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[sammy]

Yeah, because gosh, no one her has said "all liberals want to take away out guns" a hundred times or anything....

Citation? A hundred? really?

[Will Sweat]

Will, Some that I know of personally but can't talk about fall into the category of trying to get help and it is a struggle to get it.  Monroe Mental Health, where I take little guy is one after the other of just out of college students that seem to want you to tell them what needs done.

I remember Engler closing the state mental places to save money and finding that 80% were either dead or in jail two months later. 

MCMHA is a great organization - the have some wonderful staff and I can tell you that the Supervisors in Child and Family are terrific folks.  I hope that things work.  I would always advise anyone with kids (including myself) that maybe working with ISD and have an open IEP to use MCMHA and if possible wrap-around services.  Together they do good work. 

Sadly there are a ton of stories about kids and families who have had this happen to them.  When I was working on call several years ago I had to deal with a client who had done some self harm.  We believed as did the family that the child was a risk of injury.  The child and family were transported to UofM and sat for nearly three hours before a psychologist could see them.  UofM then did an assessment and sent the family home saying the child was not a risk.  Problem was that the next day they continued this behavior and the mother missed work the rest of the week trying to get the kid into Toledo.  It was horrible and only one of many instances. 

It really was not as much Gov. Engler as it was the courts.  Because of lawsuits many adult facilities had to close because they could not say the person was an immediate risk of harm to either them or others.  Problem is that some of the clients were not a harm not because treatment was magical and they had changed but because of medication.  Once released the client went off meds and then was readmitted for a few days to get back on it.  It is a vicious cycle for many.  Services that MCMHA does that monitor medication in the community work well if the client is cooperative. 

I was reading today and learned that CT does not have the same standards that MI does.  Specifically a client cannot be admitted under an ATO in CT unless they have done something physically to either themself or others or if there has been a specific threat.  Sadly, I bet the Newtown tragedy will get them to revisit this. 

[ducksoup]

MCMHA is a great organization - the have some wonderful staff and I can tell you that the Supervisors in Child and Family are terrific folks.  I hope that things work.  I would always advise anyone with kids (including myself) that maybe working with ISD and have an open IEP to use MCMHA and if possible wrap-around services.  Together they do good work. 

Sadly there are a ton of stories about kids and families who have had this happen to them.  When I was working on call several years ago I had to deal with a client who had done some self harm.  We believed as did the family that the child was a risk of injury.  The child and family were transported to UofM and sat for nearly three hours before a psychologist could see them.  UofM then did an assessment and sent the family home saying the child was not a risk.  Problem was that the next day they continued this behavior and the mother missed work the rest of the week trying to get the kid into Toledo.  It was horrible and only one of many instances. 

It really was not as much Gov. Engler as it was the courts.  Because of lawsuits many adult facilities had to close because they could not say the person was an immediate risk of harm to either them or others.  Problem is that some of the clients were not a harm not because treatment was magical and they had changed but because of medication.  Once released the client went off meds and then was readmitted for a few days to get back on it.  It is a vicious cycle for many.  Services that MCMHA does that monitor medication in the community work well if the client is cooperative. 

I was reading today and learned that CT does not have the same standards that MI does.  Specifically a client cannot be admitted under an ATO in CT unless they have done something physically to either themself or others or if there has been a specific threat.  Sadly, I bet the Newtown tragedy will get them to revisit this. 

I don't have a complaint about the psychiatrists that assess and issue little guys meds other than having a very hard time (apparently) with keeping a child psychologist.  It is more the people around them especially the social workers that, as I said, all appear to be new grads that stay awhile and move on.

As you can probably guess, with someone that cannot communicate it is often guess work on what is going on.  Is he being difficult because his med is not right or because he has a headache or ear infection.  Is it frustration...  Psychiatrists at MMH are there to deal out drugs, and not much else. 

