MonroeTalks.com > Categories > Politics and Government > Proposal 3


Poll

Proposal 3 as written

Yes
- 6 (25%)
No
- 18 (75%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: November 02, 2012, 03:29:57 AM


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 13   Go Down

Author Topic: Proposal 3  (Read 4592 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Frenchfry

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27569
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2012, 01:30:25 PM »

How did I prove your point?

Do I need to type slower and use smaller words?

Did you ride in a short bus by any chance?

 :o
A simple citation would've sufficed....but instead you've been exposed as the liar you are.
Logged
WARNING! Reading Republican/Conservative/Tea Party comments will lower your intelligence quotient!

The new motto of the obstructionist Republican Party/Conservative-right/Tea Party...refuse to legislate, just investigate.

lilly

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 934
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2012, 01:38:59 PM »

If that passes and gets enforced our rates will go up.  That is a fact.
Yep. If you pay $100 a month for your electricity now, next year you would pay $101, the following year you would pay $102.01, the following year you would pay $103.02.

Oh the horror!!!
Do I need to type slower and use smaller words?
Did you know that by using such a statement, you are showing your own ignorance and insulting yourself, not your intended victim?

By all means continue making a fool of yourself, it seems to be your strong point.
Logged

ell

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4518
  • Nothing beats a good paddle
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2012, 02:18:41 PM »

Wind turbines require a lot of maintenance, so the power from them won't be "free".  I've read several different sources that rate them from 1MW up to around 3.5MW.  Fermi II generates around 1100.  So using the highest rated wind turbine, it would take in the neighborhood of 314 towers to equal Fermi's output.  That is providing the wind is at optimum speed.  GE, which provides wind turbines, states that moderate wind requirements would be 14.3 mph and excellent would be at least 16.7 mph  (http://www.ge-energy.com/content/multimedia/_files/downloads/wind_energy_basics.pdf).  Plus there doesn't seem to be much desire to have a wind farm in many areas.  Land has been rezoned in the Traverse City area to hamper wind farm development as has been the case locally out in the Riga area.  I still maintain that if this was such an efficient and cheap way to produce electricity, power companies would be rushing to build farms rather than investing and re-investing in current technology.  They are after all about making money for the shareholders, as is any other company.
Logged
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thouroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming WOO HOO what a ride!

lilly

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 934
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2012, 02:21:56 PM »

I am just wondering, how much was the cost factor in nuclear power when it first started up, and how much more efficient have they become over time? Didn't we have to pay more for the electricity because of the start up of these stations?
Logged

The Fuzz

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 13754
  • Fish Lake Michigan!
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2012, 10:36:55 AM »

I'm leaning, not completely decided, towards voting No to change the constitution for this.  I initially was leaning towards Yes, but the more I have read and watched posts here the more I am moving towards the way I am going.

I do support the intent of researching and moving towards alternative energy sources, just not convinced that the constitution needs to state it.  There is current legislation (not a constitution change) that by 2015 that renewable energy total in Michigan be at 10%...which it appears that target will be met.  The additional 15% to hit the 25% goal could be legislated the same way.....thus allowing this to be handled by the legislature versus another constitutional amendment vote to change it once again.

I can see a lot of road blocks in the way if it were to pass too.....primarily Oprah's big hind end, and other obstructions that could ultimately lead to failure of the initiative's goal to be met.

Good little clip in The Free Press this morning.  I think they usually do a good job in presenting the pros and cons for the most part.

http://www.freep.com/article/20121007/NEWS15/310070232/Proposal-3-would-put-state-out-front-in-dash-to-renewable-energy?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

Proposal 3 would put state out front in dash to renewable energy

The campaign ads for Proposal 3 on the Nov. 6 ballot could lead a voter to conclude that its passage would bring Michigan's reliance on renewable energy sources for its power in line with forward-thinking states across the nation.

What they don't say is that it also would make Michigan the only state to put a standard in its constitution or that the requirement to produce 25% of its electricity from renewable sources by 2025 would put Michigan, with a few other states, ahead of the renewable energy bandwagon.

Michigan has been at the head of the class before on environmental policy. Consider the state's 10-cent bottle deposit law passed in the 1970s. And the state already is among 29 with renewable-energy policies in place, according to the U.S. Department of Energy. Public Act 295, passed in 2008, requires 10% of the state's energy from renewable sources by 2015.

