MonroeTalks.com > Categories > Politics and Government > Unions Vs Minimum Wage


Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Unions Vs Minimum Wage  (Read 2849 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Flanders

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2322
Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« on: November 30, 2012, 08:34:49 AM »



Another telling sign of the New America.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/fast-food-workers-nyc-flex-their-muscle-better-pay-1C7333668

Here's my favorite excerpt:

"Joshua Williams, 28, works at a Wendy's restaurant in Brooklyn and told Reuters he planned to participate in the walkout. He said he still earned minimum wage, despite working 30 to 40 hours a week for more than a year. "

So this is the new norm? lol.  So basically we're eliminating the old minimum wage as these people are demanding $15/hr !!!!!  Yes, that's $15/hr to flip burgers and ask if you want fries with that.

Now don't get me wrong.  I'm not disparaging work at these types of establishments.  They are a great place for a teen to start learning workplace skills, and they are noble jobs for those who cannot find work elsewhere even if they are more qualified than the drive thru window position.

Ah yes, the New America.  Don't teach your kids to work hand in school to get a good job in life.  Teach them that if you can organize enough people to ***** about your pay, you can pretty much dictate whatever salary you want.  Enjoy!
Logged

blue2

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3764
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 09:43:53 AM »

And guess who will be first to complain about a Double with cheese costing $10.99, and a combo costing $19.99
Logged

blue2

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3764
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 09:51:12 AM »

I like the philosophy of not forcing the private companies to collect union dues from employees pay.  If the unions want dues let them get it directly from the workers that want to belong to the union.
Logged

Flanders

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2322
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2012, 10:21:15 AM »

And guess who will be first to complain about a Double with cheese costing $10.99, and a combo costing $19.99

Yup.

It's sad how selfish and shortsighted this country has become.  Selfish not in the sense of working hard to get things, but rather complaining to get someone elses things.

Economics 101 should be mandated for EVERY CHILD and every childlike adult.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 03:13:35 PM by Flanders »
Logged

The Fuzz

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17718
  • Fish Lake Michigan!
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2012, 02:38:34 PM »

Bottom line is that most consumers just don't care about the wages paid to the company workers of the businesses they patronize, nor the unfair treatment, nor the safety provided to sweatshop suppliers, nor whether they are union or nonunion.

There are some who will predicate who they patronize by those principles, but not enough to make a difference.  My beef with Walmart has more to do with what I see every time I go back home and where so many of the small towns I grew up around that once had vibrant little downtown areas that are now shuttered because Walmart built a store just outside of town on property purchased by some farmer. 

It was their business model, and it worked.  Hard to argue their success.  Another thing that rubbed me the wrong way is when they dropped their Made in America campaign.  It came at a time when Ross Perot's predictions were coming true and I was sensitive to it.

A majority of consumers just don't care....hell, look at the automotive industry in the early days.  Terrible treatment of employees but the demand was there and the love affair with having a car swept America.

Companies will not react unless it is something that impacts their bottom line....and that is capitalism at its finest.

http://news.yahoo.com/shoppers-habits-not-changed-garment-plant-fire-050552713--finance.html

NEW YORK (AP) — Before purchasing a shirt, shoppers will run their hands over the fabric, look at the price tag and wonder how it will hold up in the washing machine. Some might even ask if it makes them look fat.

The one detail, however, that is rarely considered: What are the conditions like for the workers making the shirt?

A horrific fire that raced through a Bangladesh garment factory Saturday, killing 112 people, has put the spotlight — at least temporarily — back on those workers and their sometimes treacherous work environment.

The factory, owned by Tazreen Fashions Ltd., made clothing for several retailers around the globe including Wal-Mart, Sears and The Walt Disney Co. All three companies have distanced themselves from responsibility for the incident, saying they didn't know that their subcontractors were using the factory.

Holiday shoppers have also maintained their distance from the tragedy.

"Truthfully, I hadn't even thought about it," said Megan Miller of Philadelphia as she walked out of the Disney Store in Times Square. "I had Christmas on my mind and getting my kids something from New York."

Shoppers from Cincinnati to Paris to Singapore all said the same thing: They were aware of the fatal factory fire, but they weren't thinking about it while browsing stores in the days since. Brand name, fit and — above all — prices were on their minds.

"Either our pockets get lighter or we have to live with more blood on our hands," said Amy Hong, a college student who was at a store in Singapore. "I try not to think about it."

Experts who survey shoppers say the out of sight, out of mind attitude is nothing new.

"When you talk to them about their biggest concerns, where something is made, or the abuses in some country, almost never show up," said C. Britt Beemer, chairman of America's Research Group, which interviews 10,000 to 15,000 consumers a week, mostly on behalf of retailers. "The numbers are so small, I quit asking the question."

Convenience is much more important to shoppers.