For a time we had the help of a better trained psychologist but was limited in number of appointments he could do.  It also seems like it took a very long time to finally get through the system for help.  If I recall it was about 8 months.

The other ones that I don't want to speak about in detail were more of knowing a child had a problem and appealing for help and being brushed off more like you mention.  Only one of the several finally did get help and that was limited to just meds.

Maybe that is a part, that often the help" is just meds and not the behavioral help that SHOULD accompany them.

[Will Sweat]

It is too bad that you have went through a number of workers.  Maintain a long relationship with a worker means a great deal for the development of the client and family. 

ISD has some outstanding social workers and if you are able to gain access to them you should.  They are some terrific people and a couple of them used to be at CMH. 

I believe that dealing with children really takes a holistic approach.  School, family, social workers, therapist, respite workers and wrap around services.  If you want and feel you need more don't give up - please.  I have a belief that kids don't really fall through the cracks but what happens is they (and the family) get stuck with workers that lack the creativity, insight and education to always be looking for new alternatives.  This leads to the family feeling as if nothing will change and then . . . . . the student is gone from what should have been a helping environment. 

[BigRedDog]

I'm not an expert in the mental health field...  I always have to look to see the difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist...   so these are strictly personal thoughts...  I'm not necessarily in favor of or opposed to some of these....  really just throwing any of it out for meaningful discussion (if that is even possible around here)...

Any suggestion for additional government funding (read taxes) for help with this issue is going to be beaten back by the Kopkes with "let the private sector handle it"!!! 

Maybe a tax on firearms or ammunition...   and I'm not really in favor of that...  I have a .44 Russian and the ammunition for it is already almost $30/box...

Some observations on the shooter...

This young man was a VERY ANGRY PERSON!!!   You don't have to shoot someone more than one time kill them (using the weapon and ammunition he was using)...   according to the autopsies he shot every child at least twice and one at least 11 times...   he shot his own mother in the head 4 times... probably while she was asleep...  I read yesterday he used a .22 on her so maybe he felt he had to shoot her 4 times to 'make sure'...

Based on the thought of his anger level and the facts he apparently went to this school and the fact he was taking it out on the kids makes me think he had an issue with kids at that school...

I'll bet after they investigate long enough they'll find where he was somehow bullied while at that school...   maybe the child that was shot 11 times really resembled a child that had been aggressive toward him at some time...   

Some other thoughts...   I've read reports that until 1998 his mother had been a 'very successful stockbroker' and I believe they said she worked in New York city...   so she was up early and gone before the kid was up and probably wasn't home until late in the evening...  probably spent very little time with the kid during the week but then made it up to him with lots of 'quality time' on the weekends...  Then hubby divorced her...   she got the $800K house and a huge alimony and he told her she would never have to work again as long as she lived... 

Recently in the kid's life...   Dad and brother live 78 miles away and Dad hadn't seen the kid since June...   and I thought I saw reports the brother hadn't seen him in a couple of years...   c'mon there are some problems there somewhere...

I do really question some of the video games today...   even when our kids were growing up 20 years ago I felt they sometimes spent way too much time playing on them although we didn't allow them to have some of the worst at home...  I'm sure they played them at their friends' homes though!!!   So far none of ours have gone off the deep end though!!!

I know...  lots of mixed thoughts...  just some thoughts I've had since Friday morning!

[T-M-T]

Interesting thoughts, BRD.

I, for one, have never bought the arguments that TV shows or video games cause violence.  I grew up with the Three Stooges.  I never dropped an anvil on anyone’s head, hit someone with a hammer or put anybody’s head in a vice.

I never had my eyes poked either, but, of course, I knew the block.

[Will Sweat]

BRD,

I do think that more needs to be done for mental health.  My thoughts are simple but would not be "welcomed" by many.  Assessment of behavior (antisocial) needs to begin early in elementry school.  Kids need to be integrated with others as much as possible. 

