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Poll

Do you want a constitutional amendment to approve international bridges or tunnels

Yes
- 4 (28.6%)
No
- 10 (71.4%)

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The Fuzz

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Proposal 6
« on: September 29, 2012, 07:44:25 AM »

I want to prevent myself from doing last minute studying well before the November election so I've decided to start on number 6 first.

First thing I hate is the stupid commercials coming from bridge opposition side....poor acting and all.

I'm leaning towards voting against passage (against Moroun) based on what I have read.  I thought this clip did a good job in explaining the issues, pro's and con's.

Please don't let this turn into a Right/Left or Democrat/Republican hate thread (I know I may be asking too much) because I don't want to lock it, but am interested in seeing other opinions.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120923/BUSINESS06/309230167/Experts-say-new-international-bridge-won-t-cost-Michigan-taxpayers?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

Claims that have bombarded Michigan voters for months that taxpayers will be stuck with the bill for a multi-billion dollar bridge to Canada are not based in reality, said three independent law professors asked by the Free Press to review an international Crossing Agreement signed in June.

The advertising campaign from the People Should Decide, a group financially backed by Ambassador Bridge owner Manuel (Matty) Moroun and his family, has pushed that consistent message in several rounds of anti-bridge ads that are misleading, said two advertising experts who reviewed a recently released ad, also at the request of the Free Press.

Jennifer Henderson, a law professor at University of Detroit Mercy, John Mogk, a law professor at Wayne State University, and Marcia Valiante of the University of Windsor said the Crossing Agreement between Gov. Rick Snyder and Canadian Transport Minister Denis Lebel is crystal clear that Canada pays for the bridge and then recoups Michigan's share, about $550 million, from future bridge tolls -- not from Michigan taxpayers.

"It very clearly says it's not funded by Michigan. ... And throughout the agreement those words are repeated," Henderson said.

Even so, the two ad experts say the anti-bridge message might be resonating because it's working like political attack ads -- thumping a single message even if it's short on context or supportable facts.

The People Should Decide says its analysis of bridge finances is sound and that approval of Snyder's New International Trade Crossing, and other projects like it, should be put to citizen votes. They say its consultant has determined costs for the bridge will skyrocket and that other "hidden costs" will saddle Michigan taxpayers with unwanted expenses for the next 50 years.

Recent ads claim the new bridge will end up costing $8 billion -- nearly four times the official estimate -- and force Michigan to lay off police and teachers and even tap senior citizen pensions to cover the cost.

"Will the ad be effective? Probably. Is it legal? Probably. Is it ethical or fair? Probably not," said Hugh Cannon, a professor of advertising at Wayne State University.
Ballot issue in play

The Free Press asked the local professors for their opinions in light of a Moroun-backed ballot referendum, which, if approved, would create a constitutional requirement that any new international bridge or tunnel get a statewide and local vote before Michigan could spend any money. The referendum language says it would apply retroactively, impacting the NITC, to be built 2 miles downstream from the Ambassador. That issue, however, likely would be decided in court if the referendum passes, legal experts have said.

Mickey Blashfield, director of government relations for the Moroun business network and head of the People Should Decide effort, points out that the Crossing Agreement contains a clause that allows the terms to be changed in the future, which, he says, could mean a reshuffling of financial responsibilities. And a reworking of that agreement, he said, is more likely in the event of construction cost overruns and shortfalls in future toll revenue, according to the recent study paid for by the Moroun-backed group.

"Different experts have tackled this cost issue from different angles, but the one thing they all seem to agree on is the fact that there's no such thing as a free bridge," said Blashfield, whose group commissioned O'Keefe & Associates financial consulting firm of Bloomfield Hills to examine the new bridge project's financial structure. "With so much on the line, the people deserve the right to decide how public money is best spent."

Major corporations, including Detroit's three auto companies, Honda, Toyota and various auto suppliers, back the NITC project, plus multiple business groups across the state, including the three largest chamber organizations -- Detroit Regional Chamber, Grand Rapids Chamber and Traverse City Area Chamber of Commerce. They call the bridge a boon for Michigan's economic future, saying traffic across the NITC inevitably will increase as the economy in Michigan and Ontario expands and the advantages of the new modern bridge become apparent to users.