Take Tammy Johnson who was at a Walmart in Bloomington, Minn. this week. She lives nearby and appreciates that the store has a large grocery section in addition to clothing and other goods.

"It's easier and it's cheaper," she said of her decision to shop there. "I hate that, but it is true."

Even those who want to make socially responsible purchases a priority have little information available to work with.

There's no widespread system in place to say where all the materials in a shirt come from let alone whether it was made in a sweatshop or not.

A label saying "Made in USA of imported fabrics" doesn't provide as much information to shoppers as they might think. Maybe tailors assembled it under good working conditions, but what about the people who wove the fabrics? Another label saying that a shirt is made from 100 percent organic cotton fails to say anything about the conditions of the factory in which it was made.

"What do they know at the point of sale about where it comes from, other than the tag?" said Paco Underhill, founder of Envirosell, which studies consumer behavior. "Our hearts are generally are in the right places. It's the question of making sure we have the knowledge and pocketbook to follow."

And it's not just clothing. It is hard to tell where televisions or laptop components are made.

Companies selling products say they even struggle to tell. Work is often given to subcontractors who themselves use subcontractors. While many major companies stipulate ethics and standards that their subcontractors must follow, policing them is a costly, time-consuming process that sounds easier than it is.

In the case of the Bangladesh factory, Wal-Mart said it had received a safety audit showing the factory was "high-risk" and had decided months before the blaze to stop doing business with Tazreen. But it said a supplier had continued to use Tazreen without authorization.

In recent years, consumers have become much more aware about the food they eat, and where it comes from.

Supermarkets are full of eggs laid by free-range chickens, organically-grown apples and beef from grass-fed, hormone-free cows. Some upscale restaurants now name the farm that provided them with pork chops. And customers pay a premium for these foods.

The difference: They perceive a direct benefit, since the food is going into their bodies.

Ethical choices when buying clothing — or the latest version of Apple's iPhone — are much more blurred.

Jean MacLeod, who was shopping at a Walmart on the south side of Indianapolis, is willing to pay more for goods if they are made in an ethically responsible manner and does it all the time when she buys food.

Walmart wants the best prices for its customers, she said, but the company also has power as a buyer to make sure factories have decent working conditions.

"They should be able to say, 'Look it, we don't want to buy from you unless you do things a little more our way,'" MacLeod said. "If they don't want to buy from them, then that means that factory will go out of business."

Arguments have been made that producing items with cheap labor isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Factories in the Third World can provide jobs with wages well above a region's average. They can help lift families out of severe poverty. The catch is that there are fewer safeguards to protect workers from being exploited from unscrupulous employers.

At the Bangladesh factory, locked exits prevented many workers from escaping after fire broke out.

It draws eerie parallels to New York's Triangle Shirtwaist Fire of 1911, where 146 people died within 18 minutes of a fire starting in a factory with locked exits.

That fire was the catalyst for widespread changes in labor laws in U.S. But in the 100 years since, the desire for cheap clothing hasn't abated and costly labor has just shifted to factories overseas.

"To put it maybe too frankly, profit and efficiency and competition always trump safety and health," said James A. Gross, a labor relations professor at Cornell University.

Not every company sees things that way.

Los Angeles-based American Apparel promotes itself as a line of "sweatshop free" clothing. Its founder and CEO, Dov Charney, said that companies can control working conditions — they just need to bring production closer to home. American Apparel knits, dyes, cuts and sews all of its products in-house.

"When the company knows the face of its worker, that's important," Charney said. "You can control working conditions and quality."

Yes, American Apparel spends more on labor, but it isn't as much as you would expect. Charney estimates that an imported T-shirt selling for $6 at Walmart would cost about $6.30 if produced domestically thanks to the company's massive scale.

"The consumer can care. They can buy from companies that are committed to fair trade and try to seek out those companies," he said.

Take Nike.

In the mid-1990s, the sneaker giant came under pressure to change its ways after numerous reports of child labor, low wages and poor working conditions. Eventually wages climbed, minimum age requirements were put in place and Nike increased monitoring at its factories.

But such change only comes after persistent public pressure.

"Clothes makers will always do what they want, but the buyer should educate himself," said Paris shopper Pierre Lefebvre.

Not all buyers have that luxury. Family budgets are tight.

"Especially with this economy, we like our money to go as far as it can," said Lesley Schuldt, who left a Cincinnati Macy's this week with five shopping bags worth of jewelry, cookware and gifts. "I have no idea where half the stuff I bought was made, but I imagine it was not in the U.S."

Logged
Support the local economy as much as possible!

Flanders

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2322
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2012, 03:16:09 PM »

I agree Fuzz.  But here they aren't talking about outsourcing or hazardous working conditions.. It's simply that the workers feel they aren't making enough money flipping burgers.

