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livewire

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2012, 08:46:55 PM »

Ell, I think we are in agreement, more than not, here.

I believe that if you work hard, have your employer's best interests in mind, you should receive a "fair wage".  Yeah, at a fast food joint, that could mean starting out at minimum wage.  But that's just it - in this country, how far you go up the ladder is up to YOU.  How many kids started working at McDonald's, sweeping floors, and 15 or 20 years later they were the OWNER of a 2 million dollar restaurant?  Probably more than you think.

It IS possible, but it's not easy.  And those that work THAT hard should be rewarded, IMO.
Those that show up for work (not always on time), put in their hours, working as little as they can, do NOT deserve a "fair wage".  They deserve to be fired.
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livewire

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2012, 08:56:01 PM »

No one who advocates a "fair wage", whether on this forum or any other, will ever give a number, just as those who advocate that "the rich" should pay their "fair share" will  never give a number. Thus, we are always in limbo, but we all know that, somehow, nothing is "fair".

I'll stick my neck out.  Won't be the first time the liberals here have tried to cut off my head.

Fast food joint (or comparable job), starting wage of minimum wage, increasing up to maybe $12.00 for a GOOD manager.

Retail sales, starting wage of $9.00 to $10.00, with raises up to maybe $15.00, or maybe more, depending on the job, the field, level of knowledge needed, etc.

Skilled trades, starting wage of $13.00 to $15.00, going up to maybe $22.00, or maybe more, depending on a lot of factors... experience, field of work, etc.

There are a lot of variables that need to be considered here... these are just estimates, and may be subject to change, depending on circumstances.  Getting good help is a competitive market, and you have to pay the money to keep good employees.
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ell

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2012, 09:00:52 PM »

Ell, I think we are in agreement, more than not, here.

I believe that if you work hard, have your employer's best interests in mind, you should receive a "fair wage".  Yeah, at a fast food joint, that could mean starting out at minimum wage.  But that's just it - in this country, how far you go up the ladder is up to YOU.  How many kids started working at McDonald's, sweeping floors, and 15 or 20 years later they were the OWNER of a 2 million dollar restaurant?  Probably more than you think.

It IS possible, but it's not easy.  And those that work THAT hard should be rewarded, IMO.
Those that show up for work (not always on time), put in their hours, working as little as they can, do NOT deserve a "fair wage".  They deserve to be fired.

Yes live, I'm in agreement with this.  I think you need to earn what you're paid.
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lilly

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2012, 02:25:17 AM »

I'll stick my neck out.  Won't be the first time the liberals here have tried to cut off my head.

Fast food joint (or comparable job), starting wage of minimum wage, increasing up to maybe $12.00 for a GOOD manager.

Retail sales, starting wage of $9.00 to $10.00, with raises up to maybe $15.00, or maybe more, depending on the job, the field, level of knowledge needed, etc.

Skilled trades, starting wage of $13.00 to $15.00, going up to maybe $22.00, or maybe more, depending on a lot of factors... experience, field of work, etc.

There are a lot of variables that need to be considered here... these are just estimates, and may be subject to change, depending on circumstances.  Getting good help is a competitive market, and you have to pay the money to keep good employees.
Even though you started out with the "The liberals are out to get me" BS, I actually agree with most of what you said.
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blue2

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2012, 04:20:45 AM »

Corporations big and small are not fair with workers either.  I have a relative in marketing that had a small salary and was paid commission on his accounts.  He was in 6 figures every year.  A few years ago he landed an account that paid his employer over $5,000,000 a yr.  Well guess what..They raised his pay and took him off commission.  Make sense?  NO. but take it or leave it.
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livewire

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2012, 07:18:18 AM »

Even though you started out with the "The liberals are out to get me" BS, I actually agree with most of what you said.

Ok, so you don't support the Walmart worker's Black Friday "disruptions"?

Or do you?  Is Walmart mistreating their workers or not?

I'm not trying to argue - I'm getting mixed signals from you/Forsythia/et al.
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excelsior

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2012, 10:36:33 AM »

Ok, so you don't support the Walmart worker's Black Friday "disruptions"?

Or do you?  Is Walmart mistreating their workers or not?

I'm not trying to argue - I'm getting mixed signals from you/Forsythia/et al.

I am not a fan of Walmart.  I avoid shopping at Walmart because I like to buy local when possible.