Funding for assessments and recommendations would already be available through ISD for any student that has an identified need.  This would also place the family on notice that there exist an issue.  Services are currently covered if the student has medicaide through MCMHA and they work very well in cooperation with ISD.  Private insurance it is more tricky. 

I believe also that continued exposure to violence in video games, movies, music and so on does have an impact on a child that is socially withdrawn.  This requires the parent to be active.  While media like this does not impact all children, I believe if that child has an underlying issue that is not being addressed it will have a negative impact. 

[BigRedDog]

Interesting thoughts, BRD.

I, for one, have never bought the arguments that TV shows or video games cause violence.  I grew up with the Three Stooges.  I never dropped an anvil on anyone’s head, hit someone with a hammer or put anybody’s head in a vice.

I never had my eyes poked either, but, of course, I knew the block.

I've never really bought into the video games either...   but again we didn't let our kids have the worst ones...  What I do think is all the video game play did help our oldest daughter in her reflexes and her hand/eye/mind co-ordination to help her excel at sports!!!

something else to think about...  why have the mass murders like this in the last century been almost exclusively carried out by males...  our 2 girls had the same exposure to TV and video games as our son so I would think that goes across the spectrum pretty evenly...   

go way back in history and there were some wicked women...   most of them powerful royalty in fact...   I guess they outlawed the guillotine and that solved the problem

Perhaps rather than being bullied the shooter was sexually molested somehow...  I know it's a gruesome thought but I would be interested in knowing the gender of the victim that was shot 11 times.  There is a reason the shooter showed the extra violence toward that particular individual!!!

[BigRedDog]

BRD,

I do think that more needs to be done for mental health.  My thoughts are simple but would not be "welcomed" by many.  Assessment of behavior (antisocial) needs to begin early in elementry school.  Kids need to be integrated with others as much as possible. 

Funding for assessments and recommendations would already be available through ISD for any student that has an identified need.  This would also place the family on notice that there exist an issue.  Services are currently covered if the student has medicaide through MCMHA and they work very well in cooperation with ISD.  Private insurance it is more tricky. 

I believe also that continued exposure to violence in video games, movies, music and so on does have an impact on a child that is socially withdrawn.  This requires the parent to be active.  While media like this does not impact all children, I believe if that child has an underlying issue that is not being addressed it will have a negative impact.

I'm guessing a lot of criminals are such due to heavy influence during childhood... 

Did we have as many issues when we were growing up or is this something that has grown in the last 20-30 years...  and if so...  WHY? 

Are there any provisions in the Affordable Care Act that might provide better care for mental issues?

[pam]

I'm wondering if the Affordable Care Act will make things worse. My son has seen a developmental specialist and a developmental psychologist for the autism diagnosis, both are specialties that seem to be on par with mental health specialists. The initial evaluation by each was between 30 and 60 minutes and every appointment after that only 10 minutes. To get an appointment for each, we were on a waiting list of 4 to 6 months. Now that Michigan has adopted the autism coverage for private insurances, the amount of time to get back into the specialists has shot back up to 6 months to a year, depending on if I want to see the actual doctor or a nurse practitioner. Don't get me wrong...it's great that there's coverage for more children diagnosed with autism, but there's a huge shortage of professionals. I can see that being a problem with Obamacare.

I know Will mentioned the ISD and I am a huge fan of the ISD. I honestly think the ISD has done more to help my son than any of the specialists have. The specialists have just made the "official" diagnosis, but the ISD has provided fantastic resources and educational support. I know that the ISD can receive Medicaid resources if the parent of a child signs off and the child's case is drawn from a lottery style system. I think it would be great if the ISD could receive more funds from insurance companies for some of these services, whether it be the resources from the ISD (the psychologists, therapists, etc) or a joint effort between the ISD and mental health. Maybe that would help kids whose parents either won't seek help, feel like they don't have the resources to seek help, or parents who do seek help and are satisfied with simply medicating their children. I have nothing against medication, but I think that sometimes parents see that as an end-game solution as long as it solves the behavioral issues.