Brad Williams, vice president of government relations for the Detroit chamber, said Detroit needs another international crossing option because drivers who cross the Ambassador Bridge have to contend with 18 stoplights in Windsor.

He said many European goods making their way into the U.S. arrive to Canada at its deepwater port in Halifax, Nova Scotia, but the trucks carrying those goods need a more efficient way to cross the border into the U.S.that doesn't involve navigating Windsor traffic.

"Detroit is a logical choice. There's a real opportunity here to build out a transportation, distribution and logistics industry," Williams said. "The auto industry is completely integrated between Ontario and Michigan."
Checking the claims

The Michigan Truth Squad, an effort connected with the nonprofit Center for Michigan think tank, issued a "flagrant foul," its toughest verdict, against the People Should Decide's claims made in advertisements, mainly that Michigan taxpayers will end up paying for the bridge and that the state's debt load will increase because of it. The group characterizes a flagrant foul as a "statement that distorts or incorrectly states a fact."

The group explains its verdict on its website: "These ads repeat claims, or advance new variants of old claims, that do not match available documents. The agreement with Canada puts the financial onus on Michigan's neighbor, not Michigan, for paying the bills, including interest. Since Michigan is not appropriating construction dollars, no dollars are being diverted away from other public uses. Michigan is not increasing its debt load with the NITC project."

The group said it is evenhanded in its assessments and looks at political commercials and speeches, issue advertisements, news releases, political websites and white papers. The group examines claims suggested by the public.

There have been several rounds of Moroun-backed ads that all push the idea that the cost of the bridge to be covered by Canada will somehow backfire on Michigan taxpayers. The Moroun-backed group has spent an estimated $10 million so far on the ads.

A recent ad called "Tough Choices," says the bridge will become so expensive that Michigan would be forced to lose "quality teachers, cops on the beat, firefighters and EMTs," and to reduce pension payments to seniors.

"Real cuts hurting real people," the voice-over says. "Now that we know how much this bridge could cost us, shouldn't the people decide?"

Cannon of WSU said the ad and others like it are dangerous because they are "deliberately using misleading imagery to "push the electorate to a certain decision," which "undermines the very foundations of our political system."

At the same time, Michael Bernacchi, a professor at University of Detroit Mercy, said the ads may be effective simply because they're so bold and aggressive.

"I wouldn't like to be combating this from the other side," he said. "They're out there first. They've been out there for a considerable amount of time with a single message. It's developed a whole brand -- it's simple: 'No bridge.' "

Lt. Gov. Brian Calley, who serves as Snyder's point man on bridge issues, condemned the "Tough Choices" ad.

"Their claims keep getting more bizarre," he said. "They're throwing out numbers. I don't know what's next. One hundred billion? A trillion? They don't seem to be bound by any factual information."

New anti-NITC ads starting this week follow the same story line as the others, depicting ordinary people worrying about their finances as the expense of a new bridge looms, threatening their futures. Central to the Moroun case is the claim that Michiganders will get stuck paying for the bridge despite contractual assurances to the contrary.

The legal ties

The Free Press asked the three law professors to review the Crossing Agreement language and give their opinions about the strength of protections for Michigan taxpayers in the document.

Valiante of the University of Windsor said, "The basic concept is that Canada will pay for everything up front then will recoup those costs through tolls and other revenues."

Mogk, an expert at WSU on development issues, said, "I think it's airtight on that question."

On the first page of the agreement, it says the project will be built "with funding approved by Canada, but with no funding by the Michigan Parties. The Michigan Parties are not obligated to pay any of the costs of the new International Crossing."

And on page 30 of the agreement, it says, "The Michigan Parties shall not be required to fund any International Crossing Costs, Michigan Interchange Costs, U.S. Federal Plaza Costs, Crossing Authority Costs or International Authority Costs."

There are multiple similar references throughout the agreement.

Henderson noted that the agreement does state that the parties could amend the document in the future, which could mean some new payment scheme that might include a cost to Michigan. But she said major changes are only a theoretical possibility and not something likely to happen.
Change of heart?

Blashfield, head of the People Should Decide, contends it's more than theoretical and a likely scenario as the Canadians find themselves responsible for a bridge that cost too much and with fewer tolls than predicted to cover the tab.

