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livewire

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Do we need more gun control?
« on: January 08, 2013, 05:45:09 PM »

Since the other thread on gun laws was locked for some reason, I figured I would start another one.

I can hear you sighing, and I can see you shaking your head.   ;D

Anyways, I think it's important to keep the discussion going, even if it gets a little emotional at times.
Please play nice.



I saw this today on the MCRGO facebook page:


Please share this. It helps explain the need for legal gun owners to people who only see guns as deadly weapons.

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.

If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force.

Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion.

Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation... and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.)
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blue2

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2013, 05:58:37 PM »

The banks are starting gun control on their own now.  According to a post on Facebook the Bank of America is freezing the accounts of a gun manufactured (American Spirit Firearms) because it says it doesn't agree with it's business of making and selling guns.  Wonder what the rest of the story is.  This is pretty scary if it's true.  What's next?
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jbs49238

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2013, 06:03:02 PM »

No gun control needed... UZI's and rocket launchers for all.
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sammy

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2013, 06:28:31 PM »

Well, that deteriorated quickly!
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livewire

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2013, 07:31:54 PM »

No gun control needed... UZI's and rocket launchers for all.

About time you come around to the side of reason.   ;D



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Monroe Native

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2013, 07:36:55 PM »

I read an article today that the chances of something passing is dropping daily.

The Republicans appear to be more concerned about out of control spending and the debt limit.

Several Democrats are beating the gun control drums, but several other notable Democrats are saying they are willing to listen and talk about it but.....

The basic gist of the article was even on the Democratic side of the aisle they don't want to touch the issue.

I think nothing is going to get done.  It may take a year or so to get things back to normal - though I think prices may go up the same as they did the last time this happened under Clinton.  At the end of the day Obama will have helped put guns in the hands of more citizens.
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livewire

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2013, 07:45:39 PM »

At the end of the day Obama will have helped put guns in the hands of more citizens.

Oh, he's already done that.  Thank you, Mr. President!   ;D
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SidecarFlip

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2013, 07:48:37 PM »

The banks are starting gun control on their own now.  According to a post on Facebook the Bank of America is freezing the accounts of a gun manufactured (American Spirit Firearms) because it says it doesn't agree with it's business of making and selling guns.  Wonder what the rest of the story is.  This is pretty scary if it's true.  What's next?

I posted on here about Kelly MacMillan (MacMillan Arms, LTD) a while ago.  BoA pulled the same crap on him.  Interestingly, he'a big government supplier besides building custom stocks and bolt guns for long range hunting.

Kelly went and secured another line of credit and told BoA to kiss off.  I suspect Spirit will do the same.  That BoA stuff is a down the chain of command Obama directive, nothing more.

The arms busines is a very profitable and productive business as evidenced by december sales that surpassed any month ever recorded.  The only thing that Feinstein and Obama have done was invigorate an industry, the industry of weapon manufacture and most are made right here, unlike other hard goods.
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livewire

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2013, 07:54:19 PM »

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but there is something fishy with the stories surrounding the Sandy Hook shooting.  It would be interesting to know the truth.

That is NOT an AR-15 being cleared in the trunk of Adam Lanza's car. 

No one has said what type of shell casings were found in the school.

No one knows how many guns were ACTUALLY found.  The clip shows an NBC report saying there were now FOUR handguns found inside the school, and there were only handguns taken inside the school, and his "assault style weapon" was LEFT IN THE CAR.

So what really happened?




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SidecarFlip

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2013, 07:57:27 PM »

I would like everyone on MT whether in favor of (firearms control) or against (more restrictive control of firearms) to carefully read Live's opening post and then read my signature line below this post. 

They explain everything........
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livewire

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2013, 07:58:04 PM »

BTW, I wanted to post that Sandy Hook story, so I did it here, rather than in the News section (where it belongs), for fear of offending someone that doesn't want to discuss such things in the thread about the shooting.  I hope everyone understands.
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SidecarFlip

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2013, 08:07:07 PM »

MN... Question.  Is the position of Medical Examiner in that county an elected position? 

That would explain the fact that he's an idiot. 

How can the Bushmaster be in the trunk and discovered by police (in the trunk) and the ME states the people were killed with rounds from the Bushmaster 223 (his words long gun).  It's impossible unless the gun is a drone and fired itself and got back in the trunk on it's own.

You can't chamber a 223 bottleneck cartridge in a 9mm straightwall chamber, not only won't it fit, it's about 2.5 times longer than a 9mm.

Will we ever know the truth?

I doubt it because the media is involved.
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SidecarFlip

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 08:09:15 PM »

Discussion certainly don't bother me, it's done happened.  I'm all about dissection now.

Something stinks in Denmark...... ;D
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Monroe Native

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 08:13:46 PM »

Here is an article in which a college professor is questioning the incident also....  and taking heat for it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2259104/Newtown-shooting-Conspiracy-theory-professor-says-Sandy-Hook-shooting-happened.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Here is his Blog so you can read his thoughts unfiltered.

http://memoryholeblog.com/2012/12/24/the-sandy-hook-massacre-unanswered-questions-and-missing-information/

I am bothered that weeks after the incident we really don't know the facts.  Why is that?
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I have learned that only two things are necessary to keep one's wife happy. First, let her think she's having her own way. And second, let her have it.
Lyndon B. Johnson

You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.
Lyndon B. Johnson

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 08:19:51 PM »

The piece by Major Caudill seems like he's trying to convince people of the merits of carrying a gun.  I'm not buying what he's trying to sell.  There is absolutely no reason for me to carry a gun around.  Ever.  I go to many, many places all over the U.S. and the world.  I always drive nice cars.  I sometimes carry decent amounts of cash.  I don't hang out in areas with gangs or where drug deals are going down.  I sometimes even argue with people, but NEVER would get into any type of confrontation where I am threatened with physical violence.  Nothing would be more inconvenient than lugging a dangerous firearm around, especially when I have zero reason to do so.

Protecting my home is different.  A pump shotgun will serve me just as we'll as any other gun in the extremely remote instance that an intruder gets into my home while I am there.

Do people really carry a gun around during day-to-day activities in Monroe or anywhere in Southeast Michigan outside of downtown Detroit ghetto areas?  Do you really think you need one to go to Twelve Oaks Mall and shop or out to a restaurant?  If you run out to Walgreens, even late at night, do you really think you need to have a gun with you?  It really seems kind of crazy-paranoid to me. 
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