[forever39]

My daughter has a friend who has a son with Asperger Syndrome.  The torture she has been through over the last 10-12 years seeking assistance for her son is unbelievable.  Her son did demonstrate some violent tendencies at one time, toward others and himself, but he hasn't in the past few years.  Who knows what the future holds for them.

[Will Sweat]

I'm guessing a lot of criminals are such due to heavy influence during childhood... 

Did we have as many issues when we were growing up or is this something that has grown in the last 20-30 years...  and if so...  WHY? 

Are there any provisions in the Affordable Care Act that might provide better care for mental issues?

That is a question with kids isn't it.  How much is nurture and nature?  I am of the opinion that "boys are boys" and "girls are girls" in that develop likes and dislikes that fit that mold.  Not always but mostly.  The other side it parental, family and community input. 

I do think there are "markers" that can be (and normally are) seen by family and professionals during the course of growing up that raise concerns.  If they are not addressed . . . . wow, SMH. 

I am of the belief that it isn't "new" but we hear about it quicker and the kids have more access to things that either bring to to fruition quicker or in more lethal manners.  Consider as you posted about the Bath Tragedy.  Don't forget that Ed Gein grew up in the 20 - 30's, The "Bloody Benders Family" (1872), David Berkowitz was a child of the 60's, Dr. H. H. Holmes (1893).  I think that evil exist and always will.  I believe we have to acknowledge that and deal with it instead of thinking that we can eliminate it.  Not to go all biblical on ya but . . . seems if God has not eliminated satan maybe we should concede that we are not going to eliminate the evil of man. 

I don't know about the affordable care act.  I have heard both good and bad and don't really know enough to comment. 

[Skittelroo]

This is a good discussion (so far, and I hope it stays that way).  I also have a few thoughts I have often contemplated. 

I believe we need to change how insurance plans cover mental health issues.  They need every bit as much coverage as physical illnesses, yet most are limited to so many visits per year.  As for even getting adults to try a counselor/therapist, I think many refuse because they fear the attached stigma it might produce, and do not want that on their work record or future job applications (not that it is a current question).   And when it comes to disabilities and the possibility of needing long-term disability pay, it is pretty much a guarantee that unless it is extremely severe, it will not be covered.

[Will Sweat]

I like the idea of insurance changes. 

My girlfriends younger sister is a pharmacy major at OSU and we go down to Columbus to visit her often.  She is working in a program that puts, doctors, psychologist, psychiatrist, pharmacist and social workers all on one team to help work with clients.  In listening to her they are having really good outputs with this.  Communication is the key, no question. 

I have often thought that running commercials (think about the "autism speaks" commercials) that discuss mental illness (without pushing a medication) could help adults shed the stigma.  It will take time thought. 

[forever39]

Good points, Skittelroo - we had an incident a few years ago that caught us by surprise.  My husband had been prescribed an anti-anxiety med when he was going through a very difficult situation - this was 1 scrip prescribed by his medical dr.  Several years later we purchased a new vehicle & also purchased the disability insurance for it.  A year or so later, he had knee replacement surgery which required him to be off work for awhile.  We applied to the insurance to pick up the payments while he was off.  Lo & behold, they considered his 1 scrip evidence of a "mental disorder" & would not pay.  When he answered the questions on the application for the insurance he answered "no" to the one asking if he had any mental issues - neither of us ever dreamed that single incident several years back would come up.  He even called his doctor - the doctor said yes, anxiety was considered a mental disorder.  In the end, the insurance company refunded our premium, which was applied to the vehicle.  So it's easy to see why adults sometimes are very reluctant to seek help - you never know when it will come back to haunt you.  Of course, we always believed the insurance company used this to avoid paying, but I don't know - refunding our premium was almost equal to the few payments they would have paid.