He pointed out that any shortfall in tolls allows Canada to collect its amount due plus interest from future revenues, creating a snowball effect moving forward that will push up the bridge cost to more than $8 billion, according to a study commissioned by the People Should Decide from the O'Keefe & Associates financial consulting firm of Bloomfield Hills.

Patrick O'Keefe, founder and CEO of the firm, told the Free Press the figure assumes a 10% cost overrun on construction costs, a 20% shortfall on toll revenue and a 50-year time frame for the mounting debt and interest to grow.

The analysis doesn't explain how Michigan taxpayers would become responsible for the financial burden -- which, according to the crossing agreement, belongs to Canada -- nor does it assess the likelihood of toll revenues falling short.

According to the firm's website, O'Keefe "is recognized as an expert in the fields of corporate reorganization, debt restructuring, turnaround consulting, refinancing solutions, due diligence support, valuation and litigation support."

Blashfield said other "hidden costs" of the project also will burden Michigan taxpayers over the years. Among those:

• Tolls on the Blue Water Bridge that now go to Michigan will in part go to Canada in the future as some traffic diverts to the new bridge.

• Homeowners in Detroit's Delray neighborhood, where the new bridge will land, will no longer pay property taxes once they've been moved out.

• Workers employed by the Ambassador Bridge who might lose their jobs to competition from the new bridge will pay less income tax.

Backers of the new bridge respond that new commerce generated by a more modern and efficient bridge will more than make up for any incidental economic losses, including employing its own bridge operators and construction workers. The new bridge will be wider, have more modern plazas on either end and provide seamless connections to expressways on both sides of the border.

The backers, including the governor's office, point out that Delray is an economically downtrodden area with high unemployment, and most residents there are happy to be bought out so they can move.

Carl Smith, 60, favors construction of a new bridge, even if it means he will be forced to move from the Delray neighborhood where he has lived most of his life.

"It's going to create jobs. It's going to create jobs during construction and it's going to create jobs when it opens," he said.
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Professor H

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2012, 08:09:30 AM »

I laugh when I see the adds, as it is a desperate attempt to maintain a Monopoly,
but I can see where they may be confusing to others and even tug on the ole message of we should have a say...
We did have a say, and our legislature decided to stay out of the bridge building - so Canada took the lead.

The add showing a Troy City Firefighter claiming it will take money away from public workers really is odd,  Troy has a volunteer fire department, so that person has to have another job - that could be affected by the increased traffic with Canada.

I'm curous as to the amount of money they make on the bridge - for them to put up round the clock adds against any competition.
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Professor H

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2012, 08:10:47 AM »

I'll have to check - is this one of those where you have to vote opposite of what you think you are voting for as well?   
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lilly

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2012, 08:51:08 AM »

I believe the vote is for whether or not to add a constitutional amendment that would require the vote go to the people before any agreements are made.

Therefore, vote yes if you like Maroun's bridge, and no if you want it built where Canada says it will pay for it.
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The Fuzz

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2012, 09:36:36 AM »

I believe the vote is for whether or not to add a constitutional amendment that would require the vote go to the people before any agreements are made.

Therefore, vote yes if you like Maroun's bridge, and no if you want it built where Canada says it will pay for it.

Yea, that is my understanding as well lilly.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Michigan_International_Bridge_Initiative,_Proposal_6_%282012%29


 Text of measure

The official ballot text reads as follows:[3]

    PROPOSAL 12-1
    A PROPOSAL TO AMEND THE STATE CONSTITUTION REGARDING CONSTRUCTION OF INTERNATIONAL BRIDGES AND TUNNELS

    This proposal would:

        Require the approval of a majority of voters at a statewide election and in each municipality where “new international bridges or tunnels for motor vehicles” are to be located before the State of Michigan may expend state funds or resources for acquiring land, designing, soliciting bids for, constructing, financing, or promoting new international bridges or tunnels.

        Create a definition of "new international bridges or tunnels for motor vehicles" that means, "any bridge or tunnel which is not open to the public and serving traffic as of January 1, 2012."

