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Brian Beneteau

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #780 on: February 01, 2013, 08:59:16 AM »

Mother Jones claims in one fact that "no one knows the exact number of guns in America" and then in another cites specific states' gun ownership numbers! Yeah, totally unbiased, lol!
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Professor H

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #781 on: February 01, 2013, 09:44:21 AM »

Just gonna ignore the CDC, UN, and PWC?

M'kay.... Carry on talking to yourselves.
Nope just someones biased use of those stats...

Don't have all the time to fact check your fact checker but I found this conflicting...

For instance #2 references pediatric CDC citations in the chart, and go by population ratios to make the "Stats" look more intimidating...   
None of the data showed how many guns are held by criminals?

Quote
Gun death rates are generally lower in states [7] with restrictions such as assault-weapons bans or safe-storage requirements. 

That's like saying criminals generally don't rob poor people...  means nothing but argumentatively tries to establish a statistical point.

Like I said you can twist data to make it say what you want, just don't pass it off as mythbusting "Facts"...

Montana and Wyoming are dangerous States to live in according to your chart...   LOL!   
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livewire

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #782 on: February 01, 2013, 09:46:09 AM »

Mother Jones?  Seriously?  Monique, they may SAY they got their "facts" from the CDC, or the UN (real trustworthy source, there), but they don't have any supporting information, like time frames for the murders, and gun ownership rates... They say they don't know the number of guns out there, but they have gun ownership rates for each state?  Their data conflicts with their own data.  It makes no sense.

I will believe the FBI Crime Statistics before I will believe Mother Jones.


I won't bother going over each and every "myth" listed, because they have all been discussed before.  But I will mention that violent crime, as a whole, has gone DOWN 15.5% in the last ten years in the united states, while gun ownership is skyrocketing.  That includes ALL forms of violent crime, INCLUDING HOMICIDE WITH A FIREARM.

If you want to micro-analyze each state or city, that's fine... let's do that.  I will be HAPPY to go toe to toe with anyone on this.  But you don't get to pick and choose a few select states.  Looking at the FBI Uniform Crime Report, I can't see any correlation with the chart that you posted, Monique, from Mother Jones... It has no dates on it.  Is that annual data?  Ten year data?  Monthly?  Which year?  Which month? 

Here are some ACTUAL facts to chew on, ALONG with a link to the FBI data to back it up:




http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime



Annual murder WITH A FIREARM totals are as follows:

2007: 10,129
2008:   9,528
2009:   9,199
2010:   8,874
2011:   8,583

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8








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Monroe Native

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #783 on: February 01, 2013, 10:11:45 AM »

Quote
The Newtown Board of Education wants more armed police officers in the towns four elementary schools after the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary last month.

Last night, they decided to ask the town to approve the request to include one additional full-time Newtown police at each of the elementary schools in next year's budget.

Today, members of the board will be meeting with state and federal officials about obtaining additional funding for security.

“Our parents are demanding of us that things are made safe and secure and certain measures are put in place,” Chairwoman Debbie Leidlein said. “So we’re being very thoughtful.”


http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Newtown-Votes-for-Armed-School-Officers-189320221.html?dr

Wow.   Seems like everyone is thinking armed people in schools is the solution.  I guess it is so crazy it worked in Georgia. 

Is someone going to apologize to the NRA for saying their proposal was stupid?
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Baggins

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #784 on: February 01, 2013, 10:17:04 AM »

Being outnumbered by women has been a lifelong fantasy of mine.......wish it had happened earlier in life.


Not when it's being a load of Misandry...:P
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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #785 on: February 01, 2013, 10:49:12 AM »

Just gonna ignore the CDC, UN, and PWC?

Obviously biased entities irrelevant to any discussion are quite easily dismissed and fully ignorable.
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excelsior

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #786 on: February 01, 2013, 10:58:21 AM »

Hmmm, some of these pro-gun "truths" and mantras have been fact checked. From MotherJones:


Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher [6] than those with the lowest gun ownership rates. Also, gun death rates tend to be higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership. Gun death rates are generally lower in states [7] with restrictions such as assault-weapons bans or safe-storage requirements.


Sources: Pediatrics [8], Centers for Disease Control and Prevention [9]


FBI Criminal Justice Information Services Division numbers state the following:

Total murders by firearm (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20)

Montana - 7
Wyoming  - 11
Massachusetts - 122
District of Columbia -77

The 2010 US Census data show the following population for these states/district:

Montana - 989,415
Wyoming  - 563,626
Massachusetts - 6,547,629
District of Columbia - 601,723

These US government numbers would result in the following gun murders per 100,000:

Montana - 0.71
Wyoming  - 1.95
Massachusetts - 1.86
District of Columbia - 12.8

Where is the correlation between high rate of gun murders and high rate of gun ownership?