Proponents of Proposal 3 -- a coalition of environmental advocates and businesses that would benefit from the change proposed by those who signed petitions to put it on the ballot -- tout it as a jobs and economic-investment generator that will benefit the environment at minimal cost to ratepayers.

Opponents challenge the economic assumptions and suggest waiting until 2015 to see through the challenge of meeting the less ambitious 10% renewables requirement.

The campaign is well financed on both sides. Proponents are running television ads stressing public-health and environmental benefits and that the requirement could lead to tens of thousands of jobs -- though more than one-third would be temporary construction positions. Meanwhile, utilities have taken the fight directly to ratepayers with e-mails and letters; for example, a letter to shareholders of DTE, which provides electricity and natural gas to 3 million customers in southeast Michigan, recently sent its shareholders a letter that said, "[W]e are concerned that the mandate's $10-to-$12 billion cost will raise (customers') rates faster than they can afford."

Michigan Energy Michigan Jobs, the group behind the proposal, says it is pushing for a change to the state constitution, rather than advocating a change in state law, because politicians are beholden to energy companies and big oil and unlikely to agree to a change to increase the state's reliance on renewable-energy. Advocates argue that the constitution has already been amended about 30 times in the past half century.

"DTE and Consumers Energy went kicking and screaming to the currently paltry standard of 10%," said Proposal 3 spokesman Mark Fisk. "This is too important for Lansing politicians to decide. We need to let the people decide."

But, as the Clean Affordable Renewable Energy (CARE) for Michigan Coalition, an anti-Proposal 3 group, pointed out, the current standard -- 10% by 2015 -- was passed by the politicians, who are elected by the people who happen to be ratepayers. The lawmakers the proposal's advocates disparage would have to pass laws to implement the proposed standard and deal with non-compliance issues. They also argue that the renewable energy landscape is evolving as new technology is developed and putting a standard in the constitution would make it difficult to react to those changes.

"The only way to change something in the constitution is you have to go back to the voters, which hypothetically is not impossible, but as a practical matter, it doesn't give you the flexibility you really need for something as complex as energy policy," said Ken Sikkema, senior policy fellow at Public Sector Consultants, which has done Proposal 3 analysis for CARE.

According to Barry Rabe, a professor of public and environmental policy at the University of Michigan, it's not unusual for a state (Texas is one instance.) to change its renewable energy standard before the current one is reached. But other states haven't used their constitutions to mandate such change.

Jobs, investment

Those in favor of Proposal 3 estimates passing this measure will translate into 94,000 jobs; about 10,500 more than a Michigan State University study they like to quote forecasts. The difference is based on the expectation that at least 50% of manufacturing jobs related to the passage of the so-called 25x25 proposal will be in Michigan. The 74,500 new jobs MSU researchers calculated approximately 31,500 construction jobs.

The group also says Proposal 3 will mean $10.3 billion in new investments in the state.

Opponents dispute the jobs number and cite a U.S. Department of Energy study that puts the total number of wind-energy jobs for the entire nation at about the same amount as those proponents predict for just Michigan.

Rabe said the question of job creation in other states has been hotly debated: "In other states, we have tended to see extreme estimates on one side and extreme underestimates on the other side and the reality in between."

He also noted that the MSU study uses the term "job years," which means one job lasting 30 years would be counted as 30, not one.

A report by the nonpartisan Citizens Research Council of Michigan found, "By reducing the dependence on coal, the proposed amendment would reduce the amount of resources paid to other states to purchase coal and would reduce the cost of transporting coal from other states. Money not paid for the purchase or transportation of coal could remain in Michigan to be put to other purposes."
What will it cost?

According to proponents, the average Michigan household will not pay more than $1.25 a month and could even translate into lower energy bills in the long run. The ballot language limits annual electric utility rate increases to 1%.

Opponents say that rate cap isn't guaranteed and that it'll cost individual customers thousands of dollars to cover what they estimate is a $12.5 billion price tag.

"It is ludicrous to think you're going to pay for that with a $1.25 a month," said Sikkema.

And the arithmetic could be wrong anyway, according to the CRC. Analysts for the group concluded the federal government's approximately 30% tax credit for wind turbines is set to expire at the end of this year and there's "considerable uncertainty" in Washington over whether it'll continue.