    Should this proposal be approved?
    YES __
    NO ____

Background

The Detroit International Bridge Co. filed the measure in response to a proposed project aimed at constructing a new international bridge increasing the number of lanes connecting Detroit to Windsor in Canada. The project, called the New International Trade Crossing (NITC), would compete for traffic with the Detroit International Bridge Co.'s current bridge, the Ambassador Bridge.[4]
Support

The Detroit International Bridge Co. has released a number of ads either supporting the amendment or targeting the New International Trade Crossing. However, the group Michigan Truth Squad, part of the bipartisan Center for Michigan, has rated all the ads "Flagrant Foul," questioning the truthfulness of their contents.[4]
Campaign contributions

In Michigan campaign finance information related to ballot measures is organized by ballot question committees. The following data was obtained from the state Campaign Finance Committee:

Committee info:
Committee    Amount raised    Amount spent
The People Should Decide    $4,657,500.00    $4,588,552.97[5]
Total    $4,657,500.00    $4,588,552.97
Opposition

As a supporter of the new bridge which would compete with Detroit International Bridge Co., Governor Rick Snyder opposes this amendment which would seriously hamper plans on the new bridge if passed.[4]
Opponents

    Gov. Rick Snyder
    State Rep. Rashida Tlaib[4]
    Michigan Chamber of Commerce[6]

Arguments

    In a press release published in September 2012, Gov. Snyder said, "While the proposal is intended to protect one company's monopoly on truck crossings between Detroit and Canada, it was sloppily written and jeopardizes ANY bridge under construction today that won't be completed by January 1, 2012, or any bridge built thereafter."[7]
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Baggins

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2012, 09:49:12 AM »

I believe the vote is for whether or not to add a constitutional amendment that would require the vote go to the people before any agreements are made.

Therefore, vote yes if you like Maroun's bridge, and no if you want it built where Canada says it will pay for it.


Yep, you got it... ;)
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excelsior

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2012, 09:53:14 AM »

I laugh when I see the adds, as it is a desperate attempt to maintain a Monopoly,
but I can see where they may be confusing to others and even tug on the ole message of we should have a say...
We did have a say, and our legislature decided to stay out of the bridge building - so Canada took the lead.

The add showing a Troy City Firefighter claiming it will take money away from public workers really is odd,  Troy has a volunteer fire department, so that person has to have another job - that could be affected by the increased traffic with Canada.

I'm curous as to the amount of money they make on the bridge - for them to put up round the clock adds against any competition.

Moroun also owns a trucking company.

http://www.centraltransportint.com/

Moroun's ownership of the bridge gives him monopoly on trucking costs to and from Windsor over his competition.   It is a sweet deal to add a fixed cost to your competition that you can avoid.
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Baggins

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2012, 10:05:25 AM »

Another thing that bothers me is the fact they want to use foreign steel...I just can't accept that with our economy in the state it is...Buy American damn it!


Quote
I'm curous as to the amount of money they make on the bridge - for them to put up round the clock adds against any competition.

That's just political hogwash, it's a common practice to install fear of a fictitious accusation, makes it seem more real to the uninformed.
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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2012, 10:48:51 AM »

I don't know how anybody thinks the people should decide.  I don't understand any of the economics involved with building the bridge and then what the bridge will do for increased economics for either the US or Canada.  This decision should be made by experts.  Yes it will create jobs like all government projects.  Except the taxpayers subsidize each of those jobs.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 10:52:37 AM by blue2 »
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Monroe Native

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2012, 06:39:41 PM »

Windsor and Canada is sick and tired of having all the truck traffic go through their city on surface streets.

They WONT connect the 401 to that bridge because they would have to obliterate a big chunk of city to do it, so they need the bridge to the South to put a connector where it makes sense.

Maroun COULD have bought the land at the South site and built a new bridge there, but that isn't his way.

Maroun DID make a muck of the Gateway Project.

Maroun IS a greedy and apparently unethical prick from what I can tell.  Look at the old railway station.  He is REALLY helping make Detroit look nice when that is the first landmark you see coming into town.

If Canada wants to get the truck traffic off Windsor streets - and they are willing to pay for the vast bulk of the new bridge that we WILL need at some point - Lets go for it!  They are a SOVEREIGN nation.  If they want to build a bridge they should have at least as much standing as Maroun.

What we DO need to change in the constitution is making it so EASY for any IDIOT or SPECIAL INTEREST with deep pockets to get ballot initiatives on the ballot.

