came to him, while he had his head in his hat looking at a seer stone. Harris's wife was skeptical, so she hid the 116 pages Harris had written for Smith, to see if he could rewrite them verbatim and prove to be inspired by God. Smith lost it! He said he had done a great evil in letting these pages be lost and provoked the wrath of God upon himself. He said God would not give him those pages again. Clearly, this guy was a con-artist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_116_pages


You cannot enter heaven without Joseph Smith's consent.

"...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).

Jesus said he was the Way, but now you need Joseph Smith too. Just like Islam says if you deny Mohammad as prophet you perish.


Those who deny polygamy are damned.

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266).

And, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).


I could go on and on about how strange Mormonism is, and show more absurd belief, like how God came in the flesh to have sex with Mary, how they baptize for their dead, how they wear magical under garments, how God told Abraham to lie, and so on and so on and so on.


I'll end this post with my favorite Joseph Smith quote:

"When I have proved that I am right, and get all the world subdued under me, I think I shall deserve something." Joseph Smith -The New York Spectator, September 23, 1843

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sammy

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2012, 03:52:48 PM »

Welcome, X, er I mean Reason. Took you long enough!
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excelsior

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2012, 09:06:23 PM »

  Today he spoke about taking away deductions for mortgage interest from blue collar workers.


How is it possible to target the income tax deductions of blue collar workers?
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T-M-T

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2012, 09:36:50 PM »

I'm not a fan of any organized religion, but Mormonism is especially crazy.  We really don't know much about Jesus or Martin Luther because they lived so long ago, but Joseph Smith lived here in the United States relatively recently.  There are newspapers and court records that confirm he was a con artist and petty criminal.  He was a "money digger" who claimed to have some type of special knowledge to find where hidden money was buried and cheated people out of money.  After that scam failed, he came up with the "Golden Plates" story to con people into believing an angel appeared to him.  As Reason suggested, just Wikipedia "116 pages" and you'll clearly see what a scam Smith's whole story is.  The fact that millions of people are gullible enough not to be able to see through this is pretty incredible. 
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MM1

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2012, 09:39:15 PM »

 :)
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Forsythia

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2012, 07:49:58 AM »

How is it possible to target the income tax deductions of blue collar workers?

I posted a link to an article in the Mitt Romney thread.
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Ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.  The rest of us have to put up with you idiots.

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MM1

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2012, 08:28:50 AM »

What would your interpretation of the link you posted be that would answer the question?


Or don't you know, other than cut and paste articles and portray that you know the answer. 



Can you answer the question in your own words?

Just asking.  :)
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excelsior

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2012, 08:33:32 AM »

I posted a link to an article in the Mitt Romney thread.


Is this the link that you are referring to?

Romney To Middle Class Ohioans: Don't Expect Too Much Tax Relief From Me
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/26/romney-ohio-taxes_n_1915949.html?1348669820
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“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”  ~ Socrates

Forsythia

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2012, 10:19:43 AM »

Yes it was.

MM1 I use articles to back up my opinions only.  The way I interpreted what Willard said was that he was looking for new ways to decrease the deficit without hurting his buddies.   Basically his quote stated that he would treat small businesses like families and he would be willing to remove mortgage interest deductions to pay for tax breaks to the "job creators".
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Ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.  The rest of us have to put up with you idiots.

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MM1

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2012, 10:39:36 AM »

Nah.  Still sounds like partisan sound bites and generalities to me.

I take it you had no problem with Nancy Pelosi's observation that, "We'll have to vote on it and take a look later at what it actually says".   ;D


That's ok.  I really didn't think you understood the details enough to site what backs up your opinion.    That's ok, really. 


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excelsior

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2012, 12:31:39 PM »

Yes it was.



Here is what I see in the article that relates to your statement.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/26/romney-ohio-taxes_n_1915949.html?1348669820

To date, Romney has said that he will only eliminate deductions and exemptions above a certain income level. He hasn't said what that income level would be. But when asked whether he would make $100,000 the cutoff, he said that he considered "middle income" to be "$200,000 to $250,000 and less." (One of the few Romney-backing studies has said that the only way his tax plan adds up is if he eliminates deductions and exemptions above that $100,000 income level).

Romney's overall tax plan, which calls for a 20 tax cut across the board for all income brackets, and which Romney insists will remain deficit neutral.


Romney's proposal appears to be reduce all tax brackets by 20% and eliminate deductions/exemptions above 100K (lowest number presented in article).  Could you explain how you feel this proposal would target blue collar workers' income tax deductions?
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"The beginning of wisdom is a definition of terms." ~ Socrates

"No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude." ~ Karl Popper

"What vitiates entirely the socialists economic critique of capitalism is their failure to grasp the sovereignty of the consumers in the market economy." ~ Ludwig von Mises

“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”  ~ Socrates

Forsythia

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Re: Mormonism Does NOT Follow the Jesus of the Bible
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2012, 03:26:09 PM »

Nah.  Still sounds like partisan sound bites and generalities to me.

I take it you had no problem with Nancy Pelosi's observation that, "We'll have to vote on it and take a look later at what it actually says".   ;D


That's ok.  I really didn't think you understood the details enough to site what backs up your opinion.    That's ok, really.

You're right, the 1% is there to look out for the little guys.....
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Ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant.  The rest of us have to put up with you idiots.

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"A christian telling an atheist he is going to hell is about as scary as a small child telling an adult they won't get any presents from santa." - R. Gervais
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