Then again, the CRC said, "Once renewable energy facilities are in place, the generation of electricity from renewable sources has the potential to temper the increase in electricity prices."

If standard can't be met

Michigan Energy Michigan Jobs says the utilities will have no problem complying with the new standards; a Michigan Public Service Commission report released in February found that all utilities "are expected to be able to meet the 10% renewable energy standard in 2015, with the exception of three."

And the group would stay together to insure none exceed the rate cap or fail to meet the 25x25 standard. If they do, the group would seek relief from the state Public Service Commission or courts.

Fisk said, "We are going to be watching the big energy companies like hawks."

CARE, though, questions why the issue of non-compliance isn't addressed in the proposal.
Environmental impact

Advocates say requiring more renewable energy translates into less pollution and cleaner air and water, which in turn reduces heart and lung disease and asthma. It also means protecting the Great Lakes.

"We're dealing with dinosaurs and Neanderthals who want to keep the status quo and keep us addicted to outdated forms of energy, like oil and coal," Fisk said. "They want to keep Michigan stuck in the past and let us fall behind 30 other states."

Opponents say Michigan's air and water are the cleanest they've been in generations.

"I don't believe you have to choose between clean air and water and the economy. In a manufacturing state like Michigan, I think you can have both," Sikkema said.
Small providers

Proposal 3 advocates say the language is flexible to provide what Fisk called "an off-ramp" for the little guys, such as municipal utilities and electricity cooperatives, which need to delay implementation.

Opponents, like Sikkema, disagree, calling it "a tremendous burden" on these providers.

The CRC called the ability of smaller energy companies to meet the 25% standards "questionable," adding, "The potential premium charged for that energy will threaten the financial position of these entities, and may in the end threaten their existence."
Placing wind farms

Michigan Energy Michigan Jobs' Fisk expects "zero" problems finding places to locate wind turbines.

CARE and Rabe anticipate resistance from communities. The whirring of wind turbines is a permanent change to the environment of rural communities. On the Canadian side of the south end of Lake St. Clair, large numbers of wind turbines have permanently changed the natural look of the lake, for example. Also, CARE fears wind farms could be built in the Great Lakes; Fisk responded that Michigan could meet the 25% standard using just 6% of its on-land wind capacity.

"It's not fair to ask voters to amend the constitution, lock in what would be another 3,000 windmills without telling people where they're going to go," said Sikkema.

Added the CRC, "The areas of Michigan that have few inhabitants are generally forests, which are not ideal locations for windmills. Very few areas that are not forests have large amounts of open space similar to the large commercial farms found in the plains states."
Logged
Support the local economy as much as possible!

Frenchfry

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27569
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2012, 11:44:29 AM »

This year, Michigan voters have a choice. Keep burning dirty coal and oil, or move Michigan to clean, renewable energy like wind and solar. Proposal 3 is supported by nurses, doctors and scientists. Vote YES on Proposal 3.

"CHOICE" Michigan Energy, Michigan Jobs
Logged
WARNING! Reading Republican/Conservative/Tea Party comments will lower your intelligence quotient!

The new motto of the obstructionist Republican Party/Conservative-right/Tea Party...refuse to legislate, just investigate.

Frenchfry

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27569
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2012, 11:45:55 AM »

Moving forward ... or falling behind? Michigan is falling behind in the clean energy race. Proposal 3 will spark new businesses and create 94,000 jobs that can't be outsourced.

"FORWARD" Michigan Energy, Michigan Jobs
Logged
WARNING! Reading Republican/Conservative/Tea Party comments will lower your intelligence quotient!

The new motto of the obstructionist Republican Party/Conservative-right/Tea Party...refuse to legislate, just investigate.

Frenchfry

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27569
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2012, 11:56:13 AM »

Michigan today is at an energy crossroads.  We can either continue to use yesterday's polluting technology that will saddle ratepayers with higher rates and chase out clean energy jobs or move toward a clean energy future that will help us lead the nation in clean energy innovations and transform our economy.
http://www.sierraclub.org/coal/mi/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



________________________________________________________________________

Coal generates 54% of our electricity, and is the single biggest air polluter in the U.S.
(actually higher in Michigan)
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/coalvswind/c01.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Renewables Now Cheaper than Coal in Michigan, Could Be $5-Billion Industry

New renewable energy generation is now cheaper than new coal generation in Michigan, and could  be a $5-billion annual industry for the economically hard-hit state.  So say two recent reports analyzing the state’s progress toward renewable energy goals.