What the HECK do you have an executive and legislative branch for if our motto is "let the people decide" by a bunch of special interests.
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lilly

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2012, 06:51:03 PM »

Windsor and Canada is sick and tired of having all the truck traffic go through their city on surface streets.

They WONT connect the 401 to that bridge because they would have to obliterate a big chunk of city to do it, so they need the bridge to the South to put a connector where it makes sense.

Maroun COULD have bought the land at the South site and built a new bridge there, but that isn't his way.

Maroun DID make a muck of the Gateway Project.

Maroun IS a greedy and apparently unethical prick from what I can tell.  Look at the old railway station.  He is REALLY helping make Detroit look nice when that is the first landmark you see coming into town.

If Canada wants to get the truck traffic off Windsor streets - and they are willing to pay for the vast bulk of the new bridge that we WILL need at some point - Lets go for it!  They are a SOVEREIGN nation.  If they want to build a bridge they should have at least as much standing as Maroun.

What we DO need to change in the constitution is making it so EASY for any IDIOT or SPECIAL INTEREST with deep pockets to get ballot initiatives on the ballot.

What the HECK do you have an executive and legislative branch for if our motto is "let the people decide" by a bunch of special interests.
Hey we agree on something. Time for a drink.
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marilyn.monroe

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2012, 07:12:12 PM »

Windsor and Canada is sick and tired of having all the truck traffic go through their city on surface streets.

They WONT connect the 401 to that bridge because they would have to obliterate a big chunk of city to do it, so they need the bridge to the South to put a connector where it makes sense.

Maroun COULD have bought the land at the South site and built a new bridge there, but that isn't his way.

Maroun DID make a muck of the Gateway Project.

Maroun IS a greedy and apparently unethical prick from what I can tell.  Look at the old railway station.  He is REALLY helping make Detroit look nice when that is the first landmark you see coming into town.

If Canada wants to get the truck traffic off Windsor streets - and they are willing to pay for the vast bulk of the new bridge that we WILL need at some point - Lets go for it!  They are a SOVEREIGN nation.  If they want to build a bridge they should have at least as much standing as Maroun.

What we DO need to change in the constitution is making it so EASY for any IDIOT or SPECIAL INTEREST with deep pockets to get ballot initiatives on the ballot.

What the HECK do you have an executive and legislative branch for if our motto is "let the people decide" by a bunch of special interests.
I almost feel sorry for the people of Windsor. Maybe the citizens of Detroit could get together with the citizens of Windsor and have a town hall. Letting the two local governments work out the issue might be the best idea yet, since they are the ones who have to live with it in their neighborhoods.
I don't know what the hell the full-time overpaid underqualified legislators do. The executive is seizing more power, like executives do.
I have no confidence in the Michigan voters! They voted to use human beings as lab rats.

Moroun also owns a trucking company.

http://www.centraltransportint.com/

Moroun's ownership of the bridge gives him monopoly on trucking costs to and from Windsor over his competition.   It is a sweet deal to add a fixed cost to your competition that you can avoid.
There's two bridges an hour North of Detroit if they don't like the "two" in Detroit. I haven't heard anyone complaining about being denied fair crossing by Moroun.

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Monroe Native

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2012, 07:17:22 PM »

Snyder already took care of the new bridge with Canada.

A binding agreement is signed and appears to be in place. 

Since no State monies are to be used on the construction the bought off legislature was a non-factor.

If I have to say so Snyder REALLY was a good neighbor to Canada and did the right thing under the circumstances.

I don't see a court stopping the new bridge project even if this initiative DOES pass.

Maybe they could get the case assigned to the judge that held Maddy in contempt and threw him in jail.
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blue2

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2012, 07:25:59 PM »

Like I said  I don't understand all the goings on with the bridge.  I've not been following it.  But if the major benefactor is Canada and they want to  pay for it, let them.
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ell

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Re: Proposal 6
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2012, 07:41:33 PM »

I don't think the voters need to be involved in these types of decisions.  If someone could explain to me why we should have to vote on major constructions projects, I'd be willing to listen to rational arguments, although I don't really fault Maroun for trying to protect his profits.  I guess the question is whether a private entity should control an international crossing, which I would think would come under federal jurisdiction.
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