Livewire, I doubt these folks are looking at the wage that the market will bear for a job skill set.   Instead they are looking at the profit that Walmart is making and feel that they can/should pay more.   They neglect to understand that if Walmart were to greatly increase their employee's wage that the small businesses could not compete in this labor market.

I seen some of these folks also indicate that Walmart is destroying main street.  I think that they are talking out of both sides of their mouths with these two positions.   I think that if Walmart were to greatly increase the salary for these entry level jobs that most small businesses left on main street would be gone.

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TLaitur

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2012, 10:49:21 AM »

I am not a fan of Walmart.  I avoid shopping at Walmart because I like to buy local when possible.

Livewire, I doubt these folks are looking at the wage that the market will bear for a job skill set.   Instead they are looking at the profit that Walmart is making and feel that they can/should pay more.   They neglect to understand that if Walmart were to greatly increase their employee's wage that the small businesses could not compete in this labor market.

I seen some of these folks also indicate that Walmart is destroying main street.  I think that they are talking out of both sides of their mouths with these two positions.   I think that if Walmart were to greatly increase the salary for these entry level jobs that most small businesses left on main street would be gone.

Excellent point, Exc.
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The Fuzz

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2012, 12:20:59 PM »

I seen some of these folks also indicate that Walmart is destroying main street.  I think that they are talking out of both sides of their mouths with these two positions.   I think that if Walmart were to greatly increase the salary for these entry level jobs that most small businesses left on main street would be gone.

I've seen it first hand in the southern MidWest, and said it independent of what wages they pay, high or low.  Not certain how that is talking out of both sides of my mouth.  Please explain?
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lilly

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2012, 02:44:47 PM »

I've seen it first hand in the southern MidWest, and said it independent of what wages they pay, high or low.  Not certain how that is talking out of both sides of my mouth.  Please explain?

They don't mean moderates like you Fuzz, they mean us pesky liberals.

You my friend get a free pass.
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lilly

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2012, 03:12:11 PM »

Ok, so you don't support the Walmart worker's Black Friday "disruptions"?

Or do you?  Is Walmart mistreating their workers or not?

I'm not trying to argue - I'm getting mixed signals from you/Forsythia/et al.


I agreed with your statements, however this is not what is happening. If you want stories about how WalMart mistreats their workers, I suggest you Google "WalMart Mistreats Employees".

Here's a few

After months of being denied breaks, Debbie Simonson had had enough. She quit her job at the Brooklyn Park Wal-Mart store because "I was tired of all the stress . . . of being told I couldn't go to the bathroom." Even though she didn't get to take the breaks, Wal-Mart never paid her for the time she worked, she said.

Then, on one of her last days of work, Simonson forgot to punch the time clock at the end of her shift. So a supervisor marked the log for 6:59 a.m. – one minute after she started. Instead of getting paid for eight hours of work, she was paid for one minute.

Simonson and 56,000 other current and former Wal-Mart employees hope to get the money they are owed – and a measure of justice – through a class action lawsuit that began Tuesday in Dakota County District Court. The case involves workers employed at 46 Wal-Mart and 13 Sam Club's stores across Minnesota from September 1998 to January 2004.

Attorneys for the workers say the case will have implications for Wal-Mart employees across the country.

Mountains of evidence

By agreement of both parties, the case is being heard without a jury by District Judge Robert King, Jr. Boxes of evidence – everything from payroll records, tax records, and company reports to memos and e-mails – line the courtroom walls. The case has taken more than six years to prepare and involved examining data from some 9 million shifts, said William Sieben, lead attorney for the workers.

The research uncovered more than 14.6 million violations of both Minnesota law and company policy, amounting to more than $27 million, the attorneys said.

"While these employees are working as hard as they can, below the poverty line, Wal-Mart is breaking the law . . ." attorney Justin Perl of Maslon Edelman Borman & Brand said in opening statements.

The suit alleges:

• Wal-Mart failed to pay workers when they missed all or part of their 15-minute rest breaks.
• Wal-Mart failed to pay workers when they missed all or part of their half-hour lunch breaks.
• Wal-Mart routinely required employees to work "off the clock" for no pay before and after shifts.
• Wal-Mart managers falsified time sheets to show that breaks were taken.
• Wal-Mart managers regularly engaged in the "one-minute punch" practice, depriving workers of pay for entire shifts.