While both findings are impressive, new renewables falling below the cost of new coal is a more important long-term trend. The analysis comes from a Michigan Public Service Commission (PSC) report detailing implementation costs of meeting the state’s 10 percent renewable energy standard.

Renewables 10% Cheaper Than Coal

New wind, biomass, landfill gas, and hydroelectric generation all cost less than new advanced-supercritical pulverized coal plants with a 40-year life cycle, according to the report. PSC staff estimated in 2009 that electricity generated from new coal plants would cost $133 per megawatt-hour (MWh), and reiterated that estimate, saying “new coal capacity would likely require significant capital costs (and potentially increase rates for customers).”

By comparison, the report finds “the cost of all renewable energy technologies is less than the coal guidepost rate” of $133/MWh, especially in the service territories of the state’s two largest utilities. The combined average levelized renewable energy contract prices for Consumers Energy and Detroit Edison from 2009-2011 are at least $12 cheaper per MWh compared to coal, and “the actual cost of renewable energy contracts submitted to the Commission to date shows a downward pricing trend.”

Clean Technica (http://s.tt/15TjS)



Competitive Costs Driving Investment

So, not only are renewables cheaper than coal, but that gap is widening, and competitive costs are driving new investment. This trend is shown by the $100 million in advanced energy projects investments the PSC reported between 2008-2011, with 1,000 megawatts of new wind capacity since the RPS took effect.

    “Throughout the MISO footprint, increased growth in wind generation appears to have displaced relatively high cost generation, resulting in lower cost base-load plants more frequently setting the marginal electricity price. The continued growth in Michigan’s wind generation is expected to make a much greater contribution to this displacement in the MISO footprint by the end of 2012 as over 800 MW of new wind generation will be operational in the state.”

Key To Long-Term Economic Recovery?

That growth could ultimately wind up being a $4.9-billion annual industry in Michigan, support 20,800 jobs, and generate $163 million in tax revenue by 2015, according to a recent report from the Michigan Energy Innovation Business Council (MEIBC). Those figures could rise even higher, to $6.2 billion and 26,000 jobs, in an ideal scenario, perhaps if the state increased its RPS target to 25 percent by 2025.

Considering manufacturing employment in the state dropped 42 percent between 2001 and 2010, these new clean energy jobs could be exactly what Michigan’s economy and environment needs to thrive in the 21st century.

http://cleantechnica.com/2012/02/28/renewables-now-cheaper-than-coal-in-michigan-could-be-5-billion-industry/
Logged
WARNING! Reading Republican/Conservative/Tea Party comments will lower your intelligence quotient!

The new motto of the obstructionist Republican Party/Conservative-right/Tea Party...refuse to legislate, just investigate.

Baggins

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3224
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2012, 12:59:08 PM »

Wind turbines require a lot of maintenance, so the power from them won't be "free".  I've read several different sources that rate them from 1MW up to around 3.5MW.  Fermi II generates around 1100.  So using the highest rated wind turbine, it would take in the neighborhood of 314 towers to equal Fermi's output.  That is providing the wind is at optimum speed.  GE, which provides wind turbines, states that moderate wind requirements would be 14.3 mph and excellent would be at least 16.7 mph  (http://www.ge-energy.com/content/multimedia/_files/downloads/wind_energy_basics.pdf).  Plus there doesn't seem to be much desire to have a wind farm in many areas.  Land has been rezoned in the Traverse City area to hamper wind farm development as has been the case locally out in the Riga area.  I still maintain that if this was such an efficient and cheap way to produce electricity, power companies would be rushing to build farms rather than investing and re-investing in current technology.  They are after all about making money for the shareholders, as is any other company.


Yet the cost of maintenance is nothing compared to the continued cost of coal...You can't use fictitious fear tactics to scare people not to support self sustaining green energies...The current technologies you're talking about are old technologies and not worth wasting money on anymore, it's time to move on.
Logged
"Praise not the day until evening has come,
 A sword until it is tried,
 A maiden until she is married,
 Ice until it has been crossed,
 Beer until it has been drunk!" - (Viking proverb)

excelsior

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1736
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2012, 01:46:15 PM »

Solar and wind are intermittent forces that can’t serve as “baseload” power sources available 24/7.  Since “baseload” power sources are required, solar and wind sources would be additional costs above these baseline sources.   