Sadly the legitmate argument about workplace safety gets mixed in with these slugs and taints the whole topic.
Logged

lilly

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1713
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 03:26:14 PM »

It's simply that the workers feel they aren't making enough money flipping burgers.

Sadly the legitimate argument about workplace safety gets mixed in with these slugs and taints the whole topic.



Now don't get me wrong.  I'm not disparaging work at these types of establishments. 
Nope, not at all.

At least not in delusional land. 8*
Logged
Contestant 1: I'll take "Emotions of the Conservatives" for 1000 Alex.
Alex Trebek: These two emotions are the bane of Conservative existence.

Contestant 1: What are "empathy and compassion?"
Alex Trebek: "You're right for $1000"

The Fuzz

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17718
  • Fish Lake Michigan!
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2012, 03:37:35 PM »

I agree Fuzz.  But here they aren't talking about outsourcing or hazardous working conditions.. It's simply that the workers feel they aren't making enough money flipping burgers.

Sadly the legitmate argument about workplace safety gets mixed in with these slugs and taints the whole topic.

Yea, I was just wrapping it all together.

Most consumers show no apathy in the big picture, or the companies who do employees wrong would not be thriving.

I did think the Nike point was a good one though that illustrates if more consumers boycotted a company when violating what folks are morally object to that together they can drive changes in company business practices.

Walmart though just seems to keep on chugging in spite of all the bad press that upsets a lot of folks.
Logged
Support the local economy as much as possible!

Flanders

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2322
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2012, 04:09:39 PM »

Nope, not at all.

At least not in delusional land. 8*

Substance added to discussion..  Zero.

You think a fast food worker should make $17 hr?  Explain.
Logged

livewire

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12119
  • "SHALL NOT be infringed". Got it?
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2012, 06:57:09 PM »

I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. — I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.

In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.



~Benjamin Franklin, On the Price of Corn and Management of the Poor, November 1766
Logged
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
~ Albert Einstein

livewire

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12119
  • "SHALL NOT be infringed". Got it?
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2012, 07:14:42 PM »

And guess who will be first to complain about a Double with cheese costing $10.99, and a combo costing $19.99

Exactly.

The "dollar menu" will become the "five dollar menu".

Let the liberals control things, and a family of four will have to pay $100.00 to eat at McDonald's.




But the workers will be making a "fair wage", though!!!!!   8*


Talk about delusional!
Logged
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
~ Albert Einstein

ell

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4569
  • Nothing beats a good paddle
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 08:13:15 PM »


But the workers will be making a "fair wage", though!!!!!   8*

Talk about delusional!

So a fair wage is a bad thing?
Logged
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thouroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming WOO HOO what a ride!

livewire

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12119
  • "SHALL NOT be infringed". Got it?
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2012, 08:18:44 PM »

So a fair wage is a bad thing?

That depends. 

Define a "fair wage".

If it means paying a kid fresh out of high school with a "C" average, and no other schooling, $18.50 an hour starting wage, to put frozen fries in the fryer and press a button, then yes, it is a bad thing.
Logged
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
~ Albert Einstein

ell

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4569
  • Nothing beats a good paddle
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2012, 08:34:37 PM »

That depends. 

Define a "fair wage".

If it means paying a kid fresh out of high school with a "C" average, and no other schooling, $18.50 an hour starting wage, to put frozen fries in the fryer and press a button, then yes, it is a bad thing.

Aah, there's the problem.  Defining a fair wage is indeed difficult.  Nope, 18.50 is a bit high for a fast food worker.  Even if he was an "A" student.  Maybe a fair wage looks different whether you're paying it or earning it.

Let me remove all doubt I pretty much lean toward the liberal side of things, but the the liberal/conservative labels are pretty damn hard to defend or define as I think everyone has at least a little bit of both in them.  Anyway, that's the way my mother raised us, along with respecting other people's ideas and ideals whether or not you agreed with them.  She was widowed twice by the time she was 31 and had 3 kids ranging in ages from 14 months to 10 years old.  Personally, I think she did a pretty good job.  All three of her kids are working, not standing around looking for a handout.  Had us in church on Sundays and encouraged us to further our educations after high school.
Logged
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thouroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming WOO HOO what a ride!

sammy

  • Hero Talker
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3555
Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2012, 08:42:52 PM »

That depends. 

Define a "fair wage".

If it means paying a kid fresh out of high school with a "C" average, and no other schooling, $18.50 an hour starting wage, to put frozen fries in the fryer and press a button, then yes, it is a bad thing.
No one who advocates a "fair wage", whether on this forum or any other, will ever give a number, just as those who advocate that "the rich" should pay their "fair share" will  never give a number. Thus, we are always in limbo, but we all know that, somehow, nothing is "fair".
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6   Go Up