Pressure to cut costs

These practices were widespread because store managers were under constant pressure to cut labor costs, attorneys said. They cited internal company memos in which managers were chastised if they sought overtime pay for employees or did not meet company directives to lower payroll costs every year.

"The message is delivered," Perl said. "It starts at the top: 'Take a blowtorch to payroll.'"

When workers complained, they "got in trouble or were threatened," he said.

Simonson, a single mother with two children, earned $7.25 an hour at the Brooklyn Park store. When asked how many breaks she was denied over her year of employment, she responded, "Too many to count."

Cashiers were only allowed to use the bathroom during their rest break, she said. After being forced work for four hours without a break, her chronic bladder condition – which had required surgery – worsened, she said.

Her attempts to raise the problem with managers fell on deaf ears, she testified.

Burying the evidence

Not just store managers failed to act, Perl said. During his opening statement, he showed two videos of top company officials talking to shareholders and managers about wage and hour violations.

"We know we do some things we probably shouldn't do . . ." a human resources vice president can be heard saying on one of the tapes.

When an internal company audit revealed tens of thousands of violations occurring at Wal-Mart stores around the country in just one week, "they buried the audit," Perl said.

Wal-Mart, the world's largest employer, keeps voluminous records on all its stores on a computer larger than the one in the Pentagon. Attorneys hope to use the company's own records against it.

Last year in Philadelphia, workers won $78 million in a lawsuit against Wal-Mart over identical violations. Workers in at least 10 other states are awaiting the outcome of the Minnesota case, which will probably be in court until the end of October, Sieben said.

Attorneys for Wal-Mart did not make opening statements Tuesday, but said they would wait until after the plaintiffs have presented their case.

In addition to seeking financial relief for the employees, the attorneys are asking the judge to issue an injunction barring the company from using the "one-minute punch" to falsify employee work records.

Despite publicity about the practice, "we think it's still going on," Sieben said.



Here's a complete article for you to read from a website called DailyFinance. Just in case you thought I'd be sending you to all those "Nasty Liberal" sites.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/10/25/walmarts-new-promise-always-low-benefits-always/
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The Fuzz

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2012, 03:46:33 PM »

They don't mean moderates like you Fuzz, they mean us pesky liberals.

You my friend get a free pass.

Me a moderate.....Mrs. Fuzz calls me a hot head.  Well, come to think of it she calls me a lot of things.  Whole other story though.   ;D

I didn't take TLaitur's comment as an attack of sorts, but I have said many times that my rub with Walmart as a company was their impact to the small town merchants in the Midwest. 

I just didn't understand the last paragraph of his post and was asking for clarification.



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blue2

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2012, 09:24:14 PM »

I guess some people would call this fair wages.  Chrysler claims it's making a profit and is paying the second half of it bonus to union employees.  $1750 for hard work and making the company profitable.  Even laid off employees of 6 months or more are getting the bonus for as the CEO says hard work.  800 emply in Toledo laid off and didn't work for whole bonus period but still getting the money.  So I guess it isn't for hard work and improving the company.  And I'd guess if Chrylser was required to pay back the taxpayers the hundreds of millions they have I'd guess they would still be losing money.
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TLaitur

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2012, 03:11:52 PM »

Me a moderate.....Mrs. Fuzz calls me a hot head.  Well, come to think of it she calls me a lot of things.  Whole other story though.   ;D

I didn't take TLaitur's comment as an attack of sorts, but I have said many times that my rub with Walmart as a company was their impact to the small town merchants in the Midwest. 

I just didn't understand the last paragraph of his post and was asking for clarification.

Fuzz: The reason you didn't understand the last paragraph of my post is that it only contained one paragraph:

Excellent point, Exc.

Now Excelsior; he had more than one paragraph!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 03:14:15 PM by TLaitur »
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excelsior

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Re: Unions Vs Minimum Wage
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2012, 02:15:58 PM »

I've seen it first hand in the southern MidWest, and said it independent of what wages they pay, high or low.  Not certain how that is talking out of both sides of my mouth.  Please explain?

My comments were directed at the folks that have complained about both Walmart destroying main street and their current salaries to their employees.

Walmart could raise employee wages, but this action would put additional pressure on the remaining small businesses on main street.   I think Walmart increasing their employee's a large amount would be problematic for small businesses to trying to complete.  I see a level of conflict in holding both of these views.







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