I would look for power companies to add additional bio mass plants that use wood as a source in Michigan as these plants could serve the "baseload" from renewable energy sources.  This amendment could be a big help to the Michigan logging industry.

Logged
"The beginning of wisdom is a definition of terms." ~ Socrates

"No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude." ~ Karl Popper

Frenchfry

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27569
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2012, 05:36:43 PM »

"Burning coal means burning cash." Michigan spends billions of dollars every year importing coal -- and exporting jobs and our dollars to other states. End this status quo and our dependence on imported coal, with Proposal 3.

"CASH" Michigan Energy, Michigan Jobs
Logged
WARNING! Reading Republican/Conservative/Tea Party comments will lower your intelligence quotient!

The new motto of the obstructionist Republican Party/Conservative-right/Tea Party...refuse to legislate, just investigate.

BigRedDog

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22863
  • The BRD in her 'younger' days... 2007.
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2012, 06:31:50 PM »

Solar and wind are intermittent forces that can’t serve as “baseload” power sources available 24/7.  Since “baseload” power sources are required, solar and wind sources would be additional costs above these baseline sources.   

I would look for power companies to add additional bio mass plants that use wood as a source in Michigan as these plants could serve the "baseload" from renewable energy sources.  This amendment could be a big help to the Michigan logging industry.

One of the issues with all power generation is there are certain times of day that call for higher demand.  With nuclear and coal you can't just kick up the power when needed and get an instant response.  Natural gas fired plants respond a lot quicker.  I can remember seeing the black smoke kick out of the Whiting plant in Erie several years ago and was told they were burning fuel oil so they could make extra power for dinner time. 

We had an experimental "wood chip" power plant in Midland that operated for many years.  They've quit using it now because it's just plain cheaper to burn natural gas.  That may change again in the future and it has been shown to have potential.

There is also a huge gas fired power plant at Midland (was originally built to be a nuclear plant but Consumer's about went broke building it).  It currently supplies about 10% of the power needed in Michigan according to the Wiki article below (I don't have 100% faith in Wiki articles plus the info can change at any time). 

Over at Ludington they had the pumped water storage facility (not sure if they still use it or not...   lots of complaints on the number of fish killed over the years).  It worked to "peak" the power supply when the load demanded it.  It used the power from a couple of nuke facilities on the west side of the state to pump water into storage overnight and at low demand times during the day and then the pumps became generators by letting the water out of the storage when needed.  With all of our great lakes I can see this type of facility being able to "smooth out" the issues with wind and solar.

My question isn't if we need this type of power but rather should it be in the constitution :-\ :-\ :-\

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_Cogeneration_Venture

http://www.nrbp.org/papers/055.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power_Plant
Logged
"It's always easy to come up with a solution to someone else's problems".

Friends can email me at bigreddog1 at charter.net

lilly

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 934
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2012, 06:53:04 PM »

My question isn't if we need this type of power but rather should it be in the constitution :-\ :-\ :-\
I see the reason of many of these constitutional proposals as people are tired of lawmakers making decisions willy nilly then back tracking a few months later. By putting into the constitution, they have to bring it back to the people in order for any changes to be made.

It is sad that it has come to this, but it is one way to make law makers listen to the people.
Logged

BigRedDog

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22863
  • The BRD in her 'younger' days... 2007.
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2012, 06:58:15 PM »

I see the reason of many of these constitutional proposals as people are tired of lawmakers making decisions willy nilly then back tracking a few months later. By putting into the constitution, they have to bring it back to the people in order for any changes to be made.

It is sad that it has come to this, but it is one way to make law makers listen to the people.

But isn't Michigan one of the few states in the country with a "full time" legislature 8* 8* 8*
Logged
"It's always easy to come up with a solution to someone else's problems".

Friends can email me at bigreddog1 at charter.net

BigRedDog

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22863
  • The BRD in her 'younger' days... 2007.
Re: Proposal 3
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2012, 07:56:42 PM »

Logged
"It's always easy to come up with a solution to someone else's problems".

Friends can email me at bigreddog1 at charter.net
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 13   Go Up