Here is a study of United States Homicide Rate vs Gun Ownership by State:



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SidecarFlip

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #787 on: February 01, 2013, 11:05:15 AM »

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Newtown-Votes-for-Armed-School-Officers-189320221.html?dr

Wow.   Seems like everyone is thinking armed people in schools is the solution.  I guess it is so crazy it worked in Georgia. 

Is someone going to apologize to the NRA for saying their proposal was stupid?


Of course not.  BTW, a rural school district in NW Ohio approved arming it's janitors (that have CCW's) to carry in the school.  Not a bad idea.
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Baggins

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #788 on: February 01, 2013, 11:13:41 AM »

FBI Criminal Justice Information Services Division numbers state the following:

Total murders by firearm (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20)

Montana - 7
Wyoming  - 11
Massachusetts - 122
District of Columbia -77

The 2010 US Census data show the following population for these states/district:

Montana - 989,415
Wyoming  - 563,626
Massachusetts - 6,547,629
District of Columbia - 601,723

These US government numbers would result in the following gun murders per 100,000:

Montana - 0.71
Wyoming  - 1.95
Massachusetts - 1.86
District of Columbia - 12.8

Where is the correlation between high rate of gun murders and high rate of gun ownership?

Here is a study of United States Homicide Rate vs Gun Ownership by State:




You've shown solid facts, that express what I've been saying for the last month...

As for Monique's sources...
Quote
Sources: Pediatrics [8], Centers for Disease Control and Prevention [9]


Huh...?  I'm not quite getting where and what you're trying to prove with irrelevant sources...Which by the way are wrong!
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Monroe Native

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #789 on: February 01, 2013, 11:14:48 AM »

Once again in the hands of a gifted statistician you can "make" the numbers say anything you want.

Who to believe?
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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #790 on: February 01, 2013, 11:18:39 AM »

Whats needed is 'less government' and more citizen responsibility, gee, I said that paqes ago.

That won't happen because so many are on entitlement and need the daily arse wiping.......

At least the gun fiasco involves the entitlement crowds too.  How do you protect yourself from perps in the inner city that want your entitlement free cheese for themselves?  Why a firearm of course....duh.

Whats going to transpire in the end is some more asinine gun control legislation that won't be enforced because it takes more staffing and the government can't afford more bodies, they are already strung out because poiticians never go backward (take pay cuts and less perks).  They have to advance financially....always.

Probably levied taxes on all aspects of gun ownership, that tax will go to the government coffers to help with distribution of 'free cheese'.  The free cheese has to be paid for because nothing is free here, even though the entitlement crowd 'thinks' it's free, if they can think and thats debatable.  Why think when you can receive without thinking......

We'll continue plodding along with a President who wants to be a dictator, ineffective and dysfunctional politicians and the usual ho-hum.  However, this time (with my help and thousands of others), this 'bump' will be remembered at election time.

My take is don't make promises and then do what you darn well want to (after you get elected).  I want some meaningful action and no promises that turn into lies.

Sometimes I think all politicians are related to Pinochhio.
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Monroe Native

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #791 on: February 01, 2013, 11:44:25 AM »

How do you protect yourself from perps in the inner city that want your entitlement free cheese for themselves?  Why a firearm of course....duh.

Homeland Security recommends Scissors!

LOL!
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I have learned that only two things are necessary to keep one's wife happy. First, let her think she's having her own way. And second, let her have it.
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You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.
Lyndon B. Johnson

excelsior

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #792 on: February 01, 2013, 01:54:28 PM »

You've shown solid facts, that express what I've been saying for the last month...

As for Monique's sources...
Huh...?  I'm not quite getting where and what you're trying to prove with irrelevant sources...Which by the way are wrong!

I think that you can spot an advocate for gun control when they cite total gun deaths.   These gun death numbers include justified self defense, justified deadly force by police, accidental shootings, suicides and etc.   These folks have an agenda and they attempt to blur the numbers between homicides and deaths.
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Monroe Native

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #793 on: February 01, 2013, 03:42:20 PM »

I still don't understand why someone would support an agenda to disarm a populace.

Do they support genocide, and want to remove the barriers from having it happen here?



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I have learned that only two things are necessary to keep one's wife happy. First, let her think she's having her own way. And second, let her have it.
Lyndon B. Johnson

You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.
Lyndon B. Johnson

blue2

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Re: Do we need more gun control?
« Reply #794 on: February 01, 2013, 04:48:48 PM »

Maybe someone already reported this episode.
ATLANTA (AP) — A student opened fire at his middle school Thursday afternoon, wounding a 14-year-old in the neck before an armed officer working at the school was able to get the gun away, police said..
Piers Morgan reported the armed officer at the school was unable to stop him.  What a clown.
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